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Kellhus's State of Mind posted 29 Mar 2007, 06:03 by Jamara, Auditor

I am wondering what will be Kellhus's state of mind during the Aspect Emperor. By the end of the Prince of Nothing he has eliminated all of his opposing factors, including his own father and he whom taught him war. The only exception is Achamian whom he has said will kneel before him when next they meet. Many may read this as Kellhus saying what was expected of him to say in front of his court, but we know that Achamian has survived the next twenty years (since he's in the next series). At the opening of Aspect Emperor we will see Kellhus in control of the entire Three Seas, and leading a campaign north against Golgoterrath. He leads all. He has mastered a level of Gnosis beyond the Mandate School. He is a prophet in the eyes of the land. And his sons are "murderous". Possibly a reflection of the father. Is Kellhus a meglomaniac? He believes that he is more than Dunyain. He is Dunyain, master of the Gnosis, a Holy Prophet, and the Harbinger of the Second Apocalypse. Has his power consumed him? view post


posted 29 Mar 2007, 20:03 by TheDarkness, Peralogue

Kellhus has gone through many transformations thourght the PON series. Where in the first two books you see his struggles and glimpse his indecision, his POV is offered much less in TTT. He has come to think of himself as a god and i believe that he is mistaken. I believe it is possible that the ruling Dunyain who sent him saw this all before they sent him. It is possible that they are the real enemies of the Consult and the ultimate protectors of man. They forsaw that Kellhus would attempt to avenge his Bloodline and attempt a seige of Golgotterah. By knowing what has come before they control what comes after. Surely the council of Dunyain knew how Kellhus would come to rule and attempt to learn sorcery to combat his father. Kellhus will find a fight against the Non men and the No God quite un winnable without the guidance of his teachers. but inturn they will denounce him for his mark. they must have some power beyond the logos or the logos itself will prove most powerful of all. as for his Sons and, I think that Akka must become a tutor to one of them who will ultimately bring the real war against the No God view post


posted 29 Mar 2007, 20:03 by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

i was under the impression the dunyain had denouced allthings sorcerous, including the no-god and the consult view post


posted 29 Mar 2007, 21:03 by Jamara, Auditor

I do not think it too plausible that prior to Moenghus's dream contact with the Dunyain, that they would be conditioning a prodigy child like Kellhus, i.e. conditioning him against the knowledge of sorcery actually existing. Sorcery seems very logical to me, and the better the Dunyain understood it the better for them and their Logos. I really don't think that the Dunyain know about sorcery, or at least have been conditioned over the centuries to not believe in it. Although, at the same time I find it very hard to believe that they don't know about it. How could they forget something like sorcery, or even the Consult, when the North lay in such a waste and they live in a fortress which they acquired at the end of the First Apocalypse. Perhaps you are right Darkness. Perhaps the Dunyain do possess some greater power of insight, or whatever it is, that led them to condition Kellhus in certain matters. We do know that Moenghus was sent out into the world to "scout" just prior to Kellhus's adolescence and his higher degrees of training. Why would the Dunyain want to scout the outside world? If this were a common practice, then sorcery would not have been hidden from them. If this is not a common practice, then why did they send Moenghus out, unless they saw something in his and Kellhus's future? Did the Dunyain condition the ground for Moenghus just as he in turn conditioned it for Kellhus? view post


posted 29 Mar 2007, 22:03 by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

the dunyain sent moengus out to scout after being attacked by sranc. they sent him out to see if teir isolation was intact, and after his return, deemed him tainted and outcast him and it would be very easy to ferget something like sorcery or even the state of the world when none have left or entered the fortress for 2000 years and ones people do not beleive in history or the past. as stated several times in the book, sorcery goes against all things dunyain, compleatly reversing the cause and effect of the logos view post


posted 29 Mar 2007, 22:03 by Jamara, Auditor

Wow, thanks for the clarification. But I do not think sorcery goes against the Logos. I think the source of sorcery does however. That fact that a man can hurl a spear or hurl a firebolt has the same cause and effect scenarios. But from where do they draw this power? That would be the troubling question for the Dunyain. It has been stated that they do not believe in the Outside. Sorcery tells them that it is real, and probably can't be comprehended. Though the TFT may be just that, the comprehension of the Outside. Which brings us back to Kellhus. Moenghus might have comprehended the Outside, but could not manipulate it due to becoming Cishaurim. He was left impotent with his knowledge. But Kellhus has mastered the Gnosis, the Abstract, as well as begun comprehending the nature of the Outside. Could he be mad with power by the start of the Aspect Emperor? view post


posted 30 Mar 2007, 02:03 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Jamara":288bg8f3]...................................... Which brings us back to Kellhus. Moenghus might have comprehended the Outside, but could not manipulate it due to becoming Cishaurim. He was left impotent with his knowledge. But Kellhus has mastered the Gnosis, the Abstract, as well as begun comprehending the nature of the Outside. Could he be mad with power by the start of the Aspect Emperor?[/quote:288bg8f3] He could be, but I tend to doubt it. Thoughout the first three novels Kellhus was just too penetrating, too astute to fail in his own self-evaluation. At the start of [i:288bg8f3]The Great Ordeal[/i:288bg8f3] he will be a towering figure, the heir of both Seswatha and Inrithi Sejenus and of course of Celmomas as neither S. nor I. S. held temporal power - and Kellhus would easily be greater than any of those predecessors. This is one of the reasons why I'm forced to like Madness(?) suggestion that early on the new series, Kellhus will fall victim to some little mischance or unforeseen circumstance and that the struggle against the Consult will be continued by lesser mortals. view post


posted 30 Mar 2007, 05:03 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Good question. Kellus will be focused on one thing - stopping the Second Apocolypse. It's interesting that he's still working on this 20 years following book 3.... As for the "muderous" reference...there is a VERY interesting potential dynamic here. Serwe's child with Kellus (actually, Cnaiur) will probably see himself as Kellus's rightful heir over Kellus's true child. Interesting court dynnamics there. And the thought of a half Dunyain child running around without daddy's influence is kind of scary. :) (I might be jumping the gun in thinking Kellus won't be around to raise the little brat though :) ) view post


posted 30 Mar 2007, 16:03 by TheDarkness, Peralogue

[quote="Trutu Angotma":2m19x0q8]i was under the impression the dunyain had denouced allthings sorcerous, including the no-god and the consult[/quote:2m19x0q8] Exactly...that, and the fact that the Dunyain were obviously sent into exile by the The Consult (evident by their desperate approach to the towers of Ishual finding the only survivor of the Apocalypse in the North the last Anasurimbor!) leads me to believe that they have set up the Benjuka table to bring ultimate desctruction upon The Consult, so that they will never have to face near extinction again. I think Kellhus will ultimately fall, though that is hard to believe since i jsut finished rereading the fight between him and the non-man in the prologue to TDTCB and now that he has the Gnosis, he will easily be able to do away with several at a time. But somehow he will fall and Akka as Sesthatha and his Anisurimbor student will bring the Spear of Heron (the significance of which i am still a little cloudy on) and destroy the No God once and for all! Of course this is much too simple, I am sure that the role Esmi will play in the raising of Her sons will loom large in the fate of the world. but i think what role she will play is much to hard to predict. but i think that she will be jaded by her responsibilities and be unable to love ever again! view post


posted 30 Mar 2007, 19:03 by jude, Commoner

[quote="TheDarkness":1nq0mtkl]Exactly...that, and the fact that the Dunyain were obviously sent into exile by the The Consult (evident by their desperate approach to the towers of Ishual finding the only survivor of the Apocalypse in the North the last Anasurimbor!) [/quote:1nq0mtkl] really? i didn't see that at all to be the case. is there more evidence for this, or just that one scene at the beginning? view post


posted 30 Mar 2007, 20:03 by TheDarkness, Peralogue

No, merely circumstantial eveidence. It seemed to me that the Dunyain were in a desperate situation, since they were displaced and starving at the end of the first Apocalypse. Which would suggest that they were displaced as a result of the first great ordeal, and might seek ultimate revenge upon The Consult with whom they seem to be at odds because of their inherent conflicting beliefs...that The Consult using sorcery and force, The Dunyain using intellect and the shortest path. The next inference comes from the fact that the Dunyain must have known what would happen by sening Kellhus to Shimeh. What better way to weaken the no god and the Consult then by sending one of their own who would become ultra powerful and be able to lead men not only by the use of the Logos, but by his legendary name as well!!!! view post


posted 30 Mar 2007, 20:03 by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

[quote="TheDarkness":n0i9yqnd] .......s student will bring the Spear of Heron (the significance of which i am still a little cloudy on) and destroy the No God once and for all!...[/quote:n0i9yqnd] the heron spear is a spear constructed of pure light and was the weapon of the inchori leader sil, called suorgil, and was the only wepon that could injure the no god because of the chorae imbedded in his armour view post


posted 30 Mar 2007, 20:03 by TheDarkness, Peralogue

ahh I see!! thats awesome, very informative thanks! Its to bad they dont have a Wal-Mart in Earwa. I'd bet they would have it in stock. view post


posted 30 Mar 2007, 21:03 by Jamara, Auditor

I've pondered whether the Dunyain were created/established by the Consult. I often thought that they might have been a venture to find a way of maintaining power should the Apocalypse succeed and the Outside become closed from the Mundane world. The quest for a self-moving soul. But then if the Consult were the originators of the Dunyain, why do they not know of their existence. Especially since Mekeritig did not know what Kellhus was when they fought in the TDTCB prologue. I think the Dunyain were just a group of refugee monks of some minor order. And rereading the prologue it is evident that their loss of memory of sorcery was intentional. They burned the Vizier's books and removed all sorceric runes from Ishual. And I definitely think that the Heron Spear will be recovered, most likely by Achamian. I just think that so much emphasis was placed upon it by Seswatha that Achamian will be forced to find it. view post


posted 30 Mar 2007, 21:03 by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

but i was under the impression the heron spear was destroyed by the scylvendi, at least in akkas oppinion view post


posted 30 Mar 2007, 21:03 by Jamara, Auditor

I'm not sure if Akka thinks its destroyed, but it would not be the first time that it was thought destroyed later to resurface. After Eleneot Fields it was thought destroyed only to resurface fourteen years later. The glossary says that it was lost when the Scylvendi sacked Cenei (though it does not say that it was taken by the Scylvendi . . . perhaps ushered away in secrecy) and "that its whereabouts are presently unknown". view post


posted 30 Mar 2007, 23:03 by Madness, Peralogue

Though I've read this thread a few times since it's creation, arguments and speculation have certainly changed the topic. The initial debate, embodied by the thread's title, is certainly one of import to The Great Odreal. However, I guess I post now, not to reiterate what I believe may be Kellhus's mindset - though I may -, but to quash some inexcusable misconceptions which have surfaced throughout the entirety of this thread. Since the majority of this thread consists of posts by posters newer to the three-seas, a quick tip: Beware of writing in absolutes. Not to imply that I've not done it but I cannot believe some of the speculative misconceptions you've posted. The motives of the Dûnyain as a whole are impossibly elusive to say the least. I'm inclined to agree with Curethan, that the Dûnyain's role in events will be one of true surprise to us readers. - The Dûnyain went to great lengths in order to eliminate prospects of sorcery from their halls. I cannot even imagine the patience one must have to scrape sorcerous inscriptions from what could well have been a Nonmen dwelling, however, I am not Dûnyain. It's possible that within the Pragma there are countless conspiricies and truths they keep from their brethren. I, however, believe it unlikely there are any. - The Dûnyain know of the "ancient wars", as made evident by Kellhus's nostalgia in The Darkness That Comes Before. - The Dûnyain were not sent into exile by the Consult. They were refugees of an apocalypse. They happened upon Ishuäl and in seclusion expanded beyond their initial principle. - The Dûnyain did [b:55ginoab]not[/b:55ginoab] send Anasûrimbor Kellhus from Ishuäl in order to prevent the Second Apocalypse. I believe in the Dûnyain's goal towards a self-moving soul. However, I believe that in seclusion the Dûnyain lack the entirety of variables to achieve the unconditioned soul. Honestly, I've written this exact argument before so I will just copy and paste it. [quote="Madness":55ginoab]I've always maitained that the Thousandfold Thought was in essence a deeper layer to the probability trance. Firstly, the excerpt from The Thousandfold Thought that coincides with my own belief concerning it's nature: Quote: Kellhus had seen it many times, wandering the labyrinth of possibilities that was the Thousandfold Thought. My assertions of the Thousandfold Thought follow much the same process. I believe that the Dûnyain lack the proper variables in isolation to achieve their goal of an Unconditioned soul. The sole two of their number to have left Ishüal apprehend so much more reality than the worldborn no matter what circumstance they encounter. Likewise, the sole two Dûnyain to have left Ishüal apprehend the Thousandfold Thought; Moënghus through years and years of Dûnyain meditation, the probability trance, and Kellhus through the conditioned events his father Moënghus sets before him. To me the Thousandfold Thought is like fate mapped though through logic and reasoning of circumstances; hense Kellhus knows what Moënghus will do before Moënghus himself infers it.[/quote:55ginoab] Therefore, I don't believe the Dûnyain sent Kellhus from Ishuäl knowing what would happen. I believe that they sent him to assassinate his father, one who had intruded on and, in their eyes, polluted their monastic fastness. I guess I've not much more to write for the moment. Friday afternoon is slipping into evenin' on me and the party, I've been informed, is elsewhere. Just a couple things to take into account of The Aspect-Emperor speculations. It states nowhere nor is it implied that Kellhus has mastered the Gnosis. If you would like to assume so provide evidence. As well, despite my opinions of him concerning his reasons, Drusas Achamian is searching for the Dûnyain. This is implies to me they have no small part to play in the future. I've, elsewhere, already speculated that Achamian may entreat another Dûnyain to enter the fray. view post


posted 31 Mar 2007, 01:03 by DietCoke23, Commoner

"Kellhus will find a fight against the Non men and the No God quite un winnable without the guidance of his teachers. but inturn they will denounce him for his mark. they must have some power beyond the logos or the logos itself will prove most powerful of all. as for his Sons and, I think that Akka must become a tutor to one of them who will ultimately bring the real war against the No God" i was under the impression that all of the other dunyain, other than kellhus, had killed themselves after recieving the dreams sent by Moenghus. Am i seriously mistaken here? view post


posted 31 Mar 2007, 02:03 by Jamara, Auditor

Not all the Dunyain, only those who recieved the dreams. Remember, in order to send those messages, Moenghus had to know exactly where those Dunyain slept. So this limits it to only the Dunyain who were full fledged Dunyain thirty years ago while Moenghus was still at Ishual. How many more have been raised to be a full Dunyain in those thirty years? And it was not made clear whether he contacted all the Dunyain from his years there, or just a select few. Probably just the Pragma, or a select few of the Pragma. view post


posted 31 Mar 2007, 04:03 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

As far as I can tell, the origins of the Dunyain are still a complete mystery. All we know is a little of their beliefs and through Kellus's memories, we know a bit about how they train their young (the part about the "defectives" was chilling). Anyway, it doesn't seem we have definitive proof that the Dunyain were desperate stragglers of the Apocolypse or proof that they were displaced etc. Hopefully Akka's wonderings will clear some of that up. I'm certainly *very* interested in knowing their origins. view post


posted 31 Mar 2007, 04:03 by Jamara, Auditor

Actually, in the first couple pages of the DTCB prologue, when the Dunyain first arrive at Ishual, "Peering through dark embrasures, he saw a group of cadaverous men and women - refugees of the Apocalypse. Glimpsing his shadow, they cried out for food, shelter, anything, but the boy was too terrified to reply. Hardship had made them look fearsome - feral, like a wold people." view post


posted 31 Mar 2007, 10:03 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Good point, Jamara. I'd completely forgotten about that passage. But still, given what we know about the Dunyain and their deceptiveness, it does call to question what their true state was at that time. It's hard for me to imagine them being truely desperate, though I guess it's possible that their philosopy wasn't as refined at that time. view post


posted 31 Mar 2007, 21:03 by Jamara, Auditor

I agree. As I was typing up the qoute, it came to me that what is described of the Dunyain is from the young boy's perspective. This is how he sees them. Which is how the Dunyain work. They could have cried out if it were the shortest path, a lie. Because the next sentence after what I quoted speaks of them scaling the walls. So they weren't haggard enough to prevent them from scaling the walls of a fortress. view post


posted 01 Apr 2007, 04:04 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Jamara":yuw3xl2u]I agree. As I was typing up the qoute, it came to me that what is described of the Dunyain is from the young boy's perspective. This is how he sees them. Which is how the Dunyain work. They could have cried out if it were the shortest path, a lie. Because the next sentence after what I quoted speaks of them scaling the walls. So they weren't haggard enough to prevent them from scaling the walls of a fortress.[/quote:yuw3xl2u] Another interesting question is why was Kellus's line chosen as the "special line" for the Dunyain's selective breeding? Presumably they'd been around years before finding Ishual and had already started their selective breeding program. Or maybe it was the case that Kellus's line of selective breeding was just one of many. Kellus's memory after all made reference to several other children. Did all these kids survive into adulthood? We know a lot about the Dunyain, but there's still so much we don't know... view post


posted 01 Apr 2007, 14:04 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":1xj76rt1][quote="Jamara":1xj76rt1]I agree. As I was typing up the qoute, it came to me that what is described of the Dunyain is from the young boy's perspective. This is how he sees them. Which is how the Dunyain work. They could have cried out if it were the shortest path, a lie. Because the next sentence after what I quoted speaks of them scaling the walls. So they weren't haggard enough to prevent them from scaling the walls of a fortress.[/quote:1xj76rt1] Another interesting question is why was Kellus's line chosen as the "special line" for the Dunyain's selective breeding? Presumably they'd been around years before finding Ishual and had already started their selective breeding program. Or maybe it was the case that Kellus's line of selective breeding was just one of many. Kellus's memory after all made reference to several other children. Did all these kids survive into adulthood? We know a lot about the Dunyain, but there's still so much we don't know...[/quote:1xj76rt1] From my interpretation of the Dunyain I wouldn't say that Kellhus' line was chosen as the "special line" however his line likely had more genetic benefits than others because of the Nonman ancestry and such. Also, I do not believe they had a selective breeding program from the start, I think in the beginning they were just a random non radical group of people who after experiencing the hardships and catastrophes of the Apocalypse decided to seal themselves off from the world and seek to accomplish their current goals. view post


posted 02 Apr 2007, 00:04 by Buckethead, Peralogue

[quote:2e9uxo8x]Another interesting question is why was Kellus's line chosen as the "special line" for the Dunyain's selective breeding? Presumably they'd been around years before finding Ishual and had already started their selective breeding program. Or maybe it was the case that Kellus's line of selective breeding was just one of many. Kellus's memory after all made reference to several other children. Did all these kids survive into adulthood?[/quote:2e9uxo8x] I truly don't believe that the dunyain would risk sending moenghus out to investigate sranc tribes and becoming infected with the outside if he was of this "special line". I t wouldn't make much sense if he was so valuable for breeding. view post


posted 02 Apr 2007, 03:04 by Jamara, Auditor

Perhaps they saw his special-line as a protection against the outside world. Why not put your best out there rather than your least. If anyone can resist the world, it would be your best. view post


posted 02 Apr 2007, 05:04 by Buckethead, Peralogue

if your main purpose is to find enlightenment in solitary through breeding your best, i fail to see the logic in that. especially using your best as a scout, it's not like they sent him to destroy or conquer. any risk to your finest "stud" seems ludicrous if he is the best chance for enlightenment. view post


posted 02 Apr 2007, 05:04 by Curethan, Didact

Why send anyone out 'scouting'? Escpecially if they would then very likely be considered 'contaminated' and defective... Hmm, mebe Mo was considered - expendable ;) view post


posted 02 Apr 2007, 16:04 by Jamara, Auditor

They still had the baby Kellhus. view post


posted 02 Apr 2007, 16:04 by Buckethead, Peralogue

exactly. baby. view post


posted 03 Apr 2007, 05:04 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Curethan":hddc8vyi]Why send anyone out 'scouting'? [/quote:hddc8vyi] Apparently those pesky Sranc threatened the Dunyain's isolation. [quote:hddc8vyi]Escpecially if they would then very likely be considered 'contaminated' and defective... Hmm, mebe Mo was considered - expendable ;)[/quote:hddc8vyi] I thinkthe Dunyain consider anyone expendable. After all, everyone who was touched by Moe's magic telephone call willingly killed themselves. view post


posted 03 Apr 2007, 05:04 by anor277, Didact

Just on the topic of Moenghus' expulsion, his position within the Dunyain, and likewise Kellhus', I think it is mentioned in the novels somewhere that the Dunyain had no choice but to expel (or send) Kellhus. That is Moenghus was beyond their control, his sorcerous sendings threatened the splendid isolation of Ishual, he asked specifically for his son. The Dunyain had no choice but to send Kellhus ostensibly as an assassin. Those pragmatic enough within the Dunyain to realize that Kellhus might not actually turn off his father might have reasoned that even if this did not occur, Moenghus and Kellhus (or whoever won) would presumably have no interest in returning to Ishual. In the next series, if the "whole world comes into play", the position of Ishual is obviously important. The Dunyain might receive overtures from both Kellhus and the Consult. Alternatively, Achamian, in his search for the Dunyain, might come upon the (sorcerously!) blasted ruins of Ishual and reconstruct Kellhus' history from there. I realize that this is a lot of speculation from so little real information. However, I completely agree with those who hold that the Dunyain are completely innocent of the knowledge of sorcery and that Moenghus' sendings came as an awful shock. view post


posted 04 Apr 2007, 16:04 by TheDarkness, Peralogue

just to clarify one of my earlier statements, when i said that the dunyain were sent into exile by the Consult, I did not mean that the consult did it on purpose, i meant that as a result of the devastation wrought by the destructive nature of the Consult, they lost their original home and were forced to search for a new safe place. the fact that they could scale the walls does not really prove that they were in a good condition. the kid saw them scale the walls, all that really necessitates is that some scaled the walls then they could have opened the gates for the rest of them. In any event the Dunyain trained both mentally and physically, so scaling walls would not prove too difficult. I am currently rereading TDTCB and am about to come to the part where Cnauir encounters Kellhus. I am looking forward to any clues that it might give about the reason the Dunyain sent Moenghus out. Does anyone have any opinions about why they did this. The whole scout thing doesnt really seem right to me. They must know what comes before to know what comes after. They know that an Anisurimbor once ruled men and led them in a fight against the no god. With the combined logos of all the Dunyain they must be planning something on a larger scale than a simple scout mission. Sure they live in isolation, but i do not believe they are blind to the activites of men and nonmen alike. they must keep a close eye on the world so as to be in a position of power when the next apocalypse occurs. remember it is the world who has forgotten them, not them who have forgotten the world. Even the Consult is desperate to find out about these Dunyain. the most impoartant element of attack is the element of suprise!! view post


posted 04 Apr 2007, 18:04 by Buckethead, Peralogue

i'm sorry the darkness, but i have to disagree. we are at least meant to think that they are doing everything possible to forget the world and have the world forget about them. personally, i highly doubt this is a conspiracy so that they can get a "surprise attack" on the consult, i really do believe that they seek enlightenment through seclusion. as for sending moenghus out? maybe he was becoming a problem otherwise? who knows but i don't think you'll find any answers in tdtcb (i hope you will, i just doubt it). view post


posted 05 Apr 2007, 02:04 by Moigle90, Commoner

I agree with buckethead. The Dunyain don't even believe in the consult or anything supernatural at all (i think). In the prologue of Darkness when Kellhus is with Leweth, it says that Kellhus thinks of the apocalypse as a legend or a myth just like the rest of Leweth's beliefs in demons and spirits view post


posted 05 Apr 2007, 03:04 by Jamara, Auditor

It's true that the Dunyain seek enlightenment through seclussion, but enlightenment of what? Well, that's an easy answer, a self-moving soul. But to what end? Why do they want to create a self-moving soul? Do they see an ultimate purpose for creating a self-moving soul? view post


posted 05 Apr 2007, 04:04 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Moigle90":3scdg00x]I agree with buckethead. The Dunyain don't even believe in the consult or anything supernatural at all (i think). In the prologue of Darkness when Kellhus is with Leweth, it says that Kellhus thinks of the apocalypse as a legend or a myth just like the rest of Leweth's beliefs in demons and spirits[/quote:3scdg00x] This is kind of a tough point - what we know is that the [i:3scdg00x]Conditioned [/i:3scdg00x]aren't [i:3scdg00x]taught [/i:3scdg00x]about Sorcery or the Apocolypse. Or at least they are taught that these things are fables. But we know from Kellus's flashbacks that there are other members of the Dunyain...notably the Pragma. What does he know? And it would seem at some point [i:3scdg00x]someone [/i:3scdg00x]in the Dunyain had to believe in Sorcery, especially after the Apocolypse. They intentionally scrubbed sorceruous marks from Ishual after all. Perhaps the Pragma has knowledge of the true nature of Sorcery...it's an interesting point to ponder. [quote="Jamara":3scdg00x]It's true that the Dunyain seek enlightenment through seclussion, but enlightenment of what? Well, that's an easy answer, a self-moving soul. But to what end? Why do they want to create a self-moving soul? Do they see an ultimate purpose for creating a self-moving soul?[/quote:3scdg00x] Yes, The Absolute, the self-moving soul is their ultimate goal. These followup questions are very good ones. Were the Dunyain forged by the Apocolypse? Or did they exist before? Or did they exist before the Apocolypse and were changed by it? All great questions that I'm sure Bakker will be very slow in answering. :) view post


posted 05 Apr 2007, 16:04 by Twayleph, Auditor

The author did answer that question. Once again, the Search function comes to the rescue ;) [quote:39hbvia7]Before the First Apocalypse the Dunyain were a heretical community of Kuniuric ascetics (originally based in Sauglish) who sought enlightenment (the Absolute) through the study and practice of reason (the Logos). They were a young movement, but they had already suffered sporadic persecution for some time. But since the Kunniat faith practiced by the High Norsirai was not hierarchical, no concerted effort was made to punish their atheism. [/quote:39hbvia7] view post


posted 06 Apr 2007, 03:04 by Curethan, Didact

Back to the original thread topic. I was re-readin the Kellhus sections of TTT the other day, curious about some things like his confrontations with Aurang and Mo, and his belief that he is 'chosen'. He definately believes he is the harbinger, but he also believes that Mo would be damned for his sins, while he apparently would not. He seems to try to offer Aurang absolution at one point, and demonstrates examples of protecting those close to him when it is not the shortest path - example Esme. He seems sad when he notes that Esme does not yet love him - only worships him. My point is that reading thru only the Kellhus bits it seems that the theme is love. This wasn't really what I expected or felt from my first time thru the book. I was kinda thinking he probly was mad, what with hearing voices, talking to 'the world' and the no-god, seeing haloes etc I mean, why is Mo damned, but Kellhus isn't? I think I know now. I think Kellhus has embraced his humanity - abandonded the path of the dunyain, and has become much more fallilable as the cost. view post


posted 06 Apr 2007, 20:04 by Buckethead, Peralogue

i keep reading posts stating that kellhus truly thinks he is the harbinger and that moenghus is damned but i in no way consider this to be fact for one reason. in my mind there is one very important quote while this is being discussed, [quote:vxky8v5h]"The mad say much the same," Moenghus said. "Perhaps your trials have deranged you." "Perhaps..." Scrutiny. Calculation. "It's not in your interest to decieve me." A stone-faced pause. "Unless..." "Unless," Kellhus said, "I've come to assasinate you, as our Dunyain brothers have decreed... Is this your apprehension?" Scrutiny. Calculation. "You have not the power to overcome me." "But I do, Father."[/quote:vxky8v5h] i'm not saying by any means it is not possible that he believes he is the harbinger, just that i am still very speculative one way or another. by asking these questions kellhus confuses monghus and disarms him by forcing him to continually enter the probability trance during their encounter, leaving him much less aware of their physical surroundings. it seems to me that everyone simply concedes that kellhus' side of this final meeting is always correct simply because moenghus removed his eyes or can't use sorcery as well. I also believe his meeting with aurang was much the same. he was not by any means speaking truth or giving the reader a solid conclusion, rather as usual he is jockying for position telling both truth and lies. i personally don't pretend to know which are which. that's why the lack of kellhus' point of view is so darn frustrating... hopefully bakker will get back to it in the great ordeal. view post


posted 10 Apr 2007, 11:04 by Curethan, Didact

Yeh, I agree that Kelhus' veracity may in general be doubted as Scott is definately trying to keep thins opaque - but, Kelhus usually speaks truth, as it is far more useful for manipulation. Specifically in the encounter with Aurang, he later internally aknowledges lying to Esme afterwards to lessen the impact of what he told Aurang, as Esme was concious of the encounter. I think its pretty much assured that he believes that he is the harbinger, and several times he comments internally about the haloes. He also reflects about wandering the permutations of the TT where Mo betrays him, and why else would he kill him? view post


posted 11 Apr 2007, 00:04 by Buckethead, Peralogue

i just finished reading TTT and i honestly only remember kellhus aknowledging the halos once... i was looking for it. if i'm wrong someone let me know, maybe i missed it. as for kellhus speaking the truth because it is more useful to manipulate people... he almost always speaks the truth about another persons true feelings or behaviour to accomplish this, not worldly truths. all of the worldly ideas of god and his message are conceded as complete lies by kellhus' point of view up until the end of TWP. view post


posted 11 Apr 2007, 06:04 by Jamara, Auditor

I really think that Kellhus's perspective/POV/motivations are altered by the Circumfixion. I'm just wondering to what end. view post


posted 11 Apr 2007, 06:04 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Kellus generally speaks the truth (he mostly just tell people who drives them since they themselves have no idea), he will toss in the occasional fib to get his way. When he shows emotion for example, it's almost always manipulative. [quote="Jamara":1bxaix2i]I really think that Kellhus's perspective/POV/motivations are altered by the Circumfixion. I'm just wondering to what end.[/quote:1bxaix2i] Good question. He has definitely been changed...and there were hints of *real* emotion towards Serwe during the process (via his thinking). I believe Kellus thinks he's the Harbringer and he ain't faking it. :) view post


posted 11 Apr 2007, 15:04 by Buckethead, Peralogue

of course his motivations were changed after the crucifiction. my point is that from this point on the reader is almost completely reliant on behavioural narration of kellhus and in my mind his behaviour is rarely a good judge of his true thoughts or intent. [quote:3nl0jsgq]Kellus generally speaks the truth (he mostly just tell people who drives them since they themselves have no idea), he will toss in the occasional fib to get his way. When he shows emotion for example, it's almost always manipulative. [/quote:3nl0jsgq] kellhus never betrays his true feelings. bacause of the conditioning his face can remain as still as he needs it to. when he shows emotion (up until TTT) it is ALWAYS false = lying. and he uses this to manipulate people over and over again. view post


posted 13 Apr 2007, 21:04 by emmills, Commoner

Do not forget that the Dunyain of the first apocalypse is not the Dunyain of second apocalypse. 2000 years is a very long time, and any attempt to give the original Dunyain powers (of perception, logic or the inability to err) equal to that of the latter Dunyain is not allowing for breeding and educational growth. Any notion of the Dunyain sending Kellhus out with motives that are not known or equally his, IMO, is not possible. Somewhere in the books Kellhus states something along the lines that the Dunyain did not talk much since everyone could read each others face in addition to knowing what the others response would be (conditioned ground, etc). As for Kellhus state of mind, we should examine an account of his affairs: Job: Aspect Empereror, blessed prophet and divinely chosen leader of all men, defacto leader of all sorcery schools due to skill level, Dunyain girlfriend: Smart, ruthless when needed, above average leader Half Brother: second in command (politically), half-dunyain Step son: 20 year old ADULT, half skivlendi first child: 19 year old adult, half dunyain other children: unknown If Kellhus is leading a march against Golgoterrath, he is not being a good Dunyain (i.e. he is walking conditioned ground), unless it is the shortest path to a self-moving soul and the ultimate inderstanding of the logos. I would assume that meglomania is not a concern since pleasure in and of itself is not a motivation for kelhus. The biggest challenge to kellhus will be an error (outright or through lack of knowledge) in his logic. Now if Kellhus was not a Dunyain, then a twenty year old kid or two should be cause for concern in the whole "heir to the throne" bit. A smokin hot girlfriend on a power trip would be fun. The leader of all men thing could drive someone to overconfidence or paranoia. Lastly, the whole demon underworld trying to kill you would prbably lend itself into some therepy time with a shrink. Just my thoughts view post


posted 26 Apr 2007, 16:04 by brandon, Candidate

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":3ki6bi5c]Good point, Jamara. I'd completely forgotten about that passage. But still, given what we know about the Dunyain and their deceptiveness, it does call to question what their true state was at that time. It's hard for me to imagine them being truely desperate, though I guess it's possible that their philosopy wasn't as refined at that time.[/quote:3ki6bi5c] seriously. sometimes i think readers look far too much into things. at that time, the dunyain were predictably a minor order. what would be the purpose of bakker's initial descriptions at the start of the series of their destitude and self will. they eleiminated all evidence of sorcery conciously. they were destitute. they have have arrived at their present circumstance through 2000 years of selective breeding. somtime what is on the page is as given. view post


posted 01 May 2007, 06:05 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="brandon":3efaqgvs] seriously. sometimes i think readers look far too much into things. at that time, the dunyain were predictably a minor order. what would be the purpose of bakker's initial descriptions at the start of the series of their destitude and self will. they eleiminated all evidence of sorcery conciously. they were destitute. they have have arrived at their present circumstance through 2000 years of selective breeding. somtime what is on the page is as given.[/quote:3efaqgvs] The reason we "look far too much into things" is because one lesson we've been taught about the Dunyain is that what you see rarely lines up with reality when it comes to them. Now you might be right of course. Perhaps they were truly destitute. It's just that every single situation in which a Dunyain character has appeared to be destitute has been some sort of manipulation. It's only natural to question what you see with them. view post


posted 02 May 2007, 21:05 by emmills, Commoner

There is evidence that the old dunyain was truly desparate and nothing like the new dunyain. One of the most glaring differences is in there acceptence policies. The old dunyain accepted a child not from any of "breeding" stock. In TTT, Moengus describes Kelhus brother as not a dunyain even though he has half the blood and the training since birth. The original order was just an religious/philosophical sect that was trying to escape the horrors of the apocolypse. Clean body, clean mind, look for the truth etc. I would not think the group could manage a 2000 year plot of revenge, especially if they did not render a school of sorcery or sorceral defense. Kelhus is not a Kwisach Haderack (sp), that story has already been written. view post


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