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dusted off in read-only


For people ReReading posted 20 Oct 2006, 23:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I have just successfully reread the whole series and have noticed things that I did not notice before. So I have created this topic for those of you who think you noticed something. Something I noticed which wasnt actually part of the story but can be found in the Glossay pg 490, under Sranc was this "Under the command of the No-God they are utterly fearless, and seem to strike with unerring control and coordination. Is it just me or does that sound just like a certain battle in WP just after Kellhus comprehended the TfT and the Inrithi impossibly won the battle. It would seem to me that the No-God is somehow apart of the TFT. view post

posted 25 Oct 2006, 16:10 by Harrol, Moderator

In my reread of TTT at the end when Akka was coming to confront Kellhus I noticed something. That Akka is now awakened and no longer susceptible to the Duinyain. Okay no mystery there or any shokc but what I found shocking was the way he almost copied Cnaiur's way of veiwing the Inrithi. The first two guards that kneeled to him and saluted him as the Holy Tutor were spit on by him. We all know how much Cnaiur enjoys spitting with disgust. Then there is the fact that Akka is hardened now to the point that he has very few emotions left that are positive. I know it is not a revelation but rather something that struck me last night. view post

posted 25 Oct 2006, 21:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Indeed when Cnauir told him about the Dunyain, Akka understood everything Kellhus had done, he saw the manipulations, and the lies. You said it perfectly, he is now Awake. view post

posted 26 Oct 2006, 16:10 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

Which is why "nothing passed between them" when they stared into one anothers' faces. It was [i:xlyyf7dq]almost[/i:xlyyf7dq] like staring into the face of another Dunyain or Cnaiur when he was on the beach; there was nothing in either man to read. I think Akka has an even greater capacity for this due to Seswatha's influence. Though he may not make as much use of it as we hope. We [b:xlyyf7dq]are[/b:xlyyf7dq] talking about Akka after all. view post

posted 26 Oct 2006, 16:10 by Harrol, Moderator

Thats a great point I did not consider it that way. view post

posted 26 Oct 2006, 22:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

There are many ways to consider. view post

Re: For people ReReading posted 13 Nov 2006, 20:11 by Catalyst, Commoner

[quote="Warrior-Poet":3h9zqzkz]Something I noticed which wasnt actually part of the story but can be found in the Glossay pg 490, under Sranc was this "Under the command of the No-God they are utterly fearless, and seem to strike with unerring control and coordination. Is it just me or does that sound just like a certain battle in WP just after Kellhus comprehended the TfT and the Inrithi impossibly won the battle. It would seem to me that the No-God is somehow apart of the TFT.[/quote:3h9zqzkz] The No-God is quoted as being able to 'control Sranc, Bashrag and Wracu as extensions of his own will'. From my interpretation of the battle at the end of WP, I don't believe that this is what Kellhus was doing. Kellhus simply provided the Inrithi with the [i:3h9zqzkz]conviction[/i:3h9zqzkz] to win the battle. Kellhus says , during his schooling in war by Cnaiür: "In war conviction makes true". Obviously conviction itself won't win the battle but it severely offsets the disadvantages incurred the hardship undergone by the Inrithi in the desert. It was the condition of the Inrithi army that made victory so improbable, but with their unshakeable conviction in their Warrior-Prophet this is offset. Kellhus' tactics did the rest. view post

posted 15 Jan 2007, 18:01 by Ulyaoth, Commoner

Since there is no particular thread that coincides with what I desire to state, I'll just use this one to post a nagging assumption in my mind. That assumption being that Moengus did not die; at least immediately. I'm fully willing to accept that this presumption is theoretically preposterous and impractical, but in the absence of concrete information, and given the innate ambiguity of Mr. Bakker's narrative (particularly in the scenes I'm about to reference), any semi-warranted speculation should be at least considered until disproven. There have been very specific descriptions of sorcerer's turning to salt throughout the book, and Moengus' "death" did in no manner coincide with them. When a sorcerer bearing the full signs of the mark is struck, his salting is exact, and immediate. Not so for Moengus; judging by the way his eyes flared, and the fact that he jerked and spasmed, I have reason to believe he not only lived after Cnaiur touched him the chorae, but was able to cast a spell. Before continuing, for the sake of context, I would just like to juxtapose Inrau's reaction to being touched by the chorae, and the fact that he not only had most of the same physical responses, but that he salted fairly gradually. It is canon that Moengus did not have full capacity for The Water; it is also known that when you lack the water, that sorcery beyond your capability is physically taxing - perhaps even fatal - as evidenced by his description of the summons to Kellhus from his position to Ishual. Given these factors, Moengus would have little - if any - reason to practice sorcery on any wide spread scale, and since he presumably has the power of an underling, he would not need to use his sorcery for battles (avoiding them would be more practical), and considering that he is Dunyain, he would also have no need to practice the sorceries taught to him, he need only be told how it's done. Assuming he hadn't practiced sorcery often, the effects the chorae had on him would make some manner of sense; of course the effects of The Onta couldn't be perceivable to Kellhus as Moengus is Cishaurim, but I would be willing to speculate that Moengus was not deeply bruised. These factors would give Moengus a minor amount of time to live, the sorcery I'm about to describe would see him from Kyudea to the Meneanor. In the Darkness That Comes Before in the Cishaurim assault on Sasheoka as described through Eleazarus, whether it was metaphorical or not, I explicitly remember the text stating that the Cishaurim merely "flickered into existence" which suggests that they, perhaps have the capacity for transposing. And even if they don't have it innately, I think the Cant of Calling which Kellhus used to do so is semi-universal in sorcery, if Moengus used a similar variant of either of these two cants as Cnaiur rubbed his cheek with a chorae, he could very easily be outside, and near the Meneanor as the room darkness with Cnaiur under the assumption that he is dead, which coincides with a certain scene towards the end of the chapter that concludes the war in Shimeh. It depicts a boy, who, before meeting with who I would assume to be Aurang turns to look at a dead sorcerer. Why would this facet of information be randomly pointed out? Wonder if, by some choice and fortuitous circumstance Aurang found Moengus near the Meneanor after he had transported what remained of his body there, and noted how he looked like a bald Kellhus... wonder if Moengus revealed the location of Ishual to him hoping that Aurang could find his brothers and use them to continue the goal to seal the world shut...wonder if that is the secret Aurang jokingly refers to in what I perceived to be a half-giddy manner. Just a thought. view post

posted 15 Jan 2007, 18:01 by Harrol, Moderator

If that is true than things will be ugly in AE. Of course Scott is ambiguous enough to keep us guessing and never knowing until he choses to reveal it. view post

posted 15 Jan 2007, 18:01 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Quite an interesting theory Ulyaoth. I think its plausible even if it does not turn out to be true but as Harrol said Scott's work is very ambiguous and as Ive learned from reading his books often things you read that seem to have more to it, either do not or take a complete turn from your own train of thought. Which makes Scott's work all the more enjoyable, things could be interesting if this turns out to be true. view post

posted 15 Jan 2007, 19:01 by Madness, Peralogue

I was just perusing TTT forum as I'm wont to do throughout a day and while nothing so far incites me to write a lengthy post, your post, Ulyaoth, did at least make me pause in my perusal. Firstly, your writing; very intelligent and articulate. I respect that. However, the reason for my post, is that aside from articulate writing you unfortantly have a misconception as basis for your speculation. Moënghus did [i:1gy6f8an]not[/i:1gy6f8an] transpose himself from the Mansion beneath Kyudea to anywhere. Despite the ambiguity in Mr. Bakker's writing, even in your so-called definitive definitions of salting, I don't believe that anywhere throughout the books set descriptions contradict Moënghus's salting. Furthermore, aside from the doubt the above alone instills, Moënghus's salted form is described twice by Mr. Bakker post-salting. [quote:1gy6f8an]"Not again!" Cnaiür howled at the sagging form. He stumbled to his knees, weeping, raving. "How could you leave me?" His screech pealed through the derelict halls, filled the very earth. And he laughed, thinking of the final swazond he would cut into his throat. One last thought too many ... [i:1gy6f8an]See! See![/i:1gy6f8an] He cackled with grief. He knelt over his lover's corpse - for how many heartbeats, he would never know.[/quote:1gy6f8an] Speculation, though fact for basis is sparse, on the scene with Aurang and the child is probably warranted though. I'm a strong believer that Mr. Bakker does not write scenes without, at least hidden, reason. Usually with his writing I've found consistency upon conclusion. view post

posted 15 Jan 2007, 20:01 by Ulyaoth, Commoner

[quote:24amou1b]Despite the ambiguity in Mr. Bakker's writing, even in your so-called definitive definitions of salting[/quote:24amou1b] I did not define my descriptions as definitive. But do recall the ulterior descriptions of the salted sorcerers; it was almost always described as an eruption into a pillar of salt. Always. The only exception that stands out in my mind is Inrau, who for reasons I previously outlined did not salt immediately, but instead, did so gradually (the case I made for Moengus.) If this is the consistent description, why does Moengus contradict it so? He not only had time to jerk and convulse, but he had time for white light to come from his eyes (a sign that has been previously associated in the book as someone who is in the midst of performing a cant.) I could, of course be incorrect, but in order for this to be definitively so, there would have to be another description of someone whose eyes did the same thing Moengus's did, and according to my recollection, there is no such example. [quote:24amou1b]Furthermore, aside from the doubt the above alone instills, Moënghus's salted form is described twice by Mr. Bakker post-salting. [/quote:24amou1b] I would have thought much the same if it weren't for these two sentences. [quote:24amou1b]But his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them.[/quote:24amou1b] As well as: [quote:24amou1b]"Not again!" Cnaiur howled at the sagging form.[/quote:24amou1b] Both of these quotes allude to Moengus' [i:24amou1b]body[/i:24amou1b] gradually disappearing. His clothes could be taken as a surrogate for a corpse, especially given Cnaiur's current emotional state. And when throughout the entirety of the Prince of Nothing has a sorcerer been described as "burning" or having [i:24amou1b]any [/i:24amou1b] light after being touched with a Chorae? Never to my knowledge. And if his body is gradually transposing...would light not cover his frame? But again, I'm very open to the highly probable clause of fallibility on my end. Despite this, there's still a case that can be made for Moengus living long enough to give the information, though, and for the sake of discussion, I think it would be worth it to continue until absolution in fact can assist in the subsequent removal of doubt. Cases where the above have occurred in Chorae deaths could offer this. view post

posted 15 Jan 2007, 20:01 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I will again comment on this simply because I feel the need to agree with Ulyaoth in the fact that he is correct about salting and also correct that the scene in which Moenghus was "salting" was quite different from how salting was previously described to us by Scott, while Im am still not sure he is correct in his theory of Moenghus transposing out of Kyudea I do believe there might be more to it than Moenghus simply salting away. As Ulyaoth points out such words as sagging do not seem to myself an ordinary salting or a sorcerer. The true reason I like his theory at all is his explanation for the scene with Aurang, which to me seems important in a way we have yet to realize. view post

posted 16 Jan 2007, 00:01 by anor277, Didact

Just on the topic of "salting", I think it was mentioned somewhere that Non-men sorcerors, who had practised for 1000+ years and in whom the mark was deeply ingrained, would salt even in the mere proximity of a chorae even [i:x1r5btzf]without[/i:x1r5btzf] physical contact. (The salting idea is a nice biblical touch by the author, Lot's wife etc.; common salt was also deadly to witches in folklore - mind you its hardly chemically sound). It is reasonable that Moenghus would have had some resistance to the chorae. I'm reluctant to agree that Moenghus survived, however, for the very reason that Kellhus had put a gaping wound in him beforehand and I doubt K would have made a mistake with such a dangerous adversary as his father. We shall see. PS @WP I was also intrigued with that scene with Aurang and the boy collecting salt (sorceror salt is no doubt a prized commodity among the chefs and the foodies of the Three-Seas and gives their dishes an added zing). PPS regarding the Cishaurim's raid on the Scarlet Spires stronghold, it was my impression that Cishaurim sorcery had simply rendered them invisible to the SS wards - Iyokus, or someone, spoke of trained dogs patrolling the corridors alert to the Cishaurim's saffron scent. Transposing, at the moment, seems to be a virtuoso performance of Kellhus. view post


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