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Celmomian Prophesy, Seswatha Dreams, and the "Present" posted 29 Apr 2009, 15:04 by BobbyR, Commoner

I'm near the end of a second reading of the Judging Eye, and as usually the case, new things stand out to me. With this in particular: Akka is dreaming about mundane details of Seswatha's life, and the focus on the book has been those dreams which offer clues to Ishual. Eventually the "coincidence" (or is it a "Correspondence of Cause"?...) arises where he dreams a lot of the fall of Sauglish, which he ultimately learns is the location of the golden scroll-case (which presumably has a map to Ishual). Sauglish happens to be the phony objective he gave to the Skin Eaters, long before he decided he even wanted to go there. I know there has been some discussion of whether the other Mandate Schoolmen are also dreaming the mundane details of Seswatha's life, BUT Sorweel's tutor mentions near the end of the book that he HAS been dreaming of the fall of Sauglish a lot lately. That can't be a coincidence! The dreams clue that Seswatha might be the only one to know of Ishual, and given he's the one that hears the Celmomian Prophesy, he must have realized that Ishual is the only place from which an Anasurimbor could possibly return. Also there is heavy insinuation that Nau-Cayutas is in truth Seswatha's son, but I don't remember the relation between Celmomas/Nau-Cayutas and the Anasurimbor (I forget the name) that succeeded Celmomas and died at Ishual. In several ways, therefore, Seswatha is very close to the Anasurimbor family and long vested in "watching" (from the Outside?) the succession of Anasurimbors as Dunyain at Ishual. Are the Dreams his way of informing the Mandate/Akka? If so, what would be the message and motive? Also, if this were true, why start now, and not long before the First Holy War? I think the timing of the Great Ordeal's (and Kellhus) location on the map, and Akka's eventual arrival at Ishual is going to be very important. view post

Re: Celmomian Prophesy, Seswatha Dreams, and the "Present" posted 30 Apr 2009, 14:04 by nonman_erratic, Commoner

The Anasurimbor "founder" of the line that was continued in Ishual was Anasurimbor Ganrelka II - He was rescued from battle by knights of Tryse and taken to the refuge of Ishual with his family, which included his bastard son. Ganrelka II was a son of Celmomas II, best and most hated friend of Seswatha. So, the bastard Anasurimbor would have been grandson to Celmomas, and would technically have NO blood relation to Anasurimbor Nau-Cayuti, if Cayu was in fact Seswatha's son. view post

Re: Celmomian Prophesy, Seswatha Dreams, and the "Present" posted 30 Apr 2009, 19:04 by BobbyR, Commoner

OK, thanks for the family tree...I just don't have the books to refer to while I distract myself writing on the Three Seas Forum while I should be working! :wink: Either way, I still think Seswatha is somehow up to something new, with the new dreams. Seswatha wants Akka to find Ishual. Kellhus seems to want Akka to find Ishual. When Kellhus hyponotized Akka in TTT, he claimed he wanted to talk directly to Seswatha's soul (or something to that effect), to release Seswatha's barrier that prevents Akka from teaching the Gnosis. When I first read this, before the Judging Eye came out, I just figured that this was a Dunyain white lie, and Kellhus just broke the barrier with hypnosis, like you try to get someone to quit smoking through hypnosis. Now, I am wondering if Kellhus really did interact with Seswatha's soul after all! All these "coincidental" links between Seswatha and Ishual seem to be too numerous and compelling to ignore. view post

Re: Celmomian Prophesy, Seswatha Dreams, and the "Present" posted 01 May 2009, 03:05 by nonman_erratic, Commoner

Are you implying that the trickle of information Akka is getting from Seswatha's mundane life dreams are a result of Kellhus manipulating Seswatha's homunculus within Akka? I hadn't looked at it as deliberate as that... I felt it was more likely that Akka's current dream patterns were a result of a more passively inherent property of Seswatha's homunculus within the Mandati - That he seems to respond to their needs... Previous Mandati did not dream of Ishual because they had no need to know about Ishual. Or they did not know they needed to know about Ishual. view post

Re: Celmomian Prophesy, Seswatha Dreams, and the "Present" posted 04 May 2009, 15:05 by BobbyR, Commoner

That's not what I was implying....though that is an interesting idea...! My thought was that Seswatha's homunculus(?) was MADE AWARE of Kellhus, because of the hypnotism. And he either liked or disliked what he saw. This changed the rules of the benjuka plate, if you will, and he's trying to tell Akka/Mandate something. In Akka's case, he might be actively helping Akka find Ishual. Though we don't know why! view post

Re: Celmomian Prophesy, Seswatha Dreams, and the "Present" posted 11 Feb 2010, 13:02 by Nerdanel, Peralogue

My theory is that the dreams about Seswatha's mundane life are FAKE and sent through sorcery from the present in order to send Achamian to Ishuäl without making him suspicious. I think the dreams were sent by Mekeritrig (a.k.a. Cleric) who remembered enough of the time of Seswatha to create an illusion of history good enough to fool Achamian and who had been in his long life at the location of Achamian's tower. Perhaps he even killed its original inhabitants. Remember that Cleric was the one to introduce the Sohonc Coffers to the Skin Eaters. That particular "idle conversation" turned out to be crucial for getting the Skin Eaters go on such a dangerous quest. As it was, half of them declined even despite the rumored treasure. As for Mimara, she was sent by Kelmomas at the behest of his secret voice. I think Cleric isn't the voice, but working together with it. I think the voice is the No-God's and Cleric serves him. I think the No-God, being the more powerful demon god, intervened at the end to free Cleric from Hell. And yes, I think Cleric did stop during the fighting when he was "lost" in the tunnels to send a dream to the unconscious Achamian. Plausible deniability! Achamian had already seen him crouching over him when he had one of his Ishuäl dreams. If that had happened again, Achamian could start to suspect that Cleric was doing something more than just looking at him and hoping to see him suffer from nightmares. view post

Re: Celmomian Prophesy, Seswatha Dreams, and the "Present" posted 26 Feb 2010, 01:02 by Callan S., Auditor

I think as Akka starts to think he's Seswatha, so he becomes that. Much in the way Bakker likes to describe so how you act is eventually how you become. As he becomes more Seswatha, more memories are compatable with him and so can be remembered. But that hypnotism bit...Kellhus could have left all sorts of viruses and malware, so to speak, during that 'unknown permissions' bit. So it could all be simply following the steps of a programmed sleeper agent - though the throneroom scene just doesn't seem efficient somehow, with Akka denouncing him as emporer. So Akka still seems somewhat of a rogue variable rather than a fully controlled variable. view post


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