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Like father like son? posted 11 Jul 2004, 11:07 by Joel, Commoner

In TWP we learned that Kellhus, and presumably, his father are members of the Few. Moenghus even appears to lead a faction within the Cishaurim. And so far, Kellhus has trodden many of the same roads as Moenghus; this evidenced by Cnaiur, the nonman mage, and more I'm sure, but these lept to mind quickly. Does this mean that Kellhus will continue that road, which the title of the 3rd book strongly suggests, and become a Cishaurim? Anyone else think this could happen? We do know that Akka never taught him anything really substantial of the Gnosis. And with his percieved betrayal regarding Esmenet it appears unlikely he would teach Kellhus that. Of course, that's the great thing about how Kellhus has been written, he could change Akka's mind in moments. (Afterall, what better weapon against the Consult than a Gnositic Warrior Prophet.) Would the secrets and power of a Cishaurim be enough for him to turn his back on the Holy War? Or would it make more sense to hop aboard the snake-seeing train when the Holy War finally peters out? And before I go, anyone got any thoughts on what Kellhus and Moenghus really want? Other than meeting each other. Will they strive to kill each other, or work together to rule the world? Or, joyously reunite and settle down peacefully? The two books have been plotting to that moment of meeting, but for what exact purpose/reason beyond that? Can it really be as easy as; so they can stop the Consult. The Consult's fear of the Cishaurim suggests that. Seems kinda small though. There must be something I'm missing. Sorry for the long sentences, general tone, and poor grammar. view post


posted 11 Jul 2004, 14:07 by Replay, Auditor

I think that Mohengus is at war with the consult and has been for some time. We know the Cishaurim assasinated the leader of that sorceror school (forgot their name) 10 years ago, and my guess is that it is because Mohengus knew him to be one of the consult. I also expect there has been a lot more assasinations by that small group within the Cishaurim that Mohengus seems to have set up. And as the consult cannot get their skin spies close enough to do anything about it (since the members of that group have been trained to see them), they finally resorted to other methods - the holy war. view post


posted 15 Jul 2004, 05:07 by saintjon, Auditor

That sounds very likely Replay. It's possible that Achamian deducing that Kellhus could see the Consult spies all along would be just as much of a barrier in his mind to teaching Kellhus the Gnosis as the usurpation of Serwe. There aren't a whole lot of mental barriers that rascally rabbit can't dig his way under though. view post


posted 16 Jul 2004, 09:07 by anor277, Didact

While I agree that the Cishaurim is certainly at war with the Consult I am not sure that any ranking sorceror of any school could be a skin spy. The reason being of course that the skin spies do not have the sorcerous “taint” that would be recognized by any fellow sorceror. Of course the Scarlet Spires grandmaster, Sasheoka(?), whom the Cishaurim assassinated, may have been an agent of the Consult (i.e. the Consult offered him an alliance of some sort), but the current master, Eleäzaras (spelling?), seems to be pursuing no agenda other than of his own device. As to what happens when Kellhus meets his father, who knows. Moenghus has obviously discovered bigger priorities than those of the Logos, whether he convinces Kellhus of that remains to be seen. I do think that Achamian will eventually teach Kellhus the Gnosis, after all what real enmity can Achamian hold towards Kellhus? view post


posted 16 Jul 2004, 14:07 by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

A hell of a lot after Esmenet, I think. view post


posted 17 Jul 2004, 05:07 by saintjon, Auditor

Don't forget the months of pretended friendship where he could have shown everyone that Akka wasn't a kook and instead followed his own agenda. I would be disappointed in Akka if he didn't hold a huge grudge at this point. I COULD see him cave, given his estimation of Kellhus' importance and his newfound devotion to the Mandate, but I REALLY don't want him to. view post


posted 17 Jul 2004, 05:07 by anor277, Didact

Why should Achamian bear a grudge towards Kellhus because of Esmenet? As far as Kellhus and Esmenet knew, Achamian was dead. In fact Achamian should thank Kellhus for saving the life of of his ex-lover - she would have shared the fate of all the other camp followers had not Kellhus taken her as his lover. I think Achamian is analytical enough, even after his first jealous outbursts, to realise the truth of this. On the other hand Achamiam realises that Kellhus has been deceiving him for all those months as has been pointed out above....maybe this will drive him back to the Mandate's bosom. view post


posted 17 Jul 2004, 12:07 by Joel, Commoner

[b:31dp33yg]Replay[/b:31dp33yg]: Why would Moenghus care enough about the Consult to launch a covert war on them? We know little about Moenghus, but if Kelhus is any guide, he wouldn't really care until they started interfering with his goals. So what could that possibly be? This is where I keep coming to in my thoughts. So much seems to rest on this one man whom has barely been written. Has he been corrupted by the world, straying far from the Dunyain path? Or has he reached a truer enlightenment and seeks to initiate all upon the shortest way? blah, blah, blah.....Who is he and what are his goals? The hidden war between Moenghus/Cisharium and the Consult certainly provides a great reason for calling his son after all those years. But, I alos tend to agree with Anor277 about the head of the Scarlet Spires not being a skin-spy. I think it's more likely that the consult masqueraded as the Cisharuim to enlist the Scarlet Spires might. Besides, why have two high ranking skin spies in the same faction? Aren't they rarer than that? Scarcellus and Skaeos both seemed alone in their respective camps. Of course, so far all skin spies have names beginning with S. Hmmmmm. Can skin spies also be members of the few then? That could certainly change things. I agree with [b:31dp33yg]Saintjon[/b:31dp33yg]. I really don't want Achamiam to teach the Gnosis to Kelhus either. But, I do think he's going to learn magic. He's not the type who would let any advantage atrophy. Which brings me back to my original question about Kelhus becoming a Cisharium like his father. It still seems likely to me. I'm strange in that I want to be surprised. Having Achamiam cave and teach Kelhus is just too expected. Wow, I didn't realize I was so jaded. [b:31dp33yg]Anor277[/b:31dp33yg]: Why would Akka bear a grudge? Page 574 (10th paragraph or so) of the Warrior Prophet; '[i:31dp33yg]I carry his child.[/i:31dp33yg]' How? How could she betray him? " You somehow survive the impossible, thanks in part to the love you share with your soulmate, stagger back across untold hardships only to find the love of your life, your reason for living (especially in Achamiam's case), in bed with your closest friend. I certainly wouldn't blame him for holding a grudge before you get into all the other reasons regarding manipulation and deception. But, if Achamiam can get past his emotion than yes, it makes perfect sense to teach him the Gnosis. Can he though, is something we just have to wait and see. Any bets? An interesting angle might have Akka teaching the Gnosis to Kelhus so he can gain respect and regain the pride that was lost when Conphas and the other Great Names mocked him. Becoming the open advisor/teacher to the reborn Warrior Prophet/Saviour kelhus would certainly show those who mocked him a thing or two. Speculation is fun. Wish I could finish reading the trilogy tomorrow though. view post


posted 17 Jul 2004, 13:07 by Replay, Auditor

Your right we don't know much about Moenghus' motivations, but I would think there could be plenty of reasons for him to start a war against the consult. It may have been at one point he met a Mandate sorceror, listened to his story, and believed him - as Kellhus did Archamian. I doubt then it would take that much to motivate him if he thought the Consult were intent of wiping all of man off the face of the world. Or perhaps when he came to the Cisharium he found skin spies there and cleaned them out because they were in the way of his own plans. That could have easily started a war that escalated. As for the head of the Scarlet Spires being a skin spies, I would now agree that it is unlikely he was one. But the timing of it does seem to indicate that Moenghus was involved in that assasination in some way. Just what that involvment was though is open to question. On Akka's felling betrayed by Kellhus, I think there maybe a good chance he will become much more suspicious of him from now and perhaps even start to see him for what he was because of this. Of course knowing AKka, there is also a good chance he won't as well (I don't know about anyone else, but I found it a bit dissapointing that Akka soon reverted to his previous behaviour after returning. Being a prisoner had seemed to finally make him stop feeling sorry for himself and grow up a little). view post


posted 19 Jul 2004, 01:07 by saintjon, Auditor

It's too bad for Akka that Cnaiur thinks he's only slightly less valuable than horse crap. view post


posted 19 Jul 2004, 02:07 by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

Since we don't know the aims of Moenghus, it could be that he anticipated the consult interfering and moved preventatively, before they had the chance to be ready or realize his strength. Or maybe he just doesn't like them, though that doesn't seem very dunyain. I definitely think there are any number of explanations for a possible war between Moenghus and the Consult. view post


posted 21 Jul 2004, 11:07 by Iceman, Candidate

I consider it more likely that the Consult considered the Cisharium and Moënghus as an obstacle. First trying to control them, and when that failed it gradually turned into outright war. At the moment I can’t see why Moënghus would initiate a war against the Consult. As for the previous leader of the Scarlet Spires, he probably wasn’t a skin spy but he could have been cooperating with the Consult. Perhaps he was promised the secret of the Gnostic? view post


posted 21 Jul 2004, 22:07 by legatus, Auditor

[quote="Iceman":1zvqwem1]I consider it more likely that the Consult considered the Cisharium and Moënghus as an obstacle. First trying to control them, and when that failed it gradually turned into outright war. At the moment I can’t see why Moënghus would initiate a war against the Consult.[/quote:1zvqwem1] My view on the war between the Consult and the Cishaurim is similar. The speed with which they made an overt move against Kellhus once they realised he could see their skin spies and thus mitigate their manipulation over the Holy War speaks to the severity of their concern over the threat he poses to their plans. It stands to reason that they'd attribute an equal level of threat to Moengus, and the Consult has had decades to observe him and gauge the danger of his abilities, whereas they acted against Kellhus in mere months. Granted, I assume they'd draw parallels between father and son, and thus move more quickly against Kellhus, but even so, it seems very likely that they'd have also tried to dislodge Moengus from his sphere of influence within the Cishaurim, leading to an all out conflict when that failed. I do get the impression that the Consult's investigation regarding the identity of the Dunyain is an immediate response to their observation of Kellhus and his Dunyani, however, so I get the feeling that even in the decades of watching and warring with Moengus, he's managed to keep them in the dark about a great many things, including his connection to the Dunyain. I imagine they've made inferences about the link now that Kellhus has made his appearance, with Cnaiur and his insights into their sect in tow, and shed more light on where these mysterious men that can see through their disguises came from though. view post


posted 22 Jul 2004, 05:07 by Damaen, Candidate

Logic ala damaen. The consult has been built as the major antagonist of the two books thus far. While Fanimry has been the short goal, the long term goal seems to be the consult, as its being built up and built up all the time, and akka, kelhus, and possibly Moe (abv. for Kell's father) are tied to it. Moe is pulling Kell to him. I think its likely he played this to have Kell dominate and bring with him the Holy War. If Moe is or controls the Cisharim, and i find it likely, and we know the consult is the bad guy (because i need them to be for this) that means book 3 will see Moe and his Cisharum link with a kelhus led Holy War in a last minute attempt to defeat a discovered and horrible Consult threat. people in this thread asked why Moe would fight the Consult, and suggested that the COnsult saw him as a threat and started it. But that makes no sense. They've been hidden for so long and are supposidly so powerful that i dont see how 1 of the many factions alone could be considered a threat. Its more likely that Moe saw them and realized that the end of the world was probably not his best plans for the future and started stuff. I find it [b:3alkgymi]VERY VERY LIKELY[/b:3alkgymi] the assasinated GrandMaster of the Spires was skin-spy, and the consult took offence to this. Consult + Spires = horrible enemy, Moe denied this equation to start a war, bring his son and the war to him to fight the consult. i think thats basically going to be the overplot for book 3. if Kelhus can pretty much do as he pleases (which is boring and i hope there is a plot twist here) and Moe is supposidly stronger than he, the plot will be as i suggest simply because these characters are hereto infallible. but i could be wrong. view post


posted 22 Jul 2004, 06:07 by anor277, Didact

@Damaen, if Sasheoka (assassinated SS grandmaster) was a skin spy he must have had the taint of sorcery to continue his imposture. No skin spy that we have seen has that sorcerous taint – hence the perplexity of the Myunsai and Saik schools when they unmasked Skeäos. Consult sorcery (probably Gnostic) has the taint likewise (at least the Inchoroi synthese, the Old name bird man, did). Ergo, Sasheoka was not a skin spy. This is not to say that the Scarlet Spires were not in league with the Consult in Sasheoka’s time; if they are in league with them in Eleäzaras’ time it’s apparently not with their Grandmaster’s knowledge. I am at a definite loss to decide which faction is which or what the real agenda of Moe, Kell, the Cishaurim are. view post


posted 22 Jul 2004, 20:07 by Damaen, Candidate

Dammit. the Mark argument owned me. Another great late night argument down the drain. view post


posted 23 Aug 2004, 14:08 by anor277, Didact

It’s hard to see the Consult orchestrating Sasheoka’s assassination in that both Iyokus and Eleazäras remember the occasion and shudder at the fact that the Cishaurim assassins do not bear the mark of sorcery (the stain on the Onta, whatever that is). Consult sorcery, as far as we know, is Gnostic; its practitioners certainly bear the sorcerers’ mark. For whatever reason, the Cishaurim did assassinate Sasheoka. view post


posted 23 Aug 2004, 21:08 by Mithfânion, Didact

[i:1p4t122l]I end with a question: has there in fact been evidence to suggest that Book Three is to be the last book? [/i:1p4t122l] Yes, Scott has said so. More series dealing with the Second Apocalypse will follow though, possibly two duologies. view post


totally random idea posted 25 Aug 2004, 17:08 by ravana83, Commoner

I do wonder how effective mOneghus might have been at infiltrating and manipulating the consult ... maybe tat's why he is perceived as a thereat to their plans? view post


addendum posted 25 Aug 2004, 17:08 by ravana83, Commoner

* the commoner has really poor spelling ** view post


posted 25 Aug 2004, 22:08 by Andrew, Peralogue

Q: I highly doubt Maithanet is Moenghus. Reason: Maithanet began the holy war against the Fanim. Even assuming Moenghus could predict that Kellus would come to find him and join the holy war on it's way to Shimeh, it seems like such an insane risk. What if Kellus could not dominate the war? what if he were killed before getting there? How could Moenghus be certain that Kellus wouldn't continue his original mission and use the holy war to slaughter all fanim in an effort to get at Moenghus? We KNOW Moenghus either is a cishaurim or is controlling a faction of them without being one. He would basically be putting his entire people on the chopping block if as 'maithanet' he ordered a Holy War. Don't you think there would be an easier way to have Kellus emerge from Ishual? Kellus could potentially dominate a Mandate schoolman in other circumstances. Or Moenghus could teach him the Psukhe. I realize that the Dunyain can to a degree control the future, and no doubt Moenghus has all sorts of powers having come into the world - it just seems to absurdly risky - not to mention that if Moenghus/Maithanet's true design is to defeat the Consult, by starting the Holy War as a ruse (or whatever), he has caused the slaughter of several hundred thousand Inrithi, plus many many thousand Fanim - fighters which otherwise could have been directed against the Consult. As to Maithanet's motivation for helping Achamian? WHO KNOWS! Except, if it had to do with teaching Kellus the Gnosis, what pray tell could Proyas do to help? Proyas could not convince Achamian of anything - certainly Proyas would be the WORST candidate to convince Akka to teach SORCERY to Kellus (recall Proyas thinks sorcery is evil!). Thus, i think the idea that Proyas was supposed to help Achamian because Maithanent wants kellus to learn the Gnosis because Maithanet is Moengus, Just Does Not Make Sense. view post


posted 26 Aug 2004, 10:08 by anor277, Didact

Achamian's map might be a good crib (hint?) as to who the factions are - after all he's trying to work out who is who and who is playing whom. Myself, i can't see Maithanet as being anything other than a creature of the Consult (why else proclaim holy war as the last post points out?). Of course, Achamian's map does not explicitly include Moenghus, but he's on the map as a member (and likely evil genius of) the Cishaurim view post


posted 26 Aug 2004, 21:08 by Andrew, Peralogue

Q: you were ahead of me - i hadn't even considered that maithanet might be moenghus. Like you, i tend to just let the story unfold and not analyze anything. Only when someone suggests something do i bother thinking about it. Anor227: I don't think Maithanet is consult - why declare against the Fanim you ask? why not? The Fanim have led many holy wars against the Inrithi and vice versa - i'm not sure any more motive is required other than the liberation of Shimeh. Here's what i see as being evidence on the theory that Maithanet is with the Consult: 1) he declared the Holy War 2) he knew of the war between the Cishaurim and the Scarlet Spires 3) he can see the few - Skeos recognized Achamian as a Mandate Sorcerer. That suggests the skin spies can see the few. On the other hand, maybe the skin spies can only see Mandate Schoolmen? Maybe they can see Seswatha hanging as a shroud about them? 4) Maithanet's uncanny success at rooting out spies and his uncanny rise to power. 5) Maithanet took an interest Achamian, asking Proyas about him after Achamian came before Maithanet in TDTCB - Actually if i recall correctly, Maithanet knew Achamian was a mandate schoolman and that proyas knew him - if so, that would be the strongest thing in my mind to say Maithanet was a skin spy. Here's what i see as being against the Maithanet as a skin spy theory: - most skin spies we've seen have been close to the powerful without actually being on of the powerful. Skeos - counsellor to Ikurei; Sarcellus - close to Gotian, knight commander of the Shrial Knights; Chepheramunni - not sure, but wasn't around the 2nd/3rd in command level with Ainon/Scarlet Spires? - As one of the most powerful men in the world, a skin-spy Maithanet would be in extreme risk of assassination. Can you imagine how much sh*t would hit the fan if an attempt were sucessful and maithanet's face opens up? - He instructed Proyas to aid Achamian (strongest point in my opinion) - At the time of the letter from Maithanet, the Consult must have been aware Achamian was with the Holy War - no one in the world but a Mandate Schoolman would even think to look for the Consult amidst the Holy war - thus, a Mandate schoolman journeying with the Holy War would be the greatest threat to the enterprise being uncovered as a Consult scheme. In that context i can't believe Maithanet (if he were a skin spy) would instruct Proyas to aid Achamian. - All 5 points listed above can be explained away and are not particularly convincing. The swift rise to power is the most difficult in my mind to understand, but why can't that happen naturally for an exceptionally gifted individual? view post


posted 28 Aug 2004, 04:08 by legatus, Auditor

[quote="Aspect-Emperor Conphas":2ea1k8mh]The Consult, however, will NOT be defeated in the Thousandfold Thought.[/quote:2ea1k8mh] Agreed. The Prince Of Nothing trilogy will bring the Holy War to its conclusion almost certainly, and deliver Kellhus to Shimeh and his father. I seriously doubt, however, that the Consult will have even re-entered the general consciousness of the average Three Seas denizen as a palpable threat, let alone face any semblance of defeat. They'll likely end up being revealed to the key players of the series by the end of the third book mind you, as they've already been to Kellhus, Achamian and company, vindicating the Mandate's mission in the minds of those occupying the seats of power around the Three Seas. I don't see any concerted offensive against them taking place until at least the second trilogy, however, but more likely still, not until the third. The story arc for this first trilogy is the Holy War, while the everpresent threat from and conflict with the Consult will likely form the overall arc tying the three trilogies in Earwa together. Given the scope of Scott's epic, I doubt we'll see a conclusion to the story even after 5 years though, since he's planning on taking a break from Earwa after The Thousandfold Thought. I'd give it 10 years to be on the safe side ;) view post


posted 29 Aug 2004, 03:08 by tellner, Peralogue

Other bits of evidence that Maithanet is Consult.... 1) Kell only saw him from far away but felt there was something wrong about him. 2) "Follow the money". Who benefits from the Holy War? Not the Tuskers. Not the Fanim. On the other hand, the Consult gets its enemies to wear each other down. Let's you and him fight. view post


posted 31 Aug 2004, 23:08 by Scarred, Candidate

[quote="tellner":2hyj75u5]Other bits of evidence that Maithanet is Consult.... 1) Kell only saw him from far away but felt there was something wrong about him. 2) "Follow the money". Who benefits from the Holy War? Not the Tuskers. Not the Fanim. On the other hand, the Consult gets its enemies to wear each other down. Let's you and him fight.[/quote:2hyj75u5] I'm not so certain of that. If Maithanet was Consult, then why wouldnt he have declared a holy war on the schools, eliminating the Madate who are the only ones that could possibly find the Consult threat? Maithanet is, in my mind, the counterpart to Moengus. Both stand from afar, yet still seem to figure in all decisions and influence everyone. My guess would be that Maithanet is somehow either connected to the Dunyain, or the Non-Men. But I definitly see the merit in your argument. view post


posted 20 Sep 2004, 02:09 by JustifiedHeretic, Peralogue

Yah I'm thinking something is up wiht that, it can't be that easy, btu who knows. I was really hoping that Moehengus wasn't him, just the whole no eyes and stuff thing....I know that it's really wierd that that seems my reason, but still, that's my reason haha view post


posted 02 Oct 2004, 20:10 by Ssalamanderr, Commoner

It seems to me like Maithanet is in league with the Consult. We know the Consult and the Cishaurum are at war. In one part (I can't remember which book, probably the Warrior Prophet) the Synthese/Old Father punishes Sarcellus for almost "losing the Holy War." I think the Consult must have orchestrated the Holy War to destroy the Cishaurum. I think "Moe" may have summoned Kellhus to take control of the Holy War and use it against the Consult instead. As for why the Consult and Cishaurum are at war, my theory is that Moe discovered the skin spies (like Kellhus did) realizing that he couldn't read their emotions and found out enough about the Consult that they considered him a threat. view post


posted 27 Oct 2004, 22:10 by Inner_visions, Candidate

Good points all around. First off Archaiman has been through a f*~* of a lot but, it points near the end that we would teach him the Gnosis. Clearly, as said by the bird man, that the Holy War was their weapon to destroy the Cishaurum. That's why they need it to keep going to SHimeh to finish it. Why they want to destroy the Cishaurum is hard to know but, they'll surely been setting the Holy way up well. What it looks like(to me) is that the 'secret' war between the Scarlet Spires and the Cisharum is nearly the COnsult fighting the Scarlet Spires so that it looks like it's The Cishaurum. So, the Scarlet Spires will help the holy war when asked my Mainahet. (point to the conclusion that he is in fact Consult.) Moeghus, seeing that the Consult was amassing this massive plan to kill him and his Cishaurum, decides to do the only thing that will get the Dunyain to one of their own to come out of hiding, proving himself a threat using something they themselves don';t understand.(Sorcery.) The dunyain thinking they know everything that si worth knowing(The Logos), are afraid of the unknown powers that Moeghus has decide to send what looks one of their most intelligent disciples, his son, to make sure that their hiding place is not found or whatever. Kellhus brings himself slowly to the Shimeh but by some happenstance, there is a Holy war going on, and it's going to SHiMEH! He sees this as the shortest path to Shimeh and takes over it. Now all that's left for Moeghus to do is to controll the son(Kellhus) and he sets back the Consults plan and he has another Dunyain as is allie. Something like that? I might post again to continue with my view on the events. Also I believe that Bakker hinted at the reason Moeghus put The Logos down on the shelf of priorities; that is, emotions/connections between people. I only say this because Kellhus is becoming slightly attached to thos around him. (Esmenet and his followers in paticular) I might be wrong completly or this may be how Moeghus intends to controll him. He might have fallen to emotions himself and knows that his son will sucomb to them aswell. Anyways, whatever the next book is or what happens in it I am deeply saddend by that fact that this is a trilogy. I know that a writter needs to set concrete goals but this series was so epic(to me at least) that 3 books seems to put it to shame. Like, after I read the first book I never thought to how far it would go only that it could go as far as it wanted. After the second book my opinion on that was made concrete because all the Holy war was move and so many things happened it was astounding. For sejenus's sake were not even at Shimeh yet, and no one knows what the hell is going to happen there. BAkker if you end this all in Shimeh i'm gonna be pissed.[/rant] view post


posted 25 May 2005, 17:05 by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

Just to throw this out there, as I am not all that great at theorizing either, but is there a possiblity Maithanet could be a Nonman, or some derivative thereof? view post


posted 25 May 2005, 18:05 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

I definitely get the feeling that he is not just a pious Joe Shmo. The two times we have seen him, through the very different eyes of Akka and the Emperor, he is most impressive. I just wish Kelhus had seen him, that would have been telling. I want to say he seems Dunyain trained because he's rooted out all outside human spies. He could have left the skin spies in place because it wasn't time to reveal their existence to the world... which would mean he is part of a greater plan. (I still think he is working with Moenghus). Or, he could be just a more awesome man because of some Nonman heritage and be able to sniff out spies, but not read faces and thus root out skin spies. anyone else get the feeling that Nilnamesh is sort of India on the map... having some Inrithi there somehow reminds me of the legend of Prester John which was rampant in medieval Europe... view post


posted 26 May 2005, 01:05 by H, Auditor

[quote="Tattooed Hand":2uqbviyk]I want to say he seems Dunyain trained because he's rooted out all outside human spies. He could have left the skin spies in place because it wasn't time to reveal their existence to the world... which would mean he is part of a greater plan. (I still think he is working with Moenghus). Or, he could be just a more awesome man because of some Nonman heritage and be able to sniff out spies, but not read faces and thus root out skin spies. [/quote:2uqbviyk] Hmm, other's have theorized that Maithanet could have been driven to stat the Holy War because of some interaction he had with Moenghus, either driving him to want to destroy Moenghus, or help him. Although, what strikes me about your post Tattooed, is that it could be the case that Maithanet was under Moenghus tutalage at some point in time, learning to read faces, and possibly to find Skin Spies. This makes sense for my theory that Moenghus manipulated Maithanet to start the Holy War. I'll lay it out like this: 1.) Moenghus needs to find a way to start a Holy War (for various reasosn). He cannot do this himself, he'll need someone ambitious enough, and obscure enough that no one will see the his mechanations behind his assent. 2.) He finds Maithanet, and trains him in the skills he will need to become the Sharia, and be powerful enough to consolidate the power needed to start a Holy War. This would include being able to read faces, and see skin spies. 3.) I don't think Moenghus could persuade Maithanet to start the Holy War, so he mainipulates him, either by betraying him, or some such, into desiring to destroy him and the Cishurum. 4.) Given the tools, the position, and the power, Maithanet does exactly what Moenghus wants (and knew he would do), and sends the holy war to Shimeh, and to Moenghus. This could explain why Maithanet wants to protect Akka? Possibly knowing that Gnosis may be the only thing powerful enough to bring down Moenghus? It could also be the case that Maithanet is working with Moenghus and wants Akka to be safe to deliver the Gnosis to Shimeh (for Kellhus?). But i doubt Maithanet would do this, unless he was duped, or misled by Moenghus. view post


posted 26 May 2005, 03:05 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

I agree with you, although I think Maithanet could be persuaded to aid Moenghus willingly (what ever that means with a Dunyain) due to the common threat of the Consult. The Consult is definitely a bigger problem than infidels or sorcerers. It would also explain how Maithanet knows about the war between the Scarlet Spires and the Cishaurim. He's only been Shirah for two years before the start of the war, which would mean he was still in the south when the attack on the Spires took place. The holy war is more a means of gathering the Three Seas under one banner. Of course, the staggering loss of life in the cause of the greater good is rather revolting... it would mean that Moenghus is one persuasive teacher! view post


posted 30 May 2005, 16:05 by White Lord, Subdidact

I'm just inserting something that's occurred to me. All this speculation is very interesting, and for all we know accurate, but has no one ever thought that another dimension may also be at work? Sorcery exists as a fact in Earwa. The gods, or the God, are also venerated, and several things tend to point to their actual existence. One of the more important points of TWP, and I guess TTT is whether Kellhus is truly a prophet. Then you also have this ciclicity of Apocalypse, with the line of Anasurimbor that alone can lead humanity against the No-God. There are many indications that the god/s themselves may be directing the "Great Game" to some extent. This is most pronounced in Kellhus, who seems to think he's master of his own actions, and yet their result is often contrary to his wishes, but strangely enough [i:9fe8gbmw]not[/i:9fe8gbmw] against what we would consider positive for the "good guys". So what I'm saying is that, personal convictions regarding motivation aside, Maithanet may have been divinely "moved" to adopt a certain course of action, just like Kellhus seems more and more to do as the plot in TWP advances, although, in both cases, inadvertently, and in order to further the cause of the God/s (if he/they [i:9fe8gbmw]are[/i:9fe8gbmw] taking a hand, that is . . . :)). view post


posted 24 Sep 2005, 21:09 by RiderOnTheStorm, Candidate

@WhiteLord, While what you surmise is of course totally possible i would be disappointed if it turned out to be correct. To me, teh thought of divine intervention is a cheap authors ploy.. The story and the characters would be much more engrossing and intriguing if there was little to no divine intervention. That is just me though.. Btw i find the theory that Maithanet is allied with or part of the Consult most persuasive. The way i read into what Scott writes is that the evil that organized religions and by extension its believers do far outweighs whatever good those religions might do or represent. That doesnt automatically mean that Maithanet is "evil" but i think it plays a part. view post


posted 25 Sep 2005, 03:09 by Scariot, Commoner

I just wanted to throw this out there concerning the Consult's war with the Cishaurim. So far, it seems the Consult's main and ultimate goal is to resurrect the No-God, and bring about the second apocalypse. Also, while we have learned precious little about them, it seems that they are trying to use to holy war to crush the Cishaurim and somehow further their own objectives. The roles of Anasûrimbor Moënghus and his son Anasûrimbor Kellhus, in this situation seem to be vague at best. From what I've read, it looks like Moënghus' goal at hand is bringing his son to him. I think that it's very unlikely that Kellhus' summoning from Ishual just so happened to occur at the same time the holy war was proclaimed. Knowing of Kellhus' Dunyain training, Moënghus most likely intended for his sons' domination of the holy war. So to sum up my earlier points, I think that Moënghus has summoned his son, 'The Harbringer of the Second Apocalypse' to him, to dominate the threat of the holy war and bring an nearly unstoppable army to his doorstep. But, this still doesn't touch on the Consult's reasoning for war on the Cishaurim and conversly with Moënghus. The Consult would only wage war if they thought that Moënghus could somehow endanger their plans for the resurrection of the No-God. Throughout tDtCB and tWP, the Heron Spear has been mentioned several times. This weapon, which has supposedly been lost (at least to the Mandate), is the bane and only defense to the horror that is Mog-Phauru (sp?). So, put these points together and you come to one conclusion, the Heron Spear, The consult's greatest fear is in the hands of an Anasûrimbor, soon to be united with his son, the Warrior-Prohpet. Other than that, I haven't guessed much concerning what will happen during tTT. view post


posted 26 Oct 2005, 16:10 by Q. Sertorius, Commoner

There are just too many unknown variables at this point. That Moenghus is Mallahet is pretty much the only theory discussed in this thread that is anyway near being certain, thus the rest of my post will follow this assumption. For the Consult, it is clear that the Holy War's purpose is to wipe out the Chisaurim. That vast numbers of Inrithi and Fanim will be killing each other instead of their true enemy is undoubtedly a helpful but merely a side benefit. (On a related note, depending on what the Consult plan for after the war, they are also forging a dangerous enemy. Although lots of Inrithi have perished, the core of an extremely dangerous army has been formed. Think Caesar after his conquest of Gaul, after fighting nonstop for seven years, his men were all but invincable.) I really am curious as to the truth behind the assassination of the old head of the Scarlet Spires. It beggars belief that the Consult was not involveved in some capacity. From what I remember, the assassination was the opening salvo in the war not just another skirmish in an ongoing feud. If Moenghus ordered it, than he must have some heck of a reason. Occam's Razor seems to dictate that the Consult ordered it. Too much benefit is gained by them. Now there is that little problem of how the Consult was able to trick the Scarlet Spires that the Chisaurim were behind it, but that seems (to me at least) far less of a stretch than Moenghus purposefully directing a 300 k army with the most powerful anagogic school accompanying directly against himself. RiderOnTheStorm-Divine Interventionn is not always a bad thing. I think it depends on how subtley it's done. Tolkien does it pretty well in The Lord of the Rings, for example. Frodo was [b:33eqf5sb]meant[/b:33eqf5sb] to find the Ring, Gandalf was [b:33eqf5sb]sent[/b:33eqf5sb] back, Gollum tripping, etc. Again, discretion is the key. So far, I think Scott's entirely capable of that level of subtlety, if divine intervention is what he's going for. Quintus view post


posted 26 Oct 2005, 19:10 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

[quote:3lvf6vit]Now there is that little problem of how the Consult was able to trick the Scarlet Spires that the Chisaurim were behind it, but that seems (to me at least) far less of a stretch than Moenghus purposefully directing a 300 k army with the most powerful anagogic school accompanying directly against himself. [/quote:3lvf6vit] You realize that Moenghus could view this as perfectly logical if he thinks that perparation for the second Apocalypse can only come through forging the Fanim and the Inrithi through the crucile of Holy War. It sounds like something that would make sense to the totally amoral Dunyain who see only the shortest path. view post


posted 26 Oct 2005, 19:10 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

Sorry, I mean crucible. I can't spell. view post


posted 26 Oct 2005, 20:10 by Q. Sertorius, Commoner

Tattooed Hand, Ah, but doesn't that assume that Moenghus is not only the enemy of the Consult but is also intimate with a rather esoteric group of prophecies. Remember, Kellhus had no knowledge of what being an Arasurimbor means until his discussion with Achamian. As far as we know, the only people with knowledge of the Harbringer are the Mandati, a rather tight-lipped group. It is entirely possible that Moenghus learned of the the prophecies from a different source, but that is pure guesswork. I agree with you that, based on what we know of Kellhus, Moenghus is entirely capable of killing vast amounts of people for the shortest path. At the same time, anyone brilliant enough to perceive that his direst enemies attacking him with 300 k soldiers and the most powerful anagogic school is to his advantage is probably capable of coming up with a slightly less hazardous plan. On a side note, that Moenghus would allow the Holy War's water supply to be destroyed is a troubling, but perhaps not insurmountable, issue for those thinking that the Holy War has always been his. Quintus view post


posted 26 Oct 2005, 20:10 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

Well, he sent for his son knowing full well he'd have to get through hordes of Sranc and the northern waste and would probably only get out by the skin of his teeth. He probably knows his training and his sons and perhaps has calculated all the odds. The hardships of the journey are part of preparing Kelhus. We have to assume Daddy is tough as nails and will survive almost any circumstances. Plus, he is in a position of power, so we know he is somewhat protected. I don't get the feeling that the Mandati are that tight-lipped about prophecies since they add to the credibility of the Mandate's mission. I think a general ignorance of the prophecies is because most in the Three Seas don't believe in the mission anymore. The gnosis is another matter and tight lipped doesn't even begin to describe it. view post


posted 28 Oct 2005, 14:10 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Tattooed Hand":2chot13d].........We have to assume Daddy is tough as nails and will survive almost any circumstances. Plus, he is in a position of power, so we know he is somewhat protected.........[/quote:2chot13d] I think the assumption that Moenghus is as hard as nails is very sound. He apparently survived enslavement at the hands of the Sranc. This even impressed the Scylvendi, who were his next captors view post


posted 28 Oct 2005, 15:10 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

Wait, he did? Enslaved by the Sranc? I guess I haven't read the books in a while - can you tell me where it says that? view post


posted 31 Oct 2005, 13:10 by anor277, Didact

Actually, Moenghus captivity at the hands of the Sranc, may even have a bearing on the plotline of the [i:1ggzuqqx]Thousandfold Thought[/i:1ggzuqqx]. Here, I am idly speculating that Moenghus (as a dumb, witless, slave whose life continually hang by a thread) had a chance to observe the Consult, and perhaps hatch a plan to combat them. Of course, we don't know how much insight Moenghus gained of the the Sranc or the Consult while he was their captive. Moenghus had been conditioned to read human faces; for the Sranc he would have to learn how to read a new "species". view post


posted 01 Nov 2005, 21:11 by Q. Sertorius, Commoner

anor277, That's absolutely brilliant. I remember reading that passage before but only thinking about the physical aspect of it. While it's entirely possible that Moenghus only interacted with Sranc, we finally have a plausible reason to consider him an enemy of the Consult. Amazing job. Gosh I can't wait til TTT come out. Quintus view post


posted 02 Nov 2005, 13:11 by Echoex, Auditor

It also leads one to wonder if the Sranc evolved to protect themselves from the Dunyain. If I recall, they're described as having rather featureless faces. This would prohibit the Dunyain from having that advantage over them. .Ex. view post


posted 02 Nov 2005, 15:11 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Q. Sertorius":2jrhxqyb]anor277, That's absolutely brilliant. I remember reading that passage before but only thinking about the physical aspect of it. While it's entirely possible that Moenghus only interacted with Sranc, we finally have a plausible reason to consider him an enemy of the Consult. Amazing job. Gosh I can't wait til TTT come out. Quintus[/quote:2jrhxqyb] As a speculation it is reasonable (and someone may have made it before). The problem is we have no other evidence to support it. We have not seen the actual Moenghus yet and we don’t know the extent of his machinations. I think somewhere in PoN, Kellhus wondered how his Moenghus would have fared in a world of unconditioned humans, whom both he and his father could read like a book - Moenghus may be operating long, long term. And yet, if Moenghus is Mallahet, and certainly that is the general assumption, we are left to wonder how powerful a blind Dunyain could be (or are the Cishaurim truly blind?). And TTT comes out in January? Shyte!! [i:2jrhxqyb]edited for an extra point[/i:2jrhxqyb] view post


posted 02 Nov 2005, 15:11 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

The Cishaurim are definitely not blind. Else how would the Cishaurim at the end of TWP have been able to spot Kelhus on the roof top and sail over to him. They see through those snakes around their necks. The blinding (like so many mystic and shaman practices) is suppose to open a different kind of sight, which probably has something to do with being able to access the Puske (sp?) and why other sorcerers can't see it. And then they can somehow see through the snake's eyes. view post


posted 02 Nov 2005, 16:11 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Tattooed Hand":244inl5u]The Cishaurim are definitely not blind. Else how would the Cishaurim at the end of TWP have been able to spot Kelhus on the roof top and sail over to him. They see through those snakes around their necks. The blinding (like so many mystic and shaman practices) is suppose to open a different kind of sight, which probably has something to do with being able to access the Puske (sp?) and why other sorcerers can't see it. And then they can somehow see through the snake's eyes.[/quote:244inl5u] And is reptilian vision as good as human sight? I'd rather have my original two mince pies. The "mystical" granting of second sight involves a sacrifice, the loss of visual perception. I imagine that Moenghus went through his Cishaurim bar mitzvah with some trepidation. Anyway, this is all speculation. view post


posted 02 Nov 2005, 17:11 by Q. Sertorius, Commoner

anor277, I agree that it is far too early to to come to any conclusions. It's just nice to have a piece of evidence that makes it a possibility that Moenghus is an enemy of the Consult. It seems that a number of theories posited on this thread simply assumed that he was the Consult's enemy without any grounding at all. Quintus view post


posted 10 Nov 2005, 03:11 by shockwave, Candidate

[quote="Echoex":1t7p5pgm]It also leads one to wonder if the Sranc evolved to protect themselves from the Dunyain. If I recall, they're described as having rather featureless faces. This would prohibit the Dunyain from having that advantage over them. .Ex.[/quote:1t7p5pgm] I dont think the Sranc are concerned with that, since they are only the grunts/foots-soldiers. Why would they need to hide the emotions on their face if the only one(s) they know is: bloodthirst/fear/anger, without regard for its effect on their prey. So much unlike humans. Remember that in TDTCB they attack him without prejudice, without questioning, without fear or regard. Except for his skill i assume, after the first 5 have fallen to his sword. In general i think that Sranc are 'recognizable' enough for any man not to confuse them with anyone or [b:1t7p5pgm]anything[/b:1t7p5pgm] they know. Moenghus has been in the 'real' world for 30 years. His presence and his potential/power cant have gone unnoticed. Kellhus has been there for what, 2 years max now? Considering how Kelhuss can still easily sort the consult skin spies from the 'normal people' suggests that either: 1) the skin spies are relatively new (which doesnt support shasheoka being a skin spy..) 2) if the skin-spies arent new, that the consult did not care (!!) to leave them open to recognition. I dont understand how either of these square, so im missing a possibility.. who helps me out here? Shasheoka was assasinated 10 years ago. So if he was a skin-spy, they were already known 10 years ago. Why else would Mallahet/Moenghus assasinate him? (the most accepted theory on this board). Yet there have been no more assassinations (that we know of, besides the Mandate's spies and the Emperors spies being off'd one by one) after that. If Eleazeras was found to be a skin spy, why was noone found for 10 years after that? It doesnt make sense if you consider Moenghus's ability and potential power. Cant there be another reason for this assassination? Shasheoka and Eleazeras were as close 'as ainoni men are'. What does this mean? Maybe they were lovers and they didnt leave each others side at all and that would make it hard to replace either with a skin-spý. More so even if it had to be a sorcerer skin-spy. I think there is more to this, another reason we are missing. view post


posted 10 Nov 2005, 12:11 by anor277, Didact

[b:caq0is9f]Shockwave wrote:[/b:caq0is9f][quote:caq0is9f]Cant there be another reason for this assassination? Shasheoka and Eleazeras were as close 'as ainoni men are'. What does this mean? Maybe they were lovers and they didnt leave each others side at all and that would make it hard to replace either with a skin-spý. More so even if it had to be a sorcerer skin-spy. [/quote:caq0is9f] It is nearly certain that Sasheoka was [i:caq0is9f]not[/i:caq0is9f] a skin spy. As far as we know skin spies are technological artefacts which do not have sorcerous origins. A skin spy posing as a sorceror would lack the sorcerous stain, that other sorcerors so readily perceive, necessary for impersonation. Ergo, Sasheoka, Eleäzaras, Achamian, etc. , all practising sorcerors are not skin spies. Which still leaves us the question why the Cishaurim assassinated the Scarlet Spires grandmaster. view post


posted 10 Nov 2005, 13:11 by Echoex, Auditor

[quote:1h3j4dxa]Considering how Kelhuss can still easily sort the consult skin spies from the 'normal people' suggests that either: 1) the skin spies are relatively new (which doesnt support shasheoka being a skin spy..) 2) if the skin-spies arent new, that the consult did not care (!!) to leave them open to recognition. [/quote:1h3j4dxa] The Dunyain are trained to read faces. Blushes, twitches, and the subtle changes in musculature. The skin-spies -- because of their unique physiology -- don't respond the same way that humans do. Kellhus would have picked up on that. [quote:1h3j4dxa]I dont think the Sranc are concerned with that, since they are only the grunts/foots-soldiers. Why would they need to hide the emotions on their face if the only one(s) they know is: bloodthirst/fear/anger, without regard for its effect on their prey. So much unlike humans. [/quote:1h3j4dxa] Maybe the Sranc aren't concerned with that. But maybe their makers are. .Ex. view post


posted 10 Nov 2005, 15:11 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

We are certain that Moenghus is a member of the Cishaurim and controls a faction within it. If we accept that he is a mastermind of the Holy War, in order to make the war feasible, some extraordinary circumstance would have to make a School march with the Inrithi. I think Moenghus arranged the attack on the Scarlet Spires to create such a circumstance - the need for revenge against the Cishaurim. It seems to have worked. The Scarlet Spires is the biggest School in the Three Seas and without them, the Inrithi would be slaughtered by the Cishaurim. Sorry for my spellings, I am hung over. view post


posted 10 Nov 2005, 17:11 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Tattooed Hand":150kzcfa]We are certain that Moenghus is a member of the Cishaurim and controls a faction within it. If we accept that he is a mastermind of the Holy War, in order to make the war feasible, some extraordinary circumstance would have to make a School march with the Inrithi. I think Moenghus arranged the attack on the Scarlet Spires to create such a circumstance - the need for revenge against the Cishaurim. It seems to have worked. The Scarlet Spires is the biggest School in the Three Seas and without them, the Inrithi would be slaughtered by the Cishaurim. Sorry for my spellings, I am hung over.[/quote:150kzcfa] But why have a Holy War at all? (And kill off a very sizable proportion of the Three Seas' military strength - Fanim and non-Fanim and render two major sorcerous schools [i:150kzcfa]hors de combat[/i:150kzcfa]). If Mallahet/Moenghus is at war with the Consult, engineering such an war an internecine war should be his last priority. view post


posted 10 Nov 2005, 17:11 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

Yes, but perhaps he thinks that the mobilization and transformation of the disparate groups and interests of the Three Seas can only be done through the crucible of war. The Kian are basically defeated by what is now the largest army in the Three Seas and a lean, mean fighting machine. They are united behind the Circumfix with Kelhus having sacred status at the helm. And I think it is through this process that the Consult even become reality, since so many think they are the fantasies of delusional Mandati. Perhaps the way to win against the Consult requires tactics that would have gone against the grain of the imaginable but now can be accepted through Kelhus. Of course, we'll see how much Kelhus can really control now in TTT. Nothing ever is as total as it seems. view post


posted 10 Nov 2005, 17:11 by shockwave, Candidate

@ .Ex.: But why would the Sranc need to evolve? Except to become better fighters. Their facial expression is already 0, they just attack and kill. I dont think Kellhus's abilities have alot of influence on them, except that he is a better swordsman etc. But not the facial interpretation part. Their masters must know this. @ anor277 & Tattoo: Thanks for clearing that up. I thought i had read most of the topics about Shasheoka being a skin-spy or not. Then i agree with anor, that íf Moenghus is the architect of the Holy War, it does not make sense. Maybe he considers it worth the sacrifice: half the number, but increased strenght through unity. As ive seen mentioned before elsewhere, not a strange path for Dunyain logic to follow. But still a big gamble, if this was the shortest path, im curious what the other paths were. Besides, it seems that now some have been shown the skin-spy by Akka, they do not think it so unlikely anymore that the Consult is real. The only reason i can think of why Moenghus didnt think of something like that, is because there werent skin-spies yet, so he didnt have acces to that strong piece of evidence. view post


posted 11 Nov 2005, 08:11 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Anonymous":1a8uzzk2]So wait. Do consult spies bear the taint or not? If they bear the taint, then the cishaurim could have assisnated one Consult agent that led the Scarlet Spires. If they don't bear the taint, then they could have assisinated the leader of the Scarlet Spires to start a war to eliminate the Cishaurim. This is what I thought really happened.[/quote:1a8uzzk2] As far as I know, (and as far as Achamian clearly understands) skin spies do not bear the taint of sorcery - therefore they could not impersonate non-Cishaurim sorcerors. On the other hand, Sasheöka's assassination could not have been accomplished by Consult agents. Skin spies do not practise sorcery, and Consult sorcery, as far as we can reasonably surmise, is Gnostic. We have Iyokus (? Eleäzaras 2iC) and the grandmaster's account that the assassination was "silent" in terms of sorcery. Ergo, the assassination must have been performed by the Cishaurim (or by a faction within the Cishaurim). Excuse me for repeating myself so many times. I think it is worth going over again and again. I am going to kick myself if we learn something in TTT that we could have reasonably anticipated from the 1st two novels. view post


posted 11 Nov 2005, 12:11 by Echoex, Auditor

Shockwave: How much do we really know about the Sranc? If you were to design the perfect weapon, would you design it so your enemies could use it against you? view post


posted 12 Nov 2005, 16:11 by shockwave, Candidate

Ugh, wasnt logged in when i posted the above. view post


posted 18 Nov 2005, 17:11 by Echoex, Auditor

[quote:j1usfx79]As you say, i cant really know, but i suspect they are foot-soldiers without the emotions or passions someone would need to be possessed by a Dunyain for example. So in a way they are already protected.[/quote:j1usfx79] Okay, so if you were to create a more perfect weapon to defeat a people who use emotion and passion against you, you would make that weapon devoid of emotion and passion, correct? I think you helped prove my point. Ex. view post


posted 18 Nov 2005, 20:11 by anor277, Didact

My post above, sorry. Just to add that the Dunyain might well learn to read the Sranc and may have already done so. They (and certainly Moenghus) have encountered them before. Even Kellhus alone learned the rudiments of reading the skin spies. The scene where he pretended to respond to Sarcellus' jibe that he (S) had enjoyed both of his (K's) peaches was tremendous. view post


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