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Breaker of Horses and Men posted 26 Apr 2007, 22:04 by Coldsnap, Commoner

As brilliant as the plot is, and I do truly mean that: the Dunyain phiolosophy, the clash of religions, Kellhus and Moengus, Achamian and Sesthwana... the historical clash between the ancient kingdoms and the Inchoroi, sranc, scylvendi and the No-god... MY FAVORITE AND MOST RESPECTED CHARACTER IS CNAUIR. Who is with me here? I see him underestimated here and there in these threads because he was world-born or not a sorceror, or one person implied he was just a product of having been used by Moenghus... But let's not forget that he impressed Kellhus more than anyone else. I would wager he was the greatest mortal warrior to walk the earth, brilliant strategist, massive in all contexts... larger than life! His descriptions throughout the novels are fantastic, his penetration of all Kellhus tries! His one-liners are the best! Better than all the ajencis and dunyain philosophies. He is brutual and horrifying, and yet my favorite part of all the novels. My god, sometimes i reread how much he stands apart from even the Scylvendi as Most-violent of all Men! He beats sarcellus in one on one battle, he kills hundreds in the battle of Kiyuth, he give Kellhus pause in their first and only fight... and he represents, to me, a pure and brilliant anti-thesis to some of the concepts that the world seems to be run on: Dunyain perception and control, Sorcery, Religion, Inchoroi.... And so that is all I have to say as my first post! In a world so complex, full of insanely powerful creatures, sorceres, people.... Cnauir was by far my most favorite! view post


posted 27 Apr 2007, 03:04 by RazorSmile, Candidate

Can't argue with that. Here's hoping he appears in the next book - somehow. Perhaps kept in his prime by Inchoroi science or as a hivemind of Cnair-skinspies. view post


posted 29 Apr 2007, 11:04 by Sokar, Auditor

I am with you..I've been trying to explain how he became my favourite, but I still fail in that..I suppose there is something in his 'madness' that attracted me most... view post


posted 01 May 2007, 06:05 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

While not my favorite character (Kellus is number one with me still), Cnaiur is definitely *among* my faves. He's number 3 for me (Ikurei Conphas is/was second). He's smarter than the average man, but he still falls into some of their "low" ways (beats his women, kills children of rival, etc). Bakker spends time on Cnaiur's psyche and does a great job of explaining how Cnaiur mostly just apes the actions of his fellow Scylvendi while his inner intelligence constantly forces him to ask himself why he does what he does. If Cnaiur was born in Nansur, I sort of imagine he'd be a great philosopher or at the very least, a highly intelligent general (Conphas level intelligence). view post


posted 01 May 2007, 06:05 by Gravity Gun, Candidate

Ummmm, are we forgetting something here? How about the fact that he is insane? Also racist? Every other word out of his mouth (if it's not a spit) is "the People" this and "the People" that -- he completely buys into the notion that everybody else is just sacrificial animal, whose lives are totally worthless. His extreme misanthropy borders on the comic. Had he lived, he would surely be leading the No-God's cavalry during the second apocalypse. He's a well crafted character to be sure, but certainly not personally likable to me. I mean, ask yourself this: would you want him for a roommate? :wink: view post


posted 01 May 2007, 09:05 by Curethan, Didact

Hehe. Cnaiur as a roomy. Nice. Crazy as he was, I felt sorry for him. Conphas was a psychopath and much worse than Cnaiur. Interesting, however, that Kellhus could counter Conphas easily, yet Cnaiur's madness had a kind of quantum effect that Kehlus could not predict and was even in awe of. The consult need Cnaiur - he'll be back imo and a showdown with older-Kellhus during the great ordeal would be sweet. view post


posted 01 May 2007, 17:05 by Sokar, Auditor

Actually..I have kind of idolized him..he could live in his insanity... Unlike Conphas, he wasn't delusioned..he knew what he was and what others pretended to be... When I read the parts concerning Serwe, his madness got even more appealing..the parts about Achamian and Esmenet are to feel sorry for, with Cnaiur I didn't, he cut his own throat as a swazond and that something you idolise rather than pity... Again, I am not sure why, but Cnaiur is by far the most intriguing character..he simply in his complexity..and complex in his simplicity... And there is something of madness that keeps you wondering.... I am afraid that the consult will change that, just as Kellhus did when learing the art of war from Cnaiur.. (then again, Cnaiur's madness reached a certain hight after that :D) Anyway, I hope that this maddening character does not become a rational general of some sort in the next of the series..would truly ruin it for me... view post


posted 01 May 2007, 18:05 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote:11q3qbxb]....he completely buys into the notion that everybody else is just sacrificial animal, whose lives are totally worthless. [/quote:11q3qbxb] I disagree, he simply tells himself and others, these things to try and convince himself that they are true, Cnauir maybe completely insane but its only because he lives a lifestyle that he knows he does not agree with. Cnauir's story can be summed up in two words "Inner Conflict". view post


posted 02 May 2007, 03:05 by Gravity Gun, Candidate

[quote="Warrior-Poet":17uealzm]I disagree, he simply tells himself and others, these things to try and convince himself that they are true, Cnauir maybe completely insane but its only because he lives a lifestyle that he knows he does not agree with. Cnauir's story can be summed up in two words "Inner Conflict".[/quote:17uealzm] Sure, he has questioned some aspects of Scylvendi custom under the influence of Mo, but I remember no instance where he has ever questioned the central tenet of Scylvendi ideology: everyone else is only sacrificial animal for the People to offer on the altar of the dead No-God. BTW, his martial brilliance also should not be exaggerated -- certainly Conphas, probably Skauras, and maybe even Fanayal are all better than him. Remember, his incompetence nearly doomed the Inrithi on the banks of the Sempis. view post


posted 02 May 2007, 10:05 by Sokar, Auditor

See..here comes the difference between idolising someone to such an extent where you simply disagree with something bad being said about the character..even if grounded... Anyway..the reason for Cnaiur not quesitoning this idealogy is because it is present in the acts of the Dunyain..at least that's how I see it in both actions of Kellhus and Moengus. And his military genius is evident from two aspects, again to me..first Kellhus wants to learn war through Cnaiur, not through Conphas, indeed perhaps because he knows how to manipulate him, whereas Conphas' vanity has always been an obstacle to that end... But also because he is of the People..they live war! Second, there is a part I clearly remember where Caniur thinks to himself that if he would lead the battle of Kyuth? they would have won..but also Conphas himself acknowledges the strength of Cnaiur at a certain point to the end..when Caniur becomes his prisoner..where he laughs at him in disbelief that this man was the one he was afraid of..yet it is merely his vanity that takes over once again, rather the undestanding the circumstances... view post


posted 02 May 2007, 17:05 by Phil, Candidate

I would also agree that Cnaiur was Conphas's better on the battlefield. The Lion of Kiyuth would have been the Dead Man of Kiyuth if Cnaiur had been in charge. view post


posted 08 May 2007, 13:05 by coobek, Candidate

Agree. Cnauir is also my favourite beacuse of all the traits already mentioned above, one-liners and his barbaric intellect and madness. view post


posted 09 May 2007, 01:05 by Harrol, Moderator

And who else would challenge a skin spy to take a knife to his heart? view post


posted 09 May 2007, 15:05 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I'm also a big fan of Cnaiur, something about the character and the conflict. I'm hoping he will be in AE as well. view post


posted 17 May 2007, 11:05 by Moebius, Commoner

I really like Cnauir, but he is much too confused about who he is and what he wants for him to be my favorite. I mean I guess the fact that the guy is completely insane has something to do with it, but even when he is normal or as a young man he seemed completely clueless about who he really is. view post


posted 28 May 2007, 00:05 by Buckethead, Peralogue

[quote:bq1ed0vy]Sure, he has questioned some aspects of Scylvendi custom under the influence of Mo, but I remember no instance where he has ever questioned the central tenet of Scylvendi ideology: [/quote:bq1ed0vy] i'm sorry i don't have a direct quote or specific point of reference but here goes. i remember thinking the way you do after reading the book the first time, however after wanting to get a firmer grasp on what was going on i reread the series as closely as possible and was surprised to find that in TTT cnaiur actually begins to return to thoughts of the people's way of life being too traditional and conservative. at one point he thinks to himself that there could be no going back to that way of life because fo his disagreement to it. it is as if the more time he spends around proyas, the skin spies and the closer he gets to moenghus, the more he relapses into his young idealistic "screw tradition" self. he stops spending as much time telling himself he is the greatest all men and therefore the greatest scylvendi and begins to tell himself he is only the greatest of all men. i think this all culminates in moenghus' death when it is quite clear for the first time that cnaiur (although full of hatred for moenghus) really just wanted his old friend/lover/teacher and convictions back (or probably more acurately: to never have left in the first place). my take i know many will disagree... i'll try to find a quote. view post


posted 28 May 2007, 21:05 by Harrol, Moderator

I know what you are talking about. It is where he stated that he could kiss whatever lios he so choose. view post


posted 15 Jun 2007, 04:06 by shiva, Commoner

After Cnaiur tells Akka about Kellhus and gets what he wants he doesn't kill Akka. Instead he warns Akka of Conphas' treachery and send him to warn the holy war. His last words to Akka are "I'd not see Proyas dead." He saves "cattle" with nothing to gain but the life of his friend, who is also cattle. there is your proof ;) Shiva view post


posted 16 Jun 2007, 22:06 by Callan S., Auditor

I always wondered if it was something about me, that I never thought he was insane. I don't like him - it was Akka that got me through the first book. But he's never struck me as insane, like the back of the novels always refered to him as... ...now, a broken heart....that I can see. view post


posted 18 Jun 2007, 17:06 by Harrol, Moderator

Or a man who has no reference point in life outside of hate. view post


posted 19 Jun 2007, 10:06 by Callan S., Auditor

Well, exactly - no reference point except that hate, and that hate was based on...the person he loved, utterly. view post


posted 19 Jun 2007, 17:06 by Harrol, Moderator

Callan I agree. Insane? No deeply hurt and single minded? Yes. Plus a few more things that have been mentioned earlier. view post


posted 19 Jun 2007, 19:06 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

Um, I'm going to have to disagree; homey was whacked out! He was crazy! Loony! Psychotic! Off his rocker! MAD! However it was the good kind of mad. He didn't drool on himself, or count straws in his head or any of the other stuff that would get you put in an asylum. He was just homicidal, that's all. Severely homicidal. :lol: His lover drove him mad. His lover's sun drove him crazy. Can you blame the guy for being a little bit loopy? And to keep with the point of the thread... I think he'll be much more stable when we see him next. view post


posted 22 Jun 2007, 14:06 by slh_2000, Commoner

He'll be either stable in mind or a skin spy. either way, he MUST return! view post


posted 22 Jun 2007, 17:06 by Harrol, Moderator

A skin spy could never duplicate Cnaiur. view post


posted 23 Jun 2007, 14:06 by Sokar, Auditor

LOL view post


posted 23 Jun 2007, 19:06 by avatar_of_existence, Peralogue

Cnaiur represents to me the sheer resilience of a mind under seige. Being able not only to survive but to thrive in the presence of manipulators (until of course the ending). Cnaiur is the tragedy of the Prince of Nothing series, not to say that he's the only one, just the biggest. When a friend asked whose plight I associated myself with most in the series the answer was obvious: Cnaiur, Breaker of Men. view post


posted 24 Jun 2007, 02:06 by non-Ajencis, Commoner

Yes, Cnaiur urs Skiotha is one of my favorite characters, too. For some reason he reminds me of what the Mongols might have been like. Ghengis Khan himself? I have a niggling suspicion that Mr. Bakker models his main characters around historical figures. view post


posted 25 Jun 2007, 18:06 by Harrol, Moderator

In another thread Scott stated that he base the Scylvendi off of the Scythians and the Sarmatians not the Mongols. view post


Predictability posted 26 Jun 2007, 13:06 by poeg, Commoner

Exactly why he's the most interesting to me. He's the only wild card in the whole deck. view post


posted 16 Sep 2007, 04:09 by Shell, Peralogue

I just finished TTT about three hours ago, and have been roaming this site... I agree with Carral and Harrol. Never once did I see Cnaiur as insane, and was, in fact, suprised to see it even mentioned! Victim of child sexual abuse? Probably (and confirmed at the end, depending on your POV). Angry? Definetely. Guilty over obviously liking "stronger arms"? Yes. Conflicted that his thoughts strayed from the traditions of the People? Certainly. Hurt and betrayed? Yep. A survivor? For sure. But insane or mad? No. view post


posted 16 Sep 2007, 21:09 by Magewind, Commoner

Does anybody else picture Cnaiur as Arnold Schwarzenegger in the Conan days? view post


posted 16 Sep 2007, 23:09 by Harrol, Moderator

To Magewinds question I would say no. I never thought of Cnaiur that way. In fact the closest thing to Cnaiur I can think of would be Guts off of Berserk but even then I would say Cnaiur is more fierce. view post


posted 16 Sep 2007, 23:09 by Shell, Peralogue

To Magewind, Ah-nold is too bulky, too slow. I see Cnaiur as leaner and therefore quicker, but still a large man. view post


posted 17 Sep 2007, 00:09 by Shell, Peralogue

It just occured to me that Cnaiur is a lot like Karsa Orlong in the Malazan series. view post


posted 17 Sep 2007, 02:09 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Shell":14m1ynci]To Magewind, Ah-nold is too bulky, too slow. I see Cnaiur as leaner and therefore quicker, but still a large man.[/quote:14m1ynci] I always had the idea of Yul Brynner (maybe a bit bigger). I remember years ago that after Brynner's death he had paid to have himself appear on advertising commercials entreating people not to smoke. The funny thing was that Yul Brynner still looked magnificent in these commercials - even despite the fact that he was 70+ and stricken with lung cancer. ([i:14m1ynci] eta: I just learnt that Brynner was only 65 when he died - he still looked like a million dollars in his last days[/i:14m1ynci]) view post


posted 17 Sep 2007, 03:09 by Curethan, Didact

Cnaiur I pictured as uglier, leaner, meaner and more hirsute than any of the above decriptive analogues. [quote:3iiunfsy]I agree with Carral and Harrol. Never once did I see Cnaiur as insane, and was, in fact, suprised to see it even mentioned![/quote:3iiunfsy] I would definately describe him as insane - the fact that we can identify with his case and understand his psychoses is down to Scott's skill as a writer rather than him being a sympathetic and rational character. Sane people do not run round getting 'possessed', screaming at random folk to kill them and rooting holes in the ground. view post


posted 17 Sep 2007, 03:09 by Shell, Peralogue

Desparate, however, people will do all of the above... I am not denying that he could use some time on the couch with his therapist every week. Its because he is "so out there" that I don't think he is crazy. Insane people are always described as "He was such a shy, quiet, nice boy. I never imagined he was chopping up people in his basement...." ala Jeffrey Dahmer. The thing about insane people is that they seem so normal, until we dig up their backyard... I always imagined Cnauir as, well, not ugly. He was described has having "sensual lips" somewhere. view post


posted 21 Sep 2007, 09:09 by Curethan, Didact

Erm, most crazy people I have met seemed pretty crazy.... Only psychopaths act the way u described, and they are fairly rare - and Conphas was a psychopath. Cnaiur was crazy as a talking pineapple in a spaceship. Or do you really think you could reason with him? I would give the psychiatrist about 50 very hefty bodyguards and a large tranq gun before I forced him to have Cnaiur in for therapy. Perhaps you are confusing the fact that you understand his problems with him being sane, because you are and you can understand. In his position would you go hang with the skin spies? Take one for a lover - even knowing what it is? Murder without cause? Kill your allies? Rape and enslave? Worse - we know that these actions are because he is basicly a good person in an awful world and he feels he has no choice - trapped between his people and the dunyain. How could he not be insane? I think that knowing you are beyond any hope of redemption in your own heart is the basis of the worst kind of insanity - it's why religon has an afterlife init? view post


posted 22 Sep 2007, 01:09 by Harrol, Moderator

Sane people do not run round getting 'possessed', screaming at random folk to kill them and rooting holes in the ground That is what you think! view post


posted 22 Sep 2007, 03:09 by Shell, Peralogue

Well, according to the Catholic Church you don't have to be insane to be possessed... :shock: (Did I miss something? I really tried to read slow, but just had to find out "what happens" so read faster than I should have. Where was Cnaiur possessed?) Curethan, I think I see where we are disagreeing. I think you are saying insane = psychopath=complete break with reality, and I am using "crazy" as more of a generic term, in the sense of having a grasp of reality. Conphas - psychopath, or at least bipolar or something Serwe - completely delusional You could give these two Prozac by IV and they both would still completely living on another planet. Murder and rape does not mean one is insane by itself, or every crimanal in this country would get off on an insanity plea. Besides, *eveyone" rapes and murders in this story. Being female, the only person I'd feel safe with is Proyas (maybe), and Akka (he's still mooning over Esmi and wouldn't notice me). Kellhus would just talk me out of my clothes and make me think it was my own idea... As far as killing your alliies, Cnaiur was a tool and he knew it. He wasn't hanging with these people because they were his buddies. In fact, I felt nobody even acknowledged that he was human as nobody even addressed him by name, it was always "the Scylevendi". And the war was his tool to get him to Moe. It was mentioned that when the Scylevendi weren't fighting Nansur, they were fighting each other, so the concept of ally was slippery at best. I think people can do crazy things under extreme situations. How many people have heard of mothers being "crazy with grief" and throwing themselves on a child's coffin? Is she really insane (break with reality)? No, but three years later and she is still doing the same thing? Probably insane. Another real-life example. During the early part of WW II, the Nazi's cut off food to Holland during the winter of '41 or '42 - the Dutch Hunger Winter, and some really fascinating epidemiological studies have come from it. Like any story of famine, these people were eating grass, leaves, boiling shoe leather with rat meat for a touch of flavor...and eating the dead guy who froze to death the night before. When interviewing these people years later, they would say they were completly sane, but having to do crazy things to survive. My point being that people who are under duress, may do crazy things or appear crazy, but are in touch with reality. As far as the skin spies, once again I saw Cnaiur as using them as tools to get what he wanted, Now,(and I hope I don't get banned or whatever for this!) didn't it seem that Scott *almost* wrote these skin-spies sympathetically? At least they weren't as odious as Sarcellus, seemed to give him a modicrum of respect and even sort of had conversations? So, OK, I will go with Cnaiur doing some really strange and "crazy" things, but painfully in touch with reality. You think he is a good person? Hmmm, that is really interesting, I will have to think on that one. I absolutely agree that he was trapped between his people and the Dunyain. Maybe they are the crazy ones... :D Anyway, love the discussion! You eally make me think about things and defend my position. Thank you! view post


posted 24 Sep 2007, 04:09 by Curethan, Didact

:) hey thanx Hmm, at Joktha he is described as being aspected and screams about having stalked the Nansur for a thousand years, then just starts screaming "Demon" at them. I think when he rapes Conphas (which he afterwards can't remember) he is thinking of how there must be a demon to match Kellhus as prophet. I'm sure there are several other examples where he raves about being a demon and also where he is described as manifesting the aspect of the god of war - but I can't look them up atm because I've lent out my copies :P Yeh, I do think that he is a basicly good person - possessing empathy and a high level of intelligence. Imo it's what makes him vulnerable to psychosis - he knows that his people's ways are not 'right' - at least for him. Even before Moeghus' influence he was regarded as 'weak' - it's why Moe chose him as the target of his manipulations. I agree that sane people do crazy things (my father is from Holland and was there during the Hunger Winter co-incidentally) - but Cnaiur spent 30 years struggling to regain his sense of self-worth and his place in his society - things critical to a being a balanced individual, all this while his position was undermined by the fact that his peers 'knew' of his degenerate and unworthy nature (in their eyes). At the time of Kelhus' arrival, I would suggest that he was regarded as dangerous, unbalanced and kinda mentally sick even amongst his own very violent and represive culture.... Thru the trilogy I see him becoming more and more sick - I belive Scott has researched many of the key indicators of delusional psychosis very well. I understand what you mean about missing bits of the story as you're swept along with the narative, I caught a lot more of details (especially on this matter) on my second reading. And reading a book twice is not something I do very often. Frequently, he cannot remember his actions, or his motivations. He hears voices upraiding and demeaning him. He can see no path beyond his insane goal of revenge, nor even any real way that he can achieve it. The past mingles with the present. By the time he confronts Moenghus, I fail to see any way he could ever recover any semblance of sanity. I don't think his condition is a temporary coping mechanism or blowout at all. view post


posted 24 Sep 2007, 13:09 by Shell, Peralogue

Curethan, I find it funny that you think he is a good guy, but completely insane, and I think he is completely sane, but not very nice...either way, neither one of us would want to be in the immediate vicinity of Cnauir! :D Well, I will have to re-read the books again because I have no recollection of some of what you describe regarding his behavior. As someone said in this forum "I have no belly to re-read the books at this time". In fact, I had to put fantasy aside (hasn't happened in a decade at least) and am reading "And The Band Played On: Politics, People and the AIDS Epidemic". Nothing like depressing reality to get over depressing "reality" in an entirely fictional world. Did Scott ever weigh in on this issue? Speaking of Conphas, I wondered why he never denounced Cnauir after the rape... view post


posted 28 Sep 2007, 03:09 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Shell":3ro8sy2i]................. Speaking of Conphas, I wondered why he never denounced Cnauir after the rape...[/quote:3ro8sy2i] Conphas' circle of generals [i:3ro8sy2i]did[/i:3ro8sy2i] know what Cnaiur had done. Conphas had either told them, or (more likely) they had found a prone Conphas beaten and buggered half to death. Of course it would have severely tarnished Conphas' lustre to become known as Cnaiur's bitch. view post


posted 28 Sep 2007, 20:09 by Shell, Peralogue

I didn't get the feeling that Conphas buggery was a problem with his men. It seems they were more upset that they having to ally with lifelong enemies, the Fanim, against those of their own religion. Conphas himself was quite happy to keep Cnaiur alive after capturing him. I also never got the feeling that homosexuality had such a prohibition against it among the Nansur as it did with the Scylvendi. After all, incest doesn't seem to be a problem in Conphas' own family. view post


posted 01 Oct 2007, 23:10 by Shell, Peralogue

Curethan, I keep forgetting to ask you why you think Cnaiur is hairy? It seems like he is the only one who doesn't seem to have a big, nasty, ol' beard. view post


posted 02 Oct 2007, 07:10 by Curethan, Didact

Lol, I dunno, now I come to think of it.... Just one of those things I guess - Scott seems very much a member of the 'less is more' school of descriptive embelishment regarding his characters. (I think its only during TTT when someone calls Akka a pict that we discover he is dark skinned.) But I always had the image of Cnaiur as hirsute - some kind of hairy = wild meme in my head, I guess. :D Do barbarians shave? Mind you, with the amount of swazonds he's always cutting - he probly doesn't have room for hair because of all the scar tissue. view post


posted 09 Oct 2007, 17:10 by Sokar, Auditor

[quote:34vbyjcp] the fact that we can identify with his case and understand his psychoses is down to Scott's skill as a writer [/quote:34vbyjcp] Actually this is most probably because we all have momentary lapses into insanity. Scott writes great, true, but our identification has nothing to do with that.. [quote:34vbyjcp] I think that knowing you are beyond any hope of redemption in your own heart is the basis of the worst kind of insanity [/quote:34vbyjcp] Again, quite the opposite is true..at least that's what I think... When you know you are beyond any redemption (not Christian way), you find peace with yourself, as you realise that nothing will change that. It is the extreme case of willing that is the cause of insanity (which I think is more applicable to Caniur, though I don't agree with it either). Then again, I am simply speaking of my own experience, and I doubt that many perceive this the same way. And something else.. I am not sure if Scott tried to depict our own society, which I think he did not, he simply took elements from it. But all these aspects of insanity, homosexuality, incest and what ever not, are simply morals imposed by the societies depicted in the novel. There can be no judging of these, as our judgment comes from our (I suppose mostly Western, though there is little differences) societies. Then again, I have read way too much Nietzsche in the summer, never mind my previous encounters with Foucault.... PS I am back for this one post, Cnaiur is simply the best character I have encountered. As I said somewhere, he is the most human of them all. view post


Cnauir is the No-God posted 02 Nov 2007, 10:11 by Tristin, Commoner

Our favorite character becomes the No-God. It's obvious. He's being tutored by Inchori skin-spies, and in that last battle before he is taken by Cornphas he is described as a God. He is awake, he is the No-God reborn. He needs a little bit of make-up, some Tekkne if you will. Who better to ask, What do you see? WEEPER FAGGOT!?! view post


Re: Cnauir is the No-God posted 14 Dec 2007, 05:12 by ashaman33, Commoner

I just finished reading the trilogy an hour ago. I don't know who my favorite character is but I do respect Cnaiur the most. He is the most honest character to me. He does delude himself some but so does everyone. I gues Kelhuss is the most honest character with himself but he is such a damnable liar I can't fully trust him. Although the end of the book he does give promise that he realizes that his talents should be bent to serve the greater good (stopping the 2nd apocalypse) and not just to protect the Dunyain. I loved the way Cnaiur was able to protect himself from Kellhus. His inner struggles with coming to grips with himself as a man, as one of the People, as one who thinks different from the people becauae fo Moengus's intervention, as the killer of his father, as the leader of the UTemot, as the leader of the Utemot who is disrespected by all other Scylvendi no matter how much he tries living in the way of the people and being better at being Scylvendi (WAR) than any of them, struggling to protect himself from Kellhus's manipulation, struggling as an ally with the Inhitrians, struggling to see Kellhus take his woman, struggling to make every sacrifice to have his vengeance on Moengus, struggling with his homosexuality. I would think these are enough struggles to drive most anyone mad. Essentially this is how I read Cnaiur. He is a young man, whose first love is forbidden love. Homsexuality. He is guided by his mentor to see that the ways of his people are limited and so to see himself as different. He is led by his mentor and lover to betray his father leading to his father's death. He realizes aftrewards that he was used by his mentor/lover who didn't really love him. He realizes that he was turned against his father, his family, his people by someone who doesn't love him and as such he doubts everything that he became as a result of Moengus's teachings. Rationally, he repudiates Moengus and his teachings and spends the next 29 years attempting to be everything and more that a Scylvendi man should be. He is that but is never forgiven by his people for his betrayal of his father and for being a "weeping faggot". Realizing that he has spent his life of 29 years trying to be the best Scylvendi possible and realizing it will never be enough. Kellhus represents a chance to get revenge on the person he holds responsible for his never ending shame. When he finds Moengus, his love for him raises to the surface from where he had buried it for 30 long years, BUT his INTELLECT alows him to realize that he cannot trust anything that Moengus says and he kills Moengus. His ability to use his intellect over his passion as a world born man amkes him unique among all the world born men that we have seen in my opinion. What do you all think? view post


posted 14 Dec 2007, 14:12 by Shell, Peralogue

A very good post on Cnaiur, and I agree with most of it. The part of don't agree with (and there is *huge* discussion over on "Is Cnaiur gay) is that I don't think he is homosexual just because he had one male lover, and that one at 15. I don't think Cnaiur thinks he is homosexual either because he was utterly surprised, if I remember correctly, when he was called a "weeping faggot". Deep down, most of my gay friends knew they were homosexual, and maybe just denied it to spare family or whatever. But they would not be surprised to be called faggot. I think in a culture as the Scylenvendi, where love and other tender feelings are ignored, any person of either gender who showed an interest or caring when you were 15 would probably end up as your lover. It is unforutunate that Moengus had ulterior motives. Another point to bring up is how come we are so facinated by Cnaiur and his male lover? Why don't we bring up whether Moehgus is gay or not? Or whether Emsi and Serwe are lesbians? I still can't decide if Kellus is a liar, either, or just tells you what you want to hear. view post


posted 14 Dec 2007, 18:12 by ashaman33, Commoner

[quote="Shell":2xue1jlt]A very good post on Cnaiur, and I agree with most of it. The part of don't agree with (and there is *huge* discussion over on "Is Cnaiur gay) is that I don't think he is homosexual just because he had one male lover, and that one at 15. I don't think Cnaiur thinks he is homosexual either because he was utterly surprised, if I remember correctly, when he was called a "weeping faggot". Deep down, most of my gay friends knew they were homosexual, and maybe just denied it to spare family or whatever. But they would not be surprised to be called faggot. I think in a culture as the Scylenvendi, where love and other tender feelings are ignored, any person of either gender who showed an interest or caring when you were 15 would probably end up as your lover. It is unforutunate that Moengus had ulterior motives. Another point to bring up is how come we are so facinated by Cnaiur and his male lover? Why don't we bring up whether Moehgus is gay or not? Or whether Emsi and Serwe are lesbians? I still can't decide if Kellus is a liar, either, or just tells you what you want to hear.[/quote:2xue1jlt] I don't believe that Cnaiur thinks that he is gay, but when the sexual and emotional relation ship that he cares the most about is a homosexual one, then he is at least bi-sexual. Just re-read his emotions at the end before he kills Moenghus, he still has major feelings for the guy that to me says he buries his feelings of homosexuality because it is contrary to the way the people think. It also makes you wonder about him buggering Conphas. As to Kellhus being a liar. He admits several times throughot the books in his own thoughts that he is lying to people, telling them what they want to hear. I know that he lies to Esmenet. Most of the time he doesn't have to lie because he manipulates people so well with the truth that they end up believing what he wants them to believe which is usually a lie. Don't forget his two biggest lies, that he is a prince of Athrithu and that he is a prophet. Also when Kellhus was speaking to his father, Moenghus did an explanation of how Kellhus came to the point where he is by following the Dunyain way and he specifically mentioned that he had to lie. So yes, Kellhus is the biggest liar in the series. Again Kellhus main purpose in joining the Holy War was to manipulate it so that he could control it and use it as a weapon against his father. Now 99.9% of everything that he actually said was true but because he was speaking within the framework of a lie, it was all manipulation and in furtherance of his lie. I think it was Jordan's the Wheel of Time where I first read that the best lies are almost all truth with just one tiny part that makes it a lie. That way it is very believable because it is in fact mostly true. view post


posted 14 Dec 2007, 19:12 by Shell, Peralogue

The whole scene with Conphas was rape, and rape is not about sex, its about power, so I don't think it qualifies as a "relationship", or even homesexual. I suspect his feelings for Moehgus initially came from the validation and interest Moengus (however fake) showed him as a child. Think of a Catholic priest and all these sex abuse scandals. The priest cultivates trust and an interest in the child, many times in the context of distant or unavailable fathers, then later the relationship turns sexual. Using the same analogy, with Cnaiur being the eqivalent of an alter boy (wow, he is so *not* an alter boy :lol: ), I know a few childhood-priest abuse victims personally. While they struggle with depression, anger, drug use/alcoholism, and suicide attempts, not one of them considers themselves gay or even bi-sexual - even if it was several incidents of molestation, even if they admit is was (shamefully) pleasurable. If that is the relationship that Cnaiur "cares" about the most, and I would substitute the phrase "affects the most", I think its in the context of betrayal and hate, not love and caring. You certainly can't describe his feelings for Moenhgus as warm and fuzzy, contrary to most people's memories of a first love. view post


posted 14 Dec 2007, 20:12 by ashaman33, Commoner

[quote="Shell":1odelxe6]The whole scene with Conphas was rape, and rape is not about sex, its about power, so I don't think it qualifies as a "relationship", or even homesexual. I suspect his feelings for Moehgus initially came from the validation and interest Moengus (however fake) showed him as a child. Think of a Catholic priest and all these sex abuse scandals. The priest cultivates trust and an interest in the child, many times in the context of distant or unavailable fathers, then later the relationship turns sexual. Using the same analogy, with Cnaiur being the eqivalent of an alter boy (wow, he is so *not* an alter boy :lol: ), I know a few childhood-priest abuse victims personally. While they struggle with depression, anger, drug use/alcoholism, and suicide attempts, not one of them considers themselves gay or even bi-sexual - even if it was several incidents of molestation, even if they admit is was (shamefully) pleasurable. If that is the relationship that Cnaiur "cares" about the most, and I would substitute the phrase "affects the most", I think its in the context of betrayal and hate, not love and caring. You certainly can't describe his feelings for Moenhgus as warm and fuzzy, contrary to most people's memories of a first love.[/quote:1odelxe6] The Conphas thing coul be argued but it i snot important enough to me right now to argue so I cede the point. I definitely feel that Cnaiur loves Moenghus. His "hate" for Maoenghus is so extreme, I believe that he simply brainwashes himself to think that he has hated Moenghus for all these years. I think that emotionally he loves him still. My strongest reason for this is his reaction when he finally meets Moenghus again. He allows himself to be held and passionately kissed and he even resonds with "ardour" to Moenghus's kiss. This involuntary reaction is truth to me. He did not intend it but it is how he felt. Notwithstanding how he felt, what he knows intecllectually is that Moenghus is Dunyain and thus a manipulator and a liar. Moenghus cannot be trusted and is still the reason why he has suffered for most of his life. Moenghus is why he was never accepted as one of the people. Plus the fact that Moenghus immediately wants to continue the pretense of love that Cnaiur knows is not true is just one more reason to kill him. Passion vs Intellect. Cnaiur os one of the strongest intellects in Earwa. The conflict of his intellect, passion, and the culture of the People turned him insane, but the strongest part of Cnaiur is intellect and it won out in the end. War is Intellect. Moenghus is Cnaiur's enemy and even though his passion for Moenghus is clear in the end, intellectually there can be only one outcome. I was very proud of Cnaiur for killing Moenghus. view post


posted 14 Dec 2007, 22:12 by Shell, Peralogue

I also was quite proud Cnaiur killled Moenghus. Depending on AE and if Cnaiur returns, we probably will not know what exactly Cnauir felt. I just caution you when you equate "ardour" (sexual pleasure) with love or positive feelings. As I am doing my thesis on Women, Poverty and HIV across the globe, I can tell you that I have come across a lot of stuff where men describe having erections as young boys when the priest was fondling them, or girls reporting that it "felt good" when their fathers performed oral sex on them. The body responds automatically sometimes...and I hope I haven't offended anyone with particular sensitivities, I cleaned the actual language up quite a bit. view post


posted 15 Dec 2007, 06:12 by ashaman33, Commoner

[quote="Shell":3sd3tfri]I also was quite proud Cnaiur killled Moenghus. Depending on AE and if Cnaiur returns, we probably will not know what exactly Cnauir felt. I just caution you when you equate "ardour" (sexual pleasure) with love or positive feelings. As I am doing my thesis on Women, Poverty and HIV across the globe, I can tell you that I have come across a lot of stuff where men describe having erections as young boys when the priest was fondling them, or girls reporting that it "felt good" when their fathers performed oral sex on them. The body responds automatically sometimes...and I hope I haven't offended anyone with particular sensitivities, I cleaned the actual language up quite a bit.[/quote:3sd3tfri] I understand how the same thing can be interpreted differently. I have a degree in Womens Studies so I am pretty familiar with what you are saying. However, there are really no blanket rules, we can make generalizations but there are exceptions to every rule. From the totality of the circumstances I really think that Cnaiur loves Moenghus. It is undeniable that Cnaiur loved Moenghus when he was a youth. It is undeniable that he later repuiated this love and claimed to hate Moenghus with a passion above all else. The only question is, was his professed hate just a reaction to the fact that Moenghus left and he had to rationalize living with the People and knowing that Moenghus didn't truly love him. I think that Cnaiur's hate is real but to me such hate is only possible because of the depth of his love. Both love and hate are real. What wins out isn't love or hate, but intellect. Regardless of whether Cnaiur loves Moenghus, the fact is that Moenghus does not love Cnaiur and only wants to use Cnaiur. Whether you analyze it from the hate perspective or the love perspective, both of them are pretty good rationalizations for Cnaiur using the chorae on the man who caused him such pain and then tries to begin manipulating him again. view post


posted 15 Dec 2007, 19:12 by Shell, Peralogue

I totally see your point. It doesn't matter if it was hate or love, or both, it was extremely deep and powerful. I agree 15 year-old Cnaiur loved Moenghus, and I think 15-year-old Cnaiur returned the kiss, not 40-year-old Cnaiur. I think the only thing we may disgree on is the motive for killing Moenghus; you think intellect, and I think hate. Either way Moenghus got what he deserved. view post


posted 15 Dec 2007, 19:12 by Shell, Peralogue

ashaman33, I forgot to ask you what you thought Kellhus was lying to Esmi about. I can't decide if he really loves her, or is just using her as a broodmare. Or does he take her away to get back at Akka, whom I thought he truly liked? And for all his lying, is he good or "bad"? I s'pose we are getting away from this thread... view post


posted 21 Dec 2007, 06:12 by ashaman33, Commoner

[quote="Shell":1sczt3pe]ashaman33, I forgot to ask you what you thought Kellhus was lying to Esmi about. I can't decide if he really loves her, or is just using her as a broodmare. Or does he take her away to get back at Akka, whom I thought he truly liked? And for all his lying, is he good or "bad"? I s'pose we are getting away from this thread...[/quote:1sczt3pe] I do not believe that Kellhus loves Esmenet. He does not know what love is. Achamian realizes this and tells Esmi that Kellhus "knows" her like he knows everyone but he doesn't love her like Achamian does. When the synthese possessed Esmi and spoke to Kellhus asking What are the Dunyain? Kellhus threatens to kill Esmi. Later when Esmi speaks to him about that episode, he says to her that he only said "what needed to be heard." In his mind he admits that this is a lie. So it seems that he was willing to sacrifice her. That's on page 254 of my papperback TTT. But Kellhus lies all the time to everyonee about the fact that he is a prince, about his purpose for joining the Holy War. What is interesting to me is that he is changing and no longer sees himself as solely Dunyain. In fact he kills his father because his father still thinks as a typical Dunyain. A typical Dunyain is amoral. Moenghus has committed many horrible things such as the sacrifice of the woman and child in the room with the imprisoned skin spies. These acts will damn his soul. Once Moenghus realizes the truth of damnation then he will rationally come to the same conclusion as the Inchoroi that to avoid damnation he must close off the void by killing almost all the souls of Earwa. Kellhus realizes that the rational path for Moenghus would be to kill Kellhus, usurp the new religion, unite the Fanim and the Inrithi in a false battle against Golgotterath and the Consult on purpose so that the humans will lose. This is revealed on page 375 of TTT paperback. Kellhus hears voices and has visions. He thinks that he hears the voice of the NO God in his head. I don't know what this means for Kellhus's future. For now Kellhus's plans are good. He wants to unite all the world, Fanim, Inrithi, all men to battle the Second Apocalypse. He doesn't mind lying to everyone and manipulating them to accomplish this. The end justifies the means. Will he stay true to this path? Will power corrupt him? Will the No God corrupt him? I guess we will have to RAFO. view post


posted 22 Dec 2007, 01:12 by Harrol, Moderator

I agree Kellhus wants to unite mankind and destroy the consult. In tweenty years I wonder where his probability trances will lead him? view post


posted 02 Jan 2008, 00:01 by Khan, Commoner

Cnaiur is probably my favourite as well. Mainly because he is the only person who can see through Khellus's lying. view post


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