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The Aspect-Emperor posted 19 Jan 2007, 20:01 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

As the old topic started by Madness was accidently deleted, as some of you should already know, I have recreated the topic in hopes that active posters will again write their speculations once more on the upcoming book. view post


Predictions? posted 29 Jan 2007, 21:01 by Whiskeyjack, Candidate

If your wondering about predictions for the next book, I have one. I have a hunch that the Seswatha dreams will change and that the past may possibly be changed throwing the Dunyain ideas of the logos into chaos. Just a thought. view post


posted 29 Jan 2007, 21:01 by Phil, Candidate

This is not so much a prediction as a request, but... Give us more of the Nonmen! We know there are still some left, and we know that the Consult knows pretty much everything that happens in Ishteberinth (or whichever mansion it is), so let's see them :) PS - I think that Akka's dream changed because Kellhus hypnotised him. I know he dreamt after that and did not notice any differences, but I get the idea that he did not dream the actual "fall of the No-God dream," which may be the only one that changed. Kellhus has done something to him, I predict. Either way, I can't wait for the next series :) Screw the sci-fi book, give me more of this! One of the best series I have ever read. Ooh, and I also think that Kellhus will become the No-God at some point, for reasons I've stated elsewhere. On the re-read, I noticed that the words "WHAT DO YOU SEE?" are repeated many times throughout the series, often by Cnaiur thinking it of Kellhus. Also somewhere else where someone thinks that of the God when a sorceror is speaking cants, sorry that I can't be more specific. Kellhus, the God, the No-God. Too many links, imo. view post


posted 31 Jan 2007, 17:01 by Whiskeyjack, Candidate

The hypnotizing theory is a good one, I hadn't even thought of that before, but it makes perfect sense. I completely forgot about the fact that Kellhus has communed with Seswatha directly. :? I'm not convinced that Kellhus will become the No-God, but I do think another clue to support your prediction could be seen the final battle with the Cishuarim. Kellhus himself becomes the vortex of a whirlwind to protect himself from the Chorae of the Fanim. A tactic learned from the No-God perhaps? view post


posted 31 Jan 2007, 23:01 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Whiskeyjack":sbyo54ly]The hypnotizing theory is a good one, I hadn't even thought of that before, but it makes perfect sense. I completely forgot about the fact that Kellhus has communed with Seswatha directly. :? I'm not convinced that Kellhus will become the No-God, but I do think another clue to support your prediction could be seen the final battle with the Cishuarim. Kellhus himself becomes the vortex of a whirlwind to protect himself from the Chorae of the Fanim. A tactic learned from the No-God perhaps?[/quote:sbyo54ly] Did he commune with Seswatha, or with Achamian's subconscious (and removed whatever blocks Mandate conditioning had put there?)? Kellhus, the master of conditioning, surely knew what steps to take. From the glossary we know of only the one sorceror that transcended death, and it was Shauriatas not Seswatha. Seswatha took extraordinary steps that his mission would survive his death, but for mine it's wrong to refer to him as a living being. Like you, I am also not sold on the idea that Kellhus could become the No-God, even despite the vortex at Shimeh and Kellhus' brilliant baiting of Aurang, "the No-God, he speaks to me in my dreams, he says you abandoned him on the plains of Mengedda" (that is paraphrased). Kellhus, for all his lack of morality, is human, and he is learning to be more human. view post


posted 01 Feb 2007, 01:02 by Whiskeyjack, Candidate

I still think it could have been Seswatha that he communed with. The ceremony allowing the madate schoolmen to become accompllished casters requires a mummified body part, prob. of Seswatha. Seswatha is prob. floating around in some sort of outside realm as some sort of demi-god, the Mandate scoolmen being his contact to the world. Or not. :lol: view post


posted 01 Feb 2007, 12:02 by U-Boat, Commoner

I think Kellhus will become anti-mankind in the Aspect Emperor. And his son by Esmi, who will be 18-19, and the young Moenghus will play big roles, I think. And wishful thinking tells me Akka will save the day. :lol: view post


posted 01 Feb 2007, 20:02 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote:2pneuu42]I still think it could have been Seswatha that he communed with. The ceremony allowing the madate schoolmen to become accompllished casters requires a mummified body part, prob. of Seswatha. Seswatha is prob. floating around in some sort of outside realm as some sort of demi-god, the Mandate scoolmen being his contact to the world. Or not. [/quote:2pneuu42] The ceremony involves the potential Mandate Schoolmen to touch Seswatha's heart afterwhich they have the Dreams. The touching of the heart has no factor on them becoming accomplished casters, the touching of the heart is mainly to show the horrors of the Apocalypse and prevent the Second Apocalypse from happening and allows Mandate Schoolmen to go under extreme torture without giving any information, as seen in WP with Akka. view post


posted 01 Feb 2007, 21:02 by Whiskeyjack, Candidate

Touching of the mummified heart of Seswatha may allow for more than just the dreams though. This is world of magic, and as such one must be ready to allow for possibilities like Seswatha's continued existence. He may yet be around in some other-worldly form. The touching of the heart is a ceremony which gains the initiate the right to learn the greater incantations of the school. So in effect it does play a factor for becoming an accomplished caster. view post


posted 01 Feb 2007, 21:02 by Phil, Candidate

I'm not so sure that Seswatha himself is floating around inside Achamian, but I am sure that a part of Achamian's subconscious is convinced that it [i:16n4ec82]is[/i:16n4ec82] Seswatha. Which to all intents and purposes here, that's pretty much all that counts. So if Kellhus can convince the part of Akka that thinks it is Seswatha that he should be allowed the Gnosis... what's to stop him doing all sorts of things to "Seswatha," like changing the dreams or altering "his" memories. view post


posted 01 Feb 2007, 22:02 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote:2t7n5ys7]Touching of the mummified heart of Seswatha may allow for more than just the dreams though. This is world of magic, and as such one must be ready to allow for possibilities like Seswatha's continued existence. He may yet be around in some other-worldly form. The touching of the heart is a ceremony which gains the initiate the right to learn the greater incantations of the school. So in effect it does play a factor for becoming an accomplished caster.[/quote:2t7n5ys7] A part of Sewatha lives through all Mandate Schoolmen I dont really think he exists in an otherworldly form as youmay be describing but rather lives through Mandate Schoolmen, and when I said earlier that the ceremony has no effect on an initiate becoming an accomplished caster I meant more in the form that the touching of the heart has no direct effect on an initiates casting ability, but the way you said it originally led me to believe you thought the touching of the heart made them better casters not allowed them to continue their training, if I knew thats what you meant originally I wouldn't have said anything. view post


posted 02 Feb 2007, 15:02 by Whiskeyjack, Candidate

Yes, I concede that Seswatha may not exist in an otherworldy form, but through the Mandate Schoolmen. I do think that there is still some magic at work between the Seswatha of the past and the Schoolmen of the present. I hold to my prediction that Kellhus will find an error in the Logos, in the face of a realization that what comes after may influence what comes before. In other words he may actually be trapped in the thrall of prohecy. As for the argument that the glossary gives a date of death for Seswatha as evidence that he is no longer around, and that Shauriatas is the only Sorceror to have gained immortality, I argue that a good writer can lead his audience astray with clever deceptions in his glossary. Erickson does it in his books, and we know that Scott is a fan of Erickson's series. view post


posted 03 Feb 2007, 17:02 by Madness, Peralogue

My thanks to Warrior-Poet for reposting this thread though unfortunately not in it's original state. Some things, however, cannot be helped. I initially posted this thread with the hope that it would draw engaged speculators who would share in my goal of discerning the state of events in the opening pages of The Aspect-Emperor. I wrote with the aspiration of providing a solid factual foundation for speculation towards this goal. My ambition remains the same this second time posting with the further aspiration of providing a more in depth and developed base. To begin, once again, the original quote by Cû'jara Cinmoi that I feel more speculators need to take to heart in their Aspect-Emperor speculations. [quote:8pasmkvt]All I can say is that AE will put the [i:8pasmkvt]whole[/i:8pasmkvt] world into play. :twisted:[/quote:8pasmkvt] In the same thread from which I draw this quote Mr. Bakker writes that he intended to design the Thousandfold Thought glossary to be as much that as a teaser for the next instalments of Eärwa. Many of the building blocks in our foundation will then, obviously, be drawn from the glossary with the hope that we can piece together the small, and intentionally vague, facts Cû'jara Cinmoi has left us with at the end of The Thousandfold Thought into the larger puzzle that will be The Aspect-Emperor series. As I intend this to serve as our speculative basis I beg any reader who finds contradiction to what I present as fact or speculation to post. I want there to be consensus in what is written in this thread to aid us in our goal. I truly do believe and hope, however impossible it may seem, that we can discern at least some truths of The Aspect-Emperor before ever being engulfed by Cû'jara Cinmoi's world anew. The following I present to you as fact and, I believe, intelligent reasoning. A basis for our own probability trance as it were. [b:8pasmkvt][u:8pasmkvt]The Five Tribes of Men[/b:8pasmkvt][/u:8pasmkvt]: [i:8pasmkvt]The Ketyai[/i:8pasmkvt]: Typically black-haired, brown-eyed, dark-skinned. Predominant about the Three Seas. [i:8pasmkvt]The Norsirai[/i:8pasmkvt]: Typically blond-haired, blue-eyed, fair-skinned. Predominant along the northern fringes of the Three Seas. [i:8pasmkvt]The Satyothi[/i:8pasmkvt]: Typically black-haired, green-eyed, black-skinned. Predominant in the nation of Zeüm and southern extremities of the Three Seas. [i:8pasmkvt]The Scylvendi[/i:8pasmkvt]: Typically dark-haired, pale-blue-eyed, and fair-skinned. Predominant in and around the Jiünati Steppe. [i:8pasmkvt]The Xiuhianni[/i:8pasmkvt]: Typically black-haired, brown-eyed, olive-skinned. The only tribe of Men that remained in Eänna beyond the Great Kayarsus. Throughout the events of the First Holy War we mainly encounter the Ketyai, Norsirai, and Scylvendi through the eyes of Cû'jara Cinmoi's characters. The Satyothi make brief appearances throughout the novels but for the most part we know little of Zeüm or it's inhabitants. Interestingly enough, according to the Thousandfold Thought glossary, Zeüm is the source of the finest steel in the Three Seas. The Xiuhianni on the other hand we know absolutely nothing about apart from what we can infer based on some key excerpts from the Thousandfold Thought glossary. According to the excerpts [b:8pasmkvt]Breaking of the Gates[/b:8pasmkvt], [b:8pasmkvt]The Chronicle of the Tusk[/b:8pasmkvt], and [b:8pasmkvt]Xiuhianni[/b:8pasmkvt] we know that [i:8pasmkvt]The Chronicle of the Tusk[/i:8pasmkvt] ends with the determination of four tribes of Men to invade Eärwa. We also know that the Xiuhianni, for their own reasons, refused to follow the other four tribes through the Gates. However, whether the Xiuhianni have since moved across the Kayarsus into Eärwa is open to debate. In my perusal of The Thousandfold Thought glossary yesterday I stumbled upon the entry [b:8pasmkvt]Jekhia[/b:8pasmkvt]. It reads as follows: [b:8pasmkvt]Jekhia[/b:8pasmkvt]: A tributary nation of High Ainon, famed as the mysterious source of chanv, located at the headwaters of the River Sayut in the Great Kayarsus. The Men of Jekhia are unique in that they exhibit [i:8pasmkvt]Xiuhianni[/i:8pasmkvt] racial characteristics. Regardless, based on the above quote by Mr. Bakker and by the fact that they are in the glossary at all, we know that the Xiuhianni have a role to play in future events whether we can speculate on them or not. [b:8pasmkvt][u:8pasmkvt]Houses, Nations, and Kings[/b:8pasmkvt][/u:8pasmkvt]: Aethelarius VI - King of Atrithau and last of the line of Morghund Nrezza Barisullas - King of Cironj Nersei Eukernas II - King of Conriya Musammu Chinjosa - King-Regent of High Ainon Coithus Eryeat - King of Galeoth Hringa Rauschang - King of Thunyerus House Biaxi - One of the Houses of the Congregate House Trimas - One of the Houses of the Congregate House Coithus - Ruling dynasty of Galeoth House Daskas - One of the Houses of the Congregate House Gaumum - One of the Houses of the Congregate House Hoga - Ruling dynasty of Agansanor House Ikurei - One of the Houses of the Congregate House Kiskei - One of the Houses of the Congregate House Ligesseras - One of the Houses of the Congregate House Morghund - Ruling dynasty of Atrithau House Nersei - Ruling dynasty of Conriya House Thallei - One of the Houses of the Congregate House Surmante - One of the Houses of the Congregate House Zerxei - One of the Houses of the Congregate Zeüm - A mysterious and powerful Satyothi nation beyond Nilnamesh Nilnamesh - A Ketyai nation on the extreme southwest edge of the Three Seas Cingulat - A Ketyai nation on the north western coast of Kutnarmu, south of Nilnamesh Bar a couple names that have either slipped from my memory - I've been happily laden reading my christmas books lately and it's been awhile since I've immersed myself in the Prince of Nothing - or have never been mentioned, the above are the Kings and nations that now, unknowingly, fall under Aspect-Emperor Anasûrimbor Kellhus's domain. In the past I have had many posters respond who've been quite adamant about the fact that they [i:8pasmkvt]believe[/i:8pasmkvt] that upon opening the first book of The Aspect-Emperor we will find all the nations of the Three Seas squarely under Anasûrimbor Kellhus's rule. This is not an implausible suggestion; it's even a rather likely one. As immense and amazing as Cû'jara Cinmoi's world is throughout the Prince of Nothing what many posters fail to realize, or perhaps just disregard all together, is that Kellhus has only been dealing with the chosen military leaders from their respective nations. Though these individuals stand high in their nation's respective rankings these are not the rulers of the Three Seas that unwittingly find themselves below Kellhus in hierarchy following Maithanet's proclamation at the end of The Thousandfold Thought. Again, I know that upon opening the pages of The Aspect-Emperor these matters will probably have been long resolved in the intervening events between The Thousandfold Thought and The Aspect-Emperor. However, the only possible way to discern the state of the initial pages of The Aspect-Emperor is to speculate on those intervening events. As I've written before, probably in this same deleted thread, as far as I've concerned at the end of The Thousandfold Thought the only realm Kellhus has actual control over is Kian and what was the Nansur Empire. My main question for speculation is how will Kellhus deal with the individual rulers of the Three Seas. I foresee problems for him particularly with the Kings of Cironj, Galeoth, and Thunyerus. Demanding further speculation are the Nations of Zeüm, Nilnamesh, and Cingulat. These [i:8pasmkvt]nations[/i:8pasmkvt] have been almost entirely omitted from the events of the First Holy War aside from brief references. If Kellhus's goal is truly bent towards the end of Consult defeat he will definitely need the might and collaboration of all Three Seas factions especially ulterior ones. [b:8pasmkvt][u:8pasmkvt]The Schools, wizards and witches[/b:8pasmkvt][/u:8pasmkvt]: The School of Mandate - Gnostic School The School of Mangaecca - Gnostic School The Imperial Saik - Anagogic School, indentured to the Nansur Emperor The Scarlet Spires - Anagogic and Daimotic School, de facto rulers of High Ainon The Circle of Nibel - Sorcery unknown though I assume Anagogic or at least a variation of The Mysunsai - Anagogic School, originally comprised of three minor Schools: the Mikka Council from Cironji, the Oaranat from Nilnamesh, and the Nilitar Compact from Ce Tydonn Drusas Achamian - Gnostic Wizard and adherent of Seswatha Besides the Wizard Achamian the above are the "Major Schools" of the Three Seas. Now I've read many arguments regarding the Schools and sorcerous factions. Many state that Kellhus will make a so-called "super School" of Gnostic sorcerers or that he will dissolve the many Schools and make the Mandate individual beyond control of the Gnosis. I've found intelligent reasoning behind none of these arguments. The Schools of the Three Seas definitely must be speculated upon in order to discern anything of The Aspect-Emperor. As the sorcerous factions stand to be one of the most influential factors in future events, to not ponder upon their actions would be irresponsible of us as speculators. Though the Quorum of Mandate appear in the ending scene of The Thousandfold Thought at Kellhus's side we must remember that at this time they intend to use Kellhus as a tool. It can be argued that we know nothing of the initial meeting between Kellhus and the Quorum, however, we do know that they've remained sceptical of his prophetic status and believe wholly that they will control his actions pertaining to the Consult and not vice versa. The Scarlet Spires and the Imperial Saik are the only other two Schools that we experience throughout the First Holy War's events aside from, briefly, the Mysunsai. By the end of The Thousandfold Thought the Scarlet Spires have been weakened as a School. I believe they still have an intelligent grandmaster at their head albeit a slightly demented one. Specifically due to Iyokus's lack of belief in Kellhus and his Daimotic prowess leads me to believe the Scarlet Spires still have a role to play. As for the Imperial Saik, they're in line for a new grandmaster. As to whom I couldn't say, however, I think we are assured that the Saik land squarely in Kellhus's pocket. As we read in one of Conphas's narratives in The Thousandfold Thought: [quote:8pasmkvt]The Imperial Saik . . . revered their traditions. They took deep pride in the fact that they alone honoured the old Compactorium, the ancient indenture that had bound all the Schools to Cenei and her Aspect-Emperors in Near Antiquity.[/quote:8pasmkvt] Ironically, the above quote could prove the undoing of any sorcerous speculations, mine or otherwise. Perhaps Kellhus will seek to revive certain ancient indentures. Also, the witches of the three Seas. I'd yet to consider the witches of the Three Seas in my speculations until reviewing the inept arguments of one of my opposition and a few quotes by Cû'jara Cinmoi. [quote:8pasmkvt]As for witchcraft, this issue does come up later. The most I'll say is that it's an informal 'folkloric' form of the Anagogis[/quote:8pasmkvt] [quote:8pasmkvt]The only question out of these that doesn't find itself pinned to a important part of the future story has to do with women and sorcery (and even then!). Yes, as many women are born to the 'Few' as men, but due to oppression, they have no formal tradition as such: they're typically burned as witches. Neither the Schools nor the mundane powers tolerate sorcery outside the aegis of the Schools, so wizards suffer much the same fate. I think I should cut it short there, since it becomes quite significant in AE.[/quote:8pasmkvt] We learn in The Warrior-Prophet that Achamian has had a run-in with a Sansori witch. Furthermore, though never explicitly stated, I believe Achamian kills the witch and steals a few of her belongings, obviously, Wathi Doll inclusive. It is likely that any witches of the Three Seas stay clear of the central nations due to their persecution at the hands of both the religious and sorcerous factions. There is even likely a handful of wizards scattered around the extremities of the Three Seas. From the above two quotes by Cû'jara Cinmoi as well as another that I've omitted due to not being able to find it, I come to the conclusion that Drusas Achamian might have a few more run-ins with the female Few of the Three Seas. As my opposition, Ulyaoth, has suggested in another debate - and I'm now inclined to agree due to Mr. Bakker's quotes - we may find Drusas Achamian seated by an entirely different fire throughout The Aspect-Emperor. Again as Ulyaoth suggested, Achamian could find a use incorporating the forkloric Anagogis into his increasing Gnostic prowess. Lastly, and most importantly, - as I've already started a bit above - in sorcerous speculations: Drusas Achamian. Probably my favourite character of the Prince of Nothing aside from Kellhus. I've never connected so much to a character as Achamian aside Cnaiür; specifically his madness. Now I won't reiterate my whole argument surrounding Achamian spending, at least some of, the intervening years between novels in Ishterebinth. If you'd like to read more you can do so [url=http://forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?t=1014&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30:8pasmkvt][u:8pasmkvt]here[/u:8pasmkvt][/url:8pasmkvt] where myself and Ulyaoth were in the process of hashing it out quite thoroughly. To sum it up, in light of no contrary evidence or more intelligent reasoning, I believe that Achamian may journey to Ishterebinth in order to sue for Nonmen support. I believe there is no better place for him to gain allies or power towards the end of Consult defeat. The teachings of the Gnosis that Nonmen Siqu and Quya could impart to Achamian would prove invaluable in his quest. Likewise, I'm sure that Achamian's tales of Consult skin-spies throughout the Three Seas will shock the Nonmen of Injor-Niyas into looking inwards towards their own House. [b:8pasmkvt][u:8pasmkvt]The Dûnyain[/b:8pasmkvt][/u:8pasmkvt]: Pragma Jeükal - Senior brethren of the Dûnyain Pragma Meigon - Senior brethren of the Dûnyain Pragma Uän - Senior brethren of the Dûnyain Anasûrimbor Moënghus - Exiled brethren of the Dûnyain Anasûrimbor Kellhus Though the Dûnyain of Ishuäl only appear briefly in the Prince of Nothing series in the prologue of The Darkness That Comes Before, I'm entirely convinced that Mr. Bakker is not yet finished with this devious monastic sect. I've included the Anasûrimbors Moënghus and Kellhus in this list because they are the only two Dûnyain to have left Ishuäl in 2000 years. Whether or not they can be considered Dûnyain, or even alive in Moënghus's case, at the end of The Thousandfold Thought is open to debate, however, their actions throughout all we have read and experienced stand as an indication of the dormant power lying in the Demua mountains. We know that the Dûnyain Moënghus left Ishuäl following a raid by Sranc. Moënghus was sent out into the world to see if the Dûnyain's seclusion was threatened and assured that it was not, Moënghus returned only to be exiled; compromised by the world he had only briefly experienced. After thirty years in Eärwa surrounded by worldborn men, even weakened in ability by his Cishaurim blinding, Moënghus still had none among them he could call his brethren. After realizing the Thousandfold Thought during his long hours in the probability trance in the Mansion beneath Kyudea, and after his interrogations of the skin-spies, he realizes that only a whole Dûnyain could overcome the enormous circumstances presented by the Consult and the apocalypse. Now at the end of The Thousandfold Thought, again, I'm entirely convinced that Cû'jara Cinmoi has plans for the Dûnyain. As I've iterated before, once again I think in this very deleted post, I do not think that Kellhus is the most able or most intelligent Dûnyain from among them. However, I think the most we can speculate upon due to the Dûnyain's elusive nature is how they will join the events of the Three Seas. I'm, obviously, open to suggestions regarding anything I've written or will write. In this instance I feel there are only two options: The Dûnyain Anasûrimbor Kellhus feels the Dûnyain are a threat towards existence in that they believe what is compliant has to be isolated from what is unruly and intractable; the World from the Outside. In the Dûnyain the Consult have possible strong allies depending on who breaches their isolation. I haven't thought of anything that suggests to me that Kellhus will try and reach the Dûnyain. It seems to me he believes them contently isolated. On the other hand, I can see the Consult using Cnaiür to find them. Again what is assured is that the Dûnyain will appear in the Three Seas in more force in the future novels. [b:8pasmkvt][u:8pasmkvt]Nonmen[/b:8pasmkvt][/u:8pasmkvt]: Injor-Niyas - The last remaining Nonmen nation Ishterebinth - The last of the Nonmen Mansions, also known as Ishoriöl Nin-Ciljiras - The last surviving Nonmen King Nil'giccas - The Nonmen King of Ishterebinth Cil-Aujas - Lost Nonmen Mansion The above are all that remains of the ancient Cûnoroi nations of old. Just to reiterate here as to not confuse anyone, Nin-Ciljiras is King in Ishterebinth. I've put Nil'giccas in as a curiosity. Nil'giccas was King of Ishterebinth during the First Apocalypse. Anasûrimbor Celmomas II and Seswatha, Grandmaster of the Sohonc, treated with Nil'giccas and the Nonmen after which the Nonmen of Injor-Niyas joined the coalition of the First Ordeal. Between the First Apocalypse and the end of The Thousandfold Thought something happens in Ishterebinth that displaces Nil'giccas as King. However, I can find nowhere stating that the former King dies. Even his glossary entry is implicative as Nil'giccas's states (? - ) and Cû'jara Cinmoi's states (? - ?) as we know he died. Aside from that, the Cûnoroi of Eärwa must be speculated upon, I guess with the same import of everything else in this post. As I iterated, the Cûnoroi were the first foes of the Inchoroi and you could say their war has lasted more then 4 millennia. I, again, won't reiterate my speculations on Achamian breaching their mountain fastness. This I believe is one of the most logical ways for Mr. Bakker to bring the Nonmen back into the heart of events. As well, as it's in the same thread, I won't repeat my thoughts on Cil-Aujas. However, while I've been writing and in past speculations I've come to a different theory. While I don't give much credit to it, as I believe Cet'ingira is firmly Erratic and on the Consult's side, it has always struck me kind of odd that Mekeritrig was wandering Sobel with only a handful of Sranc. What if Mekeritrig, at first under the guise of Consult instruction, returns to Ishterebinth and rejoins the Cûnoroi against the Inchoroi? [b:8pasmkvt][u:8pasmkvt]The Consult[/u:8pasmkvt][/b:8pasmkvt]: Cara-Sincurimoi - The No-God Aurang - Inchoroi Prince and Horde-General to the No-God Aurax - Inchoroi Prince Cet'ingira, also known as Mekeritrig - Nonmen Erratic Shaeönanra, also known as Shauriatas - Grandvizier of the Mangaecca Just wanted to say, before I begin writing of the Consult, that I apologize for any variation of post quality. This post has taken me awhile to write and parts I don't believe are up to my standard of writing. However, I hope it hasn't been too boring to read. In The Thousandfold Thought glossary under the entry [b:8pasmkvt]No-God[/b:8pasmkvt] Cû'jara Cinmoi has written "The entity summoned by the Consult." This stands with my speculations of the No-God as I believe him to be an entity rather than a force of nature. Despite that I also believe that the best explanation of the No-God's nature lies [url=http://forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?t=1548&start=15:8pasmkvt][u:8pasmkvt]here[/u:8pasmkvt][/url:8pasmkvt] under [i:8pasmkvt]Guest[/i:8pasmkvt]'s entry. It definitely ties into other snippets of the No-God's nature that Cû'jara Cinmoi has left us with. Furthermore, I believe Cara-Sincurimoi is closely tied to the Aporos. In The Warrior-Prophet in one of Achamian's dreams, Seswatha describes the Carapace as "indented with choric script." As well, the Carapace itself is a [i:8pasmkvt]nimil[/i:8pasmkvt] sarcophagus. These things lead me to believe that the Inchoroi needed more help from the Nonmen Aporic practicitioners than people realize. As for Aurang and Aurax, the surviving Inchoroi: Throughout the novels we only experience Aurang of the Inchoroi. I do have a sneaking suspicion that the Inchoroi we encounter with Aëngelas and the Werigda is Aurax, but that is mute point. We know that Aurang's task throughout the First Holy War is the direction of the various skin-spies who've infiltrated the various factions. We also know that the Consult's stake in the war was the destruction of the Cishaurim thinking that it was their sorcery that allowed them to discover the skin-spies. However, soon that goal, though accomplished, becomes tainted by the unanswered question: [i:8pasmkvt]Who are the Dûnyain[/i:8pasmkvt]? This is what Aurang spends most of The Thousandfold Thought trying to figure out. For me, my mainly unanswered question of the Consult throughout the Prince of Nothing is this: Why did the Consult kill Ikurei Xerius III? As for Aurax, the only real basis for speculation I can lay down is that in The Thousandfold Thought glossary it states that he was the one who initially teaches the remnants of the Tekne to the Mangaecca. Cet'ingira remains an ambiguity. What was he doing in Sobel with only a handful of Sranc while Aurax, or Aurang, travels Gâl with a company of Sranc and Nonmen Erratics? Was he truly only "searching for trauma" as Cû'jara states Nonmen are prone to do or was there deeper reason? Finally, Shauriatas: it's apparent that Shauriatas came to some success in his study of soul-trapping sorceries. It's likely that by the end of The Thousandfold Thought he is a talented Aporic sorcerer as well as a Gnostic one. It's also likely that himself, Mekeritrig, and any original Nonmen Aporic practitioners among the Consult are very responsible for the No-God and his Carapace. However, until the return of the No-God to Eärwa it's likely that Shauriatas, Mekeritrig, and Aurax will not have more active roles in Three Seas events. They are obviously quite busy experimenting with the Tekne. Once again, I apologize for what I feel is an obvious decline in articulation and overall technique in my writing towards the end of this post. Nearing the end of this, I've just wanted to see it posted rather than continually having to find time to write. I hope, again, that it was at least somewhat enjoyable. To finish, I want to reiterate once again my goal in writing this post. I hope that between any speculators among us here on the three-seas forum can discern at least some truths before ever immersing ourselves in Cû'jara Cinmoi's world again. view post


posted 05 Feb 2007, 22:02 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Madness":3vyqivhc]............................. For me, my mainly unanswered question of the Consult throughout the Prince of Nothing is this: Why did the Consult kill Ikurei Xerius III? .........................[/quote:3vyqivhc] I think I can least speculate on this one specific question; as to the others there are insufficient data. As far as we know, the secular and religious institutions of the Three-Seas were riddled with Consult skin-spies, and until the arrival of Moenghus and Kellhus, they had remained undetectable. The skin-spies were apparently able to tolerate some extraordinary individuals within these bodies, for instance Maithanet. Unlike Maithanet, Ikurei Xerius was not a supporter of the Holy War and thereby unfriendly to the immediate Consult aim of the destruction of the Cishaurim, whom they (the Consult) thought had developed some means of detecting their spies. Both Skaeos and the Dowager Empress (whose name I forget and who were probably imposters at the time) had expressed their misgivings with regard to the compact with the Fanim, and Ikurei's agreement to the Fanim's retention of Shimeh. On the other hand the Consult could have killed Ikurei Xerius earlier, but the immediate heir to the Nansur throne (Conphas) supported his uncle's policy and was even more friendly to the Fanim. The upshot of all this was that Ikurei Xerius was superfluous as far as the Consult were concerned and the Consult were probably looking for another house to assume the imperial mantle and vigourously prosecute the Holy War. Events moved too quickly, when Ikurei detected the imposture of one of the Skin Spies it then turned the emperor off - this skin spy was apparently maddened by a lust for both copulation and murder, it got a little bit carried away but that's the problem with these creatures. view post


posted 06 Feb 2007, 11:02 by Nauticus, Auditor

Wow. Just, wow. Very informative. I enjoyed the read thoroughly. view post


posted 07 Feb 2007, 09:02 by U-Boat, Commoner

Seeing as the book is rumoured to happen 20 years from the events of TTT, I'm thinking mini-Moenghus and the child of Esmi-kellhus could also have parts to play. Thoughts? view post


posted 07 Feb 2007, 22:02 by Madness, Peralogue

They most definitely do have parts to play, U-Boat. As readers of the novels, we know that Mr. Bakker does not write without motive. Since we do not know the personalities that these characters, Moënghus and Esmenet's and Kellhus's yet unnamed child, will develope in their first 20 years of life we cannot actively speculate on what roles they may play in the twilight before the Second Apocalypse. However, there are things we can infer in order to see a sliver of their future selves. Firstly, Serwë's child Moënghus. I believe little Moënghus is certainly going to have the more interesting upbringing as well as a contrasting character to that of his unborn sibling. Though Moënghus will be raised by Kellhus and Esmenet as Serwë and Kellhus's child, there is no doubt in my mind concerning who Moënghus's father really is. Despite the ambiguity of Cû'jara Cinmoi's writing I do not doubt that Cnaiür is the father and that Serwë was completely delusional in regards to Kellhus's fathering. This itself provides some interesting insights to whom Moënghus will become. At the time we, the readers, encounter Cnaiür urs Skiötha of the Scylvendi he has been slowly going insane for thirty years due to his own encounter with the Dûnyain Moënghus. In the two year events of the First Holy War following his second Dûnyain encounter with Kellhus, we witness Cnaiür go very quickly insane. I myself can attest to the hereditary attributes of madness. Now while Mr. Bakker contests inherent traits of history and custom throughout the novels, I wouldn't doubt if Moënghus does inherit personality traits of both Cnaiür and Serwë. Perhaps Cnaiür's abnormal Scylvendi intelligence or Serwë's vanity. Again, just minute speculations; food for thought. As well, we have to take into account that the only other man aside from Kellhus who knows Moënghus's true heritage is Cnaiür himself; a living relative even. The Consult may eventually use Cnaiür to get to Kellhus through Moënghus or Cnaiür, the mad aspect he is, may just feel the need to approach Moënghus as a father. Concerning the younger Moënghus, I believe his eventual actions and personality will be of a darkly sort in Kellhus's new world. However, as I said, in contrast to the mystery regarding Moënghus's future we have already been provided a glimspe into his sibling's eventuality; Nau-Cayûti. Most of us have either surmised or read Mr. Bakker's parallels between Kellhus and Celmomas II, Achamian and Seswatha, and Esmenet's unborn child and Nau-Cayûti. If not, I'm a strong believer that these parallels will become more focused in The Aspect-Emperor novels. In this light we have, at least a little, understanding of the unborn child's future. Whereas most readers are assured that Kellhus is the father of Esmenet's child, I am not. I believe Esmenet and Achamian's reunion on the hilltop over Shimeh is not coincidence, nor the fact that Achamian only notices her childbearing bulge following his return to Shimeh at the end of The Thousandfold Thought. While it is likely that Kellhus is the father, I wholly believe Cû'jara Cinmoi wrote the above scenes with the intent of instilling doubt and providing more attune parallels to the First Apocalypse. I think it likely that upon Kellhus and Achamian's reunion, Achamian and the unborn child may become fast friends. Perhaps Achamian will return from his sabbatical to Ishterebinth bearing news of doom and at his knees beneath the Warrior-Prophet "holy" Aspect-Emperor throne Kellhus will ask Achamian to teach his son. Regardless, overall as children reared by Kellhus both Moënghus and his unborn sibling will prove to be the exceptional and heroic individuals we expect them to be and that their generation will need in the hours before the Second Apocalypse. view post


posted 07 Feb 2007, 23:02 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Madness":1lzxbq9b] Whereas most readers are assured that Kellhus is the father of Esmenet's child, I am not. I believe Esmenet and Achamian's reunion on the hilltop over Shimeh is not coincidence, nor the fact that Achamian only notices her childbearing bulge following his return to Shimeh at the end of The Thousandfold Thought. While it is likely that Kellhus is the father, I wholly believe Cû'jara Cinmoi wrote the above scenes with the intent of instilling doubt and providing more attune parallels to the First Apocalypse. .........[/quote:1lzxbq9b] Given the circumstances of Achamian's and Esmenet's parting and the start of her relationship with Kellhus, there can be little doubt of the paternity of her unborn child. Esmenet removed her contraceptive charm (useful item! it beats the pill and there's no side effects) only after the abduction of Achamian. Achamian had congress with Esmenet only after Esmenet knew was pregnant. Unless reproductive cycles function differently in the Three-Seas, Kellhus is clearly the father of Esmenet's child. view post


posted 08 Feb 2007, 07:02 by U-Boat, Commoner

I hope it actually isn't like a total parallel of the 1st apocolayse. I'm actually hoping here that Kellhus turns evil, simply because I hate him, and then Achamian gets to save the world, and gets together with Esmenet again. Long live happy endings! :lol: view post


posted 17 Mar 2007, 18:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

New synopsis for Aspect Emperor sheds a few details on next book. Which apparently will be called [u:rqtzrnlf]The Great Ordeal[/u:rqtzrnlf](Aspect-Emperor) [quote:rqtzrnlf]Some twenty years have passed since the events narrated in The Prince of Nothing. Anasurimbor Kellhus now rules all the Three Seas, the first true Aspect-Emperor in a thousand years. The masses worship him as a living god, though a few, the Orthodox, dare claim he's a walking demon. With Proyas and Saubon as his Exalt-Generals, he leads a holy war called the Great Ordeal deep into the wastes of the Ancient North, intent on destroying Golgotterath and preventing the Second Apocalypse. Esmenet, meanwhile, remains in Momemn, where she struggles not only to rule his vast empire, but their murderous children as well. And Achamian, who lives as a Wizard in embittered exile, undertakes a mad quest to uncover the origins of the Dunyain. [/quote:rqtzrnlf] view post


posted 17 Mar 2007, 23:03 by Madness, Peralogue

Wow. Just wow. Thank you Warrior-Poet for starting off my paddy's day celebrations with that tidbit. view post


posted 18 Mar 2007, 03:03 by Curethan, Didact

Ye, neat! view post


posted 19 Mar 2007, 02:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I think soon we will need a new section for [u:174vnloy]The Great Ordeal[/u:174vnloy] view post


posted 20 Mar 2007, 19:03 by RazorSmile, Candidate

[quote="U-Boat":wgj3qr5i]I hope it actually isn't like a total parallel of the 1st apocolayse. I'm actually hoping here that Kellhus turns evil, simply because I hate him, and then Achamian gets to save the world, and gets together with Esmenet again. Long live happy endings! :lol:[/quote:wgj3qr5i] Dude, Kellhus is already evil. He was evil from his very first appearance in [i:wgj3qr5i]Prince of Nothing[/i:wgj3qr5i]. ------------- *reads the new synopsis* Ahhhh, new material. Yeessssssss ... Ok. "The Orthodox," I'm guessing is the remnant of the Anagogics led by Iyokus, perhaps together with the remnants of fundamentalist Inrithi who have yet to fall for Kellhus' charms. Where's Maithenet while all this is going down? "murderous children" huh? Hee! There is no part of the bit about Achamian that I do not like [img:wgj3qr5i]http://forum.spacebattles.com/forumimg/smilies//biggrin.gif[/img:wgj3qr5i] view post


posted 20 Mar 2007, 19:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote="RazorSmile":3ovhxf4s][quote="U-Boat":3ovhxf4s]I hope it actually isn't like a total parallel of the 1st apocolayse. I'm actually hoping here that Kellhus turns evil, simply because I hate him, and then Achamian gets to save the world, and gets together with Esmenet again. Long live happy endings! :lol:[/quote:3ovhxf4s] Dude, Kellhus is already evil. He was evil from his very first appearance in [i:3ovhxf4s]Prince of Nothing[/i:3ovhxf4s].[/quote:3ovhxf4s] Wrong Kellhus was amoral in the very beginning which isnt the same as evil because his ethics were different. Now he may possibly be considered good or evil depending on how he has changed over the past 20 years. view post


posted 22 Mar 2007, 09:03 by Curethan, Didact

Any idea of a release date for the hardcover? I did a quick google search and could only find UK release date for the paperback - 1 March 2008... view post


posted 22 Mar 2007, 20:03 by Nauticus, Auditor

I'm going out on pure assumption here, and it may be a wild guess. I believe Kellhus isn't evil, but instead actually believes the prophecy of the Second Apocalypse through his name. Hence declaring a Holy War to destroy Golgotterath. His exile of Achamian, I believe, was out of fear more than hate - fear that Achamian is the one who suspects Kellhus as the Harbringer. That said, if Baby Moenghus is, in fact, the child of Kellhus and not Cnaiur, [i:1tph35s7]he[/i:1tph35s7] would be the Harbringer. The prophecy stated that an Anisurimbor will come at the end of the world. Nobody knows how long Kellhus or Moenghus were there, but the child is coming - born of the world, so more in-tune with the prophecy. That's nothing new, but I think that, with the birth, Baby Moenghus will contrast Kellhus, and will grow to be the 'bad guy', so to speak. Perhaps even a reincarnation of the No-God himself. view post


posted 22 Mar 2007, 21:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote:3erjxulw]His exile of Achamian, I believe, was out of fear more than hate - fear that Achamian is the one who suspects Kellhus as the Harbringer. [/quote:3erjxulw] Just for clarification Akka exiled himself, Kellhus asked Akka to stand at his side and Akka did his renouncing of his school, prophet, etc. As for Baby Moenghus Im still almost positive that the child absolutely is Cnauir's however that doesnt really matter, the child is still regarded as Kellhus'. Though I dont think it really matters which Anasurimbor is the Harbringer because all the Harbringer means is that the Second Apocalypse is coming so the possibilities are huge for who the Harbringer could actually be. As for the bad guy role, I agree it likely will be one of his kids and the synopsis supports that somewhat. view post


posted 23 Mar 2007, 00:03 by Nauticus, Auditor

I've never been so successfully proven wrong, yet somewhat-agreed with before ;) I've heard [i:3fi5seog]The Great Ordeal[/i:3fi5seog] could be released as early as January 2008, with the US release around March. view post


posted 23 Mar 2007, 14:03 by Mithfânion, Didact

Madness, [quote:32h4fz0q]Now at the end of The Thousandfold Thought, again, I'm entirely convinced that Cû'jara Cinmoi has plans for the Dûnyain. As I've iterated before, once again I think in this very deleted post, I do not think that Kellhus is the most able or most intelligent Dûnyain from among them. [/quote:32h4fz0q] Just on this particular note I have to quibble. Scott has already stated that [i:32h4fz0q]" Kellhus is considered a Prodigy, even among the Dunyain" .[/i:32h4fz0q] Any of the Dunyain would apparantly be able to dominate normal men, but Kellhus most especially. Which, it has to be said, has indeed been established in the text sofar. view post


posted 23 Mar 2007, 23:03 by Madness, Peralogue

It's been a number of weeks since I've had the time to relax at home; too long since I've posted extensively. Near the end of February I lost my internet for a number of weeks and found myself posting sporadic morsels while on breaks at work. It seemed déjà vu everytime I'd sit to post; I'd find my thoughts starting to flow, my mind bursting with speculations, only to have to return to the mundane art of cabinetry. When myself and my home connection were reunited I thought I'd finally find more time to write and post. However, I soon became immersed in the search for a new home, a search that ended in the last couple days when I stumbled upon a cozy one bedroom apartment near my current one. Once again, I'd thought my exclusion by ulterior influences at an end. I was quickly and forcibly dissuaded of the notion once my girlfriend and I brought a new feline into my home; which is no easy task with a previous resident cat. While they are still in seperate areas of the apartment, each happily secluded with the necessities and scratch towers, they've decided for the moment to cease attempted intrusions into the other's zone. I now take this opportunity, finally, to write of The Great Ordeal. As always, no matter what my situation in the past, I've stopped in everyday over the past weeks to read through threads and posts that have caught my attention. Again, as always, there are more than a few that incite me to write, though unfortantly, I've restricted myself to this thread whilst I can post at all. Once again, I'd like to thank Warrior-Poet for bringing the synopsis to our attention. I've since, and likely many of you have as well, discovered that the synopsis is from the [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk:2j2u6i9v]Amazon UK[/url:2j2u6i9v] website. Again, as many posters have suggested already, I think that we can look forward to a pre-March release of the novel with the exception of possible postponence. I'm sad to admit that even the small glimpse into Eärwa c. 4132 Year-of-the-Tusk provided by the synopsis of The Great Ordeal completely obliterates many of my own speculations surrounding the initial pages of The Aspect-Emperor novels. However, I believe I have a better grasp on Cû'jara Cinmoi's direction and can now speculate more intelligently. Throughout this and other threads regarding The Aspect-Emperor, I've maintained in my speculations that in a world as real as the one Cû'jara Cinmoi has created, future events could be discerned and would, inevitably, be decided by the personalities and relationships of his characters. I don't believe I'd suggested, as Curethan - in a fashion - asserted I did, that the events of the Second Apocalypse would mirror the First but that the personalities and relationships of the Second would mirror the First. Once again, I reiterate that I believed the parallels between Seswatha and Achamian, Kellhus and Celmomas II, and Esmenet's unborn child and Nau-Cayûti were evident and intentional. My first insight, or rather, revelation provided the synopsis, due to lack of more appropriate words, completely floored me. While this is, of course, just speculation, I believe my own assertions regarding the parallels of relationships undone by this insight and furthermore, Curethan may just have to eat his... hat, I think you said? As we all know, Cû'jara Cinmoi may write The Aspect-Emperor as a dualogy or a trilogy. As well, there is a third series to complete this tale of Eärwa, the title of which we are not yet privy to, which may also be a dualogy or trilogy. Anywhere between seven to nine books in total. Hense, came the revelation of The Aspect-Emperor series. Anasûrimbor Kellhus is going to die. I inferred this after reviewing the three possible ending of The Great Ordeal. Again, this is all just speculation and, even though I'll likely be mistaken again, I believe it's warranted. - The holy war dubbed The Great Ordeal, proclaimed by The Aspect-Emperor Anasûrimbor Kellhus, travels north towards Golgotterath and the indomitable Consult. The Great Ordeal succeeds overcoming Golgotterath and the Inchoroi. With a possible three to five more books, we are left with the revelation that there is something worse than the Inchoroi. - The Great Ordeal marches to Golgotterath and after the Third Great Investiture by Men the coalition of forces fragments; The Consult once again labours in peace to resurrect their vile lord. - The Great Ordeal marches. Overcomes hordes of Sranc, Nonmen Erratics, and possibly even the Scylvendi. During the siege Anasûrimbor Kellhus is struck down by the servants of the Inchoroi. One of his children carries on his war. Once again, I reiterate, these are only speculations. However, Kellhus dying leaves the story open for many possible plotlines. I hate to cut this short but my friday night is coming through the apartment door on me. Friends come to celebrate. I'm sad to read that for whatever reason, Achamian has become obsessed with the Dûnyain. It seems to me he, regardless of words stated and thoughts rehearsed at the end of The Thousandfold Thought, is as a bitter man whose love is perpetually stolen from him. However, I'll leave this and all above as food for thought. Perhaps, if and when Anasûrimbor Kellhus dies, Achamian discovers the Dûnyain and entreats another to take on Kellhus's role of saviour. Mithfânion - I hadn't read that before but thanks for the insight. I'd thought I'd covered most of White Lord's and Cû'jara Cinmoi's hash outs. view post


posted 24 Mar 2007, 08:03 by Curethan, Didact

quote]Throughout this and other threads regarding The Aspect-Emperor, I've maintained in my speculations that in a world as real as the one Cû'jara Cinmoi has created, future events could be discerned and would, inevitably, be decided by the personalities and relationships of his characters. I don't believe I'd suggested, as Curethan - in a fashion - asserted I did, that the events of the Second Apocalypse would mirror the First but that the personalities and relationships of the Second would mirror the First. [/quote] ? So the characters and their relationships will determine what happens, and the characters and their relationships mirror those individuals from the first apocolypse. OK. But things will work out differently??? That's not what you seem to imply. It is an interesting point you make about the characters and their relationships deciding the future of Earwa. This is one of the central themes that is explored in the series (and in many of my other favourites). Does a man control his own path or are events determined by destiny, the gods or in this case - the darkness that comes before. The question of fate vs free will. view post


posted 24 Mar 2007, 21:03 by Holsety, Candidate

[quote:3pgfbmdl]It is an interesting point you make about the characters and their relationships deciding the future of Earwa. This is one of the central themes that is explored in the series (and in many of my other favourites). Does a man control his own path or are events determined by destiny, the gods or in this case - the darkness that comes before. The question of fate vs free will.[/quote:3pgfbmdl] I just want to note...one thing I've liked about Bakker's work is that the Inchoroi and the evil guys are...IMO sort of overshadowed by the core cast of characters. view post


posted 25 Mar 2007, 23:03 by Madness, Peralogue

I don't really intend for this to be a long post, I just wanted to respond to Curethan's latest post concerning my arguments. Though I can't recall of which of them your argument exhibits, as it's been awhile since my high school philosophy class, I recall enough to see that your argument wholly embodies one of the fallacies of diversion. It is very true that my assertions can be interpreted as Curethan has; it is, however, a major misrepresentation of what I'd intended, regardless of the eventual validity of my speculations. It is true that pre-insight into The Great Ordeal I'd forcibly asserted that the personalties and relationships of the Second Apocalypse would mirror those of the First. The fact that many readers other than myself support the existence of the parallels proves that they are intentional. Following my read of The Great Ordeal synopsis however, as I've sadly admitted, many of my speculations were flatly disproved; I'd, in fact, almost given up on speculation of Eärwa, intent on resigning myself to solely enjoy the journey of Cû'jara Cinmoi's writing. The fact that I'm writing now indicates how long that notion lasted. As I've iterated, I believe I now have a better grasp on Cû'jara Cinmoi's direction and mindset. I still, perhaps half-heartedly, assert that the relationships and personalities of the Second Apocalypse will mirror those of the First. My own deterrent to this assertion are the possible motives of Drusas Achamian. As I've written, I'm sorely disappointed that Achamian is apparently so obsessed with the Dûnyain; the only reason for this, as we readers know, is that Esmenet was "stolen" from him. I am a strong supporter that in Eärwa, as in the real world, the intricate commune of souls determines events. We, as Cû'jara Cinmoi's characters, are all beautiful small pieces of the infinitly large mosaic of life. As Achamian writes and the Dûnyain assert, the world turns on the seemingly small and insignificant events between persons. As the Dûnyain assert the world, on an impossibly large and incomprehensible scale, follows the laws of cause and effect, a soul being one domino of many. However, to assert that because personalities and relationships are parallels that events will parallel as well is ignorant. At the end of The Thousandfold Thought, Drusas Achamian and Anasûrimbor Kellhus have been estranged due to a women, Kellhus's wife, in the opening hours of the Second Apocalypse. Again, though anor has provided sufficient evidence to doubt, it is arguable that Cû'jara Cinmoi wrote of Esmenet and Achamian's reunion overlooking Shimeh to instill doubt of the parentage of Esmenet's unborn child. In the opening hours of the First Apocalypse, which for basis of argument I will assert as when Celmomas II declares the First Ordeal, Seswatha and Celmomas II are estranged due to insinuations of Sharal's adultery. This instilled doubt of Nau-Cayûti's parentage. Furthermore, we now, as I've said, have many insights into The Great Ordeal provided by the seemingly vague synopsis. Perhaps the emotionally deluged Kellhus and Achamian will be reunited as friends. The relationship between them and Esmenet, as well as their parallels, do not, however, imply that Kellhus and Achamian will be reunited as Kellhus dies in Achamian's lap, beneath the horns of Min-Uroikas and the ramparts of Golgotterath. Neither does it imply that Achamian and Esmenet's child will journey into Golgotterath nor on any quest for the Heron Spear. In fact, the synopsis itself likely disproves that. I feel my argument turning to rambles here; as well, time is slipping on me as I have to prepare for dinner. I'll leave you all with a couple points which we need to keep in mind during our Great Ordeal speculations. Once again, as with my original Aspect-Emperor post, I call all fans of the series to speculate on the pages of The Great Ordeal and beyond. - Cil-Aujas: Cû'jara Cinmoi has written multiple times that he has devious intentions for this supposedly abandoned Nonmen Mansion in the mountains of the Three Seas during the timeframe of The Aspect-Emperor books. I myself have written speculations on either the Consult or Achamian using the Mansion as a base of operations within the Three Seas. - Ishuäl: The Dûnyain's own mountain fastness. Though used by the Kûniüric High Kings, the fact that in Ihrimsû, the tongue of Injor-Niyas, Ishüal means "Exalted Grotto" and Ishterebinth means "Exalted Stronghold." Leads me to believe that Ishüal may have been part of Injor-Niyas long before it ever belonged to the Norsirai domain. - Anasûrimbors of the Dûnyain: I've written elsewhere, and I'm surprised that I've read no other speculations, that I believe it very possible Kellhus has siblings and Dûnyain children among the offspring of Ishuäl. Cû'jara Cinmoi has hinted at more Dûnyain, specifically, at least a female, exiting the monastic fastness; perhaps that female is related to, as Mithfânion corrected me, the prodigy Anasûrimbor Kellhus. view post


posted 26 Mar 2007, 04:03 by professor plum, Peralogue

I don't have TDTCB on-hand to check, but beneath Ishüal lie the "Thousand Thousand Halls", correct? (Where those Dunyaïn "tainted" by Moënghus's sorcerous dream went to die.) That [i:gyj4ffny]has[/i:gyj4ffny] to be a Mansion. view post


posted 26 Mar 2007, 06:03 by Curethan, Didact

You got me, Madness. I wasn't really arguing against you - merely pointing out the way that I felt the general speculation was turning. The assertion that the 2nd apolocolypse would mirror the 1st was mine anyway; designed as an example of where taking parallels between the characters therein would lead if taken too far (in that case to an spurious and unlikely conclusion) - which I still believe many have. My main thrust was that the comparisons and parralels you see are important more to characters such as Akka and Esme and how they see themselves than they are to the future narrative. Its an entirely personal assesment that cannot be succesfuly argued one way or the other (unless you're Scott). The role of the dunyain in future events and what has already occured is where most people will be surprised, in my opinion. I was speculating on this myself the other day, and I wonder if anyone could help enlighten me on something. I don't have my copies of the series at the moment, but can anyone recall any hints or reasons given that Moenghus left the Dunyain in the first place? I'd appreciate it. view post


posted 26 Mar 2007, 10:03 by Mithfânion, Didact

[b:8nxl9gh5]I don't have my copies of the series at the moment, but can anyone recall any hints or reasons given that Moenghus left the Dunyain in the first place? I'd appreciate it. [/b:8nxl9gh5] I assume you simply mean why Moenghus turned to the Chisaurim? This was explained in the books. Moenghus was ordered to scout for what was surrounding Ishual and coming too close to it. When he returned from his mission the Dunyain exiled him because in their vision, he ha dnow been contaminated by the outside world. Ultimately he ends up with the Cishaurim, clearly the wrong choice for him afterwards, and shows the ability to provoke dreams in the minds of other Dunyain, thousands of miles away, demanding the release of his son. view post


posted 26 Mar 2007, 21:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Moved to new forum. view post


posted 28 Mar 2007, 06:03 by Curethan, Didact

Thanks, Mithfanion. The question was why the Dunyain sent him out in the first place - you've supplied the answer there - "scouting". ....very interesting.... *narrows eyes thoughtfully* view post


posted 28 Mar 2007, 21:03 by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

[quote="Madness":129mmws9]Now at the end of The Thousandfold Thought, again, I'm entirely convinced that Cû'jara Cinmoi has plans for the Dûnyain. As I've iterated before, once again I think in this very deleted post, I do not think that Kellhus is the most able or most intelligent Dûnyain from among them.[/quote:129mmws9] allthough Kellhus may not be the most able-minded/bodied of the dunyain, we must take into account that he is, in fact, an anasurimbor. even if this did not provide him with any inborn ablility to become a leader of men, the surname itself would put him at a higher veiw point than other dunyain as far as world-born men are concerned. also we must take into account that khellus may not be the only anasurimbor amoung the dunyain. with a small number of people interbreeding for two thousand years it is neither reasonable nor plauseable that kellhus and moengus are the only two living bearers of that surname. how or if this would tie into the story is niot what im getting at i guess as i am merley expressing my opinion view post


posted 29 Mar 2007, 01:03 by LuckyPierre, Commoner

[quote="Madness":27fqjpf2]From the above two quotes by Cû'jara Cinmoi as well as another that I've omitted due to not being able to find it, I come to the conclusion that Drusas Achamian might have a few more run-ins with the female Few of the Three Seas. As my opposition, Ulyaoth, has suggested in another debate - and I'm now inclined to agree due to Mr. Bakker's quotes - we may find Drusas Achamian seated by an entirely different fire throughout The Aspect-Emperor. Again as Ulyaoth suggested, Achamian could find a use incorporating the forkloric Anagogis into his increasing Gnostic prowess. .[/quote:27fqjpf2] Of course! Esmenet is one of the few. That's how she knew Achamian was a Sorcerer within minutes of meeting him. view post


posted 29 Mar 2007, 13:03 by Harrol, Moderator

It is rumored but as far as I know not confirmed that the Anasurimbor have non man blood in them. This would account for their exceptional genetics. view post


posted 29 Mar 2007, 14:03 by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

i had forgotten that. but that being the case, would that mean the dunyain do as well? view post


posted 29 Mar 2007, 15:03 by Twayleph, Auditor

It is confirmed that the Anasûrimbor do have Nonmen blood : [quote:1ecp49ju]820 - The Rape of Omindalea. Jiricet, a Nonman Siqû to the God-King Nincarû-Telesser II (787-828), rapes Omindalea (808-825), first daughter of Sanna-Neorjë (772-858) of the house of Anasûrimbor in 824, and then flees to Ishterebinth. When Nil’giccas refuses to return Jiricet to Ûmerau, Nicarû-Telesser II expels all Nonmen from the Ûmeri Empire. Omindalea conceives by the union and dies bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825- 1032), called ‘Twoheart.’ After a house-slave conceives by him, Sanna-Jephera is adopted by Sanna-Neorjë as his heir. [/quote:1ecp49ju] view post


posted 29 Mar 2007, 15:03 by Harrol, Moderator

Thanks Twayleph. I remebered reading about it i just could not find it. view post


Question regarding Kellhus/Moenghus posted 29 Mar 2007, 16:03 by gemrich, Commoner

Disclaimer. I am new to the forum, and just completed reading the three books over the past month or so. Your understanding of the books is staggering, so I figured I would pose this rather simple question to you. Why does Kellhus kill Moenghus. It has been suggested by others on the website that Kellhus may be working to oppose the coming of the 2nd Apocalypse (which I don't agree with). However, if we accept that argument, then I don't understand why he kills his father (many on the website argue that because Kellhus regards his father as still Dunyain, and if we take that all the way to its conclusing, that Moenghus is in fact a potential supporter of the 2nd Apocalypse). This is where I get confused. Even after re-reading their encounter I don't get any of the Moenghus supporting the coming of the 2nd Apocalypse thing. In fact I get quite the opposite (one reason why I see Kellhus not being a good guy as the story continues). I am clearly missing something and would appreciate some clarification. I would also be interested in reading your insight into Kellhus and how his character changes over the course of the three books. We don't experience his character through his thoughts very much during TTT, and I was left confused as to his motives (perhaps this was purposeful). Thank you. view post


posted 30 Mar 2007, 17:03 by TheDarkness, Peralogue

Hey gemrich, I found your post just now and thought it was funny cuz i just posted this, "Kellhus has gone through many transformations thourght the PON series. Where in the first two books you see his struggles and glimpse his indecision, his POV is offered much less in TTT. " along with more on the Kellhus' state of mind thread. To the question of why Kellhus killed his father i would submit this answer, becase he can. By the time of this encounter it is obvious, atleast to me, that he has become what we would describe as "full of himself" he believes himself a god and the new writer of history. while agree that he can and does change history at will, he is not a god. One could infer that he is carrying out his initial mission given to him by the Dunyain, which was to cleanse the dunyain of the disgraceful sourcerous Moenghus. But i dont think so. As far as the Apocalypse is concerned, i don think Kellhus cares either way if the second one happens or not. I think he is power hungry and is aware of the history of his name. He will attempt the unthinkable...an attack on Golgotterah, both to avenge his name and to test himself, to ensure the he truly is a diety, which he still might doubt. another reason to kill his father, to consolidate his place as the single most powerfull being the world. Cant wait to see what happens, but i do miss the POV of Kellhus it has been a journey from obscurity to supremecy. It was lacking from TTT and i hope it comes back in some form, maybe through his sons in AE. view post


posted 31 Mar 2007, 20:03 by Andrew, Peralogue

disagree. he kills his father because his father remains Dunyain. view post


posted 01 Apr 2007, 22:04 by shockwave, Candidate

I'm sorry if this is not directly related to the speculating, but it suddenly came to my mind. The moment Kellhus is sent out by his fellow, senior, Dunyains, to assassinate his father because he is tainted by the Outside World.. Kellhus must know that after doing that, if he returns, he will be killed as well. He cannot travel all the way to find his father, with all the pitfalls and hazardous (as far as that is possible for a Dunyain) 'adventures' in between without being 'tainted' as well. He will have contact with outsiders and have to infiltrate deeply, as he has done. So he should be killed as well, upon returning. Did he set out initially, knowing that, and doing it for the good of the Dunyain? I can accept that his devotion was so deep at that time that he simply carried out this mission and accepted the consequences, but what of these implications now? Is he still pursueing the Consult because they threaten the isolation of Ishual, he is Dunyain after all (tho more ;) ) or as most of you here think, does he do it because he believes in the prophecy? In which case he has fallen in the trap he digs so often for others. Say what someone wants to hear and they will believe it, and thus make it so. End of transmissioned ramble. view post


posted 02 Apr 2007, 00:04 by Jamara, Auditor

I have often pondered the same thing. I have come to three conclusions. The first is that the Pragma never intend to allow Kellhus to return. He was sent out to assassinate Moenghus because he was affecting their dreams. He was threatening to taint them and destroy their isolation. The purpose of the dreams was that Moenghus wanted his son. Which brings me to my second point. Moenghus wanted Kellhus. The Pragma must have surmised that Kellhus would eventually become tainted, especially when confronting his father. And I am sure, as a thirty year old Dunyain, Kellhus had a very good idea that he would never return to Ishual. My third conclusion was that either way, it really doesn't matter anymore. He has no plans to return to Ishual, so what does it matter if he can't. The only reprecussion would be if the Pragma sent an assassin. However, there is an arguement here that the Pragma at least understand sorcery. Moenghus could only communicate in the dreams of Dunyain whom he knew, and knew where they slept. We know that all of those Dunyain that he contacted committed suicide after Kellhus left. At first I thought it was because they viewed themselves tainted. But now I'm wondering if they didn't kill themselves so that Moenghus could no longer communicate through their dreams. view post


posted 02 Apr 2007, 00:04 by Buckethead, Peralogue

don't the dunyain send the others who were contacted by moenghus to death? this is what i remember... they were sent to the thousand thousand halls to die? (maybe i'm wrong) going into the outside world to assasinate your father is probably far more appealing to a dunyain than death. also, who says moenghus has to know the dunyain personally or where they sleep? i think you are going off of what we know of the workings of the gnosis rather than the psukhe. i don't remember any specifics of the capacity of the psukhe being discussed... other than their inability to create skin spies and the fact that it is of passion rather than intellect. view post


posted 02 Apr 2007, 01:04 by Buckethead, Peralogue

i don't think kellhus would appreciate a second apocalypse much on the grounds that the power he wields to this point and his life (yes even his life) would be in jeopardy if the consult were to ressurect the no-god. i tend not to see kellhus as invincible, i see him as being more akin to the tick: "nigh-invulnerable". view post


posted 02 Apr 2007, 02:04 by Buckethead, Peralogue

[quote:zqbeypaq]also, who says moenghus has to know the dunyain personally or where they sleep? i think you are going off of what we know of the workings of the gnosis rather than the psukhe. i don't remember any specifics of the capacity of the psukhe being discussed... other than their inability to create skin spies and the fact that it is of passion rather than intellect. [/quote:zqbeypaq] i take it back... in TTT moenghus does mention that he can only contact the dunyain that he knew, or rather confirms kellhus' inquiry. view post


posted 11 May 2007, 03:05 by Cataracts, Commoner

Well, this is my first time posting here and I just finished the series yesterday and wow, it was one of the best series I have ever read and I am anticipating the publication of the next book... Anyway I have a question, since Esmenet is possibly about 4-5 months with child, then couldn't HER child end up being the harbinger since it will come shortly after little Moenghus. Just a thought and I wanted some second opinions. view post


posted 11 May 2007, 03:05 by Harrol, Moderator

Well it could be but my money is still on Kellhus being the harbinger. view post


posted 11 May 2007, 04:05 by Cataracts, Commoner

I wonder how long it will take Achamian to end up before kellhus again as well and how long he will spend learning about the Dunyain view post


posted 11 May 2007, 07:05 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="gemrich":26okkuwn]Why does Kellhus kill Moenghus.[/quote:26okkuwn] Kellus kills his father because he surmises that the goals of the Dunyain (isolation) are essentially the same as the Consult(isolation from the outside world). TTT pg 374: "The crimes you've committed, Father...the sins ... When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi. As Dunyain, you will be compelled to master the consquenes of your wickedness. Like the Consult, you will come to see tyranny in what is holy...And you will war as they war." TTT pg 375: "For the Dunyain, it was axiomatic: what was compliant had to be isolated from what was unruly and intractable." - of course here the "compliant" is the world and the "unruly" is the Outside. Thus, Kellus thought that eventually the Dunyain would seek to seal themselves from the Outside through the extermination of life just as the Inchoroi. view post


posted 12 May 2007, 22:05 by Madness, Peralogue

It's been nearly two months since I've had the time or motivation available to write, let alone post, something which I regret deeply. Regardless, I've visited the three-seas forums daily, even thrice daily at times, in order to read current speculative threads. As always, despite the lack of speculation as of late, nearly every thread incited me, made me wish to return to write. Since Warrior-Poet's posting of the synopsis in mid-March, I've aspired almost daily, such is my fanaticism, to write another post such as my Aspect-Emperor one. My ambition this third time around is to incorporate the seemingly vague synopsis of The Great Ordeal into my past speculative foundation, removing those speculations proved wrong and adding many that have since spawned. This is, once again, my call to all readers of Cû'jara Cinmoi's novels, members and non-members alike, to post and speculate on the unfolding events of the Second Apocalypse. I reiterate again, anything I post I present as fact or intelligent reasoning. Those who find fault with what I write, I urge to come forward and offer more intelligent contradictions. As the Dûnyain assert, only through the collapsing of less probable inferences can we deduce Cû'jara Cinmoi's devious and meticulous plans for Eärwa. To begin, once again, the two quotes that I feel must serve as the concrete of our otherwise speculative foundation: [quote="Cû'jara Cinmoi":28l3l6s1]All I can say is that AE will put the [i:28l3l6s1]whole[/i:28l3l6s1] world into play. :twisted:[/quote:28l3l6s1] [quote:28l3l6s1]Some twenty years have passed since the events narrated in The Prince of Nothing. Anasurimbor Kellhus now rules all the Three Seas, the first true Aspect-Emperor in a thousand years. The masses worship him as a living god, though a few, the Orthodox, dare claim he's a walking demon. With Proyas and Saubon as his Exalt-Generals, he leads a holy war called the Great Ordeal deep into the wastes of the Ancient North, intent on destroying Golgotterath and preventing the Second Apocalypse. Esmenet, meanwhile, remains in Momemn, where she struggles not only to rule his vast empire, but their murderous children as well. And Achamian, who lives as a Wizard in embittered exile, undertakes a mad quest to uncover the origins of the Dunyain.[/quote:28l3l6s1] [b:28l3l6s1][u:28l3l6s1]The Three Seas[/u:28l3l6s1][/b:28l3l6s1]: [i:28l3l6s1]The Aspect-Emperor Anasûrimbor Kellhus[/i:28l3l6s1]: As many posters asserted, long before the unveiling of The Great Ordeal's synopsis, in the opening pages of The Aspect-Emperor series we shall find the Three Seas squarely under the rule of the "divine" Anasûrimbor Kellhus. Even despite the few Orthodox whom remain, the masses worship Kellhus as a living diety. The question of Kellhus's prophetic status is, perhaps, the single most important debate pertaining to Eärwaen future. I have two friends whom I'm fortunate enough to discuss these novels with in person every so often. I can think of no more heated debate even amongst the three of us, let alone these forums. I do [b:28l3l6s1]not[/b:28l3l6s1] believe Anasûrimbor Kellhus to be a prophet. Delusional or emotionally deluged but not a prophet. As this is so debated, I do not assert this as part of our foundation. I merely feel compelled to address the subject as best I can as it's implications are so far-ranging in regards to everything Three Seas. To the peoples of the Three Seas, Anasûrimbor Kellhus is another Sejenus, another Seswatha, heir to the greatest dynasty of the Ancient North. He has "reinterpreted" the Tractate and the Tusk, as his "counter-part" Inri Sejenus did two millennia prior. However, I believe that Mr. Bakker has written of these warring faiths to mirror the impotence and convolution of the faiths in our own reality. And this is provides reason for my skepticism. To believe in Anasûrimbor Kellhus is an Inrithi prophet then you must believe all that implies about the philosophy of Eärwa. To believe in the Warrior-Prophet is to accept the Inrithi religion and it's world philosophies as true, regarding the innumerable aspects of the God and the Outside. As is in our own world, I do not believe that the Men of Eänna nor Eärwa have uncovered the truth concerning the metaphysics of their reality. In light of this, I cannot count the amount of false speculation here on the forums that accepts the Outside as fact. To myself, the only proof we have of the Outside we owe to Iyokus and the Daimos. Now, the purpose of the above writings in relation to the Three Seas is paramount. Those of you who havn't yet read them, should read anor and Harrol's posts in the General Discussion board. The underlying theme of their short-lived discussion is one that, depending on how Cû'jara Cinmoi tweaks it, may prove imaginative and astounding in hindsight. I am of the firm belief that upon opening the crisp pages of The Great Ordeal we will find an emotionally deluged Kellhus. Kellhus as Dûnyain was my favorite character throughout the Prince of Nothing, as I've always believed a person with no moral limitations is capable of anything. However, should speculations prove correct, I think Kellhus who has fallen victim to emotions, a man who was once Dûnyain, will prove even more interesting. The overall question asked by both anor and Harrol pertains to how Kellhus will change the Three Seas society. Make no mistake, Kellhus will rewrite the underlying memes regarding the commune of souls; the question is how. [i:28l3l6s1]Zeüm[/i:28l3l6s1]: A mysterious and powerful Satyothi nation beyond Nilnamesh, and the source of the finest silks and steel in the Three Seas. Based on the many speculations, both large and minute, regarding the Satyothi nation to the southwest, the implication is that due to it's size and mystery Zeüm and it's inhabitants have a large role to play in the future events of Eärwa. An even greater indicator is that no Aspect-Emperor in history has ever conquered the Satyothi nation. We know from Cû'jara Cinmoi's quote above and his ingenious writing that likely all the pieces of his world have some role to play. We also know from the synopsis of The Great Ordeal that [b:28l3l6s1]all[/b:28l3l6s1] of the Three Seas belongs to Anasûrimbor Kellhus's domain. In twenty years, Kellhus certainly could have invaded Zeüm. I believe it more likely both due to it's size and [b:28l3l6s1]Domyot[/b:28l3l6s1]'s glossary entry that Kellhus will treat with Zeüm at some point, though perhaps even not in The Great Ordeal. A final thought of Zeüm, even of sorcery itself, pertains to its possible, and probable, sorceries. We know of the Daimos, the Aporos, the Anagogis, and the Gnosis. We know of the folkloric Anagogis of the Three Seas witches. I've iterated many times before that I don't believe we've encountered all of Eärwa's sorceries. [i:28l3l6s1]Nilnamesh[/i:28l3l6s1]: I only write of Nilnamesh due to Moënghus's explaination of viramsata. Obviously, the nation belongs to Anasûrimbor Kellhus's domain, however, a minute point for speculation. [quote:28l3l6s1]Across the plains surrounding the city of Invishi, the ruling caste-nobles are very remote, very effete. The [b:28l3l6s1]narcotics[/b:28l3l6s1] they cultivate assure them of the obedience of their populations.[/quote:28l3l6s1] [b:28l3l6s1][u:28l3l6s1]The March[/b:28l3l6s1][/u:28l3l6s1]: I have spent long hours pondering Kellhus's own Great Ordeal. Like his ancestor, Celmomas II, before him, Kellhus's Ordeal is facing a likely still hypothetical threat. Though the skin-spies have been uncovered, as the Dûnyain Kellhus and Moënghus are/were the only two whom can recognize them for what they are, I'm sure that the Consult can sufficiently implement them into the Three Seas again. Likely then, the Consult will know that Anasûrimbor Kellhus has called a holy war against them. Their reaction, however, is what interests me. As we experience Aurang's perspective throughout the First Holy War we learn that the advent of the Mog-Pharau's return is near. In the context of two millennia worth of experimenting, I take it as anywhere in the next hundred years. I return to a belief I held in my original Aspect-Emperor post; simply, that we will witness the advent of the No-God sometime during the events narrated in The Aspect-Emperor series. Based on the above speculation, I'm moved to questions. Will the Consult contest the Great Ordeal's march northward? If no, will they then be content to let the Sranc harass the march as they will and wait until the Ordeal reaches Golgotterath? Furthermore, the cities of Atrithau and Sarkarpus will likely be liberated, freed from Sranc oppression. I'm curious as to what sort of mark Kellhus left on the peoples of Atrithau during his initial journey south. During March, Mithfânion wrote in another post that Cû'jara Cinmoi will organize his latest novel into point of views again, likely, if not, absolutly, including new characters. This spawned an interesting thought which, it seems, many posters have failed realize. The School of Mandate, however it survives following the events of The Thousandfold Thought, is vindicated. They are going north with the Great Ordeal. An interesting POV, one which I think Cû'jara Cinmoi could plausibly be writing, is one of a younger Mandate sorcerer-of-rank. Unlike Mandati of past years, a sorcerer inducted into the ranks at this time, will have been reared during quite different events than Drusas Achamian. No longer will the Mandate be the jester of the Three Seas. No longer is their enemy an elusive myth. A final two points pertaining to the march of the Great Ordeal, two speculations of my own which I assert as truths. The Great Ordeal called by Anasûrimbor Kellhus will ultimately meet defeat, another Ordeal broken and dashed against the twin horns of Min-Uroikas. Anasûrimbor Kellhus will die. For a moment, I'm going to pause here to iterate something that I feel many, if not all, posters need to realize about the Celmomian Prophecy. A harbinger is not a saviour, it is a signal or a sign. The Anasûrimbor Kellhus is the harbinger of the Second Apocalypse. [b:28l3l6s1][u:28l3l6s1]The Schools[/b:28l3l6s1][/u:28l3l6s1]: Throughout the events of the Prince of Nothing, the Schools have proven to be one of the most influencial factors, either directly or indirectly affecting all. Of course, then, they will remain an influencial factor in events to come. Perhaps not oft-mentioned throughout the novels, the Warrior-Prophet repents a monumental law of Inrithism as he seeks to "reinterpret" the religion. That is to say, sorcerers are no longer damned. For lack of better words, this is [b:28l3l6s1]huge[/b:28l3l6s1]. As I wrote in my original Aspect-Emperor post, I don't believe Kellhus will seek to disrupt the Schools. I've read no intelligent reasoning behind Kellhus forming a super-School or making the Mandate individual beyond control of the Gnosis. Again, as I've reiterated before, I believe he may invoke the old Compactorium, indenturing all the Schools to the Aspect-Emperor. [i:28l3l6s1]The School of Mandate[/i:28l3l6s1]: Once I had written that though we knew little of the initial meeting of Kellhus and the Quorum, we knew that the Quorum planned on inhibiting Kellhus, using him as a tool. Obviously, due to the synopsis, I cannot continue with that speculative process. However, in hindsight, I think it likely that Kellhus and the Mandati will work closely with one another. They will be his advisors, his teachers, and his guards. As well, as I wrote above, the Mandate will go north with the Ordeal. They will not miss the chance to close with their old foe once again. As I'm sure many of you know I am in complete awe of Mr. Bakker's writing. Thus, I am extremely excited to read of the Mandate's trek north. We will finally see how the Gnosis of the Mandate compares to the sorceries of the Mangaecca and the Erratics. [i:28l3l6s1]The Scarlet Spires[/i:28l3l6s1]: I feel compelled to write speculations of the Scarlet Spires simply because of Heramari Iyokus. Though Iyokus appears at the end of The Thousandfold Thought next to Kellhus and his retinue, I'm inclined to share RazorSmile's speculation that Iyokus could indeed be party to the Orthodox's efforts. Furthermore, Iyokus is not affected by Kellhus. Despite grand proclaimations and the Tusk rewritten, Iyokus knows the tormentors with whom he shall spend his eternity. Though Iyokus is likely not the only Daimotic sorcerer among the Scarlet Spires, I do believe he is the most talented one. The role of this sorcery is yet to be revealed, though a role I believe it has. A final thought on the Schools, though I've mentioned it above already. The Warrior-Prophet has decided sorcerers are no longer damned. This will change the commune between the Few and Men. The question is how? [b:28l3l6s1][u:28l3l6s1]The Cûnoroi[/u:28l3l6s1][/b:28l3l6s1]: Again, as Mithfânion has written, we will be encountering more of the Nonmen in the Aspect-Emperor books. Again, as Mithfânion wrote, Cû'jara Cinmoi has written that no Cûnoroi will have a POV in The Great Ordeal. This leads me to believe that we will be encountering mainly Erratics of the Consult. I have no doubts that the Cûnoroi of Ishterebinth will someday return to aid the Men of the Three Seas in their plight against the Consult hoards. However, it seems to me that there is just no way for their mountain fastness to be intruded upon during The Great Ordeal novel. [b:28l3l6s1][u:28l3l6s1]The Dûnyain[/u:28l3l6s1][/b:28l3l6s1]: Alot, and as you all know I mean [b:28l3l6s1]alot[/b:28l3l6s1], of recent speculation surrounding Cû'jara Cinmoi's future installments pertains to the Dûnyain. When we are left with indicators of the dormant power isolated in the Demua Mountains such as the Anasûrimbors Kellhus and Moënghus we can certainly infer that the monastic sect has momentous events to work. Now I generally disregard the conspiracy theories surrounding the Dûnyain. I do not believe the Pragma have orchestrated all events from their seclusion within Ishuäl. Nor do I believe that they practice sorceries of their own, though the Pragma certainly may understand that sorcery exists. Kellhus, after all, was taught that sorcery is a thing of fiction. Mr. Bakker has written that the Dûnyain will be joining the events of Eärwa, at least in the form of a female Dûnyain. When is really the question. We know that Achamian is searching for the Dûnyain. I was actually confused and saddened by this for a time, thinking Achamian searched for some elusive way with which to retrieve Esmenet. However, my friend pointed out something blantantly obvious to me, that I'd disregarded knowing differently from Kellhus's own POV. Achamian just straight up doesn't believe Kellhus's claim to be decended from the Anasûrimbors. I've started rereading the series again, about halfway through The Warrior-Prophet for the fifth time. One of the excerpts from the Compendium reveals something of interest, which for me, negates speculation of Achamian travelling north himself. [quote="Drusas Achamian":28l3l6s1]It seems a strange thing to recall these events, like waking to find I had narrowly missed a fatal fall in the darkness. Whenever I think back, I'm filled with wonder that I still live, and with horror that I still travel by night.[/quote:28l3l6s1] To return to the Dûnyain however. In the course of this post, I've realized that Kellhus may try returning to Ishuäl himself. While he knows that the Dûnyain may try to kill him for intruding, perhaps he has hope that he can make them understand. I've long maintained that the Dûnyain principles are correct, however, that in isolation they lack the entirety of variables. As Kellhus himself infers in one of his POVs: [quote:28l3l6s1]The Logos remained true, but its ways were far more devious, and far more spectacular, than the Dûnyain had ever conceived.[/quote:28l3l6s1] Regardless, my own speculations of the Dûnyain are as follows, as I've iterated elsewhere: I believe that Anasûrimbor Kellhus will die. I believe that Achamian, knowing what Kellhus is and how important his role is, may entreat the Dûnyain to, in secrecy, allow another of their number to leave and fill Kellhus's role. As well, I believe that the female Dûnyain may very well prove to be Kellhus's daughter, as I firmly believe that Kellhus would have had children among the Dûnyain. [b:28l3l6s1][u:28l3l6s1]The Consult[/u:28l3l6s1][/b:28l3l6s1]: The antagonists. The epitome of evil. The Inchoroi. The Mangaecca. Nonmen Erractics. The vile creations of the Tekne. I have speculated on the Consult above, a little in the march. There are a couple things I realized throughout this post and past days, that I'd like to add instead of reiterating my initial words surrounding them in my original Aspect-Emperor post. [i:28l3l6s1]Shauriatas and the Mangaecca[/i:28l3l6s1]: The Mangaecca were a Gnostic school of Sauglish. Their ethos was that knowledge is power. They are specialists of the Agonies. We know that it is possible to trap a soul. Shauriatas has been alive for an obscene three millennia, something I'd imagine he's been able to do for the rest of the Mangaecca as well. They will prove powerful Gnostic sorcerers, a match for their Nonmen Erractic allies. As well, I imagine they are talented Aporic sorcerers as well. I maintain that until the No-God is ressurected Shauriatas will remain in the shadows. However, something of note. The skin-spies have Achamian and the Mandate increasingly worried due to what they imply; that is, that the Consult is slowly mastering the Tekne. This leads me to believe that aside from Sranc, Bashrags, and Wracu, the Consult might have created other new weapon races which we may encounter throughout the future novels. [i:28l3l6s1]Mekeritrig[/i:28l3l6s1]: One of my favorite, albeit mysterious, characters throughout the novels. Cet'ingira's story, I believe, is a tragic one; revealed slightly during his interaction with Seswatha on the Wall of Dagliash. As I've written before, more times than I care to reiterate, Mekeritrig remains an ambiguity. I believe he is certainly Erratic and firmly on the side of the Consult. However, I maintain this is important. What was Mekeritrig doing wandering Sobel with only a handful of Sranc? What was his purpose there? I understand that I write this in many of my longer posts but I cannot help writing it again: I'm a strong believer that as my post lengthens my writing deteriorates, and for that I apologize. I am, however, going to slowly wrap this up. [i:28l3l6s1]The brothers Inchoroi, Aurang and Aurax[/i:28l3l6s1]: I've read in the past month much speculation on the Inchoroi: specifically, aliens or demons. I've also come to a conclusion. The Inchoroi are aliens, though as I wrote above, the epitome of evil. [quote:28l3l6s1]Achamian shrugged. "Supposedly that's what the Inchoroi told them. That they sailed here from stars that were suns."[/quote:28l3l6s1] One of anor's questions, I believe, to be answered in the upcoming books is how the Inchoroi, technological beings with spacefaring technology, resigned themselves to understanding sorcery. Based on this and a excerpt from Aurang's narratives, I believe I've come up with an answer for the metaphysic rule of Cû'jara Cinmoi's universe. I believe that each sphere of a planet, though I don't ever believe Cû'jara Cinmoi will move the story off planet, has it's own sphere of reality. I also believe that the rule of belief controlling reality stands true within any sphere of reality. This is why the Aurang states: [quote:28l3l6s1]"So long as there are Men, there are crimes. So long as there are crimes, I am damned."[/quote:28l3l6s1] I realize I'm jumping around here in thoughts but I do want to finish writing this so I can look it over and post. The Inchoroi, Aurang and Aurax, along with Shauriatas and Mekeritrig will be planning, maneuvering. They will use the Great Ordeal's failure and the advent of the No-God to strike back. [i:28l3l6s1]The Xiuhianni[/i:28l3l6s1]: I believe these Men, the last tribe, will prove to be within the firm grasp of the Inchoroi. I've long suspected that chanv is actually a creation of the Inchoroi. As well, we know that Inchoroi came into contact with the five tribes in Eänna before the Breaking of the Gates. It will be interesting to see what type of nations survive beyond the Kayarus. I realize I am just repeating myself, but I feel I need to end the post here. I will just finish with a couple quicks points concerning Esmenet and Maithanet. I don't believe Maithanet has any role to play. Why have a Shriah when the "God" himselfs walks Eärwa in the vessel of the Warrior-Prophet? Maithanet was only ever a tool of Moënghus and any import or skills Maithanet had, Moënghus was likewise responsible for. As for Esmenet and Kellhus's unborn child, I firmly believe that the Inchoroi's possession will have an effect on them both. When you think about the small instances of effect we experience from Esmenet's POV in The Thousandfold Thought and add twenty years, it's obviously going to prove important. view post


posted 13 May 2007, 05:05 by Jamara, Auditor

Kellhus' death: I really do not share Madness's oppinion that Kellhus will die. Quite frankly, my gut is telling me that he will become something worse than the No-God. However, should he die (likely during the failure of the Great Ordeal), I could definitely see Achamian taking one of Kellhus' children under his wing as the next person to fight the Second Apocalypse, just as Seswatha did. But this seems just too repetative of the history we know of the First Apocalypse for Bakker. However, should Kellhus become the antagonist of the Second Apocalypse, the scenario of Achamian and a Kellhus offspring could still apply. Chanv: Yes I have always been quite curious about the origins of this drug. I feel that enough emphasis has been placed on the unkown origins of it to have it be some plot point somewhere along the line. Iyokus: Personally, I think Kellhus will attempt to learn Daimos. To what end? Well, like I said above, I think he will become something greater and worse than the No-God. The "Whole World": This is a bold statement, but I am hoping that we get to see the homeland of the tribes of men! view post


posted 15 May 2007, 07:05 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Madness":3fb07yag] The question of Kellhus's prophetic status is, perhaps, the single most important debate pertaining to Eärwaen future. I have two friends whom I'm fortunate enough to discuss these novels with in person every so often. I can think of no more heated debate even amongst the three of us, let alone these forums. I do [b:3fb07yag]not[/b:3fb07yag] believe Anasûrimbor Kellhus to be a prophet. Delusional or emotionally deluged but not a prophet. [/quote:3fb07yag] As regards Kellhus status as prophet, whether he is shamming or not, I believe he is every bit as entitled to that status as Fane or Inrithi Sejenus. What were these two individuals but charismatic leaders, who (probably) felt that they were on a mission from God. Did these earlier prophets themselves believe the lies they told? Probably. If they didn’t, does that disqualify them as prophets; it certainly doesn’t make any difference to their faithful, whose belief is still devout. As you say, Kellhus is now the heir to Seswatha, and Celmomas, [i:3fb07yag]and[/i:3fb07yag] Inrithi Sejenus. The laity's belief in him (especially if he has modified some of the oppressive aspects of Three Seas culture) must be absolute. I don’t think Kellhus (yet) believes the lies he has told, but, as he himself contemplated, what would be the faithful’s reaction if he tried to tell them the truth. [quote:3fb07yag] To believe in Anasûrimbor Kellhus is an Inrithi prophet then you must believe all that implies about the philosophy of Eärwa. To believe in the Warrior-Prophet is to accept the Inrithi religion and it's world philosophies as true, regarding the innumerable aspects of the God and the Outside. As is in our own world, I do not believe that the Men of Eänna nor Eärwa have uncovered the truth concerning the metaphysics of their reality. [/quote:3fb07yag] Again as above, I find it hard to agree with this. To "believe" Kellhus is a prophet is to recognize that Kellhus is another salesman; a rather better one than Fane or I. Sejenus. (PS "Sejenus", that's an unfortunate choice of name, wasn't Sejenus the head of the Praetorian Guard under Caligula?) [quote:3fb07yag] In light of this, I cannot count the amount of false speculation here on the forums that accepts the Outside as fact. To myself, the only proof we have of the Outside we owe to Iyokus and the Daimos. [/quote:3fb07yag] Again, the Outside in Kellhus' world is a given. I don't think we have misinterpreted the novels if we accept the outside as facts, and the Gods as greater and lesser demons. The scepticism we have in our own world of prophets and gods and metaphysical beings (whatever theses things are) is reserved in a fantasy novel, where there is manifest proof of the same. [quote:3fb07yag] I have spent long hours pondering Kellhus's own Great Ordeal. Like his ancestor, Celmomas II, before him, Kellhus's Ordeal is facing a likely still hypothetical threat. Though the skin-spies have been uncovered, as the Dûnyain Kellhus and Moënghus are/were the only two whom can recognize them for what they are, I'm sure that the Consult can sufficiently implement them into the Three Seas again. Likely then, the Consult will know that Anasûrimbor Kellhus has called a holy war against them. [/quote:3fb07yag] Well Maithanet also could make a good stab at recognizing the oversexed buggers and neutralizing them. Esmenet, with much less resources, also seemed to do a good job in the lead up to Shimeh. Kellhus (and Moenghus) could not do everything, and part of their success was their delegation to others tasks that ordinary human resources could accomplish. I don't doubt that the Consult will still have intelligence in the next 20 years. [quote:3fb07yag] A final two points pertaining to the march of the Great Ordeal, two speculations of my own which I assert as truths. The Great Ordeal called by Anasûrimbor Kellhus will ultimately meet defeat, another Ordeal broken and dashed against the twin horns of Min-Uroikas. Anasûrimbor Kellhus will die. For a moment, I'm going to pause here to iterate something that I feel many, if not all, posters need to realize about the Celmomian Prophecy. A harbinger is not a saviour, it is a signal or a sign. The Anasûrimbor Kellhus is the harbinger of the Second Apocalypse. [/quote:3fb07yag] Just on this subject, it is not too unreasonable to suppose that Kellhus will make a swift exit (probably by misadventure) very early on in the next series of novels. This is perhaps good for the storyline, on the basis that no adversary could realistically present Kellhus a worthy challenge. It’s all very well being a Dark Lord or arch villain or malefic demon, but let’s face it should any one of Lord Voldemort, the No God, Mrs Coulter, or Morgoth, take on Kellhus not only would Kellhus be four steps ahead of their every evil machination, but Kellhus could offer to sort out their personality problems and even toss in a very credible chance of eternal salvation. Kellhus is simply omnicompetent, too capable, and in the next 20 years he is likely to become the paramount sorceror, as well as the paramount thinker, and soldier. On the other hand, maybe the plans of the Consult have been too well-laid, over too long a period, for even Kellhus' stupendous abilities to overcome. Simply for the sake of the story, it must be hard to have a character such as Kellhus; he is so good at everything he does. I look forward to see how Scott will resolve this problem. view post


posted 15 May 2007, 07:05 by Jamara, Auditor

the whole thing thtat really got to me as to whether or not Kellhus was a prophet was that I think he is a believer. When he tells his father why he must kill him (and the rest of the Dunyain) it is because that onve they become believers they will fear the outside. To me this insinuates that Kellhus himself is a believer. He truly believes. And I must state that I am no theologian and really can't define what are the criteria for a prophet. However, if the populace believes him to be and he believes himself to be, then I'm not sure if it matters whether he is or isn't and actual prophet. view post


posted 15 May 2007, 13:05 by coobek, Candidate

[quote="anor277":205ashms] Just on this subject, it is not too unreasonable to suppose that Kellhus will make a swift exit (probably by misadventure) very early on in the next series of novels. This is perhaps good for the storyline, on the basis that no adversary could realistically present Kellhus a worthy challenge. It’s all very well being a Dark Lord or arch villain or malefic demon, but let’s face it should any one of Lord Voldemort, the No God, Mrs Coulter, or Morgoth, take on Kellhus not only would Kellhus be four steps ahead of their every evil machination, but Kellhus could offer to sort out their personality problems and even toss in a very credible chance of eternal salvation. Kellhus is simply omnicompetent, too capable, and in the next 20 years he is likely to become the paramount sorceror, as well as the paramount thinker, and soldier. On the other hand, maybe the plans of the Consult have been too well-laid, over too long a period, for even Kellhus' stupendous abilities to overcome. Simply for the sake of the story, it must be hard to have a character such as Kellhus; he is so good at everything he does. I look forward to see how Scott will resolve this problem.[/quote:205ashms] Same thoughts here. (Thats why I made a thread about Satan vs Kelhus) What Kelhus can become in 20 years from now is simply immeasurable. Unless he meets his limits. view post


posted 15 May 2007, 14:05 by Madness, Peralogue

I feel compelled, as usual, to explain my side of our contrasting argument. anor, I understand completely that in the fantasy realm the Outside or the polytheistic Gods do hold sway. I would argue, however, that Cû'jara Cinmoi's novels just plainly do not follow any path laid by fantasy authors before him. I do not at all share your belief that the Eärwa's Outside is a given whatsoever. Contemplate the many fantasy novels you've ever read; I'll bet that within those worlds the Gods are present, have limits, and can be killed. Not the omnipotent beings represented in either the Prince of Nothing or our own world. As well, Cû'jara Cinmoi's novels are metaphysically layered thousandfold more so than any other fantasy novel I've ever read. As I've written before, his story is of humans in another time and place. Why else have the warring faiths, the uncertain piety, the philosophical commentary? The Men of Eärwa are trying to contemplate their reality much as we do our own. Hense, one reason for my fanatacism. Mr. Bakker has inspired me. You must realize he is attempting to speak through his novels, trying less to simply tell a story. He wants to challenge your thoughts, force you to recognize the frailties of some of our own worldly acceptences. I do not believe that Kellhus need be killed off simply due to lack of villains. Sorceries cannot affect Mog-Pharau, and while Cû'jara Cinmoi is trying to show Kellhus's eventual power through his Cant of Transposing, I'm sure many of the Nonmen, Mekeritrig, or Shauriatas will regardless prove problems, if not unsolvable ones, for the Anasûrimbor. Kellhus is not all powerful. Nor will he be in twenty years. He is either delusional or slowly becoming encumbered by his suppressed humanity. Neither look good for a Dûnyain. As I asserted before I believe that Cû'jara Cinmoi will write of a man who was once Dûnyain. I can almost now imagine the scene between Achamian and Kellhus, the latter apologizing for the wrong he did as Dûnyain. Jamara, I am neither a theologian, however, in the novels - and elsewhere actually - I assert a prophet to be someone [b:20q9zfkn]actually[/b:20q9zfkn] divinely inspired. i.e. not the Anasûrimbor Kellhus. view post


posted 24 Jun 2007, 06:06 by non-Ajencis, Commoner

The thing that intrigued me about the synopsis of Aspect Emperor is Achamian's quest to find the origins of the Dunyain. I think that is going to be the main thrust of the next book. Well, maybe not the main thrust, but a seriously wicked leg sweep. I think we will pick up Achamian's travels in northern Galeoth. He has decided to head north into ancient Kuniuri after receiving some intriguing information from the Galeoth spice/fur traders that make the run to Atrithau. He joins a caravan, and has many fine adventures on the way, evading Sranc, and Scarlet Spire Schoolmen looking for his Wizard scalp. He also meets and befriends a wizened, joke-cracking, mischievous witch, who has some skills that will come in handy. Maybe even provide a love interest for the lovelorn old man. He believes the clues to the origins of the Dunyain are near or about the wasted, ancient city of Tryse. He convinces a young Galeoth trader to accompany him after learning that he is one of the Few. Achamian now has a guide, as well as a student. That's as far as I have gotten. Lol. What Achamian learns of the Dunyain there is anyone's guess and Mr. Bakker's prerogative. But that would be cool I think. Achamian MUST learn of the Dunyain if he is to have any chance against the Consult. Perhaps to teach Kellhus of his ancestry, and hopefully they become friends again. view post


posted 27 Jun 2007, 20:06 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

What more about the Dunyain does he need to know :?: view post


posted 29 Jun 2007, 06:06 by shiva, Commoner

[quote="Mahajanga Mordecai":sjhbld9y]What more about the Dunyain does he need to know :?:[/quote:sjhbld9y] Is Kellhus truely of the Anasurimbor line? Are there others of said line? WTF do they want? As well as a million other things Akka doesn't know the Dunyain don't know. Keep in mind all Akka knows of them is their skills he's seen Kellhus use and the few things Cnaiur had learned or surmised. view post


posted 29 Jun 2007, 14:06 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

He already knows that Kellhus is an Anasurimbor, he doesn't need the Dunyain to confirm it; his dreams and knowledge of the line have done that for him. Whether or not he's the last of the Anasurimbor is irrelevant. He's Kellhus; all else are moot. He already knows what they, the Dunyain, want. Cnaiur had sufficient knowledge of the Dunyain ethos, not just their preternatural capabilities. He needn't share any information with the Dunyain. In fact it would not avail him or the Three Seas anything... good. Intuition, I'd wager, more than knowledge will make this clear. And Kellhus can and will learn of his ancestry (extensively) from the Mandate. I think Kellhus and Achamian are without further use of one another and I suspect this will remain the case until the proverbial 11th hour; not unlike the situation between Seswatha and Celmomas. view post


posted 29 Jun 2007, 21:06 by Mithfânion, Didact

Just thought I'd let you guys know that the US publisher has scheduled The Great Ordeal for July/August 2008, so a good couple of months after the UK release. view post


posted 01 Jul 2007, 18:07 by Harrol, Moderator

Darn them. I may just have to order the book from England. view post


posted 22 Jul 2007, 11:07 by xatantius, Candidate

I have several predictions for The Aspect-Emperor series, mostly about Achamian coz he's my favourite lol. I think he'll go to Atrithau to find out more about the Dunyain, and warn people there to be wary aobut the new Aspect-Emperor. They don't believe Inrithism up there anyway and sorcery can't be performed there, so Achamian would be safer there than in the Three Seas. He'd jsut be stupid to try and go to Ishual-even if he got past all the Sranc the Dunyain would just kill him anyway. I also think he might get some of the witches and sorceorus outcasts of the Three Seas together for his own protection-all the Schools are gonna be after him now, after all (and all of them armed with the Gnosis, if the Mandate are ordered by Kellhus not to be stingy with it). That's another reason for him to go to Atrithau. I reckon Kellhus will have had the whole Three Seas on some sort of breeding program to make up for everyone dying in the Holy War, so he has lots of soldiers for his Great Ordeal. I also reckon Esmenet will be absolutely miserable by this stage. She'll have done a Cnaiur and figured out stuff about the Dunyain that she wasn't supposed to know, and she'll still be pining for Achamian. And at the end of it all they'll be reunited and die in each others arms :) view post


posted 23 Jul 2007, 10:07 by coldraven2, Commoner

Reunite, definately and I've got a feeling Esmi ain't gonna live long. But Akka's going to survive I believe, at least till the bitter end. view post


posted 06 Aug 2007, 00:08 by avatar_of_existence, Peralogue

I thought I read somewhere that the next book was going to be on Cu'jara Cinmoi and the nonmen struggle. I think it's gonna be one of those books where one chapter is present and the next is the past and on and on. view post


posted 06 Aug 2007, 03:08 by Curethan, Didact

I think that Scott said he would like to write about that in the future - post PoN series rather than as a part of the current arc. view post


posted 17 Aug 2007, 22:08 by Mithfânion, Didact

Bad news guys, publisher has put the release for The Great Ordeal back even further to August 7, 2008. Major bummer. It would be nice if Scott would bother showing his face again and tell us what's up. view post


posted 18 Aug 2007, 03:08 by professor plum, Peralogue

Gnnnggghhhhhhhrrrrrrrrrrnnnnnnnnnnnnghhhhchhhhhcchjhchhhh!!!!!!! view post


posted 18 Aug 2007, 15:08 by Harrol, Moderator

I second that! view post


posted 21 Sep 2007, 23:09 by jhunter626, Commoner

i agree with xatantius about that breeding program thing and there is going to be a massive army. also on a related subject there will hardly be any scylvendi because of kiyuth, so they can't repopulate also i think that it's possible that everything may just be orchestrated by the dunyain and they have put other dunyain, although less advanced dunyain, into the three seas, such as ajencis and sejenus this is probably all wrong though view post


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