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No-God's questions posted 27 Oct 2006, 09:10 by Alpha Crow, Candidate

I have to ask, what do you all think about the questions the No-God asked in all the dreams? (i.e. "What do you see?") Really intrigues me. Have to say, Mr. Bakker definitely knows how to add mystery to a story. Too many authors make their enemy simply powerful and evil with no reason or issues. The PoN series definitely leaves you questioning "what does it mean?" about a whole lot and leaves it to your imagination to figure it out. Could there be a catch in there? A portent of the future? Pattern? Reason? Weakness? After reading Heroes Die and Blade of Tyshalle (both awesome), I'm glad amazon.com pointed me to the books. My new favorites! view post


posted 27 Oct 2006, 12:10 by Harrol, Moderator

I believe the No-God lacks a certain amount of self awareness. To what degree I am not sure. He is certainly a force that disturbes the cycle of life. view post


posted 28 Oct 2006, 13:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

This has certainly been asked in many other topics, for the most part people seem to agree with Harrol on the lack of self awareness but i havent decided my opinion on the questions. view post


posted 28 Oct 2006, 18:10 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="Harrol":36lz8azw]I believe the No-God lacks a certain amount of self awareness. To what degree I am not sure. He is certainly a force that disturbes the cycle of life.[/quote:36lz8azw] I think this seems to be the general consensus of many of us on the board, alhough to what extent we agree or disagree is different I guess. It does seem to indicate some sort of detachment from the world, not comprehending fully what it is. But of course we could all be wrong :) view post


posted 28 Oct 2006, 19:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I think the lack of awareness is a good possibility but it seems a little to simple for Bakkers ideas, I feel as though their needs to be something deeper. view post


posted 29 Oct 2006, 07:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Warrior-Poet":2x8v2dxs]I think the lack of awareness is a good possibility but it seems a little to simple for Bakkers ideas, I feel as though their needs to be something deeper.[/quote:2x8v2dxs] The No God is most definitely self aware. However, beyond that, we know nothing. Here are some of the clues: a) He repeats the words of Anaxophus in Akka's modified dreams. Of course, we're left wondering if the original dreams were true or if the new dreams are a lie b) His words are repeated by the Sranc in unison. c) WHAT AM I? WHAT DO YOU SEE? This is a confused and blind creature, but NOT a creature who is not self aware. He *is* self aware. So what can we conclude based on these clues? Not much. The No God is somehow connected to the Sranc and possibly even to mankind (e.g. Anaxophus), but completely unware of what he is or even able to see (which caused many readers to incorrectly conclude that he isn't self aware). He is the ultimate creation of the Inchoroi, but his exact nature isn't explained yet. He's definitely one of Bakker's more interesting enigmas. Edit: Changed Celmonas reference to Anaxophus. Doh! view post


posted 29 Oct 2006, 10:10 by zarathustra, Peralogue

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":3pje9bd0] a) He repeats the words of Celmonas in Akka's modified dreams. Of course, we're left wondering if the original dreams were true or if the new dreams are a lie [/quote:3pje9bd0] I am not sure which part of the books you are refering to here. Celmonas only appears in one scene towards the start of Prince of Nothing. But I don't have the book any more. We have indeed spent much time discusses the No-God and how much he is a conscious entity. As Mr Bakker has spoken of the No-God planning various battlefield tactics such as the sparing of the two Northern cities in order to preserve his few sorcerous then I think this shows some form of self awareness. On the other hand a computer can make tactical descions but is not in any way self aware. Speculating further I wonder if the No-God is actually afraid when taking the battlefield. We know that he has avoided this up until the desisive battle. So does the No-God feel emotions if so this would be another key part in understanding the creature. Possible further clues could come from reading Daniel Dennets book Consciosness Explained which I know has influenced the author. But I haven't got round to reading it yet nor am likely to. view post


posted 29 Oct 2006, 10:10 by Murrin, Peralogue

But do we really know that the No-God did plan the war, and that it chose to stay off the battlefield? That could be the perception taken of it by the people of the Three Seas, but it could just as easily have been the Consult who made the decisions, the Consult who held it back until necessary. The idea that the No-God was in charge could come from a misperception of its nature. When it asks "what do you see?" that doesn't indicate that it cannot see, only that is cannot see [i:3crquh39]itself[/i:3crquh39]. To this extent Harrol would be right to say it lacks a "certain amount" of self-awareness. It cannot perceive its own nature. The fact that the king repeats the words at the end suggests he may have been the one the No-God was attempting to ask, to communicate with. The No-God wanted to know what it was. Myself, I think the No-God may have been some element of the Outside that the Consult trapped in the World, sealed within the Carapace. If the thing that became the No-God (that becomes the No-God when this is done to it) was not of the World, it would have difficulty understanding the World if it suddenly found itself trapped there. view post


posted 29 Oct 2006, 15:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

This has less to do with the questions, but in another post I discussed how it seems the No-God has comprehended the TfT or is a large piece of it hence his precise control over the Sranc. As for his awareness I think there is definitely something more to the questions than a simple lack of awareness. view post


posted 30 Oct 2006, 04:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote:tz5fulj7]I am not sure which part of the books you are refering to here. Celmonas only appears in one scene towards the start of Prince of Nothing. [/quote:tz5fulj7] Doh! You're right. I meant to say Anaxophus. I have no idea what Celmonas popped into my head. Change has been made. ;) view post


posted 30 Oct 2006, 04:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Murrin":24019yqo] Myself, I think the No-God may have been some element of the Outside that the Consult trapped in the World, sealed within the Carapace. If the thing that became the No-God (that becomes the No-God when this is done to it) was not of the World, it would have difficulty understanding the World if it suddenly found itself trapped there.[/quote:24019yqo] Maybe. But what about our face changing friends? What about the Sranc? They seem to posses some means of self-awareness. Or perhaps they are machines pretending at self awareness because that's what they were programmed to do. Do they have souls? The book leaves this open. Perhaps they posses some trapped elements of the Outside as you suggest the No-God does. view post


posted 30 Oct 2006, 14:10 by Will, Peralogue

Several times in the books Sarcellus is described as a well trained animal. What passes for thoughts pass through what passes for its soul, etc. It seems that creations of the Tekne are as self-aware as your dog, just far better trained. It lacks the complexity of a human mind, being entirely concerned with achieving climax, which it can do only at the bidding of its masters. Kellhus recognizes that the face-changers bear a relation to the Sranc, wishing to rut with their knives. From this it seems that the Sranc are mentally similar to the face changers, although that is admittedly somewhat of a leap. It feels like they got a good suboradinate mind going in their creations and stuck with it. (Subsequent versions of an OS?) I don't have any real idea what is up with the No-God though, as a creation of the Tekne it seems like it would resemble Sranc/Skin-changers, but as I recall the No-God is described as being "awakened" by the Inchoroi and consequently it may be fundamentally different from their creations. view post


posted 01 Nov 2006, 03:11 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Will":3e261acs]Several times in the books Sarcellus is described as a well trained animal. What passes for thoughts pass through what passes for its soul, etc. It seems that creations of the Tekne are as self-aware as your dog, just far better trained. It lacks the complexity of a human mind, being entirely concerned with achieving climax, which it can do only at the bidding of its masters..[/quote:3e261acs] The book suggests that the "complexity" of the human mind is overrated. The Dunyain master circumstances by knowing "what comes before". They know the programming that drives men and so are able to manipulate "regular" humans in ways simular to the ways the Consult manipulates the face changers and Sranc. This begs an interesting philosophical question. If man can be as easily manipulated as these creatures, what gives him the right to say *he* has a soul and not these creations? view post


posted 01 Nov 2006, 13:11 by Harrol, Moderator

Do not forget that Kellhus stated that skin-soies lacked the depth of humans but rather they were a shadow of human depth. Something to that degree was stated. For reference it was statedin TTT at a point were Akka was talking to Kellhus about how hard it was to break skin spies. view post


posted 01 Nov 2006, 22:11 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Harrol":35rk1lhg]Do not forget that Kellhus stated that skin-soies lacked the depth of humans but rather they were a shadow of human depth. Something to that degree was stated. For reference it was statedin TTT at a point were Akka was talking to Kellhus about how hard it was to break skin spies.[/quote:35rk1lhg] As I recall, Kellhus or Achamian observed that the Skin Spies were products of strong conditioning; i.e. response only to a given set of circumstances. Kellhus, Dunyain trained, [i:35rk1lhg]could[/i:35rk1lhg] break the conditioning but this would be a programme of years. Moenghus, also Dunyain trained, did have years to break the Skin Spies he had captured; hence they revealed the Consult's plans. view post


posted 02 Nov 2006, 00:11 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Only as much as they knew about the Consult's plans. view post


posted 02 Nov 2006, 03:11 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Just wanted to point out that my comment of lack of awareness to some degree in no way implied that the No-God was not self-aware. Not comprehending oneself fully is not the same thing as being non-self-aware. It is kind of like Frankensteins Monster in a way when you think about it, and the No-God may exist in that mold to some extent. I expect that it will be a superficial comparison at best given Scotts metaphysics view post


posted 02 Nov 2006, 03:11 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":74w2i4sm]Only as much as they knew about the Consult's plans.[/quote:74w2i4sm] And that knowledge may have been considerable. For instance, (i) they knew of the Consult's master plan to close the world; (ii) they knew why the Consult was at war with the Cishaurim; (iii) they also knew that an extraordinary skin spy had been placed in the upper echelons of the Mandate. (With its spies the Consult would have been better served to operate on a need to know basis.) view post


posted 13 Nov 2006, 19:11 by Catalyst, Commoner

It occured to me that when the No-God asks [b:23i4m7ur]"WHAT DO YOU SEE?"[/b:23i4m7ur], this is not a result of any lack of self-awareness but because the No-God is described as being encased in a sarcophagus (the Carapace - studded with eleven Chorae). Its pretty hard to see whats going on from the interior of a solid sarcophagus. Also, why is the No-God encased in the Carapace? Obviously for protection, but what if it also limits the No-God in some way (eg. sight, movement, perception of the world, etc)? The No-God is certainly self-aware (he is able to comprehend there is an 'I' to ask the constant question [b:23i4m7ur]"WHAT AM I?"[/b:23i4m7ur] about). But encased in the Carapace, how much can he see, even of the interior of the Carapace. If no light enters the Carapace then the No-God will not be able to even see his own form; if he even has a physical form. The fact is that we know next to nothing about the No-God. It is possible that he is no more than a tool himself, forced to do the will of the Consult. Now surely, some of you might say, the No-God could not be [i:23i4m7ur]forced[/i:23i4m7ur] to do anything by the Consult. But why not? We assume that the No-God possesses some sort of sorcerous ability. Fantastic, but that isn't going to help when he's encased in a solid iron sarcophagus that is studded with eleven Chorae, thus rendering it immune to sorcery. Is the Carapace as much a prison as a method of protection? Okay, but whats to stop him laying waste to the whole bunch of them? Well, even the No-God has limits (otherwise how on Earth did the Consult not win first time around). And even if he did lay waste to them, he's still trapped in a lightless sarcophagus-prison. The glossary at the end of TTT says that the Consult [i:23i4m7ur]summoned[/i:23i4m7ur] the No-God. Is the No-God trapped in the physical world? Does he even want to be on the world of Eärwa and Eänna? Is he being held under duress, much like Zioz during the battle for Shimeh? Laters view post


posted 13 Nov 2006, 20:11 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

The idea that the chorae was there to protect him as well as resrain him is a large idea already. view post


posted 13 Nov 2006, 20:11 by Catalyst, Commoner

Oops. I really should read through the rest of the threads. I'm too lazy too though :D view post


posted 23 Dec 2006, 19:12 by Anonymous, Subdidact

When I first read the series the questions of Mog-Pharau made me pity him. Even more, I found that I could relate. Which struck me as kind of strange, since I am no World-Breaker by any stretch of the imagination. And as far as I know there was no drastic increase in stillborn infants 20 years ago. Then it struck me (with my own palm, no less. Probably for being so stupid.): Those are the fundamental questions of [b:2gwpo6l1]Man[/b:2gwpo6l1]. We crawl through life asking those selfsame questions. [i:2gwpo6l1]What am I?[/i:2gwpo6l1] [i:2gwpo6l1]What do you see?[/i:2gwpo6l1] So here is my theory: The Consult summoned THE SOUL OF MANKIND (= all the souls of man) and bound them within the Carapace, thus leaving none to animate the newborn. Since the Unconditioned Soul is, according to the Dûnyain, a thing of the future, the Consult could have easily "come before" the SOUL. This could also be the way the No-God controlled the hordes of Sranc, Bashrag and Wracu: By instilling parts of itself, by ensouling the soulless. So maybe Tsuramah didn't control as much as become his own minions, much in the way of the Inrithi God, the One that is Many. And when the Heron Spear shattered the Carapace all the souls were released, rendering the Hordes soulless and enabling the Cycle of Souls once more. view post


posted 26 Dec 2006, 16:12 by Harrol, Moderator

Wow :shock: That a lot of what you say could be true. I never saw it that way or even thought of it. I will have to look at it futher a we will have to wait for more books to come out to know for certain, but great catch. view post


posted 04 Jan 2007, 18:01 by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

Wow, that was a great catch....I'd always thought that the No-God, for whatever reaso, was like an infant...but with awareness and intellect, but newborn nonetheless...which would be why Mog keps asking the question...it struck me as almost petulant, like a child who [i:3jrdctsy]needs[/i:3jrdctsy] something, and demands it repeatedly. It makes alot of sense if Mog is literally an incarnation of all the souls not on Earwa, and why he expresses those 'fundamental' questions of man. But then, shouldnt that affect the way the Outside leaks into the world? I can't properly remember akka's description of that, and i can't find the passage...it's somewhere in tTT though. view post


More posted 19 Jan 2007, 10:01 by jwrmad, Commoner

I think the theory that the No-God is the soul of all mankind has much to recommend it. I think it is worth saying that the No-God is a product of the Tekne, which is based upon the belief that living things are simply machines of a complicated species. How the Tekne could then be connected to the binding of souls is thus unclear. However, a skin-spy did have a soul, so clearly the Tekne can have some non-mundane components. This non-contradiction reinforces the theory, it seems to me. Another interesting thing is the fact that the Tekne came with the Inchoroi from the Void, which resonates with discussions of the Outside in some sense. The Outside is described as a less objective existence in which "Gods" exist in sub-realities conforming to their will, while the World is the point of maximum objectivity in which the workings of the universe are independent of the desires of those who live within it. Now, I'll try explain my next theory clearly. The Ark could be representative of the Inchoroi sub-reality in which they were technological "Gods" living in a world without souls and thus without damnation. When they crashed from the heavens into this world, they were subjected to a world involving sorcery (as compared to their apparent beam weapons e.g. the Heron Spear), Non-Men and worst of all, souls and judgment. By destroying all mankind, and perhaps Non-Men as well, the Inchoroi can eliminate all soulful creatures in existence and somehow seal this world from the Outside that was once their heaven but is now their feared future. Ultimately this seems to connect to the idea of "the other" (ie that which is outside the self). Rather than having some sort of rational objective existence, the other is a product of those who view it. In a world believing in souls there are souls. In a world believing only in the Tekne, only the Tekne can exist. By removing those creatures who subscribe to the ideas of souls and the afterlife, the Inchoroi can destroy man's (and Nonmen's) ability to subjectively order "the other" along their lines of belief. Now, the primary issue with this is the fact that somehow the beliefs of third parties can effect the other for you, thus removing some of the subjectivity by subjecting you to their reality. This is in accordance with the philosophy of the book, however, as there is an extended discussion regarding how reality is shaped by the beliefs of others (eg why is this infant a king and this infant a slave?). This also explains why the world is the point of maximum objectivity, it is where millions of individuals meet in one place, and therefore are subjected to the whims and desires of others, rather than simply the fantasies of their own self. The irony of all this, of course, is that the Inchoroi are forced to believe in the soul (and, given this theory of the No-God, even make use of it) when attempting to destroy it, and thus align themselves with the world's belief. This susceptibility to "peer pressure" could be ultimately what is being critiqued. The other is changed because we allow it to be changed. We make ourselves the measure of all others, but so do we make all others the measure of ourselves. view post


posted 23 Jan 2007, 15:01 by Ulyaoth, Commoner

I never looked at the No-God as the product of the Tekne, and I think the only relation the No-God has to the Tekne is its oncoming resurrection. The No-God never seemed so much "made" as it was discovered, and harnessed. The Inchoroi aren't so vain as to worship their own creations, I would think, nor do I believe they would worship something they perceive as beneath them, which something made by their own hands would be. If anything, I think the Tekne is merely a name for what we would call "science." Not a religion, or competing view point. In my view, it has always seemed to be a study of biology and technology and how to apply them both to make a functional creation. The "Void" you refer to, is not synonymous with the outside, it's merely the word used to specify what we would call "space." According to the descriptions given, The Ark is a living entity (or vessel) used to traverse it while simultaneously cultivating the lives of the creatures it held in its metaphorical (or actual) womb. If anything, this much is true, the soul doesn't so much cause the Outside to exist, as it acts as a gateway to the Outside's jurisidiction in the organic world. When this gateway is removed, so then is its power over living entities in this life, and the next, hence the Inchoroi's goal. I don't think belief plays a factor in this, as the Inchoroi were forced to look at the Outside's existence as an inevitable fact, contradictory to belief. If it were as easy as "not believing," it would be more plausible for the Inchoroi to merely construct a new religion as opposed to causing the genocide of an entire world. The Inchoroi didn't discover the existence of the Outside, or Gods or even souls through peer pressure, they found the Outside by delving deeply beneath the Ark - a place where the destruction of their race had formulated a Tapoi which caused them to see into the Outside, and thus uncover the marker of their damnation and work towards preventing it. A goal that coincided with that of Shauriatas, who seemed to be proficient in the transferring of souls more so than the Inchoroi. I would imagine the Consult seeks to revive the No-God by utilizing his capability with that of the Tekne, or perhaps creating new branches of sorcery with this goal in mind. I think the only prominence belief has on the world of the Prince of Nothing is personal. I do not think belief can contradict or negate existence. view post


posted 26 Jan 2007, 17:01 by Soul, Commoner

I'm not sure anyone said anything about contradicting or negating exsistence, as that would be fair easier said than done, as long as people see, feel, smell, taste, and breath they will believe they exist. If belief has no berring, then Kellhus's halloe'd hands become harder to explain, save perhaps mass hysteria, which he himself is succumbing to. Unless its the slow progression of the outside gaining interest in him. Also, the thousand-fold thought also comes into question. I think Moengus pretty clearly spells out what the thousand-fold thought is. He relays the concept of a game of lies, they are so widely played out that then in-truth become reality. What a thousand, thousand believe becomes truth. Now, there are a lot of potential issues with this, as most people believe a lot of differant things, but i think by and large what is held to be 'unvirersaly true', holds sway.. now to what degree its hard to say. view post


posted 05 Feb 2007, 02:02 by Alpha Crow, Candidate

Two thoughts: 1) Didn't it say somewhere that the womb-plague was a virus or such? 2) Achamian notices the halos on Kellhus' hands in passing at one point and I think he's already disillusioned with him. I think the halos are real for whatever reason. I'm still curious what exactly IS the thousandfold thought. And... what exactly happened to Kellhus' while he was circumfixed in the tree. Ripped out Serwe's heart? Came back and suddenly had haloed hands? I think a lot of the story hinges on that particular sequence, but it is purposefully left in the dark. Kell's only plan to get down actually was in motion, but it wasn't what got him down. Yet he had revelations while in the tree that changed his planning and apparently, human status. Did he just die on the cross and come back to the world? (so to speak) view post


posted 05 Feb 2007, 06:02 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Alpha Crow":3u5s8t90] Two thoughts: 1) Didn't it say somewhere that the womb-plague was a virus or such? [/quote:3u5s8t90] As I recall the womb-plague was the Inchoroi engineered disease that killed off all the Non-Men females (Non-Women?). It predated the spate of still-births that occurred during the No-God's existence by 1000's of years [quote:3u5s8t90] 2) Achamian notices the halos on Kellhus' hands in passing at one point and I think he's already disillusioned with him. I think the halos are real for whatever reason.[/quote:3u5s8t90] And many here would agree with you. But the haloes seem to persist even if someone who does not believe in Kellhus is observing him. Why should they disappear? [quote:3u5s8t90] I'm still curious what exactly IS the thousandfold thought. And... what exactly happened to Kellhus' while he was circumfixed in the tree. Ripped out Serwe's heart? Came back and suddenly had haloed hands? I think a lot of the story hinges on that particular sequence, but it is purposefully left in the dark. Kell's only plan to get down actually was in motion, but it wasn't what got him down. Yet he had revelations while in the tree that changed his planning and apparently, human status. Did he just die on the cross and come back to the world? (so to speak)[/quote:3u5s8t90] What is the thousand-fold thought? I’m curious too, a gigantic con-trick, a mass acceptance of Kellhus' divinity? Both Moenghus and Kellhus realized they would never be able to sway the masses of the Three-Seas without appearing as a religious, messianic figure. The option was not really open to Moenghus (save through a proxy) but it was open to Kelllhus, and he even muses one time that he dare not tell them the truth. On the circumfix, Kellhus plans become actualized by belief - he becomes that divinity that the masses perceive him to be; this for mine was the thousand fold thought - the widespread recognition of Kellhus' divinity; intent and planning on Kellhus' part becomes sanctified by perfervid belief on the part of the Men of the Tusk. This belief is made even more sacred by the fact that the men of the Tusk had at one point rejected Kellhus and had done him near to death; a poignancy that Kellhus had undoubtedly intended. Of course, (as far as we know) it is a sham or a trick (Kellhus holding aloft the heart of his wife - as Eleazaras observed - was part of the trick because it was perceived that he had ripped out his own heart and not Serwe’s). But while on the circumfix Kellhus experienced visions and hallucinations, perhaps from the outside, perhaps from the No-God. Maybe this was brought on by his ordeal (he was very close to dying but then he’d been close to dying before) or maybe this was a higher state of consciousness; i.e. Kellhus has run through all the permutations and combinations and determined the status of gods, godlings, and No-Gods; maybe he has yet hidden plans to be revealed. The irony of Kellhus believing his own lies would be very funny. view post


posted 07 Feb 2007, 23:02 by Alpha Crow, Candidate

I feel, intuitively I should say, there is something to the circumfix sequence. That his plan to get down was not what brought about him getting down, seems oddly important. That his plans are being superseded by his holy status and larger, divine plans, perhaps? That being said, it seems odd that he planned and did rip out Serwe's heart just for such purposes. I'm sure everyone is as thirsty for the real answer. I would say it was physically impossible for him to do so with his bare hands, but he apparently has done similar while fighting. Question: I'm under the impression the thousandfold thought is not for religious purposes, but the next or last step in the dunyain training. Moenghus certainly did not want to save mankind. In fact, it was implied that he wished to close off mankind to the Outside to save himself and the dunyain from hell. That part could just be fanaticism talking, also... What do you think the basic idea of the thought is? I think it may be a super version of the probability trance. view post


posted 08 Feb 2007, 00:02 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Alpha Crow":mrq6jnmu]......................... That being said, it seems odd that he planned and did rip out Serwe's heart just for such purposes. I'm sure everyone is as thirsty for the real answer. I would say it was physically impossible for him to do so with his bare hands, but he apparently has done similar while fighting. ...................[/quote:mrq6jnmu] Just on this point there was no need for him to rip out the heart from Serwe's corpse with his bare hands. Serwe had already been mutilated by the faithful; how badly we don't know though if Sarcellus did it, he was proabaly very thorough. view post


posted 08 Feb 2007, 00:02 by Madness, Peralogue

I've always maitained that the Thousandfold Thought was in essence a deeper layer to the probability trance. There are two indicators to me as to it's true nature though they both imply different things. Firstly, the excerpt from The Thousandfold Thought that coincides with my own belief concerning it's nature: [quote:2n681tsi]Kellhus had seen it many times, wandering the labyrinth of possibilities that was the Thousandfold Thought[/quote:2n681tsi] My assertions of the Thousandfold Thought follow much the same process. I believe that the Dûnyain lack the proper variables in isolation to achieve their goal of an Unconditioned soul. The sole two of their number to have left Ishüal apprehend so much more reality than the worldborn no matter what circumstance they encounter. Likewise, the sole two Dûnyain to have left Ishüal apprehend the Thousandfold Thought; Moënghus through years and years of Dûnyain meditation, the probability trance, and Kellhus through the conditioned events his father Moënghus sets before him. To me the Thousandfold Thought is like fate mapped though through logic and reasoning of circumstances; hense Kellhus knows what Moënghus will do before Moënghus himself infers it. The other possibility, which is likely either part of the above or a more likely contradiction, is that the Thousandfold Thought can shape reality through belief. As Soul has maintained above and elsewhere: what a thousand thousand believe becomes so. This is evident through many excerpts in The Thousandfold Thought glossary, Moënghus's explaination of viramsata, and Kellhus's own grasping of the Thousandfold Thought precisely when a thousand thousand finally believe he truly is a prophet. Only had a couple minutes before I started cooking some dinner and popped on here to peruse; this caught my attention and I thought I'd make a quick post. The above are just a few thoughts. view post


posted 08 Feb 2007, 21:02 by Alpha Crow, Candidate

What'd you cook? view post


posted 09 Feb 2007, 20:02 by Madness, Peralogue

Hmm... chicken fingers, I think. I'm not much of a cook and it t'was a couple nights ago now. Good question by the way, Alpha. Gave me a laugh when I read it. view post


posted 23 Jun 2007, 19:06 by Nerdanel, Peralogue

I have an entirely different theory. I think the No-God is asking the questions, because he's been suddenly blinded and can't see what's in front of him. Notice how the No-God's tornado ravages his own troops while the Sranc claw their eyes. I think Seswatha has cast a low-level blindness spell on all the gazillion Sranc present. IIRC Achamian casts just that spell while escaping the Scarlet Spires. I think the No-God was blinded since his carapace was opaque and he saw only through the eyes of his minions. Translating the No-God's words: [b:3t7ylbbj]WHAT DO YOU SEE?[/b:3t7ylbbj] "Describe me what you see, particularly where we are, where the enemy is, how their troops are arranged, if is anyone trying anything funny, that kind of thing." [b:3t7ylbbj]I MUST KNOW WHAT YOU SEE.[/b:3t7ylbbj] "I can't target any of my doom spells if I don't know where the enemy is. We're in the middle of a battle, in the case you missed that little fact." [b:3t7ylbbj]TELL ME.[/b:3t7ylbbj] "Once again, and I'm repeating this very slowly for you imbecilles, I need a description of the battlefield. Got it?" [b:3t7ylbbj]WHAT AM I?[/b:3t7ylbbj] "Do you think I'm a fluffy bunny or something, instead of a great and terrible god that's going to damn all of you very soon now unless you obey me like good little slaves and beg for forgiveness?" The No-God probably would have been able to do something to counter the Heron Spear if he hadn't been blind and had been able to see that it was about to be used. view post


posted 28 Jun 2007, 17:06 by 1gunners4, Commoner

I don't know, Nerdanel, I found the No-God to be much less a massive demonic force than some unwilling power that is being harnessed by the Inchoroi. The questions, the sarcophagus, the chorae, all evidence supports this idea; the chorae aren't meant to keep sorcerors out, per se, but to keep this being in, as is the sarcophagus, and the questions are reached out to Seswatha, a man the No-God may fear but must also respect. Perhaps it sees him as a kindred spirit, as well, and sorcery may also be how he contacts Ses (also may be why chorae could be used to contain him). Perhaps the No-God is the very emodiment of sorcery. Honestly, in my opinion, the No-God has as much understanding as to what it is as Seswatha does. view post


posted 28 Dec 2007, 08:12 by Mandati Wannabe, Candidate

[quote="1gunners4":3qggwxdm]I don't know, Nerdanel, I found the No-God to be much less a massive demonic force than some unwilling power that is being harnessed by the Inchoroi.[/quote:3qggwxdm] At least from my own point of view, this is exactly what the No-God is. We are told that the No-God is a product of the Tekne (else how would the Tekne resurrect him?) and he(?) clearly has control over the rest of the Tekne (Wracu, Sranc, etc.) Each of the products of the Tekne seem to be controlled by their "hunger." For example, we are told the Sranc "need" to kill Men, "to quiet the madness of their hearts." This suggests that the behavior the No-God exhibits is precisely the behavior the Consult wanted it to possess. The notable difference seems to be that the No-God's desires are essentially unfulfillable. (Seswatha's response to the No-God's saying the answers are "forgotten"). So we basically have a giant, sentient war machine driven to insanity by its unfulfillable desires, which thus continues to destroy (until destroyed, obviously) view post


Radioactive? posted 10 Mar 2008, 07:03 by ceti, Commoner

Is the No-God radioactive or are the after effects of the Heron Spear radioactive? I'm thinking this as field of Mengedda where the No-God died makes men sick (although it also gives them nightmares). view post


posted 16 Mar 2008, 11:03 by Nerdanel, Peralogue

I think the No-God can controll the products of Tekne because they are soulless, so that there isn't anything interfering with the force of his will. He might be able to controll animals too, although perhaps there is a difference between what passes as souls for Tekne creatures and genuinely soulless natural animals. I think Achamian's final dream in TTT in which Anaxophus repeats the No-God's words suggests that the Dûnyain conditioning is not actually making their souls free. I think the condition makes the Dûnyain into predictable, semi-soulless machines that the No-God can puppet - just like skin-spies but better. view post


the 11 chorae posted 03 Apr 2008, 16:04 by Vomikron Noxis, Candidate

This is perhaps neither here nor there, but when mention of the 11 chorae in carapace comes up, I can't help but think of this particular pattern of 11: [img:2jpkyp22]http://www.kch42.dial.pipex.com/images/TreeOfLife_bwNames.gif[/img:2jpkyp22] I mean, not that dragging in the Kabbalah really helps simplify anything. ~rl view post


yup posted 23 Apr 2008, 20:04 by shuggy, Commoner

[quote="Nerdanel":rjszybh6]I think the No-God can controll the products of Tekne because they are soulless, so that there isn't anything interfering with the force of his will. He might be able to controll animals too, although perhaps there is a difference between what passes as souls for Tekne creatures and genuinely soulless natural animals. I think Achamian's final dream in TTT in which Anaxophus repeats the No-God's words suggests that the Dûnyain conditioning is not actually making their souls free. I think the condition makes the Dûnyain into predictable, semi-soulless machines that the No-God can puppet - just like skin-spies but better.[/quote:rjszybh6] Khellus is the No-God! view post


posted 24 Apr 2008, 22:04 by Harrol, Moderator

I can not agree with that. He may end up as his instrument but he is not the no-god. view post


posted 25 Apr 2008, 19:04 by Nerdanel, Peralogue

I've been reading up on the Sephiroth and Kabbalah due to the mention in this thread, and I think it's definitely relevant and may have far reaching connections to the Three Seas metaphysics. Of particular note is that that diagram is called the [b:k7pcphvx]Tree of Life[/b:k7pcphvx]. You may have noticed how trees (with or without leaves) keep appearing in the books in contexts full of symbolism. For example in Kellhus's vision while hanging from a dead tree on the circumfix, I think the animal-human thing is Kellhus himself and the leafless tree under a starry sky is the No-God. Now make a connection between the stars behind the tree/the nodes of the Kabbalah [b:k7pcphvx][u:k7pcphvx][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/qliphoth:k7pcphvx]Qliphoth[/url:k7pcphvx][/u:k7pcphvx][/b:k7pcphvx] (see the link)/the chorae embedded in No-God's carapace. I think what we have here is an example of a truly inhuman villain. And as for how the No-God fits into the metaphysical scheme of things, I think he's the evil opposite/shadow of the positive aspects of divinity represented by the Tree of Life. He's an embodiment of the qliphoth, [b:k7pcphvx]the Anti-God, the Tree of Death.[/b:k7pcphvx] By the way, has anyone else noticed that between monotheism, polytheism, and monotheism-polytheism synthesis there hasn't been a mention of a dualistic religion yet? I think we'll see dualism have its comeuppance, and the real theological truth is a synthesis of monotheism, polytheism, dualism, and pantheism, where all four approaches are true but not the whole truth. I think we'll even get to include atheism in the mix on the basis that the "gods" are just incredibly powerful extradimensional entities that have to obey the normal laws of magical physics same as everyone else. I think there are a lot of connections, but Kabbalah and qliphoth in particular is such a vague and contradictory subject and not particularly well represented in Wikipedia I don't think I'll continue this post. view post


posted 25 Apr 2008, 19:04 by Vomikron Noxis, Candidate

Very interesting -- I need to make sure and bone up on all of that before I do my first re-read of the trilogy. By the way, I've found the following Kabbalah text very easy to read and quite insightful. The graphic design/presentation is excellent, presenting everything with a combination of straight-forward language and excellent visuals. http://www.amazon.com/Total-Kabbalah-Br ... 0811861376 One of the great things about Bakker's books has been how they force me to reevaluate the way I look at my self and the universe. This is just one more example of it. ~rl view post


Re: No-God's questions posted 12 Jun 2008, 00:06 by Cripdamind, Candidate

i subscribe the theory that the no-god is a human soul or the sum of all human souls not currently inhabiting a body. those questions are exactly what i imagine a man who got his eyes poked out and has amnesia would ask. he doesn't seem to hold any malice towards achamian/seswatha in the dreams, nor kellhus in his head, he's just confused. someone said they pity the no-god and i agree, he seems to be a tragic figure. i hope he breaks free of the consult and beats the brakes off them. something i noticed in the TWP or maybe it was TTT is when that old dude whispers in kellhus' ear that "there is but one tree in kyudea and your father dwells beneath," and kellhus chops off his head. then in TWP when kellhus is strung up on the circumfix he sees a figure whom he identifies as the no-god sitting under a tree on a hill. and when kellhus finds the tree his father dwells beneath he notices it is on a hill. this struck me as some form of fore-shadowing. either that or it's a coincidence, and there seems to be far too many other corolating events throughout the stories that this is simply a coinkydink. maybe moenghus is the no-god, or maybe we're all the no-god? view post


Re: No-God's questions posted 02 Jul 2008, 18:07 by Nerdanel, Peralogue

It's funny how differently people interpret the character of the No-God. I for one don't think he was enslaved by the Consult. Rather I think the Consult tried to enslave too mighty an entity and got themselves enslaved. If the No-God had been merely a superpowered attack dog there wouldn't have been all these mentions of serving it. And as I said, I think the TREE in the vision was the No-God. view post


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