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Re: Is God Flawed??? posted 21 Aug 2008, 17:08 by Divine Virus, Commoner

[quote="zephyr":sk3ftim0]I have seen this topic discussed in other forums and am interested in anybody's opinion on this. I guess the question really is if there is/are a god/gods/entity (or whatever) can they be perfectly good or is there some inherent 'badness' to them. I don't really have a good way of what I'm trying to ask but Ill try. There are two possibilities, both which undermine the idea of God as flawless. For if he/she/it created evil (again, he created free will, but evil had to exist as a choice before that choice could even be made), then that undermines the notion of a perfectly good being. The other possibility is that he did not create evil, but if he didn't then evil exists as a abstract ideal that supercedes even God.[/quote:sk3ftim0] This line of thinking has been going back and forth for 1800 years :P So here is an old early Christian line of thought on the matter (I am not Christian, but it applies to any conception of God insofar as he is a) omnipotent, b) omniscient, c) omnibenelovent, and d) atemporal). I am just going from memory, and thus it will be a bit rough, some movements of the argument rough, or missing. If you feel like criticizing I will find my notes and fill in any blanks. God is all good. He is literally the definition and standard of good. He is the Good, in the platonic sense. As such, all things are only good insofar as they participate in God. God's will is providence, and providence is the principle of all things and therefore all things are good insofar as they participate in their principle. By looking to their principle, all things participate in God, and thus all things are good. Unless they choose not participate in their function, and forget their principle. Since God is all good, and is the principle and pattern for all things, evil is no thing. Evil is nothing. To move away from one's principle is to become participate less in God, and thus less real. By being less real, you are being Evil. The move away from God is Evil, naught else is. Personally, I don't believe in the existence of good and evil except as soft concepts within the human mind. Therefore the problem of God creating evil isn't a problem for me because evil doesn't exist :P. As to the notion that everything has to be flawed [quote:sk3ftim0]So is God flawed? Is this like saying that everything is flawed, and that nothing is perfect? Yes to both questions. I hate to delve again into my perfection rant, but perfecton, by definition, is he absence of flaw.[/quote:sk3ftim0] I do not agree with this definition, however I cannot venture a more complete one so I will accept it for the purpose of this discussion. [quote:sk3ftim0]Given that flaw is a matter of opinion, like beauty is, there will always be conflict to whether something is flawed.[/quote:sk3ftim0] Please note that this implies that there is no objective truth in the universe, only subjective opinion. [quote:sk3ftim0]Unless complete unanimity is decided, perfection cannot exsist. Perfection, also by definition, is unattainable. we cannot have perfection for the same reason that someone will always disagree, even if just for the sake of disagreeing. and no, we can't have a split decision on perfection, becausethis like saying there can be a difference in fact. (There really shouldn't be any such thing as fact either, but I must restrain myself from delveing into ANOTHER notion of mine right now, or I will never post this in this lifetime.) [/quote:sk3ftim0] This only means that there cannot be a universal agreement on what is perfect. Individuals can still perceive something to be perfect, to be without flaw. Likewise, by the previous quote, it is only in YOUR mind that unanimity is required for perfection, because it is you perceive the lack of unanimity to be a flaw, and flaws are entirely subjective. Unfortunately, this also creates a snag in the argument. I would say that the flaw of lack of unanimity just exists in your mind, and thus isn't real, and thus does not enforce necessity upon God, or the Universe. You would say that all subjective opinion enforces necessity upon God and the Universe in matters of perfection. Neither point of view can be proven to be true or false based on the condition of this discussion. Perhaps a prolonged discussion could, but that is neither here nor now. [quote:sk3ftim0]Given that perfection is unattainable, this means that everything is flawed, and that God is indeed flawed.[/quote:sk3ftim0] Alternatively, it could mean that everything is perfect, because nothing is flawed, because flaws are not real outside of the human mind. As such, God would only be flawed within the scope of human perception, or rather the human mind is not capable of grasping the perfection of God. Which certainly doesn't mean that God isn't perfect. [quote:sk3ftim0]However, this is not such a bad thing. If, on the hypothetical, perfection were attainable, everything would have to be perfect, and God would have to be perfect (seeing as how God is everything, and everything is connected). If everything were perfect, opinion could not exsist, and therefore thought could not exsist.[/quote:sk3ftim0] I am not sure how you reached the conclusion that if everything was perfect, opinion and thought couldn't exist. Trying to retrace to movements of your argument, I suppose you mean that "if everything is perfect, then nothing is flawed. There is only one way for nothing to be flawed, one way to be perfect. Therefore all things are locked into a state of perfection, and no movement is possible, because any movement would bring one away from perfection. And because everything is perfect, everyone knows everything is perfect, and thus there could be no debate, no subjective matters, and without subjectivity, no opinion is possible, and thus no thought is possible." I hope I followed that right. The assumptions contained therein is that perfection has only one path, there is only one way for everything to be perfect. That it is not possible for multiple situation to all be without flaw, and thus all be perfect. It has a lot of other assumptions, but the battery is dying in my laptop, so I must sign off. view post

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