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Inchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... posted 01 Oct 2006, 19:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

After finishing TTT, one thing is obvious - for whatever reason the Inchoroi and sorcerers (at least some) have the same goal - to save themselves from being damned. The evidence for this is in the glossary for TTT. Shaeonanra, the grandmaster of the defunct Mangaecca School discovered the means by which sorcers could save themselves. It doesn't mention exactly *what* he discovered, but if you put the pieces together, it's obvious that they discovered what the Inchoroi already knew - by killing all life, one could seal the the world from the Outside. Thus the Mangaecca have a common goal with the Inchoroi and subsequently fold themsevles into the Inchoroi fold, calling themselves The Consult. Some questions. Where is Shaeonanra now? What is his place in The Consult? The glossary mentions that he never died, making him about 3,000 years old. view post


Re: Inchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... posted 02 Oct 2006, 00:10 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":3l3g4cko].................. Some questions. Where is Shaeonanra now? What is his place in The Consult? The glossary mentions that he never died, making him about 3,000 years old.[/quote:3l3g4cko] Achamian also mentioned him in the novel proper, in context of the present. It is extremely likely that he is still a Consult director. view post


Re: Inchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... posted 02 Oct 2006, 01:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="anor277":1lzwtwqi] Achamian also mentioned him in the novel proper....[/quote:1lzwtwqi] Do you remember where this was or which book? I'd like to reread that part. view post


posted 02 Oct 2006, 09:10 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

He's one of the Old Names, the original members of the Consult who have survivied until present day. And probably completely insane in a very scary way. view post


posted 02 Oct 2006, 14:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Are you saying a person can be insane in a very non scary way? Any thoughts on where he might be killing time til the Second Apocalypse, personally I think hes probably out somewhere in the Three Seas causing trouble but I suppose its equally possible hes in the North looking for the Dunyain? view post


posted 02 Oct 2006, 16:10 by Harrol, Moderator

Actually there are only two old names Aurang and Auxang. Forgive my spelling I do not have the books with me. The term old name is made in refence to the last of the Inchoroi. view post


posted 02 Oct 2006, 16:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I knew I forgot to say something in my post, Harrol is correct only Inchoroi are called Old Names, yes he is a senior member of the Consult but he is not of the Old Names. view post


posted 02 Oct 2006, 19:10 by White Lord, Subdidact

What exactly makes you think that the term 'Old Name' applies only to the Inchoroi? If you check the Glossary, it says that it is a term used for all the [i:1cv4tzv1]original[/i:1cv4tzv1] members of the Consult. And what is the Consult? According to that same Glossary, it is a cabal of magi and generals, which includes the Inchoroi, but also Mekeritrig, Shaeonanra and possibly many others. After all, there [i:1cv4tzv1]was[/i:1cv4tzv1] no Consult before the Mangaecca became [i:1cv4tzv1]it[/i:1cv4tzv1], so it makes no sense to use the term only for the Inchoroi. view post


posted 02 Oct 2006, 19:10 by Harrol, Moderator

White Lord why must you always be right. :evil: view post


posted 06 Oct 2006, 17:10 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

WL is most definetly right. Generally there ends up being alot of confusion when referring to the Inchori and the Consult. I believe there is a thread either in this section or the Q&A where we had a rather lengthy debate over the concept of Damnation and the motivations of the Consult. I'm really too lazy to look for it right now while I'm at work though. view post


posted 06 Oct 2006, 18:10 by Harrol, Moderator

Yes I had confused myself on what an old name was. It does appear at least for now that the Inchoroi are the first amongst equals in the consult. view post


posted 06 Oct 2006, 18:10 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="Harrol":1e17tnrk]Yes I had confused myself on what an old name was. It does appear at least for now that the Inchoroi are the first amongst equals in the consult.[/quote:1e17tnrk] Thats how I see it as well, after all their are only two of them left and it was the human Consult that was instrumental in resurrecting the Tekne to the degree it has. The Inchoroi themselves had fallen quite far in their level of knowledge between their arrival and that point in time. view post


posted 06 Oct 2006, 19:10 by Harrol, Moderator

It does seem that these two Inchoroi are limited in their knowledge. Maybe there were societies amongst the Inchoroi that performed different functions. Hence a possible answer for forgotten knowledge. view post


posted 07 Oct 2006, 00:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

So does anyone know where Shaeonanra is mentioned? And if anyone has the link on the nature of damnation, that'd be sweet! view post


posted 08 Oct 2006, 14:10 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":38dwxmhu]So does anyone know where Shaeonanra is mentioned? And if anyone has the link on the nature of damnation, that'd be sweet![/quote:38dwxmhu] Well, Shaeonanra (or Shauriatas) is mentioned in the Glossary at the end of TTT, and also, [i:38dwxmhu]en passant[/i:38dwxmhu], in the story proper. There you can read all about him [b:38dwxmhu]re[/b:38dwxmhu]descovering a means of avoiding damnation by soul-trapping sorceries. About the Damnation issue, well I know there are a couple of posts here where Scott has a bit to say on the issue, but it's also been dealt with in the books, so that you could easily get the picture from there as well. Basically, if your actions are displeasing to the Gods, as soon as you die (i.e. your soul takes the road to the Outside) you are liable to spend an eternity of torture as a guest of any one God (or demon) in the Outside. Obviously, if you have good reasons to believe this is what will happen to you, you will do your best to avoid your soul going to the Outside in the first place. This is what Shauriatas did, and all other Consult members do the same: they use Tekne-made shells to transfer their souls to, so they avoid passage to the Outside. Since this is a bit risky (you never know when someone will kill you, without you having time to do soul transfer), they decided to act on knowledge the Inchoroi obtained during their researches on the Outside: by removing a sufficient number of souled creatures (in this case Men and Nonmen) from the world, they would make the Gods powerless to affect Earwa, so even if they did die, the only thing that could happen to them would be Oblivion, not Damnation. This is basically what drives the Consult and what caused the Apocalypse. As to what Shauriatas is doing right now, I guess he is still busily sniffing around the Ark (it is said he went mad studying it) looking to unearth new secrets. If I'm not mistaken he's mentioned as one of the principal culprits for everything the Consult has been able to rediscover about the Tekne. view post


posted 08 Oct 2006, 14:10 by White Lord, Subdidact

Here is something by Scott on the issue of Damnation: [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2ttiwrhr]They [the Scylvendi] don't believe they have any afterlife. You have to remember too, that just as most religious people have no consistent, systematic understanding of 'noumenal world' that brackets the mundane, neither do the Scylvendi, nor the Inrithi, though the latter have many scholarly accounts of what awaits them. Given this overarching indeterminacy, there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies. Certain acts attract the interest of certain agencies. One can, and most Inrithi do, plead to redeemed ancestors to intercede on their behalf, but most give themselves over to some God. Doing so, however, puts their souls entirely into play, and the more sketchy one's life is, the more liable one is to be 'poached' by the demonic, and to live out eternity in everlasting torment. I could go on, but most of all this will be covered in the encyclopaedic glossary in TTT.[/quote:2ttiwrhr] view post


posted 08 Oct 2006, 22:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Thanks White Lord, for both those posts! The second post with Scott's words was especially enlightening, specifically the bit about "certain acts" attracting the attention of outside agencies. I guess one such act is the act of sorcery - we know certain kinds of socery (Daimos) *definitely* attracts unwanted attention. But it would seem *any* kind of sorcery results in damnation, though no mention is made of what happens to non-Daimotic sorcerers. What is the nature of their damnation? This also begs the question of what the Inchoroi were doing to attract the attention of Outside agencies that would cause the Inchoroi people to want to seal themsevles away. view post


posted 09 Oct 2006, 00:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I think the damnation for sorcerers is all the same but Daimotic sorcerers just suffer much much worse because of the binding and use of demons from the Outside, the very Demons they binded will be the demons who torture them for eternity. view post


posted 09 Oct 2006, 01:10 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":3cfl6ht8]Thanks White Lord, for both those posts! The second post with Scott's words was especially enlightening, specifically the bit about "certain acts" attracting the attention of outside agencies.[/quote:3cfl6ht8] No problem... always glad to be of help... :) [quote="Incu-Pacifico":3cfl6ht8]I guess one such act is the act of sorcery - we know certain kinds of socery (Daimos) *definitely* attracts unwanted attention. But it would seem *any* kind of sorcery results in damnation, though no mention is made of what happens to non-Daimotic sorcerers. What is the nature of their damnation?[/quote:3cfl6ht8] You see, I'm not so sure that quite [i:3cfl6ht8]any[/i:3cfl6ht8] use of sorcery results in Damnation. This is simply what most people have thought ever since the Chronicle of the Tusk was composed. What counts, in my opinion, are the actions sorcerers commit [i:3cfl6ht8]after[/i:3cfl6ht8] they convince themselves they are damned [i:3cfl6ht8]a priori[/i:3cfl6ht8]. If you believe yourself damned, and that you will suffer for all eternity after you die, no matter what you do, for the simple reason that you're a practicing sorcerer, that certainly won't work towards bringing out your better self... :) We must also consider that the Nonmen didn't hold this belief, and also that Kellhus rescinded the Tusk law regarding sorcery (and I think he was right in this, divine inspiration or no...). [quote="Incu-Pacifico":3cfl6ht8]This also begs the question of what the Inchoroi were doing to attract the attention of Outside agencies that would cause the Inchoroi people to want to seal themsevles away.[/quote:3cfl6ht8] Well, they were being true to their nature, (or what they think to be their nature), something of which you have seen throughout the books. Ultimately Damnation or Redemption are dictated by people's [i:3cfl6ht8]actions[/i:3cfl6ht8], and the Inchoroi sealed their fate by doing "what they must" to quote Aurang... :) view post


posted 09 Oct 2006, 07:10 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

To add to White Lord's comments, the Fanim believe that the Cisharum aren't damned, but holy. Sorcery is condemned by the Tusk, but it is a collection of religious documents written by men, although possibly be men with some understanding of Agencies of the Outside (or maybe not) and added two and commented on, not the least by Inrithas and Kelhus. Even previous to Kelhus, the condemnation of sorcery by the Tusk has been challenged by scholars in the Three Seas ([i:1x9sxmui]In Defence of Sorcery [/i:1x9sxmui]is mentioned several times.) Our view is somewhat coloured by having most of the books's viewpoint characters raised in a culture that believes all sorcery is abominable and taking place mostly among the Inrithi. Even Akka is tormented by his damnation. Only Kelhus is detatched from considerations (with the possible exception of Conphas :wink: ). view post


posted 10 Oct 2006, 02:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Cynical Cat":22kv5we7]To add to White Lord's comments, the Fanim believe that the Cisharum aren't damned, but holy. [/quote:22kv5we7] Well the metaphysics of the Cishaurim is different from the other schools of sorcery...and I believe there was a mention of some questioning whether Cishaurim was actually sorcery at all. So perhaps the nature of the Pshuke protects its practitioners from getting that unwanted attention? [quote:22kv5we7] Sorcery is condemned by the Tusk, but it is a collection of religious documents written by men, although possibly be men with some understanding of Agencies of the Outside (or maybe not) and added two and commented on, not the least by Inrithas and Kelhus. Even previous to Kelhus, the condemnation of sorcery by the Tusk has been challenged by scholars in the Three Seas ([i:22kv5we7]In Defence of Sorcery [/i:22kv5we7]is mentioned several times.) [/quote:22kv5we7] I'd forgotten about the multiple mentions of "In Defence of Sorcery". I'll need to review what was said in those passages. There's probably some key insights there... [quote:22kv5we7] Our view is somewhat coloured by having most of the books's viewpoint characters raised in a culture that believes all sorcery is abominable and taking place mostly among the Inrithi. Even Akka is tormented by his damnation. Only Kelhus is detatched from considerations (with the possible exception of Conphas :wink: ).[/quote:22kv5we7] IMO, most of the sorcerers don't seem tormented by damnation so much as resolved to it. It seems kind of a strange position to take. view post


posted 10 Oct 2006, 12:10 by Harrol, Moderator

I believe the Mandate Schoolmen have a saying we give up our souls to gain the world. They do seem to readily accept damnation. view post


posted 11 Oct 2006, 00:10 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":3r5ji5kh] Well the metaphysics of the Cishaurim is different from the other schools of sorcery...and I believe there was a mention of some questioning whether Cishaurim was actually sorcery at all. So perhaps the nature of the Pshuke protects its practitioners from getting that unwanted attention? [/quote:3r5ji5kh] Kelhus gives us our best explanation on why the Pshuke is different than other forms of sorcery. It is still sorcery, merely undistinguishable from the natural world. Most tellingly, it is still affected by chorae. The attitudes of the Cishaurim might score them some points with the Outside or they might not. We don't know. As for the Mandate, they are the defenders of the world against extermination. They have not only power, but a higher purpose and their saying reflects that. Which, of course, leads to Akka's friend's speculation that they who sacrifice their very souls for the opportunity to defend the world and expect only damnation are the holiest of men. view post


posted 11 Oct 2006, 12:10 by Harrol, Moderator

Good point CC I think that is very true. view post


posted 12 Oct 2006, 00:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Cynical Cat":j2180b8w] Kelhus gives us our best explanation on why the Pshuke is different than other forms of sorcery. It is still sorcery, merely undistinguishable from the natural world. Most tellingly, it is still affected by chorae. The attitudes of the Cishaurim might score them some points with the Outside or they might not. We don't know. [/quote:j2180b8w] I remember mention being made that Pshuke was more emotion-based than the Anagogic socery (logic based). Also, it didn't leave a "mark" and was invisible to the logic-based Anagogic schools. As you said though, chorae still affect them. Hmmm...I think there's a clue there somewhere...if only we could figure it out. :) Perhaps it has something to do with logic going against the "natural flow"? [quote:j2180b8w] As for the Mandate, they are the defenders of the world against extermination. They have not only power, but a higher purpose and their saying reflects that. Which, of course, leads to Akka's friend's speculation that they who sacrifice their very souls for the opportunity to defend the world and expect only damnation are the holiest of men.[/quote:j2180b8w] Yes, this is exactly right. For the Mandate. However, I don't think it's true for the other schools. They're not serving a higher cause, though many still seem to feel condemned to damnation (see, Iyokus's conversation with the demon). view post


posted 12 Oct 2006, 04:10 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":1sbugoin] I remember mention being made that Pshuke was more emotion-based than the Anagogic socery (logic based). Also, it didn't leave a "mark" and was invisible to the logic-based Anagogic schools. As you said though, chorae still affect them. Hmmm...I think there's a clue there somewhere...if only we could figure it out. :) Perhaps it has something to do with logic going against the "natural flow"? [/quote:1sbugoin] Well, if Kelhus is correct, its the intuitive, emotional nature of the sorcery that is the reason they don't have a mark. They blind themselves so they have distractions in their attempts to percieve the onta. They have a good "feel" for how the onta should be because of their altered perception and the intuitive nature of their magic, so their workings fit in with the natural world better and thus leave no mark. Of course, their are advantages to having a systematic, intellectual understanding of your practice which is why Anagogic and Gnostic sorcery is more powerful and versatile. [quote:1sbugoin] Yes, this is exactly right. For the Mandate. However, I don't think it's true for the other schools. They're not serving a higher cause, though many still seem to feel condemned to damnation (see, Iyokus's conversation with the demon).[/quote:1sbugoin] What's revealing about Iyokus's conversation is that he has definitely gotten himself some negative attention from the Outside, but wasn't necessarily damned before that point. As for the Scarlett Spires, I doubt their naked and ruthless power lust scores them points with anything benevolent on the Outside. view post


posted 12 Oct 2006, 11:10 by Harrol, Moderator

This raises a good point how does the outside veiw sorcery and evil in Earwa. I believe the whole damnation toward sorcerers is man made as a control to check sorcerous powers. view post


posted 12 Oct 2006, 23:10 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Harrol":ulc9jn8x]This raises a good point how does the outside veiw sorcery and evil in Earwa. I believe the whole damnation toward sorcerers is man made as a control to check sorcerous powers.[/quote:ulc9jn8x] The demons (and arguably the Gods) are vulnerable to chorae (well at least Iyokus' demon on top of Shimeh sensed a chorae as an absence). Maybe they are jealous of the use of sorcery, that is they don't tolerate a human sorceror practising something that they believe is their special preserve; hence damnation in the afterlife for sorcerors who infringe divine prerogatives, who ape the voice of God. But, as you say, condemnation of sorcery might well be a social construct. How easy can it be to get the laity to worship an unseen divine force when certain mortals manifestly exercise divine power. For the Fanim it is no problem, Cishaurim sorcery is divinely sanctioned, but for the 1000 temples there is no such sanction. Mind you I found it pretty funny when Kellhus relaxed Shrial strictures against sorcery; who elected him God? (I know, the rest of the Three Seas did.) view post


posted 13 Oct 2006, 04:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="anor277":usdlthuf] The demons (and arguably the Gods) are vulnerable to chorae (well at least Iyokus' demon on top of Shimeh sensed a chorae as an absence). [/quote:usdlthuf] I believe the Demons and Gods are one in the same -- they are all simply outside agencies. Whether something is a demon or a god simply depends on your perspective. For example, the Fanim consider the Hundred Gods to all be Demons. view post


posted 13 Oct 2006, 06:10 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":o0k28ceb][quote="anor277":o0k28ceb] The demons (and arguably the Gods) are vulnerable to chorae (well at least Iyokus' demon on top of Shimeh sensed a chorae as an absence). [/quote:o0k28ceb] I believe the Demons and Gods are one in the same -- they are all simply outside agencies. Whether something is a demon or a god simply depends on your perspective. For example, the Fanim consider the Hundred Gods to all be Demons.[/quote:o0k28ceb] I think the Inchoroi share your opinion; Aurang referred to the "sulfurous godlings" who would damn him to perdition. Whether there is a God beyond that (the God for whom Fane was the prophet for instance) is another matter. view post


posted 13 Oct 2006, 10:10 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

The Nonmen refer to gods and demons as Agencies, a practice retained by Gnostic magicians for obvious reasons. As we only have knowledge of one particularily kind of Agency we are, like the inhabitants of the Three Seas, reduced to trying to deduce the will of the gods with insufficient evidence. :wink: As for Chorae and demons, the demons didn't merely sense the absence of a chorae, they exploded into burning salt when struck by a chorae arrow ("an absence at the end of a stick"). The Outside doesn't much seem to like chorae either. The Tears of God may really piss off God. :D view post


posted 14 Oct 2006, 18:10 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

One of the biggest things to remember, and WL pointed this out in his earlier post, is to remember that there is a distinction between the "real" mechanics (most of which Scott will never reveal to us :) ) and what people think is going on. Like WL I don't think sorcerors are damned by default, that is merely the belief that has been held by most humans since the Tusk was written. view post


posted 15 Oct 2006, 05:10 by Harrol, Moderator

Yes the damnation part is merely a societal (sp) control to keep the sorcerers in check. If not they would dominate human society. view post


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