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Thoughts on Kellhus uniting Schools posted 20 Oct 2006, 00:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

With the Schools weakened greatly what are your ideas about whats next for them. I personally think that Kellhus will unite the Schools into one Super School. Not only does Kellhus have enough power to do this he also has good reason to do it, by uniting the Schools animosity and war between Schools would cease to exist and help focus on a common enemy(The Consult). view post


Re: Thoughts on Kellhus uniting Schools posted 20 Oct 2006, 00:10 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":2jwbqabs]With the Schools weakened greatly what are your ideas about whats next for them. I personally think that Kellhus will unite the Schools into one Super School. Not only does Kellhus have enough power to do this he also has good reason to do it, by uniting the Schools animosity and war between Schools would cease to exist and help focus on a common enemy(The Consult).[/quote:2jwbqabs] @WP, thanks for starting this here; I don't like spoilers and while Scott has lately been reluctant to answer questions in the Q & A threads, there is always the chance he might return and give us God's phone number. Anyway, as you say, Kellhus will very probably form a super-school for sorcerors. Sorcerors, the few, are much too valuable to serve as free agents, even when organized into schools their ambition is too dangerous. He has the Saik to draw on, and also the Mandate, which would be the nucleus of the new school. Neither school was much affected by the crusade that took Shimeh. Kellhus own studies in sorcery will no doubt continue. He no longer has Achamian, but he has the best of the Mandate to teach him (arguably more capable and more learned than his old teacher); given Kellhus record he might learn all they have to teach in months if not weeks. Of course, the Mandate might expect to bind him to their cause by the Seswatha ritual, but as Achamian warned earlier warned the Mandate, Kellhus "possesses" and would not be possessed. Of course, I assume that the school would be Gnostic. And of course Kellhus is now the only person in the Three Seas who really understands what sorcery is; new acolytes learning sorcery, with Dunyain input to some extent from Kellhus, would be formidable indeed. And they would be totally devoted to Kellhus. Of course, I've ignored the jealousy of the other schools, but of them, only the Mandate has the potential to challenge the Warrior Prophet. And I suspect Kellhus will flatter their vanity; he will appear as their prophesied saviour; the heir of Celmomas and Seswatha, incorruptible, invulnerable - warrior, prophet, sage, and sorceror, and as a bonus he is giving the sorcerors a "get out of gaol free card" with respect to damnation. So to conclude the Mandate will surrender the Gnosis not only to Kellhus, but also to Kellhus' future proteges. view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 00:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Do you really think that the Qourum members are better suited to teach Kellhus than Achamian is/was with Akka's new connection to Seswatha Im thinking he will be needing Akka at some point to help him. view post


Re: Thoughts on Kellhus uniting Schools posted 20 Oct 2006, 01:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Warrior-Poet":1jx2t6gu]With the Schools weakened greatly what are your ideas about whats next for them. I personally think that Kellhus will unite the Schools into one Super School. Not only does Kellhus have enough power to do this he also has good reason to do it, by uniting the Schools animosity and war between Schools would cease to exist and help focus on a common enemy(The Consult).[/quote:1jx2t6gu] Really, only the Red Spires were weakened. The other schools weren't really affected by the Holy War since they didn't commit anything to it. Regardless unification is definitely possible and would make sense depending on how Kellus approaches battling the Consult. However Bakker hasn't given any hints that this will happen. view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 02:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote:3748cmcc]Really, only the Red Spires were weakened[/quote:3748cmcc] I hope you mean Scarlet Spires. The Saik also took a minor loss with the Grandmaster dead and quite a few Sorcs of Rank from the Saik. When I say weakened Im not just talking about losses of actual sorcerers Im talking about weakened power wise. The Myunsai as mercenaries will likely not even have a role in the Kellhus' new Three Seas. view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 02:10 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":cg7sfrcu]Do you really think that the Qourum members are better suited to teach Kellhus than Achamian is/was with Akka's new connection to Seswatha Im thinking he will be needing Akka at some point to help him.[/quote:cg7sfrcu] I know that Achamian at one point considered himself to be the leader of the Mandate, however, he did remain a field agent; he was despised by the leader of the Scarlet Spires (I can't recall his name at the moment) for that reason. Perhaps, had Achamian stayed with his school, he might have moved up in rank and knowledge. Nevertheless, the present members of the mandate quorum must dwarf him in sorcerous ability and knowledge of the arcana; there is also quite probably an extensive library in the Mandate stronghold (I forget the name at the moment, and maybe Gnostic sorcery is far too valuable a commodity to put into print or allow to remain in print). I know that Achamian was a good teacher, a vocation not to be despised, however, a brilliant student may make up for the teacher's shortcomings, and I think that Kellhus will winkle out all that the quorum can teach him. As to Achamian's connection to Seswatha, a lot has been said about it on these boards. I don't think there is much evidence of this yet in the novels. All the members of the mandate had intense dreams; we were witness to some of them because they were shared. view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 02:10 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":3vxth7q7][quote:3vxth7q7]Really, only the Red Spires were weakened[/quote:3vxth7q7] I hope you mean Scarlet Spires. The Saik also took a minor loss with the Grandmaster dead and quite a few Sorcs of Rank from the Saik. When I say weakened Im not just talking about losses of actual sorcerers Im talking about weakened power wise. The Myunsai as mercenaries will likely not even have a role in the Kellhus' new Three Seas.[/quote:3vxth7q7] Just wanted to add that if Kellhus is (reasonably) the de fact ruler of the Three Seas, all that is important to him is sorcerous ability. He could command all of the Few to serve him; it matters little whether they were former members of the Myunsai, the Saik, or even the Cishaurim (if there are any of them left - the Scarlet Spires may have succeeded in their war aim but at such a cost). Kellhus might simply dissolve the Schools except the Mandate, and use the Mandate as a nucleus of a new school devoted to him. view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 02:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote:37tif5nl]As to Achamian's connection to Seswatha, a lot has been said about it on these boards. I don't think there is much evidence of this yet in the novels. All the members of the mandate had intense dreams; we were witness to some of them because they were shared.[/quote:37tif5nl] I was less talking about the intensity of the dreams and was more talking about the change of events and nature of the Dreams, also Akka's annihalation of the SS imprisoning him and his overall attitude has changed drastically. It seems to me that if anyone is going to be the Seswatha incarnate it will be Akka. However if the connection exists the knowledge Akka could obtain would be immensely useful to Kellhus view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 02:10 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":2g4abdtj][quote:2g4abdtj]As to Achamian's connection to Seswatha, a lot has been said about it on these boards. I don't think there is much evidence of this yet in the novels. All the members of the mandate had intense dreams; we were witness to some of them because they were shared.[/quote:2g4abdtj] I was less talking about the intensity of the dreams and was more talking about the change of events and nature of the Dreams, also Akka's annihalation of the SS imprisoning him and his overall attitude has changed drastically. It seems to me that if anyone is going to be the Seswatha incarnate it will be Akka. However if the connection exists the knowledge Akka could obtain would be immensely useful to Kellhus[/quote:2g4abdtj] I do acknowledge that Achamian could yet prove useful to Kellhus. But I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the other matter. When Achamian renounced the Mandate, he renounced Seswatha as much as he was able. Seswatha was no doubt a terrible old man, one who certainly put his aims before any individual (cf Xin. or Nau-Cayuti) or any moral imperative and one who had (rightly) earned A's condemnation. [i:2g4abdtj]edited for extra points[/i:2g4abdtj] view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 12:10 by Harrol, Moderator

Another point to add is that Kellhus will be teaching women how to perform sorcery. i believe that was eluded to by all that he told Esmi. Think of it the Mandate and the Scarlet Spires completely behind him along with the Thousand Temples which also has members that are the few. Then you throw in a heavy campaign to recruit throughout the Three Seas and whamo he has more that tripled the number of sorcerers. Then you throw in the untapped potential of the female sorcrers and boy the consult lookout cause they will be fighting legions of gnostic sorcerers. view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 17:10 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

[quote="anor277":1ca7k5f9]I do acknowledge that Achamian could yet prove useful to Kellhus. But I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the other matter. When Achamian renounced the Mandate, he renounced Seswatha as much as he was able. Seswatha was no doubt a terrible old man, one who certainly put his aims before any individual (cf Xin. or Nau-Cayuti) or any moral imperative and one who had (rightly) earned A's condemnation. [i:1ca7k5f9]edited for extra points[/i:1ca7k5f9][/quote:1ca7k5f9] I STRONGLY disagree with this. I don't view Akka's defection from the Mandate (and certainly not his schism with Kellhus) to have any bearing on his relationship with Seswatha. It was only alluded to in the last half of TTT, but I think the relationship between Akka and Sessa will be of a higher "grade" than that of any other Mandati. Besides, you don't need to be associated with a faction to oppose the Consult or venerate an Ascendant (i.e. Seswatha). view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 18:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote:33t44riq]Seswatha was no doubt a terrible old man, one who certainly put his aims before any individual (cf Xin. or Nau-Cayuti) or any moral imperative and one who had (rightly) earned A's condemnation. [/quote:33t44riq] I would say he made a neccessary sacrifice and deep down Nau-Cayuti knew that his wife/whatever was dead. Dont forget he made many personal sacrifices for the World not for himself. After all he was only human and did the best he was capable of. view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 19:10 by Harrol, Moderator

I also do not think Akka performed any act that would severe his tie with Seswatha. He merely rejected Kellhus and his school which for all purposes maybe off track itself due to its coldness. view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 19:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

He is now a rogue wizard. view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 20:10 by Harrol, Moderator

No doubt he is but I believe he still has the dreams and will be the bane of the No-God and the consult. view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 22:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

His mission will not change but the way he accomplishes has changed. view post


posted 21 Oct 2006, 23:10 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Mahajanga Mordecai":2sbyo3t0][quote="anor277":2sbyo3t0]I do acknowledge that Achamian could yet prove useful to Kellhus. But I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the other matter. When Achamian renounced the Mandate, he renounced Seswatha as much as he was able. Seswatha was no doubt a terrible old man, one who certainly put his aims before any individual (cf Xin. or Nau-Cayuti) or any moral imperative and one who had (rightly) earned A's condemnation. [i:2sbyo3t0]edited for extra points[/i:2sbyo3t0][/quote:2sbyo3t0] I STRONGLY disagree with this. [/quote:2sbyo3t0] This is your prerogative. And as I said earlier, I agree to your disagreement. You have offered no evidence as to why Achamian has a "special relationship" with Seswatha beyond what you feel (and who knows, you may be right). Achamian denounced the Mandate as criminals and murderers; the Mandate was Seswatha's instrument, and he took extraordinary steps so that it remained faithful to his original aims. In this respect I feel that Achamian denounced Seswatha as much as he denounced the present Mandate. [quote:2sbyo3t0]I don't view Akka's defection from the Mandate (and certainly not his schism with Kellhus) to have any bearing on his relationship with Seswatha. It was only alluded to in the last half of TTT, but I think the relationship between Akka and Sessa will be of a higher "grade" than that of any other Mandati. Besides, you don't need to be associated with a faction to oppose the Consult or venerate an Ascendant (i.e. Seswatha). [/quote:2sbyo3t0] Well, we agree on one thing. Achamian's resignation from the Mandate probably does not affect the Mandate rituals. He will remain afflicted by the dreams; as indeed will every Mandate schoolman. They are as affected as he is; had Seswatha appeared to Achamian, and said "Akka, just who is this pigeon Kellhus?", you'd have a case to argue but in the absence of that... Again, certainly Achamian needn't be associated with a faction to oppose the Consult, but I never suggested otherwise. As to Seswatha as an ascendant, that's a long bow to draw. Seswatha, as far we know is long dead; venerated by the Mandate of course and his relics still serve some purpose. In any case, even after [i:2sbyo3t0]The Bonehunters[/i:2sbyo3t0] I still don't know what an ascendant is and what distinguishes one from any other extraordinary individual. view post


posted 22 Oct 2006, 05:10 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":21kcx2u4][quote:21kcx2u4]Seswatha was no doubt a terrible old man, one who certainly put his aims before any individual (cf Xin. or Nau-Cayuti) or any moral imperative and one who had (rightly) earned A's condemnation. [/quote:21kcx2u4] I would say he made a neccessary sacrifice and deep down Nau-Cayuti knew that his wife/whatever was dead. Dont forget he made many personal sacrifices for the World not for himself. After all he was only human and did the best he was capable of.[/quote:21kcx2u4] No doubt Seswatha did make necessary sacrifices; but they were sacrifices of other persons as well as those made on his own behalf. I think this is even evident in what little we have been told of the Sagas: Seswatha occupied an ambivalent role, saviour of humanity in one source, scheming evil genius in the next. Of course he was a human, but not all other humans were as strong as he and not all other humans had his strength, and Seswatha seemed to have little tolerance of his fellows' weakness. Perhaps the best instance of this was when the Scarlet Spires tortured Xinemus as a lever over Achamian. I recall that Seswatha's reply (or at least his presence in Achamian) was "I know him not". And this would have been the same reply if the Scarlet Spires had Esmenet or say a dozen infants in their clutches. Maybe in a grander scheme, all of Seswatha's actions are justifiable, I still regard him as morally damned. view post


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