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Akka and Kelhus will be the Greatest Ordeal posted 18 May 2007, 10:05 by kariyas, Commoner

This be my first post and I just finished reading the book. Man I am so pumped up after that ending. What an Evil person Kelhus is. He took everything from Akka and what does he get in return? A Thanks? NO he doesnt even get Esmi back. That Fricking Ungreatful Harlet!! Im sooo mad that she doesnt realise what a mistake shes making. All that said and done. what a read that was. I feel like Akka has been awoken, almost unleashed u might say. Hes so ganster to not even LOOK the emperor when he called his name. he just paused , listened and walked away.. And he denounced him as a prophet!!! This is the Akka I was hoping to see, the dont give a **** Akka. And he also denounced Esmi which was hard to read but was the right thing. I think hes going to ally himself with Cnaiur ur skiotha!!! and bring War to Kelhus! I know the spoiler says that Kelhus is going to war in the north to save man kind but I dont see it. This will ultimately come down to Akka against Kelhus and I dont see any other fit to it. There will be the side stories of the consult, no god and the new war but it comes down to these 2 characters fighting it out. I also believe that Akka isnt as weak as people think he is. He will be par with Kelhus, perhaps not in the new book but eventually with in the series. They will meet again but he will not Kneel!!! Sorry for the bad words etc. Just so pumped after that book, Bakker is da man!!! view post


posted 21 May 2007, 19:05 by Harrol, Moderator

I like your excitement, but I think you over look a few things about Akka. First he will destroy the consult before he wages any other war. Does he hate Kellhus? Yes! Enough to burn the world? In the heat of the momeny yes, with time to think about it no. Remember he still has the dreams and he is still influenced by Seswatha. view post


will this be true of the sequel? posted 06 Jun 2007, 16:06 by slh_2000, Commoner

Tho it makes sense, do we know for fact that seswatha and the dreams will remain now that Akka has renounced his faith? And when the dreams chaged, isn't is possible (in theory) that perhaps the dreams were never accurate to begin with? perhaps Seswatha purposly corrupted the dreams to reach some other conclusion or perhaps to trick the Mandate into guarding the Gnosis? Not to say seswatha was evil, but perhaps just not completely truithful? view post


posted 06 Jun 2007, 17:06 by Harrol, Moderator

I doubt a simple renunciation frees you from the dream. The reason being any Mandate schoolman under torture could simply renounce the Mandate and then spill the beans. No Seswatha does not simply want to guard the Gnosis. If not he would of needed to destoy the Meggangaca(sp) (I do not have my books right now so my spelling is off) and all nonmen quay. They too know the gnosis. view post


Re: will this be true of the sequel? posted 07 Jun 2007, 02:06 by Gravity Gun, Candidate

[quote="slh_2000":1ppyrrkk]Tho it makes sense, do we know for fact that seswatha and the dreams will remain now that Akka has renounced his faith? And when the dreams chaged, isn't is possible (in theory) that perhaps the dreams were never accurate to begin with? perhaps Seswatha purposly corrupted the dreams to reach some other conclusion or perhaps to trick the Mandate into guarding the Gnosis? Not to say seswatha was evil, but perhaps just not completely truithful?[/quote:1ppyrrkk] A most interesting point. We have been shown the dreams, for more than one time, all the way up to the firing of the Heron Spear (I think it's safe to use the word "fire" rather than "throw" :wink: ) -- but never the event itself. Why? The firing of this terrible weapon of light must have been spectacular for a people who have never seen such things before (all other such weapons were used up in the war between the Nonman and Inchoroi). Even more magnificent and certainly memorable would have been the destruction of the No-God as a result of the firing. So why did we never see that? Why, indeed, in the last "showing" of the dream, things seem to take a horribly wrong turn as the Heron Spear was never fired? What really happened? It may be all coincidental. But perhaps not. Is it by chance that this last strange dream for Akka takes place after the encounter between Kelhuss and Seswatha? Remember the spinning knife? We know the Dunyain are master hypnotists: Kelhuss is described as having "scraped away" Serwe's memory of rape. So it seems he did something similar here: it seems all Mandate Schoolmen underwent some very deep hypnosis procedure during initiation, but Kelhuss manages to loosen or even break the hold of this hypnosis in order to learn the Gnosis. Once that hypnosis loosens its grip, is it possible that some deeper, truer memory might surface? The study deepens, father. :wink: view post


posted 07 Jun 2007, 06:06 by Phil, Candidate

I find that idea really interesting, and it makes it an even more painful wait for the next book, since Akka will have some answers about this himself by the time it starts. He better, anyway (I am definitely of the camp that believes this last dream is a result of the hypnosis. Whether Kellhus did this intentionally and it is a lie, I don't know, but [i:25j5wk0g]something[/i:25j5wk0g] happened). That last dream sequence was brilliantly written. I may have a read of it again when I get home from work today :) Damn you, Bakker! Publish faster! view post


too curious... posted 07 Jun 2007, 15:06 by slh_2000, Commoner

I'll be curious to see if the dreams change only for Akka, and if they do, to what end? what of the rest of the mandate? Given the theory of deep hypnosis upon initiation, it stands to reason they will have the same dreams they always had while Akka discovers a new tangent that could be truth or a lie. Kellus promises truth, but is in fact a liar, so...damn! regardless, ths whole saga needs to be reread over and over! view post


posted 08 Jun 2007, 12:06 by Curethan, Didact

The first time that dream is related we actually do reach the point where Anaxophus raises and uses the Heron spear. And Mengeda is where the No-god fell. So... Also, Seswatha's dreams are definately sourcerous, as the mandati use them to find each other with the cants of calling. The fact that they touch Seswatha's mumified heart and then recieve the visions/dreams also belies the possibility that it is simple hypnosis. view post


posted 09 Jun 2007, 02:06 by Gravity Gun, Candidate

Was there an actually description of the spear itself? The firing? And the fall of No-God? I don't seem to remember any of these. And I don't think those dreams are results of sorcery, for three reasons. 1. It's not true that the Mandate shcoolmen use dreams of the Apocalypse to communicate. All sorcerers, Cishaurim and Scarlet Spires and Mandate, communicate with each other while one of them is in a dreaming state. For Mandate schoolmen, this often means the receiver is having a "Seswathian" dream while receiving communication. 2. The act of holding Seswatha's heart while being initiated doesn't mean the dreams are sorcerous. First, this mental fixation on a captivating object procedure sounds a lot like "look at the spinning shiny knife" -- in other words, it sounds very much like hypnosis. Second, based on everything we know, this is simply not how spells are cast. They must be cast where the sorcerer has a line-of-sight to his objective (otherwise they can simply cast war spells behind masses of soldiers without having to expose themselves to Chorae bowmen). Obviously Seswatha is long dead and can't see his followers. The only exception is spell of dream communication, which has to take place between people who personally know each other, and Seswatha couldn't possibly know all the Mandate Schoolmen who have followed him. 3. Again, think about how Kelhuss overcomes the hold Seswatha has over Akka to get Gnosis. He did not cast any spells. It seems unlikely to me that hypnosis can overcome sorcery. Unless it's not sorcery to begin with. view post


posted 09 Jun 2007, 03:06 by Curethan, Didact

No description of the spear, but a great cracking sound is heard as it breaks the carapace. 1. Yer true - but remember how Moenghus sent for Kellhus, sending sorcerous dreams wasn't it? 2. Yeh, not in and of itself - however I got the impression that once you touched the heart you lived partially in to perceptual realities. As far as hypnosis goes, it is merely the act of manipulating someone who has allowed themselves to be put into a lucid and suggestive state. For Kellhus, you could say that what he does is like an uber-hypnosis - but that kind of detracts from what he does. For mere hypnosis to achieve what u suggest, sorcery would definately need to be involved. 3. Kellhus is able to get the Gnosis only because of the Celomomian Prophecy. If he was not Seswatha's harbinger, he never would have got it. The root of why he could get Akka to teach him is in the darkness that comes before... he makes himself appear as the the best hope of preventing the 2nd apocolypse (and he probly is). You might say its a fortuitous correspondance of cause. Personally I think the dreams serve a purpose, to warn - and they are mutable, changed and influenced by the balance of powers from the outside and the conflict within the host. view post


posted 13 Jun 2007, 00:06 by kaboos, Commoner

I'm pretty sure that when or even if Kellhus and Achamian do go at a crazy gnosis dog fight...as much as i love achamian i think kellhus would dominate him. At the end of TfT he figures out how to use he 2nd set of inuteral strings for the gnostic cants so in reality he's far superior to where achamian is as a sorcerer. :cry: view post


posted 13 Jun 2007, 06:06 by Curethan, Didact

I can't see it ever coming to Kellhus vs Akka personally, but don't forget how Akka was taken by the Spires - a concert of Gnostic sorcerers and the element of surprise could theoretically take down Kellhus too. There aint no such thing as invincible when even Mog can get whupped by a doophus with a stick. view post


posted 13 Jun 2007, 22:06 by Harrol, Moderator

Are you saying that I could defeat the No-god with a stick? :shock: view post


posted 14 Jun 2007, 04:06 by Gravity Gun, Candidate

Kelhuss has mastered the ability of teleportation, even to places where he has never been before. So it doesn't really matter how many sorcerers attack him -- if he's overmatched, he'll simply teleport out of trouble. Hell, he can teleport right into the heart of Golgotterath right now and kick Aurang in the gonads. :D view post


posted 14 Jun 2007, 06:06 by Curethan, Didact

Hehe Harrol ;) was referring to Anaxophus actually. Oh yeh - teleportation - that completely outweighs the element of surprise - not. You dont see the bullet that kills you. But seriously, we dont know the limitations of Kellhus' powers, or even if there's a way to counter them. We know that he needs an army and an empire to assault Golgotteroth and prevent the resurection of Mog, and we can fairly assume that he will seek to take the shortest path. Ergo, knowing his own limitations, he ain't that powerful. It would seem that maybe he's not the first to use sorcery to teleport... remember the cishaurim's assasination of the previous leader of the SS. From Eleazareus' recollection it certainly seemed like they teleported into the chamber. Funnily enough they forgot to teleport away... view post


the prohibition on teaching the gnosis and hypnosis posted 15 Jun 2007, 04:06 by shiva, Commoner

The inability to share the gnosis with someone not Seswatha approved, even when subjected to cants of compulsion, tells me the ritual with Ses' heart is no trick of hypnosis. I think that somehow part of Ses' mind is bound to the heart and passed into members of the Mandate. Akka remembered speaking to Kellhus in his hypnotrance but not what he said, i think Kellhus convinced Seswatha-within to let Akka teach him. Shiva view post


Re: the prohibition on teaching the gnosis and hypnosis posted 15 Jun 2007, 05:06 by anor277, Didact

[quote="shiva":130pmey6]The inability to share the gnosis with someone not Seswatha approved, even when subjected to cants of compulsion, tells me the ritual with Ses' heart is no trick of hypnosis. I think that somehow part of Ses' mind is bound to the heart and passed into members of the Mandate. Akka remembered speaking to Kellhus in his hypnotrance but not what he said, i think Kellhus convinced Seswatha-within to let Akka teach him. Shiva[/quote:130pmey6] On the other hand, the fact that Kellhus, with (then!) purely mundane methods at his disposal, could subvert Mandate strictures, points to the fact that a Mandati's inability to betray the Gnosis was somehow due to a conditioning process - conditioning in which Seswatha somehow featured very strongly. We don't know so many things. view post


posted 15 Jun 2007, 07:06 by Curethan, Didact

It's moot really. Kellhus manipulates Akka so that he doesn't report him to the quorum, but in one scene Akka recalls how Seswatha decreed that the Gnosis should be shared in order to arm the world of men when the 2nd apocolypse is imminent. Seeing as Kellhus is the fulfillment of the Celomommian prophecy and therefore the harbinger - there is no compulsion not to give up the Gnosis anymore - one simply has to decide who to teach. The fact that the gnosis can't be extracted through cants or torture is merely a testament to the power of the shared experiences of Seswatha rather than a sorcerous 'block'. view post


posted 15 Jun 2007, 20:06 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

[quote="Curethan":4qlh1jdd]Hehe Harrol ;) was referring to Anaxophus actually. Oh yeh - teleportation - that completely outweighs the element of surprise - not. You dont see the bullet that kills you. It would seem that maybe he's not the first to use sorcery to teleport... remember the cishaurim's assasination of the previous leader of the SS. From Eleazareus' recollection it certainly seemed like they teleported into the chamber. Funnily enough they forgot to teleport away...[/quote:4qlh1jdd] Don't be silly. They made themselves invisible and since the Pshuke is undetectable... view post


posted 16 Jun 2007, 00:06 by Curethan, Didact

I dont recall anyone using sorcery to become invisible either.... view post


posted 16 Jun 2007, 18:06 by Harrol, Moderator

No but they could disguise themselves. Remeber how Kellhus set up that skin spy. Akka cast a glamour on a soldier so that he looked like Akka. I believe the Cishuarim could just do the same. view post


Re: Akka and Kelhus will be the Greatest Ordeal posted 16 Jun 2007, 21:06 by Callan S., Auditor

[quote="kariyas":2nhetwz8]This be my first post and I just finished reading the book. Man I am so pumped up after that ending. What an Evil person Kelhus is. He took everything from Akka and what does he get in return? A Thanks? NO he doesnt even get Esmi back. That Fricking Ungreatful Harlet!! Im sooo mad that she doesnt realise what a mistake shes making. All that said and done. what a read that was. I feel like Akka has been awoken, almost unleashed u might say. Hes so ganster to not even LOOK the emperor when he called his name. he just paused , listened and walked away.. And he denounced him as a prophet!!! This is the Akka I was hoping to see, the dont give a **** Akka. And he also denounced Esmi which was hard to read but was the right thing.[/quote:2nhetwz8] He ingored an emporer, he denounced a prophet...a god, just about. But he didn't denounce her...he stammered, he lied to himself. That's the sort of love that's being described here - emporers and gods are meaningless in it's wake. And she isn't making a mistake - she takes her position as to be the best thing for everyone. And by and large she's right. But she also knows it's a lie to herself - remember the consult possessed her and found she didn't really love Kelhus. Kelhus recognised that too. She loves a better world, a better hope for everything. She wants that to come before all else, its the RIGHT thing. And it's a lie. She loves Akka more than all of that. She just hasn't had the choice layed before her yet - him or the world. She hasn't had to face having to give up one for the other. view post


posted 25 Jun 2007, 00:06 by kariyas, Commoner

[quote="kaboos"]I'm pretty sure that when or even if Kellhus and Achamian do go at a crazy gnosis dog fight...as much as i love achamian i think kellhus would dominate him. At the end of TfT he figures out how to use he 2nd set of inuteral strings for the gnostic cants so in reality he's far superior to where achamian is as a sorcerer. :cry:[/quote] u underestimate akkas power ;) He is the teacher after all. Is it just me who hates Kelhus in this forum? lol Akkas the underdog, hes been beaten on, his womans been taken from him, his love of the gnosis ROBBED by minipulation. Passion will grow with in Akka, and he will redeem himself. view post


posted 25 Jun 2007, 00:06 by kariyas, Commoner

[quote="Curethan"]I can't see it ever coming to Kellhus vs Akka personally, but don't forget how Akka was taken by the Spires - a concert of Gnostic sorcerers and the element of surprise could theoretically take down Kellhus too. There aint no such thing as invincible when even Mog can get whupped by a doophus with a stick.[/quote] U cant see it coming down to Akka and Kelhus?? we must have both read different books then :wink: I dont see any other way, its inevetable that Akka confronts Kelhus and opens a can of whoop ass on him... Akka has lost everything in the world, As a rogue Sorcerer he MUST avenge this... He lost everything to Kelhus which makes the confrontation inevetable. view post


posted 25 Jun 2007, 04:06 by kaboos, Commoner

it's not that i doubt akka's power to wield the gnosis...but now kelhus knows how to use the 3 string cants. akka may be powerful but he wouldn't be able to stand up to that for very long unless he pulled out major battle cants on just one person (which would be a move of desperation). thats just how i see it. :? view post


posted 27 Jun 2007, 02:06 by shiva, Commoner

In 20 years time Kellhus will had not only learned every Gnostic cant known to the Mandate, but have had the time to add a 2nd inutteral to the lot of them. Akka's my favorite character but he would have NO chance and he is smart enough to know this. Not only that but he'd not chance the world over his broken heart, if he was going to it would have happened at the end of TTT. view post


posted 27 Jun 2007, 02:06 by anor277, Didact

[quote="shiva":36k4lnd7]In 20 years time Kellhus will had not only learned every Gnostic cant known to the Mandate, but have had the time to add a 2nd inutteral to the lot of them. Akka's my favorite character but he would have NO chance and he is smart enough to know this. Not only that but he'd not chance the world over his broken heart, if he was going to it would have happened at the end of TTT.[/quote:36k4lnd7] This makes good sense; Achamian vs Kellhus sometime in the distant future is a non-starter. Besides, it would not only be Achamian vs Kellhus, it would be Achamian vs Kellhus + the rest of the Mandate. Achamian will probably rely (and continue to rely) on Kellhus' forbearance in the next 20 years; as a renegade sorceror he is damned twice over by his school and his prophet. In other words, unless Kellhus orders high level protection for Achamian, he (A) is likely to be assassinated. view post


posted 27 Jun 2007, 08:06 by Curethan, Didact

Interesting that Akka has written the compendium of the 1st holy war during this 20year break. That would suggest that he managed to find refuge in some place - probably far from the 3 seas - Atraithu, perhaps? view post


posted 27 Jun 2007, 20:06 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

It is unlikely that Arthritau exists any longer. view post


posted 27 Jun 2007, 22:06 by kaboos, Commoner

no it would still exist...just not many people are aware of it's existence... but it could be a possibility that akka would be there...unlikely...but possible. :) view post


posted 28 Jun 2007, 11:06 by coobek, Candidate

Achamian is now (at least at the end of the series) full of passion. Maybe he will join knowledge of Gnosis with Psukhe and that will give hard time to Kelhus since, as we know, Dunyan are crap at Psukhe. view post


posted 28 Jun 2007, 20:06 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

[quote="kaboos":1g3b4cf4]no it would still exist...just not many people are aware of it's existence... but it could be a possibility that akka would be there...unlikely...but possible. :)[/quote:1g3b4cf4] I figured it didn't exist because the Consult passed through it to find out about the Dunyain after PON; I doubt they left survivors, especially since the Sranc were with them. Also, Akka full of passion after TTT? Is there a different version of this book I don't know about? view post


posted 28 Jun 2007, 20:06 by kaboos, Commoner

good point...i didn't think about that view post


on Atrithau and Akka's history of the 1st holy war posted 29 Jun 2007, 03:06 by shiva, Commoner

As the consult and the sranc have yet to destroy Atrithau after 2000 years I'm inclined to believe that they cannot. Not being sure on what "anarcane ground" ground is, other than it renders sorcery inoperative, i'm not 100% but the fact it's still there so far from any other human lands makes me think this is so. Hells they may have just wanted to save a few playthings for post war entertainment. We have no idea when Akka writes his history other than it's after the first holy war. It could be 15 mins after he leaves Smimeh (i doubt it) or it could be 15 years after the culmination of the AE series, we don't know yet. He does mention not discussing some things so as to avoid a death sentence, so I don't think he's in hideing at the time of writing but somehow back in Kellhus' entourage. view post


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