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Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 30 Jan 2009, 12:01 by Curethan, Didact

So Kellhus has probably been "outside" and wears a couple of demon's heads on his utility belt (next to the shark repellent). Does this suggest some kind of messing with the Daimos to anyone else? If he has been outside, its no wonder that the gods want to kill him. He probly stole Odin's wife too, hehe. Sorweel got "blessed" by Yatwer, now hears a voice and can now seemingly BS Kellhus. Kelmomas hears a voice and acts independantly to worsen the situation with the cults. Cnaiur used to hear a voice that drove him to murder, I theorize that it was the war god/demon in his case. It strikes me that Akka's explanation of madness/the infleunce of the outside to Cnaiur was accurate and that to be god-touched is to succumb to madness. I think the whiteluck will be one crazy mofo, make Cnaiur look like Nigel Plankpants. How much do you think Kellhus knows about what he's up against? I got the feeling while reading JE that things were really stacking up against him but his lack of POV doesn't give much idea of what he's really been up too. 20 years is a long time for someone like Kellhus. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 30 Jan 2009, 12:01 by Chirios, Candidate

We are of course; ignoring the possibility that Psatma Nannaferi is completely insane. Just wanted to throw that out there. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 30 Jan 2009, 14:01 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="Chirios":2imzyxop]We are of course; ignoring the possibility that Psatma Nannaferi is completely insane. Just wanted to throw that out there.[/quote:2imzyxop] True, but there is too much the corroborates the "intervention" of the Outside. She isn't a Sorceror (handles Chorae) yet the whole eyes going red thing and seeing through the Sorcery of the Witch was pretty impressive and the "baptism" of the White-Luck Warrior as well as what was going on with Sorweel all seem to speak to someone's direct intervention (Yatwer or in Yatwer's name anyway). I have a feeling POV's from Kellhus will be lacking or non-existant in The Great Ordeal, he is going to be, like the Inchoroi and some other major figures in the previous trilogy, be more in the background while others shoulder the burden of being the POV characters. Kellhus is just "too big" for it now. I also found it interesting that the Whiteluck Warrior has Scylvendi blood in his family tree. It should be interesting to see what happens. I also wonder if Kelhus actually went "Outside" or if those demon heads are ones he killed here in Earwa. Did he only kill one or two at the end of TTT? I can't recall. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 30 Jan 2009, 23:01 by Curethan, Didact

[quote="Chirios":3fs7lvxl]We are of course; ignoring the possibility that Psatma Nannaferi is completely insane. Just wanted to throw that out there.[/quote:3fs7lvxl] One of my points being that you being insane is a requirement/result of being moved by the gods as opposed to the DtcB. That'd be why Kellhus doesn't read Sorweel properly after he is 'blessed'. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 31 Jan 2009, 04:01 by anor277, Didact

It was my impression that the demon heads Kellhus sports on his belt were those of skin spies. Certainly the skin spies are absolutely terrifying (Kellhus no doubt animates them) but they are not demonic. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 31 Jan 2009, 06:01 by Curethan, Didact

[quote="anor277":26d7dc73]It was my impression that the demon heads Kellhus sports on his belt were those of skin spies. Certainly the skin spies are absolutely terrifying (Kellhus no doubt animates them) but they are not demonic.[/quote:26d7dc73] No, they are specificaly referred to as 'Ciphrang heads'. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 02 Feb 2009, 22:02 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

Having Demon heads on his belt doesn't mean Kelhus has been Outside. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 03 Feb 2009, 04:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="Cynical Cat":kkzviukh]Having Demon heads on his belt doesn't mean Kelhus has been Outside.[/quote:kkzviukh] Which was my point. I should go back and look at the end of TTT to see if we saw what happened to a Demon after it was killed in Earwa. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 03 Feb 2009, 22:02 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Entropic_existence":2t2aixbx][quote="Cynical Cat":2t2aixbx]Having Demon heads on his belt doesn't mean Kelhus has been Outside.[/quote:2t2aixbx] Which was my point. I should go back and look at the end of TTT to see if we saw what happened to a Demon after it was killed in Earwa.[/quote:2t2aixbx] As I recall, at the end of [i:2t2aixbx]TTT[/i:2t2aixbx] a demon that had been turned off by a chorae (for instance by the Cishaurim) simply ceased to exist. Of course, Achamian only managed to drive off the demons that attacked him in Iotiath and Shimeh. I think that somewhere in the present novel, it is mentioned that the [i:2t2aixbx]physical body[/i:2t2aixbx] of a demon (whatever this is) when struck by a chorae would be destroyed but I don't have the page number. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 04 Feb 2009, 18:02 by Harrol, Moderator

I believe it sploded into salt. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 05 Feb 2009, 07:02 by Callan S., Auditor

[quote="Curethan":n332wnce][quote="anor277":n332wnce]It was my impression that the demon heads Kellhus sports on his belt were those of skin spies. Certainly the skin spies are absolutely terrifying (Kellhus no doubt animates them) but they are not demonic.[/quote:n332wnce] No, they are specificaly referred to as 'Ciphrang heads'.[/quote:n332wnce] Who refers to them as such? Sometimes Scott switches between describing the world as author and describing the world as seen by a character, without much differentiation in between. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 05 Feb 2009, 07:02 by lfex, Peralogue

[quote="Callan S.":1t9cbnc2][quote="Curethan":1t9cbnc2][quote="anor277":1t9cbnc2]It was my impression that the demon heads Kellhus sports on his belt were those of skin spies. Certainly the skin spies are absolutely terrifying (Kellhus no doubt animates them) but they are not demonic.[/quote:1t9cbnc2] No, they are specificaly referred to as 'Ciphrang heads'.[/quote:1t9cbnc2] Who refers to them as such? Sometimes Scott switches between describing the world as author and describing the world as seen by a character, without much differentiation in between.[/quote:1t9cbnc2] I don't have book at hand, but IIRC it was definitely a character. I read it as Ciphrang being just generic term for monster. Sorweel does call Kellhus himself Ciphrang after all. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 05 Feb 2009, 19:02 by anor277, Didact

I was trying to look for the Ciphrang reference as well. As you say, if the reference was made by say Sorweel, an ignorant shit herder who'd seen neither demon nor skin spy, then we can't put too much credence in the reference. regarding the effect that chorae has on actual demons, i.e. [i:g12192vf]de jure[/i:g12192vf] Ciphrang, see p 413 [i:g12192vf]The Judging Eye[/i:g12192vf] Orbit TPB 2009, where Achamian says that chorae destroys the [i:g12192vf]corporeal form[/i:g12192vf] of the Ciphrang, whatever this means. Of course, at least Achamian is a bit of an authority on Ciphrang and matters arcane. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 06 Feb 2009, 22:02 by Curethan, Didact

The example I specifically recalled was from Sorweels perspective. But it wasn't him describing it, it was a narrative assertion. Now, for myself, I don't go assuming the author is lying to me when ready fiction - it kind of defeats the whole point, yeh? Save that kind of critical thinking for reading non-fiction, where lies and misinterpretation are more common. If Scott calls them ciphrang heads, thats what they are. Not carved turnips because you don't believe in demons. Sheesh. Oh yeh, and when kKellhus returns and Esme sees him they are called demon heads too. Why you think its unlikely defeats me. Kellhus can teleport, he is in possesion of the daimos, his principal opposition to his goal of defeating the consult now comes from the outside, he needs to know exactly what he faces there and he could easily defeat a ciphrang if Akka was able to do so. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 06 Feb 2009, 23:02 by anor277, Didact

@Curethan; settle down dude. If you can't disagree without rancour then perhaps we should not discuss this; it's a minor point. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 07 Feb 2009, 09:02 by Curethan, Didact

Eh sorry, no rancour - I just bemused :) Didn't mean to sound so strident there. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 10 Feb 2009, 20:02 by Will, Peralogue

Anybody else think the Whiteluck could be Cnaiur reborn? He killed the last dunyain, after all! view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 13 Feb 2009, 00:02 by Chirios, Candidate

[quote="Will":13yx90e5]Anybody else think the Whiteluck could be Cnaiur reborn? He killed the last dunyain, after all![/quote:13yx90e5] Accidentally Anybody else think it would be really, really, really funny if Khellus ended up killing Yatwer? view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 22 Feb 2009, 19:02 by Mithfânion, Didact

I read this and thought it was apparent that Sorweel is the White Luck Warrior. There has to be a reason for why is portrayed as an important character, as a POV. Moreso, he is with the Great Ordeal and thus actually in the position of becoming the White Luck Warrior in book 2 and confronting the Anasurimbor. Also, he is still doubtful of Kellhus even when others have long since fallen under his sway. Finally, he has been blessed by Yatwer herself, which seems to at least mean Kellhus canot read him ( though of course we do not know this, Kellhus might as well have pretended he could not see his true feelings, as Sorweel speculated himself). I think for story purposes though we may assume that Yatwer's blessing did really disguise his true emotion from Kellhus. However that is but a small step towards actual opposition to Kellhus, or even the unthinkabkle, a defeat of him. It would give him an edge, certainly. Will be interesting to see that play out in book 2. The only thing that makes me unsure it is Sorweel is what went before, the vague sections about a White Luck Warrior being born somewhere, the strange ritual with Psatma etc. I didn't get what that was all about, and Sorweel just seems like a far more plausible set-up as the White Luck. We already know him now, he has been establised as a character, and at the end we find out he is Yatwer's. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 23 Feb 2009, 04:02 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Mithfânion":3l0bx17o]...................... Will be interesting to see that play out in book 2. The only thing that makes me unsure it is Sorweel is what went before, the vague sections about a White Luck Warrior being born somewhere, the strange ritual with Psatma etc. I didn't get what that was all about, and Sorweel just seems like a far more plausible set-up as the White Luck. We already know him now, he has been establised as a character, and at the end we find out he is Yatwer's.[/quote:3l0bx17o] Sorweel has certainly been blessed by Yatwer, however, he seems so far to be a free agent, free enough to decide on whether the Ordeal succeeds or fails (and as Sakarpus is on the supply line, Sorweel's influence may be decisive). As far as the White Luck warrior is concerned it seems that this individual will plague Esmenet and not Kellhus, i.e. the White Luck warrior is an insurgent of the Three-Seas. I couldn't fathom the granny-banging passage with Psatma either. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 24 Feb 2009, 22:02 by Mithfânion, Didact

[quote:wivz8k19]As far as the White Luck warrior is concerned it seems that this individual will plague Esmenet and not Kellhus, i.e. the White Luck warrior is an insurgent of the Three-Seas[/quote:wivz8k19] I don't think this has been clearly indicated, if at all. The Yatwer cult is something Esmenet will have to deal with yes, but the White Luck Warrior himself might well be an opponent for Kellhus. The White Luck Warrior may be a direct threat to Esmenet as well, but Sorweel seems to be a really good choice for the WLW and he is in Kellhus' vicinity. If it's not Sorweel, basiclaly no one has any good guess at all as to who it might be, and it would be strange for such a major character to suddenly be introduced in book 2 IMO. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 25 Feb 2009, 10:02 by Curethan, Didact

Hmm, that's true about Sorweel - but - I felt the Psatma's mysterious Whiteluck seemed the likely embodiment of this character. I think that he wil be like Kelhus in that he will be a plot device more than a main character. Sorweel was, to me, another extension of the forces of Yatwer moving in a large "world-wide" movement against Kellhus. As in chess, Sorweel is a knight - the whiteluck warrior is her queen - psatma a bishop - Kelmomas a rook. Kind of an array of tools all working at her grand design. You can't challenge Kellhus on only one front and hope to win. I got the impression that the whiteluck was the motive force of the gods and the Whiteluck Warrior was merely the prime manifestation. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 26 Feb 2009, 10:02 by Mithfânion, Didact

Re-reading it, I think I now agree Sorweel is probably yet another manifestation of Yatwer's influence, possibly a pawn, instead of the actual White Luck Warrior, who is probably the person Psatma does the ritual with. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 02 Mar 2009, 06:03 by Athjeari, Peralogue

I don't think that Curethan has crossed a line; he has simply made his point. I happen to agree with him. Kellhus is certainly capable of crossing into the Outside, and the book mentions that the heads tied to his belt are in fact demons, aka Ciphrang. Sorweel calls Kellhus a Ciphrang....a demon....or vice versa, a demon.....Ciphrang. Why is it so unbelievable to some that Kellhus has two demon heads? Where would his body go when he teleports if not the outside? We know from TTT that Ciphrang reside within the Outside. As for the White Luck.... maybe I read this part wrong but isn't Psatma the White-Luck? During the "baptism" doesn't she regenerate and become young and beautiful once again? I thought her old age and wrinkles were passed on to the man she was riding and Psatma took the "White-Luck" into her body? Was I drunk or something when reading this, if this is totally foreign to you all let me know and I'll reread the part. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 02 Mar 2009, 07:03 by Curethan, Didact

[quote="Athjeari":3rgy416w]I don't think that Curethan has crossed a line; he has simply made his point. I happen to agree with him. Kellhus is certainly capable of crossing into the Outside, and the book mentions that the heads tied to his belt are in fact demons, aka Ciphrang. Sorweel calls Kellhus a Ciphrang....a demon....or vice versa, a demon.....Ciphrang. Why is it so unbelievable to some that Kellhus has two demon heads? Where would his body go when he teleports if not the outside? We know from TTT that Ciphrang reside within the Outside. As for the White Luck.... maybe I read this part wrong but isn't Psatma the White-Luck? During the "baptism" doesn't she regenerate and become young and beautiful once again? I thought her old age and wrinkles were passed on to the man she was riding and Psatma took the "White-Luck" into her body? Was I drunk or something when reading this, if this is totally foreign to you all let me know and I'll reread the part.[/quote:3rgy416w] Thanks, I didn't mean to offend. Re:: Pstama, that bit was very confusing. Certainly there was some transference or manifestation of power there. Anybody thinks they have a clear handle on what exactly occured there I'd like to hear it. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 03 Mar 2009, 19:03 by Mithfânion, Didact

The idea is that the man she has sex with with and to whom she diverts her experience, which ages him and makes him stronger, is The White Luck Warrior. You see him age, get stronger, this must the man of Scylvendi heritage and young father who we learn about. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 04 Mar 2009, 11:03 by Curethan, Didact

Okay, I kinda got that, but she also got renewed. Youth and vigour etc. I get that yatwer is "the giver" but the signifigance of selfless or self detrimental giving seemed to be the focus of her aspect. I guess literally I understood the scene but the meaning escaped me. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 31 Mar 2009, 06:03 by Truth Shines, Candidate

I was also under the impression that those heads were of skinspies. But if they are Ciphrang, so be it. After all Kellhus has fought a long Unification War. Surely somewhere along the line one of his enemies in the Three Seas knows Daimos and called up a Ciphrang against him. As for the White Luck Warrior, I doubt it's Sorweel, since Yatwer and her followers seem like a bunch of rabble rousers. Back at home they would have plenty of material to work with (slaves, poor farmers, the unemployed -- the "great unwashed" so to speak :) ). Sorweel, in the company of the Great Ordeal, is surrounded by a warrior elite animated by religious fanaticism focused on Kellhus the Aspect Emperor. What can he do? Besides, Kellhus has already designated Esmi as his ace in the hole against the WLW, so he certainly thinks this mythical warrior will show up back home. In any event, I'm fairly confident the WLW will go nowhere pretty fast. Unlike the Consult or Kellhus, this is a thing made up purely of spite. A petty, ugly, disgusting, 12-copper-talent-at-best thing. Both its good and evil are too small and paltry. I don't believe Bakker would let something so low to triumph against something so grand. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 09 Apr 2009, 08:04 by kidten, Candidate

Didn't Kellhus tell Esmenet not challenge the Yatwer cult? I think he knows exactly what he is doing. He knows of the White-Luck Warrior and knows of his/her importance for the future. I think that is why Sorweel was given the slave that follows Yatwer. Nothing is coincidence for the Dunyain. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 09 Apr 2009, 08:04 by kidten, Candidate

...and I'm pretty sure the demon heads are skin spies. It's a matter of semantics. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 10 Apr 2009, 05:04 by Triskele, Candidate

Though nothing would surprise me too much, I think Sorweel is the WLW. I think we were given a major hint when after he successfully lies to Kellhus, and then rages on his slave asking him he did to him. Then he learns that the guy used a crazy blood-shot eyes ritual to bless him. Another hint though is that I think Maithanet says to Esmi "The White-Luck will break against you." This could be a clue that it is going to be a problem in Momemn and not so much on the road with the Great Ordeal. I just don't see why Sorweel would get so much play if he didn't have a major role to play. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 10 Apr 2009, 19:04 by Athjeari, Peralogue

Sorweel better play a larger part within the series at some point. I honestly did not like reading his sections very much; he whined, and moped way too much for my taste, not to mention that he just isn't very interesting at all. Sorweel is by far one of the most indistinct characters that has ever gotten face time in Bakker. I hope to God that he becomes more of a factor, but I do not think that he is the White Luck Warrior. If for some terrible reason Sorweel is the WLW, he better start putting things in motion because I don't want to read more of the same type of behavior from him in the follow-up books. Too much happened with the Old Crone down south for me to believe that Sorweel is the WLW I think the WLW is going to be a force to be reckoned within the empire. I feel what happened with Sorweel was used to show that the mother God has influence over humans and perceptions. How can Kellhus tackle power that is not of this world? I don't know if he can, I think Sorweel was used as a window for us to see the trouble that is brewing for Kellhus. view post


Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 27 Apr 2009, 07:04 by jub, Peralogue

All that moping could just be a gradual shift to enlightenment; I actually found his chapters quite interesting, it was the only real discription that we get of kellhus and his actions which makes me think he will be the person to confront Kellhus. view post


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