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A few questions . . . posted 15 Jan 2005, 21:01 by White Lord, Subdidact

First of all I’d like to congratulate you, Mr. Bakker, on a great fantasy series, published at a time when I was despairing of finding anything worthy of being read anymore. I just finished consuming TDtCB and TWP in the space of two days and I have to say I’m very impressed with the world you’ve created (very realistic and even ruthless at times, which is a welcome change) and the way the story and the characters have progressed so far. Since finishing to read the books I’m finding myself full of questions so I hope I’m not being too demanding with the (many) ones that follow, and I really hope you will be able to answer at least a few . . . Here goes: 1. I’m interested in the demographics of the Ancient North. Just how do they compare with those of the Three Seas, both now and in the period of its greatest glory (at the time of Cenei?), and what were the borders (and sizes) of the ancient Norsirai nations? For ex. was Agongorea a part of Kuniüri or a preexisting kingdom before it was taken by the Consult? 2. Many times you mention that the Ancient North was old, powerful and very civilized, at a time when the Three Seas, and possibly the Satyothi peoples too, were young and still unsophisticated. I wonder just how that is possible, if we reckon that the Four Nations invaded Eärwa at the same time and probably settled their respective corners of it at the same time as well. The colossal monuments of Shigek, and some other mentions of antiquity in the Three Seas would seem to contradict that, and although the Norsirai may have had the advantage of the Nonman Tutelage, two thousand years constitute a long time, and I think the Ketyai could easily have caught up with them easily. 3. In TWP Achamian speaks of the killing of the No-God and in this context tells Kellhus of the Holy War Celmomas had called to battle the Consult. He says Celmomas “summoned” all the lords of Eärwa, and I read that to be the actual summons of a liege lord to his vassals. So I’d like to know if I’m reading too much into this sentence or if the Anasûrimbor really were in a position to order other kings of the ancient world. (An alternative question: just how powerful and important were the Anasûrimbor, and how old was their line, at the time of the Apocalypse?) 4. Concerning the Cunuroi. In TDtCB, Mekeritrig tells Kellhus that when their heart had been cut out they cradled theirs, being companions to the ‘great’ Norsirai kings. All this was in the context of the degradation of the Cunuroi (their curse) so it made me think . . . After all why would a species be given near-eternal life only to be crippled in a different way than mortality, as the Cunuroi seem to be? I got the impression that this was the consequence of the death of one of their kings or this and the result of something the Inchoroi did to them. Is there any truth to this or were they always cursed to only five human lifetimes’ memories? 5. Checking out the maps I happened to notice a city or citadel, in the Osthwai Mountains between Thunyerus and Galeoth, that has a very Cunuroi-sounding name: Col-Aujas. Is this in fact a Nonman city-state and what may its relations be with the Norsirai of the Three Seas, if any? This is especially interesting since I thought that all remaining Cunuroi were in Injor-Niyas and that the presence of the Nonmen so close to the Three Seas could possibly have meant another source of the Gnosis for the local Schools. 6. The Celmomian Prophecy. When Celmomas describes seeing his son taking the sun as his charger and stirring his people to wonder and fury, is he in fact seeing his own dead son, or is it maybe Kellhus (or the son of Kellhus?), and their actions in the books’ present? In other words, is what Kellhus thinks: that just as what comes before determines what comes after, it could also be that what comes after influences what comes before, in any way possible? Is this prophecy a demonstration of this posit? Here are the questions. I thought it better to lump them all in one post than to bother you with many staggered ones, and I’m thanking you in advance for any answer! :) view post


posted 16 Jan 2005, 22:01 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Two days! I'm glad you enjoyed the books, White Lord. I can tell by your questions that you're a classic 'world junkie' - a man after my own heart! 1) In terms of population, I see the two as being comparable, though the Three Seas necessarily has some cultural (such as a deeper history) and technological advantages (such as iron). The primary difference between the civilizations (with the exception that one is dead) lay in the maritime and commercial dimensions of the Three Seas. 2) Think ancient Egypt or Sumer compared to Europe in the 'Dark Ages,' where you literally have 4 000 years difference. There's just so many factors that determine the 'flourishing' of one civilization as opposed to another. The Norsirai, likely because of the Nonman Tutelage, simply enjoyed their 'renaissance' first. 3) He called them for what was called the 'Ordeal,' but out of common interest, not out of authority. 4) You're starting to mow some TTT grass with this one, I'm afraid! Sorry, WL... :wink: 5) Cil-Aujas is a dead Nonman city that the Men of the Three Seas know about. Something I have some devlish plans for. 6) If the prophecy is a [i:3ykrkzxq]real[/i:3ykrkzxq] prophecy, this would have to be what it means, wouldn't it? view post


posted 17 Jan 2005, 19:01 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1n5v63kv]Two days! I'm glad you enjoyed the books, White Lord. I can tell by your questions that you're a classic 'world junkie' - a man after my own heart![/quote:1n5v63kv] Yes, I guess I [i:1n5v63kv]am[/i:1n5v63kv] a world junkie and I have to say once again that I'm really impressed with the depth of this one, which is one of the reasons why I have so many questions... I really hope you'll publish a guide to Eärwa someday; it would make for some interesting complementary reading to the series. BTW, just how many books will there be in each of the follow-up series, 2 or 3? I've been seeing here that it's to be 2... As far as I'm concerned you can write six more books easy, there's no reason to disdain long series if the writing's good and the story interesting, and I have no reason to believe otherwise. :) [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1n5v63kv]1) In terms of population, I see the two as being comparable, though the Three Seas necessarily has some cultural (such as a deeper history) and technological advantages (such as iron). The primary difference between the civilizations (with the exception that one is dead) lay in the maritime and commercial dimensions of the Three Seas.[/quote:1n5v63kv] The issue of iron makes me wonder about the Nonman nimil. Just what exactly [i:1n5v63kv]is[/i:1n5v63kv] nimil, and why didn't the Nonmen share it with their Norsirai allies? The scene between Mekeritrig and Kellhus comes to mind, and the way nimil and steel seem to be more or less equal... Also, something I forgot in my first post..., just how big is Eärwa? I always imagine Eärwa to be the size of Europe in relation to Eänna being the size of Asia, both of them making up something close to the Eurasian landmass size-wise. Is this accurate? What is Eärwa's size compared to a real-world continent? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1n5v63kv]4) You're starting to mow some TTT grass with this one, I'm afraid! Sorry, WL... :wink: [/quote:1n5v63kv] [i:1n5v63kv]Very[/i:1n5v63kv] interesting! :) I guess this non-answer points somewhere in the direction I was going... :) Can't wait for TTT! [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1n5v63kv]5) Cil-Aujas is a dead Nonman city that the Men of the Three Seas know about. Something I have some dev[i]lish plans for. [/quote:1n5v63kv] Also very interesting. Is it to be in TTT or one of the follow-up series? And to close just one more question. About sorcerers. One of the excerpts at the beginning of a chapter argues that since the gods are the architects of the world and had a purpose for everything, then why are sorcerers always called cheaters? And who made the rules of sorcery? What is their place in the grand scheme of things? I happen to believe that they have a purpose although some of the metaphysics they use may be thought offensive to the world. I have some idea that Moënghus is developing some form of sorcery that doesn't damage the creation of the gods, one also that may resist the Aporos, that being the reason the Consult is so eager to annihilate the Cishaurim. About the Aporos. Are Aporetic cants only good for unravelling the cants of other sorceries or can they be used offensively, like those of the Gnosis or Anagogis? Why are sorcerers called Unclean in the Tusk? I believe that they were called that because the migrating nations were in fact fleeing from wars in Eänna that were heavy on sorcery, so anything to do with sorcery would automatically be anathema to them. Am I right in this? Also are there any Norsirai, Ketyai etc. still left in Eänna or was the migration of the Four Nations similar to the barbaric invasions on our own world where literally whole peoples were on the move? Thanks again for your reply above, and hope I'm not pestering you with my questions. :) view post


posted 17 Jan 2005, 20:01 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

The original plan was to write [i:18onjxdy]The Second Apocalypse[/i:18onjxdy] (am I weird for loving that title as much as I do?) as a trilogy. Since the first installment, [i:18onjxdy]The Prince of Nothing[/i:18onjxdy] turned into a trilogy in itself, I'm assuming the same thing will happen with the sequels. Nimil, which is the artifact of millennia of Nonman craft and metalurgy, is actually stronger than Dunyain steel, which in turn is stronger than the best Seleukaran steel in the Three Seas. Earwa is actually some four or five times the size of Europe. I put that allusory analogue of the Norwegian coast along the top as a sneaky way to guage the land masses involved. If everything goes to plan, TTT will include a number of appendices, including additional maps and an 'Encyclopaedic Glossary.' It all depends on how much secondary material I can polish up before my deadline. Your other questions regarding the metaphysics of Earwa and the place of sorcerers in the cosmic scheme of things is something that is also threshed out in TTT. Sorry :roll: view post


posted 18 Jan 2005, 19:01 by Mithfânion, Didact

[i:1lb3nmqm]If everything goes to plan, TTT will include a number of appendices, including additional maps and an 'Encyclopaedic Glossary.' It all depends on how much secondary material I can polish up before my deadline. [/i:1lb3nmqm] And this will still contain the Cunuroi-Inchoroi battles featuring Cujara Cinmoi, right? Interesting to see which of WL's questions will be addressed (to some extent) In TTT btw. Cil-Aujas a matter to be addressed in TTT as well Scott, or in later books? view post


posted 18 Jan 2005, 20:01 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Cil-Aujas is reserved for [i:3igvh4ux]The Aspect-Emperor[/i:3igvh4ux] - a very special place... And yes, the Cu'jara Cinmoi stuff will be in the appendices, if only to demonstrate why it's such a pompous, self-aggrandizing name for an avatar! :wink: view post


posted 18 Jan 2005, 22:01 by Mithfânion, Didact

Excellent. :D view post


posted 19 Jan 2005, 22:01 by White Lord, Subdidact

Thanks again for the quick answers! Also looking forward to the goodies in the appendices to TTT. I've been wondering about the golden haloes around Kellhus's arms. At first I thought they were merely hallucinations, something he induced in others through some Dunyain technique for the furthering of his mission, instead of [i:1wvwqie5]real[/i:1wvwqie5] manifestations from the Outside or wherever the Gods are. Now though I think of them as perhaps being both: at first hallucinations (Kellhus trying to manipulate the world-born) and then also the first manifestations of his [i:1wvwqie5]true[/i:1wvwqie5] position as a prophet, as the story unfolds. Am I right? Also I don't know if you missed the question earlier or if it's one of those 'read and find out' ones. Anyway I'm interested in knowing whether there are any more Norsirai, Ketyai etc. peoples still living in Eanna, or if the migrations really comprised whole nations. view post


posted 19 Jan 2005, 23:01 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

I'm not sure I understand the question, WL... :roll: view post


posted 20 Jan 2005, 01:01 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":dgglhln8]I'm not sure I understand the question, WL... :roll:[/quote:dgglhln8] Just a little clarification, please: did you mean to give that rolleyes emoticon a sarcastic or [i:dgglhln8]suggestive[/i:dgglhln8] meaning? Because its accepted meaning is sarcasm -- though I didn't [i:dgglhln8]read[/i:dgglhln8] any in your answer, so I take it to be [i:dgglhln8]suggestive[/i:dgglhln8]. I guess this means I'll get the answers in the books at some point. :) I just wish I came up with [i:dgglhln8]answerable[/i:dgglhln8] questions, as it's kinda painful to be on tenterhooks about one's theories all the time! :) :wink: Also a few questions (and please tell me if I'm bothering you; wouldn't want you to waste time on silly questions as I guess you're busy writing TTT): 1. About the Sranc. In the scene where Kellhus battles the Sranc in the North we get a description of one of the Sranc's face as being beautiful. Now fast forward to where Akka is tortured by the Scarlet Spires, and his flashbacks to Seswatha's torture at the Mantraitor's hands. Again his face is described as inhumanly beautiful. Now since I know that the Sranc were made by the Inchoroi as a weapon against the Cunuroi, I get the impression that this is an example of perverted Inchoroi sense of humor. I think they manipulated Cunuroi genes and basically preserved Cunuroi faces (beautiful) putting them on misshapen (freakish) bodies, as a way to taunt the Cunuroi. If I'm right I wish I had witnessed their first encounter! :) So is there any truth to this or am I just imagining too much? And why do I think I just might not get an answer to [i:dgglhln8]this[/i:dgglhln8] one either? :) 2. Caste-nobility. Towards the end of TWP Kellhus is accused of being a pretender to the warrior caste. Now since he is the rightful Crown Prince of Kuniuri (regardless of the fact that his nation is 2000 years dead) how can he be a pretender? Even if he misrepresented himself as a prince of Atrithau his nobility should be unquestioned: a similar thing to Saubon's status (a lackland prince but still a prince, though of dubious authority). So I guess the gist of this one is: are there any differences in the concept of nobility in the Ancient North and the Three Seas? Did caste-nobility as such exist in the Ancient North or was it a much less rigid and closed system with upward mobility? For that matter can a caste-merchant or -menial move upward to the warrior/nobility caste in the Three Seas? view post


posted 20 Jan 2005, 13:01 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

No, no, I was using it in the 'oops' sense! I truly didn't understand your question. And it's no bother at all, believe me. 1) I think I should save this one for the striptease... 2) As with all things political, it's the conflux of perception and entrenched interests that matters. Just look at the Inaugural Celebrations in Washington today. Just look at [i:1ay9up99]who[/i:1ay9up99] is celebrating... The castes are strictly hereditary in the Three Seas. There would have been somewhat more mobility in the Ancient North, but only because in many ways they retained the 'freeman' tribal structure of their ancestors. view post


posted 20 Jan 2005, 17:01 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1my59qy3]No, no, I was using it in the 'oops' sense! I truly didn't understand your question. And it's no bother at all, believe me.[/quote:1my59qy3] Good to hear that! Also glad not to be a bother. :) Anyway, maybe I should put the question this way: somewhere in TWP people start seeing disks of golden light around Kellhus's hands (the sign of the prophet; the exact way Inri Sejenus is portrayed in temple mosaics etc.) At first I thought these golden disks weren't real, just the result of Kellhus hypnotizing people to reinforce his position as possible prophet. But at the book's end I thought them really there (unless Kellhus has learned how to hypnotize thousands simultaneously!). So which is it: can we consider Kellhus a [i:1my59qy3]real[/i:1my59qy3] prophet by book's end or is he still playing mind games with the Inrithi? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1my59qy3]1) I think I should save this one for the striptease...[/quote:1my59qy3] Can't wait... :) [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1my59qy3]2) As with all things political, it's the conflux of perception and entrenched interests that matters. Just look at the Inaugural Celebrations in Washington today. Just look at [i:1my59qy3]who[/i:1my59qy3] is celebrating...[/quote:1my59qy3] So I guess it was more a case of them doing what was politically expedient than really believing him not to be a noble... [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1my59qy3]The castes are strictly hereditary in the Three Seas. There would have been somewhat more mobility in the Ancient North, but only because in many ways they retained the 'freeman' tribal structure of their ancestors.[/quote:1my59qy3] That is the way I thought the system worked too. But I guess we'll see some changes, at least, in the Three Seas when Kellhus is Aspect-Emperor... :wink: :) Also reformulating one of my previous questions: you said the Four Nations migrated from Eanna to Earwa, and that a 'Lost Nation' remained behind, on the other side of the Kayarsus. So I assume at least the Xiuhianni are still living in Eanna. But what about other members of the Four Nations, people who didn't want to migrate to Earwa? Do they still live in Eanna, do they have kingdoms there? For that matter are there other races of Man, distinct from the five we know about, living anywhere in the world? Thanks again! :) view post


posted 21 Jan 2005, 10:01 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

The Kellhus question I understood - the Spanish Inquisition would come crashing through the window if I answered that one! The one I didn't understand (but I think I understand now) was [quote:1bt1qwkt]Also I don't know if you missed the question earlier or if it's one of those 'read and find out' ones. Anyway I'm interested in knowing whether there are any more Norsirai, Ketyai etc. peoples still living in Eanna, or if the migrations really comprised whole nations.[/quote:1bt1qwkt] It was the 'whole nations' thing that threw me. I think it would be safe to say that residual populations would have remained for some time, but after 4000 years... I actually haven't worked out any details for lands surrounding Earwa, and nor do I have any plans to. One of the things that characterizes the ancient relation to the world is [i:1bt1qwkt]ignorance[/i:1bt1qwkt], the sense of occupying a small circle of light in a dark and cavernous room. This may just be bias on my part, but I think Erikson and Martin worry the readerly illusion a bit by 'going global' the way they do. view post


posted 22 Jan 2005, 17:01 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":qffn9sa7]I actually haven't worked out any details for lands surrounding Earwa, and nor do I have any plans to. One of the things that characterizes the ancient relation to the world is [i:qffn9sa7]ignorance[/i:qffn9sa7], the sense of occupying a small circle of light in a dark and cavernous room. This may just be bias on my part, but I think Erikson and Martin worry the readerly illusion a bit by 'going global' the way they do.[/quote:qffn9sa7] I don't think you are necessarily wrong in not developing any more lands aside from Earwa. I guess it depends much on the story you decided to tell, and not introducing superfluous details of any kind is a plus. Also there's the fact that there is a lot of past history to Earwa, and the land itself is rich enough in so many other ways, that I know readers will be more than satisfied with the books to come and the details you will share with us, even without you 'going global'. Part of my interest in Eanna is simply born of the fact that it exists on the maps and that it's (probably) the birthplace of Man, so I can't [i:qffn9sa7]not[/i:qffn9sa7] have some interest in it. For that matter you not telling anything about it is also a real stimulus for the imagination and the 'there be dragons' outlook on the world, that characterized imperfect knowledge of world geography in centuries past. Now on to some questions: 1. Are there [i:qffn9sa7]any[/i:qffn9sa7] female Dunyain? I mean girls or women who undergo the Conditioning process alongside the men? 2. Is the Dunyain conditioning process something that has to start at a young age, or can grown men (and women) be trained (at least to some extent)? 3. Can women work sorcery of the kind the schools (both Gnostic and Anagogic) practice? 4. Can you tell us anything on the city of Tryse? Something of its history, how big was it compared to the big cities of the Three Seas today etc. Thanks a lot! :) view post


posted 22 Jan 2005, 18:01 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

The only question out of these that doesn't find itself pinned to a important part of the future story has to do with women and sorcery (and even then!). Yes, as many women are born to the 'Few' as men, but due to oppression, they have no formal tradition as such: they're typically burned as witches. Neither the Schools nor the mundane powers tolerate sorcery outside the aegis of the Schools, so wizards suffer much the same fate. I think I should cut it short there, since it becomes quite significant in AE. view post


posted 23 Jan 2005, 00:01 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3m4kdk4e]The only question out of these that doesn't find itself pinned to a important part of the future story has to do with women and sorcery (and even then!). Yes, as many women are born to the 'Few' as men, but due to oppression, they have no formal tradition as such: they're typically burned as witches. Neither the Schools nor the mundane powers tolerate sorcery outside the aegis of the Schools, so wizards suffer much the same fate. I think I should cut it short there, since it becomes quite significant in AE.[/quote:3m4kdk4e] I suspected I wouldn't get many answers to these questions... Anyway you confirmed my hypothesis on sorcery and women... so thanks! :) BTW, reading another post on sorcery I see you characterized the power or strength of the Few as involving intellect and experience. So how would you rate Achamian's sorcerous prowess, both compared to other Mandati, as well as Anagogic sorcerers? I think there's more to him than one would think given his apparent weakness of character, and since he seems fated to be Kellhus's teacher it's something I'd like to have an idea of... view post


posted 23 Jan 2005, 01:01 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

You'll have to stay tuned for that one! view post


posted 23 Jan 2005, 10:01 by lfex, Peralogue

Well, Mr. Bakker, you already answered most questions I wanted to ask - especially those about sorceresses and other continents. Actually, I expected something like that. Usually magic is considered the great equalizer - since women usually aren't as good at fighting as men, but there is no reason why the shouldn't be as good at magic. Steven Erikson said something like this in one of interviews. Nevertheless your magic system with the schools and ruthless suppression of illegitimate wizards seems designed especially with thought of keeping women out of magic. You said that this issue will play a part in the second series - I can't wait for it! The one question I want to ask are the obvious similarities between Kellhus and Jesus. Did you introduce them just to provoke some people or will they play some role in the latter volumes? I am an agnostic myself, so it doesn't bother me at all, buti t may cost you some readers - especially here in Poland. BTW, Polish edition od TDTCB should be out this spring. I wonder how it will be received. I am not very optimistic, since the publisher doesn't seem to be doing anything to promote it, but OTOH they still have time. view post


posted 23 Jan 2005, 23:01 by White Lord, Subdidact

One more thing that interests me: does Seswatha's Heart induce the Dreams only in sorcerers or can it affect [i:1eu6qozd]anyone[/i:1eu6qozd] who touches it? Thanks! :) view post


posted 24 Jan 2005, 18:01 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Another one verging on TTT... :wink: It's safe to assume that there some very ritualized, very long, Cants involved. view post


posted 24 Jan 2005, 20:01 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":22iykn0q]Another one verging on TTT... :wink: It's safe to assume that there some very ritualized, very long, Cants involved.[/quote:22iykn0q] OK :) I sure wish TTT were already published... Some questions: 1. Leafing through the appendices in TDtCB I noticed in the Languages of Men section a mention to a language of the Meorn Empire. Is this a Norsirai empire from the early days of the Ancient North? Strangely enough, it never occurred to me that in 2000 years many nations could have risen and fallen in the Ancient North before the ones we see on the maps were even born... something similar to the situation in the Three Seas. 2. Can you tell us anything more about the Anasurimbor line, if possible, aside from what we know from the books, something that isn't going to spoil the future storylines? 3. Will the character Aengelas from the end of TWP appear in future books, and what did the Inchoroi mean when he said he could sense the 'old fire' in him? Thanks a lot! :) view post


posted 24 Jan 2005, 21:01 by Mithfânion, Didact

[i:2y2h2y97]Aengelas[/i:2y2h2y97] I love that name. I hope we'll be seeing more of him. view post


posted 25 Jan 2005, 03:01 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":918larjm][i:918larjm]Aengelas[/i:918larjm] I love that name. I hope we'll be seeing more of him.[/quote:918larjm] Agreed, a really cool name. I like all the names in the books... Don't see exactly what the deal is with the people who think them too hard to pronounce or whatever... I guess they're too used to the cliched or monosyllabic ones that glut most Fantasy works. Throw in a few strange accents and you make them go into meltdown... :) view post


posted 25 Jan 2005, 16:01 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Aengelas is one of my faves too. 1) Yes. Actually most of the norsirai from the so-called 'Middle-North' are descendents of Meornish refugees, who would eventually be responisible for the destruction of the Nonman Mansion of Cil-Aujas. I actually have a history worked out for the Ancient North, every bit as layered as that for the Three Seas. 2) I going to keep mum on the Anasurimbor for now. I actually have an outline for a stand alone dealing with the First Apocalypse. 3) The 'old fire' would be the blood of his ancestors. As for Aengelas - well things don't look all that good for him at the end of TWP! view post


posted 25 Jan 2005, 23:01 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":h25b6cn4]1) Yes. Actually most of the Norsirai from the so-called 'Middle-North' are descendents of Meornish refugees, who would eventually be responisible for the destruction of the Nonman Mansion of Cil-Aujas. I actually have a history worked out for the Ancient North, every bit as layered as that for the Three Seas.[/quote:h25b6cn4] Interesting... Hope we'll read more of the early history of the Ancient North in future books. [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":h25b6cn4]2) I going to keep mum on the Anasurimbor for now. I actually have an outline for a stand alone dealing with the First Apocalypse.[/quote:h25b6cn4] OK. Could you just say whether their nobility/royalty dates back to the nation of Kuniuri or if their line stretches back to earlier times? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":h25b6cn4]3) The 'old fire' would be the blood of his ancestors. As for Aengelas - well things don't look all that good for him at the end of TWP![/quote:h25b6cn4] Well I know he was in a [i:h25b6cn4]bit[/i:h25b6cn4] of trouble :) but I have the feeling he's managed to survive... view post


posted 26 Jan 2005, 11:01 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

If I remember correctly, House Anasurimbor rises to prominence around five centuries before the First Apocalypse - but I'd have to go digging into the 'pile' to be sure. view post


posted 26 Jan 2005, 20:01 by Mithfânion, Didact

[i:911q18ga]As for Aengelas - well things don't look all that good for him at the end of TWP![/i:911q18ga] Hmm. Is that a hint towards not expecting too much from him anymore? view post


posted 28 Jan 2005, 01:01 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2rb1u9ro]If I remember correctly, House Anasurimbor rises to prominence around five centuries before the First Apocalypse - but I'd have to go digging into the 'pile' to be sure.[/quote:2rb1u9ro] Thanks for this tidbit! A question: in one of your answers you mention Quya and Siqu masters. We know who the Quya are, so what are the Siqu? Thanks again! :) view post


posted 28 Jan 2005, 20:01 by Mithfânion, Didact

Good question WL, I'd like to know the difference as well. view post


posted 29 Jan 2005, 01:01 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

The Siqu are the Nonmen advisors to the ancient Norsirai Kings during the Nonman Tutelage... You sent me digging for this one. I thought I would post this little teaser of what to expect in the apendices to TTT: 820 - The Rape of Omindalea. Jiricet, a Nonman Siqû to the God-King Nincarû-Telesser II (787-828), rapes Omindalea (808-825), first daughter of Sanna-Neorjë (772-858) of the house of Anasûrimbor in 824, and then flees to Ishterebinth. When Nil’giccas refuses to return Jiricet to Ûmerau, Nicarû-Telesser II expels all Nonmen from the Ûmeri Empire. Omindalea conceives by the union and dies bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825- 1032), called ‘Twoheart.’ After a house-slave conceives by him, Sanna-Jephera is adopted by Sanna-Neorjë as his heir. - The cuneiform script and the syllabaries of the Nonmen are outlawed and replaced with a consonantal alphabet, c.835. view post


posted 29 Jan 2005, 21:01 by Mithfânion, Didact

Interesting. I wonder if Jiricet would be widely cursed by the Nonmen themselves as well. I also wonder what the exodus of the Nonmen would have looked like in reality. Would they have been cast out violently by Men or did it go rather peacefully (or perhaps they were too unassailable) (rhetorical question btw Scott). Or why Nil’giccas didn't return Jiricet (he must have foreseen major trouble yet still...) Interesting that " twoheart" lived for over 200 years, proof that he did indeed have a " special " father. Scott, is this then the main reason for the breach of contact between Men and Nonmen, or are there other reasons as well? Also, all of this begs the ineviatble question, do the Siqu still have a role, now that they are no longer councillors? And on a related note, how high would you rate the chances of your average human warrior being able to take out a Nonman (warrior)? view post


posted 01 Feb 2005, 01:02 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

The Rape marks the end of the Nonman Tutelage, though the relations between the two races would have their mecurial ups and downs until the First Apocalypse. The old Siqu caste, as well as that of the Quya, have transformed considerably over the years. But then that's a story for some other day. The [i:1erchvuj]average[/i:1erchvuj] human warrior? Not a chance. You don't want to get [i:1erchvuj]any[/i:1erchvuj] Nonman pissed. But again... :wink: view post


posted 01 Feb 2005, 02:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

My question seems really dumb, and I don't know why I don't have this completely straight in my head yet, despite my careful reading and the fact that I am on my second time through the two books out...anyway here's my question Scott The Nonmen tutored the ancient Norsirai and then, as you said, had their ups and downs in relation with them up until the Apocalypse. Did the Nonmen side with the Ancient North and the other human races during the Apocalypse given that they fought against the Inchoroi previously? And the deranged nonman we see in TDTCB was allied with Sranc, whom I assumed the two were ancient foes. Just another example of how everything is sort of shades of grey in your world (like reality) or was I missing something? Also will we see/learn more of the Nonmen and Trinkets and such in upcoming novels? view post


posted 01 Feb 2005, 06:02 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":352m9453]The Siqu are the Nonmen advisors to the ancient Norsirai Kings during the Nonman Tutelage... You sent me digging for this one. I thought I would post this little teaser of what to expect in the apendices to TTT: 820 - The Rape of Omindalea. Jiricet, a Nonman Siqû to the God-King Nincarû-Telesser II (787-828), rapes Omindalea (808-825), first daughter of Sanna-Neorjë (772-858) of the house of Anasûrimbor in 824, and then flees to Ishterebinth. When Nil’giccas refuses to return Jiricet to Ûmerau, Nicarû-Telesser II expels all Nonmen from the Ûmeri Empire. Omindalea conceives by the union and dies bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825- 1032), called ‘Twoheart.’ After a house-slave conceives by him, Sanna-Jephera is adopted by Sanna-Neorjë as his heir. - The cuneiform script and the syllabaries of the Nonmen are outlawed and replaced with a consonantal alphabet, c.835.[/quote:352m9453] Wow, that was a real tasty morsel... :) I tend to repeat myself, but I sure wish TTT were already out... Also a confirmation that the Anasûrimbor are a [i:352m9453]very[/i:352m9453] old house. Are there any of comparable age in the Three Seas? I see that the Anasûrimbor have Nonman blood. How significant is this, did it account for their success as a House? Does it give them some special advantages over ordinary human blood? What was Sanna-Jephera's lifespan? Did he die of natural causes and if not how long would he have lived? Also, can you tell us something more on the Ûmeri Empire? Thanks a lot! :) view post


posted 01 Feb 2005, 10:02 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

To answer those you'll just have me cutting and pasting from the appendices, WL. Patience, my friend. Patience. :wink: You're not missing a thing, EE. Everything's some shade a grey, and nothing moreso than the Nonmen. Strangely enough, TTT actually does set foot on a couple of Cunuroi (Nonmen) paths. view post


posted 01 Feb 2005, 10:02 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2afosg87]To answer those you'll just have me cutting and pasting from the appendices, WL. Patience, my friend. Patience. :wink:[/quote:2afosg87] That's cruel... :) Can you at least tell me whether this Rape was [i:2afosg87]really[/i:2afosg87] a rape or the opposite of it? view post


posted 01 Feb 2005, 19:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I guess that is what I figured, which is what I like about this series Scott, shades of grey. I don't like cookie cutter books :) view post


posted 02 Feb 2005, 12:02 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

There's something to be said about historical indeterminacy, WL. I want Earwa to be as realistic as possible, which means I have to inject all the same indeterminacies that plague our world. view post


posted 07 Feb 2005, 22:02 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1kgq7ehx]There's something to be said about historical indeterminacy, WL. I want Earwa to be as realistic as possible, which means I have to inject all the same indeterminacies that plague our world.[/quote:1kgq7ehx] OK, I get you... :) Anyway, I'd like to know if Jiricet is still alive (since it seems Mekeritrig is still in fine shape after 2500+ years), and if he was/is related in any way to Nil'giccas. Thanks! view post


posted 08 Feb 2005, 12:02 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

I have no clue. You struck world-building bottom with that one! Who knows, though, he might find a place as things develop. :wink: view post


posted 08 Feb 2005, 14:02 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":ys78gd0h]I have no clue. You struck world-building bottom with that one! Who knows, though, he might find a place as things develop. :wink:[/quote:ys78gd0h] OK. I really hope we can see more of him... :) Now on to some questions: 1. I'd like to know how many people you would guess live in the Three Seas right now, and how many in Zeum. 2. Unions between Men and Nonmen. Were they rare/unheard of before and after the Tutelage? Just what did they think about it? From what you posted on Jiricet and Omindalea I'd guess that was the first time it ever happened. So did the Nonmen still look down on Men even after so many years of contact? 3. What is the Nonmen's religion? Did it in any way influence the Kunniat faith of the Ancient North? 4. The skin-spies. Are there any female skin-spies? Can they reproduce or are they "grown" artificially. Also can they shift body shape as well as face? Thanks a lot! :) view post


posted 13 Feb 2005, 21:02 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

All told, I would say the population of the Three Seas would hover around 75 million - just somewhat larger than that of the Roman Empire circa 300CE. Since Zeum has a big role to play in the future books, I'll take a pass on answering that one :wink: Unions between the races were rare, as you might imagine, but some interbreeding was inevitable. The first recorded mention of it is in the [i:1j5psfej]Isuphiryas[/i:1j5psfej], which relates the tale of Sirwitta, an Emwama slave, who seduces an unamed Cunuroi noblewomen, who later conceives a daughter, Cimoira. This is going waaay back, though, before the Womb-Plague. The Nonmen have a peculiar notion of religion, which will be revealed in due course. As for the skin-spies, strictly Verboten! view post


posted 14 Feb 2005, 02:02 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3b17idk1]All told, I would say the population of the Three Seas would hover around 75 million - just somewhat larger than that of the Roman Empire circa 300CE. Since Zeum has a big role to play in the future books, I'll take a pass on answering that one :wink: [/quote:3b17idk1] That's a lot more people than I expected . . . Lots of manpower to draw from for any future bloodshed :) :wink: It also seems Zeum is to remain a mystery for some time . . . However I'd like to know where you would put this civilization in relation to the Three Seas and the Ancient North. From the appendices it seems it has always been somewhat monolithic (from Angka to old Zeum to modern Zeum), without the myriad nations that characterized the Ancient North and the Three Seas. The assumption is that culture or "advanced" civilization in Earwa started with the Norsirai in the North with the help of the Cunuroi, and then the other races, with the exception of the Scylvendi, were influenced by it. This we know is the case with the Three Seas. But what of Zeum? Were they influenced by the North or did/do they have an autochthonous advanced civilization? Did they have extensive contact with the North before the Apocalypse? Did they fight in it and did they retain a lot more of that civilization than the Ketyai? It's just an impression of mine but I think Zeum is actually a bit ahead of the Three Seas, in some areas at least . . . Am I running ahead of myself or is there something to this hunch? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3b17idk1]Unions between the races were rare, as you might imagine, but some interbreeding was inevitable. The first recorded mention of it is in the [i:3b17idk1]Isuphiryas[/i:3b17idk1], which relates the tale of Sirwitta, an Emwama slave, who seduces an u[n]named Cunuroi noblewom[a]n, who later conceives a daughter, Cimoira. This is going waaay back, though, before the Womb-Plague.[/quote:3b17idk1] A nice bit of information. So what was this Womb-Plague, and were/are Cunuroi women sterile as a consequence? Any little Nonmen around? I'm also interested in the Emwama's appearance. Which of the present races did they resemble more? Or were they totally unrelated? As an aside, on the matter of race, can you say whether in far antiquity, before the move to Earwa the Norsirai and Scylvendi were perhaps one people? It's just struck me that these are both light-skinned peoples (with other shared characteristics) so a common origin is not really to be excluded . . . [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3b17idk1]As for the skin-spies, strictly Verboten![/quote:3b17idk1] Well I didn't think I'd get much of an answer to this one . . . :) Will we learn more about the skin-spies in TTT, specifically about what was in my question? Thanks a lot! :) view post


posted 18 Feb 2005, 21:02 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Like I say, I want Zeum to be a mystery, to be a 'pregnant unknown' similar to 'Cathay' for the Persians or the Romans. As for the population, don't forget that this number includes Nilnamesh, which is very densely populated. The story of the Womb-Plague will actually be in the appendices to TTT. Suffice to say it was a consequence of the Cuno-Inchoroi wars. I'm actually finding it difficult trying to decide what information can be 'safely' released, and what to jealously hold onto. I want the whole cycle of books to be a long, gradual revelation of the world of Earwa, and even though I feel I've come so far with finishing PoN (well, almost finishing!), there just seems to be so much more story! Also there's the fact that I quite often rework things in the course of incorporating details into the narrative proper. Just so you know, WL, much of what I say isn't final until it actually finds itself in print. Evil, I know... :twisted: view post


posted 18 Feb 2005, 22:02 by RevCasy, Candidate

If that is evil, Tolkein was diabolical. As I'm absolutely sure you know Scott, he changed his mind constantly, even after something was in print. Good company to be in, eh? view post


posted 18 Feb 2005, 22:02 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":5gizymes]Like I say, I want Zeum to be a mystery, to be a 'pregnant unknown' similar to 'Cathay' for the Persians or the Romans. As for the population, don't forget that this number includes Nilnamesh, which is very densely populated.[/quote:5gizymes] I see . . . :cry: ;) Actually one of my next questions would have concerned Nilnamesh. From a few things you mentioned in TWP I had concluded this was a [i:5gizymes]Satyothi[/i:5gizymes] and not a Ketyai nation. So I guess I'd like to know if Nilnamesh was ever a part of the Ceneian Empire or, alternately, connected in any way to Zeum. My idea of Cenei is as the equivalent of Rome for the Three Seas: an empire ruling all the lands of the region. If this is so then I'd guess the Nilnameshi could have been under Ceneian rule. Can you confirm this? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":5gizymes]The story of the Womb-Plague will actually be in the appendices to TTT. Suffice to say it was a consequence of the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.[/quote:5gizymes] Well as soon as I read about it I was reminded of the "every womb a grave . . . for eleven years" bit from Achamian's tale of the Old Wars. The involvement of the Inchoroi in this Womb-Plague seemed inevitable. I guess if it's a permanent thing many things can be explained, even the rape of Omindalea. After all, I'd guess it must be pretty frustrating not to be able to perpetuate one's line :lol: Guess I'll get the answer in the appendices . . . [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":5gizymes]I'm actually finding it difficult trying to decide what information can be 'safely' released, and what to jealously hold onto. I want the whole cycle of books to be a long, gradual revelation of the world of Earwa, and even though I feel I've come so far with finishing PoN (well, almost finishing!), there just seems to be so much more story![/quote:5gizymes] It seems I'll have to improve my technique in trying to wheedle out information from you :) I have my pet theories and I guess it's no surprise to you how even many seemingly insignificant details can be useful in confirming them . . . [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":5gizymes]Also there's the fact that I quite often rework things in the course of incorporating details into the narrative proper. Just so you know, WL, much of what I say isn't final until it actually finds itself in print. Evil, I know... :twisted:[/quote:5gizymes] :cry: ;) Just one closing question: Do trees have any special significance for the Nonmen? I remember a few scenes from the books that have descriptions of 'great' trees (in the case of the dead Nonman city in the North a [i:5gizymes]dead[/i:5gizymes] oak tree), in contexts that are linked to the Cunuroi. Not to mention the great tree in Kellhus's vision whilst hanging from [i:5gizymes]yet another[/i:5gizymes] great tree :) Now from reading fantasy in general and some folk tales I know certain races are said to live as long as their trees live, i.e. many thousands of years. Am I on to something or . . . ? Thanks! :) view post


posted 21 Feb 2005, 16:02 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Nilnamesh is Ketyai with a Satyothi admixture, and though it was incorporated into the Ceneian Empire (the famous fortress of Auvangshei, which for denizens of the Three Seas is synonymous with the ends of the world, is actually a Ceneian fortress), it's grip was shortlived and dubious. Otherwise, and I cannot emphasize this enough, trees [i:35qpqjcv][b:35qpqjcv][u:35qpqjcv]DO NOT[/i:35qpqjcv][/b:35qpqjcv][/u:35qpqjcv] have any particular significance to the Nonmen - as I think will become apparent in TTT. The motif you're picking up on plays a far different roll... :wink: view post


posted 22 Feb 2005, 01:02 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1obuk8yi]Nilnamesh is Ketyai with a Satyothi admixture, and though it was incorporated into the Ceneian Empire (the famous fortress of Auvangshei, which for denizens of the Three Seas is synonymous with the ends of the world, is actually a Ceneian fortress), it's grip was shortlived and dubious.[/quote:1obuk8yi] Thanks for the info. Can you tell us in what book will we be seeing something of Nilnamesh, if not of Zeum? I kind of hope it'll be in TTT . . . :) [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1obuk8yi]Otherwise, and I cannot emphasize this enough, trees [i:1obuk8yi][b:1obuk8yi][u:1obuk8yi]DO NOT[/i:1obuk8yi][/b:1obuk8yi][/u:1obuk8yi] have any particular significance to the Nonmen - as I think will become apparent in TTT. The motif you're picking up on plays a far different roll... :wink:[/quote:1obuk8yi] Well I wasn't 100% sure of linking them to the Nonmen (lots of other explanations) but I [i:1obuk8yi]did[/i:1obuk8yi] think they were important. It surely brings Yggdrasil of Norse mythology to mind. :) I'm very glad we'll be finding out in TTT and not the upcoming series. Seriously, the wait would kill me . . . :) Can you tell us what numbers did the Nonmen have population-wise before their decline, or at their zenith? Usually when one thinks of long-lived races, one can't not associate them to Tolkien's elves which have really few children and far between. Now that does not necessarily have to be true, and I expect that in Earwa the Nonmen should have had great numbers, perhaps even more than the number of humans. Can you give us any details? Thanks a lot! :) view post


posted 25 Feb 2005, 15:02 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

As for your first query, WL, you know damn well what I think of questions of the form 'Will X be in TTT?' I feel like you've squeezed too much out of me as it is! :wink: As for the numbers of Nonmen, it's not something I've really thought about... hmm. Definitely less than the human population, though they did exercise absolute authority over all of Earwa. The history of the Nonmen definitely something I intend on putting some work into as the series progresses. view post


posted 01 Mar 2005, 15:03 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1t9owyoa]As for the numbers of Nonmen, it's not something I've really thought about... hmm. Definitely less than the human population, though they did exercise absolute authority over all of Earwa. The history of the Nonmen definitely something I intend on putting some work into as the series progresses.[/quote:1t9owyoa] I thought you had the history of the Cunuroi as well developed as that of the later human civilizations . . . I also think your answers in Annabel's thread on the Scylvendi and life after death very interesting (and significant :) ). I've been thinking about it for some time, especially on the issue of the Outside, and its inhabitants, and the tidbits you shared with us are very welcome. :) [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1t9owyoa][. . .] Given this overarching indeterminacy, there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies. Certain acts attract the interest of certain agencies. One can, and most Inrithi do, plead to redeemed ancestors to intercede on their behalf, but most give themselves over to some God. Doing so, however, puts their souls entirely into play, and the more sketchy one's life is, the more liable one is to be 'poached' by the demonic, and to live out eternity in everlasting torment.[/quote:1t9owyoa] I'd like to know what, exactly, these "agencies" you mention are . . . It's clear that they refer both to "good" and "evil" creatures and I expect they must include the god/s of Men and also assorted demons, but what are they exactly, supernatural beings (real divinities who had a hand in the shaping of the world of Earwa) or simply various races of creatures who happen to live in another dimension and who can, on occasion, access the physical world (the case of the demon conjured by Iyokus)? Also the matter of souls. Is reincarnation viable for the inhabitants of Earwa? Do souls simply vanish if not 'redeemed' or is there some "repository" from which they can later be reborn into the world? And what of these 'redeemed' ancestors/souls? If they live in the Outside, can they cross the barrier and come back into the world as themselves or through some vessel? (This is particularly interesting because it could bear on Seswatha's Heart). Actually what is the status of Seswatha? In some scenes, especially in TWP during Achamian's torture, it seems Seswatha is actually taking a hand, controlling Achamian, showing himself to be more than a set of memories. I think he could be still alive somewhere in the Outside and using the Heart as a sort of link which enables him to influence events in the world. Anything in this idea of mine? Also a question on sorcery. What is it that determines who is a member of the Few, is it genetic or linked to the soul in some way? This is interesting because from what you said of the Quya they are a caste, so one would expect that anyone born into this caste could work sorcery, so it implies a genetic basis, but still . . . Also are the Siqu a branch of the Quya or an unrelated caste? Thanks! Oh, BTW, how is TTT coming along? :) view post


posted 01 Mar 2005, 18:03 by Mithfânion, Didact

[i:22hgywbk]This is interesting because from what you said of the Quya they are a caste, so one would expect that anyone born into this caste could work sorcery, so it implies a genetic basis, but still . . . Also are the Siqu a branch of the Quya or an unrelated caste? [/i:22hgywbk] Both questions seconded! view post


posted 04 Mar 2005, 21:03 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

TTT is coming along GREEAAAAAT!!! At least, I hope so. It's so hard to gain any perspective on one's writing... Lots of questions as always, WL, most of which I ain't touching. TTT follows the revelatory arc of the previous two books nicely, I think, and will provide partial answers, at least, to much of what you ask. The Siqu need not be Quya, though they could be. The ability to see and work sorcery is heritable, though far less so in Men than in Nonmen. The Quya are in fact hereditary sorcerers. view post


posted 05 Mar 2005, 09:03 by Mithfânion, Didact

White Lord, You may know this already, but just in case, TTT will be released in October. Scott, I was wondering, isn't it about time the Princeofnothing.com website is updated with info about TTT? I don't know if you do this yourself, perhaps someone maintains and edits it for you. view post


wow posted 06 Mar 2005, 06:03 by ilana richardson, Candidate

very glad to hear TTT's coming along great Scot!! personally i've heard on the street that George Martin is close to finishing the second adendum to the first version of the second half of his final book. It's close i can just feel it!! view post


posted 06 Mar 2005, 10:03 by Mithfânion, Didact

Martin has said he expects it to be published in the Summer, which might be September. So it would come out around the same time as TTT, which would be phenomenal. Still, it's not definitive yet. view post


posted 06 Mar 2005, 16:03 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Which is the case in point! It looks pretty certain that TTT will be pushed back three or four months. Penguin wants to organize another book tour, and they want to promote the book when the competition isn't quite so stiff. I'll let you know when I hear anything definite. Jack is actually entirely redesigning the princeofnothing.com site, Mith. Once its up I hope to start adding some new content - I'm too monomaniacal to do more than one thing at a time... view post


posted 06 Mar 2005, 17:03 by Mithfânion, Didact

Wait a sec. Are you saying that TTT will be delayed yet again? How can that possibly be? It was already scheduled for an June 2005 release. Then it was pushed back because Penguin wanted to give you and themselves more time so that they didn't have to "crash" the book and that they would have plenty of time to edit, which is why it was delayed until October 2005. You yourself have said all along that TTT was coming along superbly...... yet now it'll be delayed again? That would be so tremendously disappointing. Why would stiff competition be relevant anyway? They don't even know that Martin's book will come out about that time and besides, they're a Canadian publisher. The US release of TTT isn't due yet for quite a while and that's where the competiton would be. I don't get it. What is to be gained for Penguin? I could see why they delayed it from June till October but now yet another delay? That's just insane. They don't seem to give a toss about their readers at all. Do they even care about the many people anxiously awaiting this book? Apparently not. Man, talk about bad news and seemingly endless delays. All this time looking forward to finally getting TTT and then finding out the publisher wants to delay the book again. This is infuriating. view post


posted 06 Mar 2005, 17:03 by Mithfânion, Didact

BTW something else that I find very strange about this reasoning. Normally authors go on book tours to promote their new book. Wouldn't it actually be handy if the new book came out at that time, to promote it? It seems reverse thinking to me , and contrary to what is common in the publsihing business, to have an author go on another book tour and then delay the to be promoted book. Normally these things coincide. Maybe there is something we can do, the fans can launch an e-mail/letter campain to Penguin to politely tell them how they feel. view post


posted 06 Mar 2005, 17:03 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Well, ultimately all these delays are my fault for not adhering to the original schedule. It [i:hrphq37p]should[/i:hrphq37p] be coming out this April by that schedule. :shock: But I refuse - [i:hrphq37p]refuse[/i:hrphq37p] - to let go of something I'm not satisfied with. Otherwise, they take many different factors into account. Take fall releases, for instance. It's not that they know specifically that Martin's book is coming out, it's that they know that generating publicity for a relatively new author is more difficult because more 'big name' titles get published at this time. Or consider dearth of reviews for TWP. With TDTCB, we had several months to circulate galleys, and the book was reviewed everywhere. Or consider the way TWP got screwed in the last SF Site best of lists... As much as the delay sucks, so long as its only a few months, I'm actually all for it. It'll leave time for reviewers. It opens up publicity opportunities. It'll help synchronize the release dates across countries... And it gives me some extra time for fiddle-farting! All told, I'll have come out with three big ass books in three years and eight months here in Canada. In three years exactly in the UK. And in around 18 mos. in the US. That ain't all that bad, is it Mith? view post


posted 06 Mar 2005, 18:03 by Mithfânion, Didact

Overall, it's not. However if you're a fan who's waiting, and who continually gets to focus on a date, which is then delayed, and then delayed again, that's about as disappointed as you're about to get as far as these things go. Delaying it a few months puts it next to Erikson's Bonehunters, who *is * a big name and sells a book that would definitly be lumped in the same category. But about the galleys, I can understand that. It's true that you need a couple of months to let ARC's go out to various reviewers, to get the necessary buzz. But October is stil very far off, wouldn't there be shiploads of time to still do that? If the galleys go out in June, July or even August, that would be more than enough time wouldn't it? Surely this doesn't require another delay. Unless of course TTT won't be finished by that time. Isn't all of this also a lot to do with wanting the release dates to be the same in Canada, the US and the UK? Because it sounds a lot like it. It's why people suspect The Bonehunters was delayed as well, to allow the incredibly slow US market to catch up. The readers who got on the boat early now pay the price. You'll have to forgive me Scott, I'm just very pissed off at the moment :) view post


posted 06 Mar 2005, 20:03 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Before, synchronizing didn't much matter, but now with Amazon there's quite a bit of inadvertant poaching that favours the early release. In the bigger scheme, though, I don't imagine it's that big of a deal. The marketing is a different story - Penguin has big plans - but like I say it all ultimately comes back to me. I have to give them enough time to do that kind of groundwork - and like I say, if I'd been able to stick with the original schedule, the book would be on shelves within two months! But the bottomline was that I didn't know what kind of a writer I'd be when I signed all those deals. Some can punch out manuscripts in months, others yearly, others bi-yearly, and others even longer than that. It turns out that I've been a year-and-a-halfer trying to meet the dates set in a yearly contract. That's the ultimate reason all these dates have been pushed back. I do apologize! view post


posted 06 Mar 2005, 21:03 by Mithfânion, Didact

No need to at all. In the end what will be remembered is how good TTT is and not how long it took for it to be published. It's a real downer now but once you adjust to a new date it gives a new perspective. It doesn't help that TWP ends in such an exciting manner and you want TTT to follow that up asap. Anyway, you think January 2006 is a likely new date then? That would leave us 10 months wait. Knowing that a date is set is always better than not knowing at all. view post


posted 06 Mar 2005, 22:03 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

I'm thinking January. They told me that it would be a good time to promote the book anyway. Like I say, when I find out the final, final, final date ( :wink: ) I'll post it right away. All I can say is that I'll do my best to make it worth the wait! Failing that, I'll settle for baffle and disturb.... :twisted: view post


posted 08 Mar 2005, 02:03 by gyrehead, Candidate

Scott? Will the U.S. Overlook hardcover of TTT be released at the same time as the Penguin Trade in Canada? I have the first two books in the softcover but have been looking at the Overlook hardcovers and if the releases are going to be at the same time, I want to make sure I grab up the first two in Overlook editions as well! view post


posted 08 Mar 2005, 18:03 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Nothing firm was mentioned the last discussion I had with my editor at Penguin, but she did say that this time she wanted to coordinate the release with Overlook in the US. So I think the chances are pretty good. It would be nice to do an American tour as well... view post


posted 15 Mar 2005, 22:03 by White Lord, Subdidact

Pretty disappointing about this new delay, still not much we can do . . . :( And honestly I'd better [i:3qpcaqdw]not[/i:3qpcaqdw] think about it at [i:3qpcaqdw]all[/i:3qpcaqdw] or I'm bound to go insane. :) I'll be expecting a kick-ass conclusion to the trilogy, however, Scott!! ;) Also as an aside, since TTT [i:3qpcaqdw]is[/i:3qpcaqdw] being delayed, it [i:3qpcaqdw]would[/i:3qpcaqdw] be real good to see some stuff from the book on your site ASAP: some new maps (if I remember correctly you said there would be some new maps), pieces from the appendices or a chapter (or parts of chapters). Also a question (only one this time :), I think I'm running out of questions I think you'd even [i:3qpcaqdw]remotely[/i:3qpcaqdw] contemplate answering!): Did the ancient Norsirai fight wars against the Ketyai and Satyothi or were they too powerful and/or self-absorbed to be a threat to anyone or be threatened by anyone? Thanks! view post


posted 18 Mar 2005, 16:03 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

As Grandpa Plato would say, Only the dead have seen the end of war. Regarding the website, I actually hope to discuss this with Jack in the near future. I can't see much in the way of new content for awhile yet though. I actually have the completed draft of [i:3f20hb48]Neuropath[/i:3f20hb48] to rewrite after TTT is wrapped up. view post


posted 25 Mar 2005, 07:03 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3q9bm0vt]As Grandpa Plato would say, Only the dead have seen the end of war.[/quote:3q9bm0vt] :) [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3q9bm0vt]Regarding the website, I actually hope to discuss this with Jack in the near future. I can't see much in the way of new content for awhile yet though. I actually have the completed draft of [i:3q9bm0vt]Neuropath[/i:3q9bm0vt] to rewrite after TTT is wrapped up.[/quote:3q9bm0vt] I think you should seriously consider releasing small tidbits at regular intervals, [i:3q9bm0vt]especially[/i:3q9bm0vt] before the book's release. I know of some authors who go as far as releasing half the book in weekly snippets on the publisher's board to give the readers the time to gauge whether they think it worthwhile to buy the thing (and the thing is, it works, seems their sales have improved). Now, I'm not suggesting you go to those lengths (I [i:3q9bm0vt]wish[/i:3q9bm0vt] :)) but it's something you should consider: posting small parts of chapters that give people things to discuss while they wait for publication without giving up too much information or compromizing the plot. It would help to keep existing readers' interest fixed and attract new ones. If updating the site is too bothersome for you or whoever does it for you, you could consider doing it here on the board. I think attracting new members to this board, convincing them to register and start discussing the books is also a pretty important move. This board is dead most of the time (or at least parts of it are) and some more activity here would help to draw people's attention, and if you use it to release book-related material I'm convinced it would do so. But enough of this! :) Let me know what you think though . . . On to some questions (hopefully I'll get at least [i:3q9bm0vt]something[/i:3q9bm0vt] out of them :)) 1. You mention that Thoti-Eannorean is the ground tongue of all Men. Could you clarify this a bit, because I find it hard to believe that so many races of Men, possibly living at great distances from one another, would develop and use a single common language. The only explanation is that it is not the original tongue of them all but the earliest [i:3q9bm0vt]known[/i:3q9bm0vt] tongue they all spoke, possibly through close contact or, alternately, a bondage tongue that was imposed on them (or that Men, like the Inchoroi, fell from the sky already speaking a common language which was the platform from which all the others developed ;)). Can you elaborate on this a bit? 2. I'd like to know how far back through history you intend to go. Specifically will we ever know what made the nations migrate from Eanna to Earwa. Since I have a strong belief the events surrounding the genesis of the Tusk will be important to the future plotlines I'd like to know if you'll expand on this period some. 3. In one of his Dreams Achamian tells us of the siege of Golgotterath and he mentions a few historical figures. One of them is Nymeric (sp?) sounding the Worldhorn. So who was he? I think he could be the dead son Celmomas talks about. Am I right, and if not, who [i:3q9bm0vt]was[/i:3q9bm0vt] he? :) Thanks a lot! view post


posted 26 Mar 2005, 01:03 by gyrehead, Candidate

[quote="White Lord":2h7n0qtk][quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2h7n0qtk]As Grandpa Plato would say, Only the dead have seen the end of war.[/quote:2h7n0qtk] :) [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2h7n0qtk]Regarding the website, I actually hope to discuss this with Jack in the near future. I can't see much in the way of new content for awhile yet though. I actually have the completed draft of [i:2h7n0qtk]Neuropath[/i:2h7n0qtk] to rewrite after TTT is wrapped up.[/quote:2h7n0qtk] I think you should seriously consider releasing small tidbits at regular intervals, [i:2h7n0qtk]especially[/i:2h7n0qtk] before the book's release. I know of some authors who go as far as releasing half the book in weekly snippets on the publisher's board to give the readers the time to gauge whether they think it worthwhile to buy the thing (and the thing is, it works, seems their sales have improved). Now, I'm not suggesting you go to those lengths (I [i:2h7n0qtk]wish[/i:2h7n0qtk] :)) but it's something you should consider: posting small parts of chapters that give people things to discuss while they wait for publication without giving up too much information or compromizing the plot. It would help to keep existing readers' interest fixed and attract new ones. If updating the site is too bothersome for you or whoever does it for you, you could consider doing it here on the board. I think attracting new members to this board, convincing them to register and start discussing the books is also a pretty important move. This board is dead most of the time (or at least parts of it are) and some more activity here would help to draw people's attention, and if you use it to release book-related material I'm convinced it would do so.))[/quote:2h7n0qtk] Lois McMaster Bujold did this with her [u:2h7n0qtk]Curse of Chalion[/u:2h7n0qtk] and is generated a huge amount of buzz. I believe she did this with [u:2h7n0qtk]Paladin of Souls[/u:2h7n0qtk] but I did not follow that up as I wanted to read the book fresh all the way through. But this was after I had been sold on her first book. One thing to consider is putting up the first five chapters of TDTCB and TWP asap. This can get more people interested so that when TTT comes out people are ready to jump and buy TTT in hardcover. For TWP and TTT what you might want to do is put up a couple of chapters that are the first points of view instead of sequential chapters (this can take a little juggling so you don't give away too much, but it also creates a bit more stir as most readers who like this type of work tend to look at the books as giant puzzles and have as much fun putting the pieces together as they do reading the books). view post


posted 26 Mar 2005, 13:03 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

The website needs to be redesigned from top to bottom, that's for sure. Jack actually has a prototype, but he's doing it gratis while attending university. I actually have big plans, just precious little time to execute them. The idea was, first and foremost, to dedicate them to the books rather than to me, and secondly, turn them into an online resource. I want to get as much secondary, background material up as possible. I even have a historical atlas I want to put up. But as I've said, I'm a monomaniac. As soon as I try to take on multiple projects, my stress levels spike, and the wheels start to spin. I should get my wife to post about this sometime... :shock: I'm also high priest to the Great God Procrastidemus. So I guess what I'm saying is that these are great ideas, and would probably go a long way to helping the books, I just have no clear idea when I'll be able to throw myself at them 100%. I'm reluctant to incorporate much on the website as it stands, because it won't be standing long, and fleshing out the new website will take a substantial time investment. I'm paying my rent with my writing now, which means after TTT I have no choice but to throw myself at [i:2ilcz9sr]Neuropath[/i:2ilcz9sr]. Perhaps after NP... But then my leave of absence from Vanderbilt runs out, and I [i:2ilcz9sr]have[/i:2ilcz9sr] to finish my dissertation or risk kissing off my PhD. And then there's [i:2ilcz9sr]Aspect-Emperor[/i:2ilcz9sr] to consider... Aieeee! :wink: Am I the only one who's in the hole project-wise? Please tell me no. Regarding your questions, WL. 1) You've hit bottom with the Thoti-Eannorean question. I genuinely have no idea. 2) So far, the deepest the histories go is to the Fall, which is to say, the arrival of the Inchoroi in the last Age of Nonmen. At the moment, that feels plenty deep, and it precedes the Tusk by quite a few thousand years. I haven't been looking at the history of Earwa so much from the standpoint of an 'absolute observer,' as from from the standpoint of what is known or thought to be known at the time of the Holy War. This isn't a rule that I adhere to, just a tendency I seem to have largely followed. There are things from the time of the Tusk I do want to flesh out, such as the conflict between the Old Prophets and the Shamans, the question of how the surviving Inchoroi brought Chorae, the 'Tears of God' to the Five Tribes before the Breaking of the Gates, and the Cuno-Halaroi Wars (Halaroi is the Nonman name for Men). Stuff like that. 3) Nymerik is actually the King of Aorsi, and kinsman to Celmomas (my office is an absolute disaster and I can't find the chronicles, but Kuniuri, Aorsi, and Sheneor were once a single kingdom which was divided among three sons - all Anasurimbor). As for Celmomas's son, you actually learn a fair bit about him in TTT. view post


posted 28 Mar 2005, 10:03 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2iriy83o]I even have a historical atlas I want to put up.[/quote:2iriy83o] That's a great idea and I can't wait to see it. Will the maps be similar to the ones on the site now? Did you consider improving them? Because I actually have a few gripes about these maps . . . For one there's no way to gauge distances; there are no roadways and there are no borders! :) Now I know I'm somewhat of a perfectionist, so what bugs me may not be an issue with others, but it drives me nuts not to be able to visualize the exact sizes of the various nations. Using different colours for stuff like deserts, plains mountains etc. would also help. [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2iriy83o]There are things from the time of the Tusk I do want to flesh out, such as the conflict between the Old Prophets and the Shamans, the question of how the surviving Inchoroi brought Chorae, the 'Tears of God' to the Five Tribes before the Breaking of the Gates, and the Cuno-Halaroi Wars (Halaroi is the Nonman name for Men). Stuff like that.[/quote:2iriy83o] Interesting stuff . . . About these "Gates" . . . What exactly are they? I expect you mean fortified passes across the Kayarsus. This also begs the question: is the Kayarsus even natural. I mean, this is a huge mountain range that effectively runs the length of Earwa and seals it from the rest of the continent like a Wall of China analogue (very convenient for the Nonmen). Can such mountains be raised by sorcery? Were/are the Quya capable of such things? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2iriy83o]Nymerik is actually the King of Aorsi, and kinsman to Celmomas (my office is an absolute disaster and I can't find the chronicles, but Kuniuri, Aorsi, and Sheneor were once a single kingdom which was divided among three sons - all Anasurimbor). As for Celmomas's son, you actually learn a fair bit about him in TTT.[/quote:2iriy83o] Was this kingdom that was divided Umerau? Because you say the Anasurimbor were the third dynasty to rule Kuniuri but the timeline would not support it. It's much more plausible that they were the third royal house of Umerau. Also a closing question. You said you'd not say anything specific about Zeum, still I'm trying this one . . . Is there any contact between Zeum and Injor-Niyas, specifically by sea? The Nonman kingdom is effectively encircled by hostiles by land so the only commerce avenues they have left lead to Zeum. Thanks! view post


posted 31 Mar 2005, 22:03 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

The atlas is in the form of colour bitmaps right now, with the various political regions indicated with colourized transparencies (they look cool), but the maps as a whole don't have enough resolution to allow closeups. I've started a more detailed 'base map' but it is a very time consuming process, and I've been obsessing over what I think needs to be obsessed over the most - the [i:3ahkpvz1]story[/i:3ahkpvz1]... :wink: The Gates of Earwa are exactly that: a series of fortified passes through the Great Northern Kayarsus, which are most definitely natural. Injor-Niyas has been closed to Men for a long, long time. So long, no really knows what's happened, or what's happening there - aside from the Consult. view post


posted 01 Apr 2005, 18:04 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

[quote:27dom668]I haven't been looking at the history of Earwa so much from the standpoint of an 'absolute observer,' as from from the standpoint of what is known or thought to be known at the time of the Holy War.[/quote:27dom668] This is very cool. So many historians tend to by pass the fact that we have to deal with the history of texts (and the historical insight they afford us) as much of the historical information they can impart. As one of my favorite historians notes, "there was a significant dialectic between empirical observation and lived experience of some form, and the generation of these texts" (59). There is the issue of circulation - popularity and acceptability for cultural reasons, as well as thing just being lost (like libraries burned in war time). The sum of all knowledge is formed by what is written and what circulates at a given moment. A text is not a linear accumulation of knowledge because it “did not exist in isolation from a structuration imposed by a brute and shifting empirical reality, manifested not least of all in the loss, mutilation and censoring of texts and voices from the past" (60). (From Sanjay Subrahmanyam's Penumbral Visions) I really like the idea of not everything being able to be known in Earwa... so like our world (however such a condition may be glossed over.) At least that's how it looks for weird history writers like me whose idea of history is outside what is encompassed by official archives and libraries. view post


posted 04 Apr 2005, 12:04 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Cool quote. As good ole Bill Faulkner used to say, the past is never dead, it ain't even [i:35t0o0vr]past[/i:35t0o0vr]. view post


posted 06 Apr 2005, 16:04 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3ufudsfb]The Gates of Earwa are exactly that: a series of fortified passes through the Great Northern Kayarsus, which are most definitely natural.[/quote:3ufudsfb] 1. Only through the Northern Kayarsus? If I remember correctly, on the Eannorean side of the Southern Kayarsus there is some kind of desert . . . Did that make the Gates redundant there? Also why build them in the first place . . . did the Cunuroi have to defend Earwa from someone on the other side in the remote past? 2. Also a question on the Southern Cunuroi. Why exactly did no contact akin to that between Injor-Niyas and the Norsirai exist in the South? Did Men exterminate all remaining Nonmen there, or did they leave for the North (or wherever)? 3. Two questions on the Anasurimbor (don't know if you'll answer, the first is pretty harmless, the second . . . I don't really know :)): You've described the coats of arms of some of the Houses, such as House Nersei, House Coithus etc. in the books, so I'm interested in what the coat of arms of the House of Anasurimbor was like, and if Kellhus or his descendents will start using it again; I'd also like to know if there are any more Anasurimbor (apart from Moenghus and Kellhus) alive in Ishual or anywhere else, and if we may expect them to crop up at some point in the upcoming books. 4. You said that Prince of Nothing would tell the story of the Holy War, and Aspect-Emperor that of the Second Apocalypse, so I'd like to know if the third trilogy will continue the story of the Apocalypse or if that part of the tale ends in AE, to be replaced by something else (ordering of the post-apocalyptic world maybe?). I'd also like to know what made you decide on the twenty-year gap between PoN and AE. I assume these years will be spent fighting the Second Holy War you hinted at in some other post, so why not incorporate both holy wars in the first trilogy? Too much story to tell maybe? I can't stop thinking it would have made for some very interesting reading, especially if it spilled into other parts of the Three Seas . . . Thanks a lot! (Hope I'm not being a bore with so many questions :)) view post


posted 06 Apr 2005, 18:04 by Mithfânion, Didact

Interesting questions WL. I'm interetsed in any Souther Cunuroi info as well, and it would be very interesting to know if there is a coat of arms for the Anasurimbors and whether more than two are alive (actually Moenghus may not be alive either). view post


posted 06 Apr 2005, 21:04 by Tol h'Eddes, Auditor

Yes, interesting question on the Anasurimbor... I always assumed, since they lived in a castle, by themselves, at the other side of the world, that every Dûnyain had a little of Anasurimbor in them. Since they were all alone for two thousand years, there must have been some intermarriage between them? <edit> corrected a typo. </edit> view post


posted 08 Apr 2005, 11:04 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Sorry about the delay, WL. I started the first sentence of this response twice only to be terminally interrupted. 1) Men only tried to enter Earwa through the Northern Kayarsus, though no one knows why. The Cunuroi have no record of having to defend the gates from any race other than Men. 2) The southern Mansions were entirely obliterated. 3) This is something I've toyed with for years, but I've yet to come up with anything I'm happy with. It's what I call a 'high pressure' detail. It needs to be something uncommon, evocative, and threatening... An animal totem just won't do it. Your other questions I must refrain from answering for reasons of National Security. 4) The 20 year lapse was in the cards from the very beginning. Among other things, I wanted the First Holy War to be [i:1u8q5708]history[/i:1u8q5708] by time [i:1u8q5708]The Aspect-Emperor[/i:1u8q5708] begins. That's pretty much all I can say at the moment. I think the motives will become clear once the book comes out, if not at the end of TTT. view post


posted 08 Apr 2005, 20:04 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3q7u2kvz]Sorry about the delay, WL. I started the first sentence of this response twice only to be terminally interrupted.[/quote:3q7u2kvz] Oh I don't mind, as long as I get my answers, that is . . . ;) [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3q7u2kvz]The southern Mansions were entirely obliterated.[/quote:3q7u2kvz] I've been meaning to ask you to clarify the concept of Mansion for some time. So what is a Mansion, a Nonman kingdom, a court, or both? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3q7u2kvz]3) This is something I've toyed with for years, but I've yet to come up with anything I'm happy with. It's what I call a 'high pressure' detail. It needs to be something uncommon, evocative, and threatening... An animal totem just won't do it.[/quote:3q7u2kvz] Can't wait to see what you finally decide on! :) Also, while I'm at it, I'd like to know what Cunuroi coats of arms are like. It seems Men use animals on their standards, so what about the Nonmen? Another interesting thing is the Anasurimbor Nonman heritage (could they have adopted a Nonman-like coat of arms?). Did they know they were descended from a Nonman and what was their attitude toward it? For that matter what did the Nonmen think? Did it give the Anasurimbor a slightly better standing than other monarchs? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3q7u2kvz]Your other questions I must refrain from answering for reasons of National Security.[/quote:3q7u2kvz] And what am I to make of this? :) ;) A closing question. Will Moenghus get some airtime in TTT, I mean throughout the book, or will he remain a sort of ubiquitous hidden presence till the very end? Thanks! view post


posted 11 Apr 2005, 15:04 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

'Mansion' is used both as a term to describe Nonmen cities, and much as the way 'House' is used - as an epithet for dynasties, families, etc. In my old notes the Nonmen also used totemic devices, but in the multi-form manner that characterizes much of their art. So for instance, a Nonmen representation of a wolf would likely show it occupying two or more postures at once, like sleeping/running. Having Nonmen blood means many things - things, which come to the fore when the Nonmen take a more active role in [i:1jerzw1i]The Aspect-Emperor[/i:1jerzw1i]. Sometimes I feel like you're the dirty old man in the strip bar sitting on sniff row shouting 'take it off!' :wink: view post


posted 11 Apr 2005, 16:04 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

Sometimes I feel like the shy onlooker, with perversely fierce sympathies, wishing you would show a little more skin... view post


posted 12 Apr 2005, 03:04 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3p3rosxs]Sometimes I feel like you're the dirty old man in the strip bar sitting on sniff row shouting 'take it off!' :wink:[/quote:3p3rosxs] :) :) Well at least now you know what you can expect . . . :D Just one question (the only one that comes to mind ATM :)): somewhere in TWP Martemus and Conphas talk about the standard of the Over-Army (the Concubine) and there is a description of a golden disk (of Kyranean origin) with strange forms on it (alien, humanlike, with elongated limbs), so I was wondering if this is a sneaky way of giving us some idea of what the Nonmen are like, or the Inchoroi maybe . . . Thanks! view post


posted 13 Apr 2005, 01:04 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Haven't we already seen one nonman physically described? Well two I guess but in TDTCB I thought that to Kelhus he looked much like a human except bigger and with the strange armor and all that. Can;t remember the details though. And Scott I always want to see more of the flesh of this masterpeice revealed! I'm a self-styled "setting whore," I want to understand the world and the setting as much as I understand my own. :) view post


posted 13 Apr 2005, 17:04 by Mithfânion, Didact

[i:2fi66fqa]Haven't we already seen one nonman physically described?[/i:2fi66fqa] Well, I believe Scott has said that the Nonmen will find themselves described in TTT, but I wasn't going to say it because it would take the wind out WL's sails :) Unless I'm mistaken and Scott was talking about the Sranc, but I think he said the Nonmen will be described in TTT. This doesn't answer the question about the Inchoroi's appearance of course. view post


posted 15 Apr 2005, 14:04 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

It's feeling pretty breezy around here! And somebody, please, wipe down the pole... :wink: To the dirty old man in the front row, the elongnation of the figures you mention simply refers to the way they were stylized. To the rest of you: just keep drinking. I pretty sure there's more than enough coming off to keep you interested through the next show. And if not, just remember, the bouncer has lots of these scars... I'm thinking about calling it [i:kp4y37cy]The Thousandfold G-String[/i:kp4y37cy] now! view post


posted 15 Apr 2005, 16:04 by Mithfânion, Didact

Found it! [i:3m770coy]One of the things I like doing (and I've had more than a few of my readers curse me for it!) is allowing the story to slowly fill in the more enigmatic background details, with the idea of having the picture relatively complete by the end of PON. The Nonmen (and Bashrag), for instance, find themselves described in the beginning of TTT.[/i:3m770coy][/i] view post


posted 18 Apr 2005, 20:04 by Triple-J, Commoner

To switch things up, I'll ask a question about what you've already written. Though I do love the PoN series so far, there are some aspects about the story that bother me, and I'd like to get your perspective on them. You can take the following comments as questions or as constructive criticisms; in any event they are no more and no less than the opinions of one of your readers. Kellhus displays a variety of extraordinary powers/abilities. As a fantasy reader, I'm willing to accept a number of extraordinary or impossible things on faith, without requiring an especially rigorous explanation of them. But it is important to me that a fantasy world display some kind of internal logic -- an "explanatory sufficiency," such that if I were to know all the rules of that world, I could understand how the extraordinary events were possible. In general, your books show an admirable level of this internal logic. So for example, I was satisfied by your account of how Kellhus came to dominate Leweth. You explained how Kellhus watched Leweth, what he looked for, how he had been trained to read faces for thought and emotion, and what signals Leweth gave away in response to Kellhus' words. Likewise, I had no problem with the extraordinary level of swordsmanship Kellhus displayed against the Nonman at the end of TDTCB's prologue. Even though the Nonman appeared to be a veteran of a thousand or more battles, had had centuries to study swordsmanship, and (presumably) possessed inhuman strength and speed, it's not inconceivable that Kellhus could win, given his training in the (long-lost) arts of Dunyain fighting, together with his first-rate physical gifts and natural talent with the blade. I guess what satisfies me about these examples is that, theoretically, any human could learn to do what Kellhus did, as long as they had the requisite physique/intellect; were patient enough to try to really understand another person's motivations, fears, and hopes; had undergone the necessary practice/training. But at other times Kellhus' abilities seem inexplicable. He can jumpkick a Scylvendi warrior off a charging horse, snap a steel blade in half with his hands, and pluck arrows designed to penetrate body armor out of the air. As far as I'm aware these things are literally impossible for human beings on Earth. So if things are different on Earwa, I'd want to know how. It's fine if he has some kind of magical aid, or if it turns out he's not a human after all -- but no explanation of any kind was offered. Similarly for his (now) seemingly limitless ability to read thoughts and dominate others. It was comprehensible with Leweth, since Leweth actually verbalized bits of his past for Kellhus to seize upon, spoke openly about what was on his mind, and took no care to conceal his emotions. But intelligent, cautious, emotionally guarded leaders like Nersei Proyas or General Martemus or Cnaiur? Kellhus unerringly guesses their thoughts and feelings even when the thought in question could not plausibly [i:3ntwyo8d]be[/i:3ntwyo8d] expressed on a face (e.g., toward the end of TWP, when Proyas bursts into Kellhus' bedchamber, discovers Esmi, and silently remembers Cnaiur's warning about Kellhus' duplicity). Will Kellhus never guess wrong, or fail to dominate someone? (You might reply that Conphas and Cnaiur are counterexamples, but Conphas has not yet had one-on-one time with Kellhus, and I consider Cnaiur dominated for all intents and purposes because he always ends up doing what Kellhus wants -- he gave away the secrets of War even knowing that this was his final trump card). And how did he find the water in the desert? :D --------------------------- Though this post has become extremely long, it really contains only one question: are you going to adequately explain what you have left unexplained about Kellhus? I hope for my part that the above has sufficiently clarified what I mean by "adequate" explanation. view post


posted 19 Apr 2005, 01:04 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Have you seen some true Masters of some martial arts in action? The snapping of the blade and dropkicking off the horse are definitly possible IRL if you have reached that level, maybe even the snatching of the arrow. Above all remember this is fantasy...take things with a certain grain of salt and amplify the feats possible in the real world. As for finding water in the desert he appeared to do some form of water divination. Definitly possible to do I think. And not trying to steal your thunder in any way Scott, just throwing in my two cents. :) view post


posted 19 Apr 2005, 15:04 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Welcome to the board Triple-J! I'd be lying if I didn't say your question concerned me, because I am very keen to make things as realistic as possible within the given fantastic framework. No one has mentioned these concerns to me before, so at this stage, all I can do is explain what I was trying to do... and leave the question as to whether I succeeded or not for subsequent discussion. With Kellhus's physical abilities, I didn't think there would be a problem because it's stated several times that he's the product of a millenia long breeding project that focussed on both intellectual and physical ability. I thought it would be evident that his physical skills dwarfed those of the worldborn to the same degree as his intellectual ones. Otherwise, I couldn't help but note that your dissatisfaction with Kellhus's believability seems to grow in direct proportion to my slow retreat from his POV over the course of TWP - something for which I have my own narrative reasons. My thought was that I had shown enough of Kellhus's abilities to make his subsequent achievements at least prima facie believable - but there's also the question of whether [i:2yuafz1o]Kellhus is really a prophet[/i:2yuafz1o]... Could it be that you're interpreting this quite premeditated (on my part) ambiguity regarding his character as a shortcoming in my execution? view post


posted 21 Apr 2005, 19:04 by Triple-J, Commoner

Ok, good hint. It's true that I became more incredulous the less I got to see (from "inside") how Kellhus was doing the things he was doing. But now I recall signs that Kellhus himself may not entirely understand his own nature. Having had so much time inside his mind, I began to assume that he alone knew what was really going on, that he was right to disbelieve what others (i.e. Akka) believed about him. Perhaps I was thrown off by this assumption. It's entirely possible that the third book will resolve all of my concerns. Of course, it could also only make them worse! :D For what it's worth -- and again, I realize that my problems with Kellhus are not necessarily shared by your other readers -- I would suggest that if Kellhus does turn out to be a prophet, you need to explain: (a) what it means to be a prophet (b) why being a prophet would give him special powers (c) what made him a prophet/how he became one Without at least basic answers to these questions, the revelation that Kellhus really is a prophet wouldn't help us understand the events of the first two books. On a different note, I have to express my admiration for the way you personalize your characters. I don't have the books in front of me right now (so forgive me if I misquote), but I remember in particular when Conphas told the leaders of the Holy War about the Vulgar Holy War's premature departure: "Conphas spoke, as he always did, as though intellectually filing his nails." Other highlights for me were when Achamian's boss at Atyersus repeated something distasteful "as though it were a morsel of questionable food"; and when Iyokus visited Achamian to apologize, "his red eyes heavy-lidded with indolent regret." For me, these literary touches elevate your writing miles above what I've come to expect from other fantasy writers. You've really rescued the genre. view post


posted 21 Apr 2005, 20:04 by Mithfânion, Didact

Scott, How much of a role would you say Mog Pharau himself plays in TTT? view post


posted 21 Apr 2005, 21:04 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

Wouldn't that be funny if Kelhus was a prophet - then the God(s) would be using him the way he uses other people. Can't think of a anything more disconcerting for Dunyain than not coming before. view post


posted 27 Apr 2005, 02:04 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Triple-J":s2pswjos]It's entirely possible that the third book will resolve all of my concerns. Of course, it could also only make them worse! :D For what it's worth -- and again, I realize that my problems with Kellhus are not necessarily shared by your other readers -- I would suggest that if Kellhus does turn out to be a prophet, you need to explain: (a) what it means to be a prophet (b) why being a prophet would give him special powers (c) what made him a prophet/how he became one Without at least basic answers to these questions, the revelation that Kellhus really is a prophet wouldn't help us understand the events of the first two books.[/quote:s2pswjos] TTT is supposed to be heavy on the metaphysics of Earwa, which should explain a lot of what you (and we all :)) ask and more besides. One reason why I can't wait for the book to be out; it's a hell making predictions with next to no knowledge of one of the most important dimensions of the story. Now a question for the author :): I'm interested in the existence of surviving (human) Gnostic sorcerers (or 'underground' Schools) in the North. From what we know, at least two human cities have survived, virtually isolated, and encircled by numerous and dangerous enemies, for close to two millennia; there are also numerous human tribes scattered throughout the North. So the existence of Gnostic sorcerers where the art was most widespread would be a plausible supposition . . . Am I right in thinking the Mandate are not the only School/group of human sorcerers that has knowledge of the Gnosis at this present? Thanks a lot! :) view post


posted 28 Apr 2005, 16:04 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Thanks for the kind words, Triple-J. Lots a crazy stuff happens in TTT! I am pretty obsessed with motivating characters and events, so if something does strike you as unmotivated, ask yourself what [i:1fepxmch]else[/i:1fepxmch] I might up to. There's innumerable ways to skin the motivation cat! [quote:1fepxmch]How much of a role would you say Mog Pharau himself plays in TTT?[/quote:1fepxmch] As much as he has to... :wink: [quote:1fepxmch]Can't think of a anything more disconcerting for Dunyain than not coming before.[/quote:1fepxmch] Which raises the question, 'What [i:1fepxmch]comes before[/i:1fepxmch] the darkness that comes before?' More darkness, of course... [quote:1fepxmch]Am I right in thinking the Mandate are not the only School/group of human sorcerers that has knowledge of the Gnosis at this present? [/quote:1fepxmch] Yes. :wink: view post


posted 01 May 2005, 01:05 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1hjm5l6k][quote:1hjm5l6k]Am I right in thinking the Mandate are not the only School/group of human sorcerers that has knowledge of the Gnosis at this present? [/quote:1hjm5l6k] Yes. :wink:[/quote:1hjm5l6k] Well at least I got this one right . . . :) A few questions about Aporetic sorcery and Chorae: 1. You said Aporetic sorcery was used by the defecting Nonmen Quya to make Chorae. So I'd like to know if these defectors were the only Quya who knew/developed the Aporos or if there were/are any loyal Quya left who know and use the Aporos. Also do the Consult/Inchoroi still have practitioners of the Aporos or know how to make any new Chorae? 2. I'm interested in the effects of two clashing Aporetic cants: do they cancel each other out? Would an Aporetic sorcerer stand a chance of destroying a Chorae (which I assume is a frozen Aporetic cant that any mundane can use) directed against him? 3. The exact reason why Chorae instantly destroy a sorcerer. I assume this happens because sorcerers, while crafting a Cant are actually imbuing it with some of their essence, and that the Chorae, unraveling the Cant also unravel the place within the sorcerer from where the sorcery comes from -- and so, unraveling this metaphysical link results in the unfortunate ;) side effect of turning them into a pillar of salt. Anything to this? Thanks! view post


posted 03 May 2005, 18:05 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

The Aporos is something I want to flesh out further in future books. The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden. The arrival of the Inchoroi allowed several renegade Quya to pursue their sorcerous interrogations, leading to the production of tens of thousands of Chorae, which were used throughout the Cuno-Inchoroi wars. The Aporos possesses a contradictory, or negative, semantics, and as such is able [i:35ovkmz6]only to undo[/i:35ovkmz6] the positive semantics of things like the Gnosis, Psukhe, Anagogis - even the Daimos. Aporetic Cants have no other effect. Salting is actually a kind of side effect. I would rather wait until TTT comes out before discussing the metaphysics - it has to do with the Mark. view post


posted 04 May 2005, 01:05 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1cuchch8]The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden.[/quote:1cuchch8] Interesting to know the Quya fought one another. But what stopped them (if it did . . .), in a world without Chorae, to assume the kind of power that most sorcerers seem to want in the Three Seas, and are prevented from acquiring precisely because of their existence? Also, since we're talking about the Cunuroi, I'd like to know if they are immortal (or at least very long-lived) because the physiological makeup of their bodies supports it or through some sort of esoteric/metaphysical rite of passage? After all, almost all religions promise eternal life, and nearly all sects with "secret knowledge" seem to think they can somehow gain immortality and bequeath it to their descendants. Is there any merit to this second hypothesis? Thanks! view post


posted 08 May 2005, 04:05 by gyrehead, Candidate

I know it is Amazon (well one of its incarnations). However I noticed that Orbit has given amazon.uk a listing for [u:ruun7ah3]The Thousandfold Thought[/u:ruun7ah3] with a May 2006 release. Is there any veracity to this? May? Ouch. I guess we take them as we are given. Maybe the U.S. or Canadian will come out earlier? view post


posted 10 May 2005, 16:05 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Yeah, I say that May date myself not to long ago, gyrehead. I was under the impression that it would be coming out in March in the UK. As far as I know (and as I've learned, I'm often the last to find out!) the Canada and US date will be set sometime in January 2006. The Nonmen were always long-lived, WL, but it was the Inchoroi who [i:1m4sr84f]made[/i:1m4sr84f] them immortal (the Womb-Plague and the final Cuno-Inchoroi war was a direct consequence of this). This is a tale for another day, however. :wink: view post


Bah! posted 11 May 2005, 08:05 by Kidruhil Lancer, Auditor

Not fair! Mentioning history that we're not privy to... I think we should riot. *Nod.* :D Heh. Sorry. I'm a big one for reading the history behind the story. ( Was a big fan of the Silmarillion. ) Maybe someday soon you can pile all the ancient history into a file and post it up on the board for us history nuts? Please please please...? view post


posted 12 May 2005, 18:05 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1bm4l770]The Nonmen were always long-lived, WL, but it was the Inchoroi who [i:1bm4l770]made[/i:1bm4l770] them immortal (the Womb-Plague and the final Cuno-Inchoroi war was a direct consequence of this). This is a tale for another day, however. :wink:[/quote:1bm4l770] Very interesting . . . You could almost say the Nonmen were asking for it since I assume the Inchoroi didn't do it out of the goodness of their hearts (or did they ;)) . . . :) Now a few questions: 1. A question about the Aporos. Are there any sorcerers outside the Consult (possibly) and the Nonmen who know about it and use it? I assume the Mandate doesn't, otherwise Achamian would have easily destroyed the SS sorcerers in the Sareotic library. But what about the Schools of the Ancient North, did they have that knowledge, is it still known, perhaps by those unknown gnostic sorcerers you hinted at upthread? 2. Thinking about the way the Dunyain first found Ishual during their exodus, and Ishual's location itself (right on the border of Injor-Niyas), made me wonder if they were not perhaps trying to reach the protection of the Nonman kingdom, perhaps along with many other Kuniuric subjects? Anything in this idea? Are there human populations under the Nonmen's protection at the time of the Holy War? Thanks! view post


posted 13 May 2005, 13:05 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

I've actually been considering your first question myself. My original idea was for the Aporos to be a 'dead and ancient' branch of the esoterics. I'm still leaning in that direction, but I find the notion of a sorcery based on a semantics of contradiction and paradox almost too juicy to resist! As for the Dunyain, they themselves destroyed their own historical records to better immunize themselves from their 'darkness riddled' past. As a result, no one knows what their original intentions might have been. view post


posted 16 May 2005, 11:05 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2sbfphjr]I've actually been considering your first question myself. My original idea was for the Aporos to be a 'dead and ancient' branch of the esoterics. I'm still leaning in that direction, but I find the notion of a sorcery based on a semantics of contradiction and paradox almost too juicy to resist![/quote:2sbfphjr] Then don't resist it! :) It would certainly complicate things for the protagonists, but would make for a much more enjoyable tale. A question about nimil. You said it was stronger than steel. What I'd like to know is: do the Nonmen manufacture it through wholly mundane means, or is sorcery involved? Also, is it more complicated than making plain steel? Another curiosity would be why the Nonmen didn't share nimil with their human allies, since they were willing enough to share the Gnosis, which represents a much bigger concession than the secret of a mere metal alloy. And during the Apocalypse nimil would have made a difference against the bronze the opposition was using. Thanks! view post


posted 20 May 2005, 14:05 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

I actually haven't worked out anything much regarding the origins of nimil (which in my notes, I simply call 'Nonman steel'). The same goes for the motives of the Nonmen in sharing the Gnosis, though the first to do so (Gin'yursis, I think) was an exile, and so I suspect had personal motives. You're starting to tap bottom quite regularly, White Lord. view post


posted 21 May 2005, 10:05 by Mithfânion, Didact

Which is understandable really, we're only two books into the series (three as far as you yourself are concerned). If you have a small world then it is much easier to give depth to each and every thing than if you already have a big world with so many things to explain. A few of these questions would perhaps only be explained after Aspect Emperor is finished. view post


posted 23 May 2005, 17:05 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

I'm already running into problems (of the groaning editor kind) with the sheer [i:f5z2yetl]length[/i:f5z2yetl] of the Appendices to TTT. These past few weeks have been blowing my mind, world-wise. I sometimes find it hard to believe I took all that time to cook this stuff up! When I write my Bio, I'm going to call it [i:f5z2yetl]Confessions of a World-junkie[/i:f5z2yetl].... view post


posted 25 May 2005, 12:05 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1sozdyyg]I'm already running into problems (of the groaning editor kind) with the sheer [i:1sozdyyg]length[/i:1sozdyyg] of the Appendices to TTT. These past few weeks have been blowing my mind, world-wise. I sometimes find it hard to believe I took all that time to cook this stuff up! When I write my Bio, I'm going to call it [i:1sozdyyg]Confessions of a World-junkie[/i:1sozdyyg]....[/quote:1sozdyyg] Well, for one [i:1sozdyyg]I'll[/i:1sozdyyg] never complain about the length of the appendices . . . :) Anyway, is the Encyclopaedic Glossary to TTT the only one you intend to compile, or can we expect others in the following series? A few questions (:)): 1. About [i:1sozdyyg]The Sagas[/i:1sozdyyg], what exactly are they? Is there any correlation with the northern European sagas? Just how accurate (historically) are they, and how widespread/popular? Also, is there any mention of Anasurimbor exploits in them? 2. You said all the Cunuroi in the south were exterminated. But do you include Zeum in the "south" as well, or only the Three Seas? 3. From your comments about Inchoroi responsibility for the immortality of the Nonmen, and their brains that decay after five human lifetimes, is it right then that their original lifespan was confined to about 400 years? Thanks a lot! :) view post


posted 27 May 2005, 18:05 by Scilvenas, Auditor

Going back to Kellhus' extraordinary fighting abilities: I couldn't help noticing a similarity to the description of some martial arts masters' (Aikido, specifically, if memory serves) ability to almost see, certainly to sense, projected lines of force from projectile weapons, allowing them, more or less, to dodge bullets. In turn I was reminded, though certainly it's only my own inference, of the Grammaton Clerics' [url=http://www.gunkatta.com/home.htm:21nee6oq]gunkatta[/url:21nee6oq] in the movie [i:21nee6oq]Equilibrium[/i:21nee6oq], and, to a much lesser extent, of Neo in The Matrix. My question is, when it comes to catching arrows, is Kellhus that fast or is he that precise? view post


posted 27 May 2005, 19:05 by SEF, Candidate

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":17bxxidx]I'm already running into problems (of the groaning editor kind) with the sheer [i:17bxxidx]length[/i:17bxxidx] of the Appendices to TTT. These past few weeks have been blowing my mind, world-wise. I sometimes find it hard to believe I took all that time to cook this stuff up! When I write my Bio, I'm going to call it [i:17bxxidx]Confessions of a World-junkie[/i:17bxxidx]....[/quote:17bxxidx] Buy the editor a doughnut and coffee or tell him/her they have great taste in office decor ... hehehe *winks*. I am a reader that loves detail in appendices and I hope the editor isn't being too difficult and remains negotiable. Best wishes! view post


posted 28 May 2005, 15:05 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Thanks for the vote of support SEF. I still haven't heard anything back regarding the manuscript, so we shall see. I'd probably have better luck with whiskey. [quote:2ykd2ugi]My question is, when it comes to catching arrows, is Kellhus that fast or is he that precise?[/quote:2ykd2ugi] Both. He's been bred for exceptional reflexes and spatial awareness. [i:2ykd2ugi]Equilibrium[/i:2ykd2ugi] was a pretty cool flick, I thought. [quote:2ykd2ugi]Anyway, is the Encyclopaedic Glossary to TTT the only one you intend to compile, or can we expect others in the following series? [/quote:2ykd2ugi] It'll be a work in progress, until the end of my days, I suspect. [quote:2ykd2ugi]1. About The Sagas, what exactly are they? Is there any correlation with the northern European sagas? Just how accurate (historically) are they, and how widespread/popular? Also, is there any mention of Anasurimbor exploits in them? [/quote:2ykd2ugi] I'm afraid I'll have to leave this one for TTT. [quote:2ykd2ugi]2. You said all the Cunuroi in the south were exterminated. But do you include Zeum in the "south" as well, or only the Three Seas? [/quote:2ykd2ugi] Zeum as well. [quote:2ykd2ugi]3. From your comments about Inchoroi responsibility for the immortality of the Nonmen, and their brains that decay after five human lifetimes, is it right then that their original lifespan was confined to about 400 years? [/quote:2ykd2ugi] I don't have anything defiinite, but 400 hundred years has been what I've thought... How did you know that? view post


posted 28 May 2005, 16:05 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1n6e0u0d][quote:1n6e0u0d]3. From your comments about Inchoroi responsibility for the immortality of the Nonmen, and their brains that decay after five human lifetimes, is it right then that their original lifespan was confined to about 400 years? [/quote:1n6e0u0d] I don't have anything defiinite, but 400 hundred years has been what I've thought... How did you know that?[/quote:1n6e0u0d] Well, from a few things you said here on the board. I assume the Inchoroi used the Tekne on the Nonmen, arrested cellular decay somehow. Now, the fact that their brains melt down after five human lifetimes could mean that the Inchoroi purposefully left out the brain, to cripple their enemies, so say 5x80 would yield 400 years as a natural Cunuroi lifespan. On the other hand the Inchoroi could have included the brain too, so the causes could be "metaphysical", i.e. that the soul, the consciousness or whatever, also has its "natural" lifespan of 400 years, so that even with a brain phisically intact this condition the Nonmen suffer would emerge. I can guess the surprise after they first noticed it. No wonder they exterminated the Inchoroi. :) But who is really guilty here? I assume the Nonmen were asking for it . . . view post


posted 28 May 2005, 16:05 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

It's [i:10mg9op9]Cu'jara Cinmoi's[/i:10mg9op9] fault, actually, but I'll leave that for TTT... :wink: view post


posted 28 May 2005, 16:05 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":25x7n7cz]It's [i:25x7n7cz]Cu'jara Cinmoi's[/i:25x7n7cz] fault, actually, but I'll leave that for TTT... :wink:[/quote:25x7n7cz] :lol: :D view post


posted 28 May 2005, 23:05 by White Lord, Subdidact

Just a quick question: Do the Nonmen share Men's prejudices against sorcerers? The impression I got is that they were/are deeply involved in the governing structures of the Cunuroi, so the opposite could well be true for them. Anything to this? Thanks! :) view post


posted 29 May 2005, 07:05 by Mithfânion, Didact

Damn. I'd love to be a bear now and just hibernate until January 2006. view post


posted 30 May 2005, 16:05 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":35nobpnn]Damn. I'd love to be a bear now and just hibernate until January 2006.[/quote:35nobpnn] I know just what you mean . . . :) view post


posted 31 May 2005, 03:05 by Dark Wraith, Commoner

Hi Scott, what can u say about the prophet Fane? Did he sanction the idea of the White Jihad? view post


posted 31 May 2005, 16:05 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Dark Wraith":2opkrybt]Hi Scott, what can u say about the prophet Fane? Did he sanction the idea of the White Jihad?[/quote:2opkrybt] Interesting question (which I fully endorse), though if I had to guess, this is something we learn of in the Appendices to TTT . . . :) Also adding some more questions that have occurred to me in the meantime: 1. You said a while back that many Nonmen roam the Three Seas in search of trauma. I assume, then, that many (if not all) are present within the Holy War. Anything to this? 2. A question about gunpowder. Did you ever contemplate this evolution in Earwan warfare? I have mixed feelings about this, though I'd rather not see the jump in quality. To some extent sorcery is a fitting substitute for gunpowder. So what is your thinking on the matter? Thanks a lot! (Again . . . :)) view post


posted 06 Jun 2005, 13:06 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

[quote:1wwy83mb]Just a quick question: Do the Nonmen share Men's prejudices against sorcerers? The impression I got is that they were/are deeply involved in the governing structures of the Cunuroi, so the opposite could well be true for them. Anything to this? [/quote:1wwy83mb] The Nonmen have no scriptural prohibiltion against sorcery. [quote:1wwy83mb]what can u say about the prophet Fane? Did he sanction the idea of the White Jihad?[/quote:1wwy83mb] The White Jihad was led by his son Fan'oukarji I, the first Padirajah. [quote:1wwy83mb]You said a while back that many Nonmen roam the Three Seas in search of trauma. I assume, then, that many (if not all) are present within the Holy War. Anything to this? [/quote:1wwy83mb] Nonmen don't tend to survive long in the South. Remember, the Tusk calls for their extermination as well. [quote:1wwy83mb]A question about gunpowder. Did you ever contemplate this evolution in Earwan warfare? I have mixed feelings about this, though I'd rather not see the jump in quality. To some extent sorcery is a fitting substitute for gunpowder. So what is your thinking on the matter? [/quote:1wwy83mb] Noooooooooooooooooooooooo! :wink: view post


posted 06 Jun 2005, 13:06 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":wtvzgods]Nonmen don't tend to survive long in the South. Remember, the Tusk calls for their extermination as well.[/quote:wtvzgods] Well, actually, I didn't know any such thing until now :), but I've had some suspicions that the [i:wtvzgods]Inchoroi[/i:wtvzgods] may have been, to some extent, the [i:wtvzgods]authors[/i:wtvzgods] of the Tusk, so this injunction would not surprise me. :) view post


posted 07 Jun 2005, 05:06 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1ndb9z0y][quote:1ndb9z0y]A question about gunpowder. Did you ever contemplate this evolution in Earwan warfare? I have mixed feelings about this, though I'd rather not see the jump in quality. To some extent sorcery is a fitting substitute for gunpowder. So what is your thinking on the matter? [/quote:1ndb9z0y] Noooooooooooooooooooooooo! :wink:[/quote:1ndb9z0y] :lol: Here's a question: Does Dunyain neuropuncture have some more advanced applications -- ('cause I have some ideas . . . ;)) -- than we've seen in the books thus far? Any needle-wielding Dunyain in the books' future? :) Thanks! :) view post


posted 10 Jun 2005, 01:06 by Super Frog, Candidate

I have a question about those people used in kellhus' education in human expressions. Were they Dunyain who somehow failed conditioning? Or Dunyain born with disabilities, that perhaps inbreeding caused (i.e myopia, retardation, e.t.c ...)? Or maybe people who accidently stumbled into Isuhael and had to be dealt with (and why not do so productively)? view post


posted 10 Jun 2005, 03:06 by Esmi, Candidate

good question super frog, the dunyain have been in Ishual for two millenia so its possible that they had capture (or taken in) people who stumbled across it. Maybe they used these people to add diversity to their genetic stock. view post


posted 10 Jun 2005, 06:06 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Super Frog":2gaxu60f]Or maybe people who accidently stumbled into Isuhael and had to be dealt with (and why not do so productively)?[/quote:2gaxu60f] I think this is the most likely answer. Actually, I believe Scott has already answered this in some other thread, but I can't seem to find it. Anyway, the issue has come up in another discussion thread, so I'd appreciate any confirmation on this! :) view post


posted 13 Jun 2005, 14:06 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

[quote:1ou8yuph]Any needle-wielding Dunyain in the books' future?[/quote:1ou8yuph] Noooooooooooooooooooooooo! Well... maybe. [quote:1ou8yuph]I have a question about those people used in kellhus' education in human expressions. Were they Dunyain who somehow failed conditioning?[/quote:1ou8yuph] Without giving too much away of the Dunyain and their organization, I would say yes. For the Dunyain, every generation is about [i:1ou8yuph]advancing[/i:1ou8yuph], closing on the absolute. The Encyclopaedic Glossary in TTT fills some of these blanks in. As for accidental intruders stumbling upon Ishual, you have to remember that it's in the long shadow of Golgotterath. Not many wandering humans about. view post


posted 29 Jul 2005, 20:07 by White Lord, Subdidact

I think it's time to resurrect this thread (sorry... ;)) with a few questions :) : 1. Is it possible for unions between Sranc and Men to have offspring? 2. Would Dunyain techniques be effective on the Sranc, or any other Consult creature, with regard to controlling their engineered impulses? PS. It's great news that TTT is done, but also unfair to have readers like yours truly suffer nervous breakdowns in waiting months for the publication... :) As for your question on posting the cover, I think you can post it as an attachment here (though I don't know what the size limitations might be, I suggest checking with the mods!). view post


posted 30 Jul 2005, 15:07 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

I knew it. Who the people in the face room are has been a point of wrangling for a while now. I knew it had to be the genetic "failures." The Dunyain reaction to the "pollution" of the dreams and their initial cause for sending Moenghus out in the first place - to see how far the security of Ishual had been breeched - made me think they were not in the habit of taking in wanding humans, not even as training fodder. And why would they muddy their breeding program with wild cards? And so, as a result of some major inbreeding, where the stakes rise with every generation, you are bound to get some major failures. As some of the kids get quicker and better, the possibility for the flip side increases as well. Witness European nobility - the Iberian royal families in particular. The Hapsburgs too. They were practically retarded by the end, punctated by hot, smart heirs. I second WL on the abysmal interval of finished book/waiting for publication. And it comes out two weeks before my general exams. So I have to wait even longer! :evil: view post


posted 30 Jul 2005, 17:07 by Lucimay, Subdidact

exactly!! inbreeding. there WILL be failures!! i assumed as much the minute i "entered" the face room. (there's an excelled novel by Parke Godwin and Marvin Kaye called Wintermind which your discussion put me in mind of, the idea of the genetic anomalies--it's an unfinished trilogy actually, Masters of Solitude, Wintermind, but no third book--i read it years ago) and i'm curious Tattooed Hand, did anything ever come of your discussion on Kelhus' mother? i browsed that discussion but didn't read the whole thing so don't know if you ever got any answers to that. view post


posted 30 Jul 2005, 19:07 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

No, we had yet to see hide or hair of female Dunyain and Bakker has been extremely tight lipped about it. Which leads me to think that we are going to see/hear something in TTT. We have to assume Dunyain have women since - aside form the obvious fact that Kelhus was most likely not hatched from an egg - he seems to understand things like signals of female physical attraction. view post


posted 31 Jul 2005, 01:07 by Lucimay, Subdidact

[quote:1gy0cke2] he seems to understand things like signals of female physical attraction.[/quote:1gy0cke2] boy does he ever. (there's no emoticon for my wry smirk) view post


posted 31 Jul 2005, 10:07 by Mithfânion, Didact

Well, there were women among the Dunyain that first came to Ishual (see the prologue). Presumably then, there are still women among them. view post


posted 01 Aug 2005, 00:08 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

The status and position of women among the Dunyain will be interesting to see. Another nagging question is how they feed themselves, although I suspect that some of the failures get put on peasant and/or herdsman duty. view post


posted 02 Aug 2005, 13:08 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Good to see you posting Q's again, WL! The book is done, and life once more runs through greased grooves... right down to my coy answers! [quote:3j1z57ix]1. Is it possible for unions between Sranc and Men to have offspring?[/quote:3j1z57ix] No. Though it is possible with Nonmen. [quote:3j1z57ix]2. Would Dunyain techniques be effective on the Sranc, or any other Consult creature, with regard to controlling their engineered impulses?[/quote:3j1z57ix] In principle, there's no reason why not. It's the overwhelming power of the drives that would complicate matters, I think. [quote:3j1z57ix]PS. It's great news that TTT is done, but also unfair to have readers like yours truly suffer nervous breakdowns in waiting months for the publication... [/quote:3j1z57ix] That's OK. I'm ready to be institutionalized myself. [quote:3j1z57ix]I second WL on the abysmal interval of finished book/waiting for publication. And it comes out two weeks before my general exams. So I have to wait even longer![/quote:3j1z57ix] 'General exams'? Is that what they call comprehensives/preliminaries at Harvard, TH? Sounds like you could use some thousandfold thinking! :wink: I'm afraid the mystery of the 'Dunyain feminine' doesn't come to the fore until [i:3j1z57ix]The Aspect-Emperor[/i:3j1z57ix], CC and Lucimay. view post


posted 02 Aug 2005, 14:08 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

What! no Dunyain females until AE! When Father and Son get together they don't ever even THINK how they are connected, via the all important MOM? Sigh. Yes, general exams, which are pretty stupid and ridiculous. You have to prepare a list of 50 books and 20 articles in 4 four fields and then each field supervisor has 30 minutes to ask you what ever they want about it. The reading is basically background prep for my dissertation and as a pool from which to draw syllabi material. Anticipating questions is basically knowing your professors. So yes, some thousand fold thinking would come in handy. Unfortunately, I only think in tens at the very most... view post


posted 04 Aug 2005, 23:08 by Scilvenas, Auditor

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":fvy0qjk8][quote:fvy0qjk8]1. Is it possible for unions between Sranc and Men to have offspring?[/quote:fvy0qjk8] No. Though it is possible with Nonmen.[/quote:fvy0qjk8] So would the offspring of Sranc and Nonmen be infertile, then (same genus, different species)? view post


posted 05 Aug 2005, 01:08 by White Lord, Subdidact

Scott, I remember you saying somewhere that the world "opens up" a lot in AE. What I'm interested in is whether the Outside will also play a role in the books. Up to now we have seen almost nothing of it, if you discount the demon in Iothiah. So I'd like to know if we'll ever get any POV scenes featuring the "agencies" from the Outside, or at least a (more or less ;)) clear picture of what they're up to (if anything) . . . Thanks! :) view post


posted 07 Aug 2005, 20:08 by RiderOnTheStorm, Candidate

I just finished TWP and am still digesting it. I found my way to these forums and mainly i just wanted to extend my appreciation to Scott for his novels and his presence on these boards. I was pleasantly surprised to see all of your (his) replies. Was The God Emperor of Dune an inspiration in any way Scott? Maybe its just me, and maybe its been covered a million times on these forums already but as i read TDTCB and TWP i thought of TGEOD multiple times. More in a philosophical sense rather than any overt similarities plot and story wise. I cant wait for TTT and i will continue my reading of these forums in an effort to peer deeper into this world you have so skillfully created. ****EDIT**** After wandering through here for a bit i see that Scott has made multiple mentions of Herbert and Dune.. So, um, never mind. :) /edit view post


posted 10 Aug 2005, 15:08 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

[quote:9e784xmq]What I'm interested in is whether the Outside will also play a role in the books. Up to now we have seen almost nothing of it, if you discount the demon in Iothiah. So I'd like to know if we'll ever get any POV scenes featuring the "agencies" from the Outside, or at least a (more or less ) clear picture of what they're up to (if anything) . . . [/quote:9e784xmq] Ciphrangic POVs? Lay this one on me again after TTT, WL... :wink: [quote:9e784xmq]Was The God Emperor of Dune an inspiration in any way Scott?[/quote:9e784xmq] Huge, Rider - though I didn't particularly like any of the books following [i:9e784xmq]Dune[/i:9e784xmq]. They literally changed my life. view post


posted 10 Aug 2005, 17:08 by Lucimay, Subdidact

[quote:31xa1l77]Quote: Was The God Emperor of Dune an inspiration in any way Scott? [/quote:31xa1l77] ah! i've been waiting for the answer to that question too! AND i feel the same way about the Dune series! my Pop turned me on to Dune, or tried to, when I was about 15 or 16. i blew it off (thinking my old dad a geezer!) as i wanted to read what i considered more "contemporary" sci-fi!! :lol: took me 3 or 4 more years to finally pick it up and realize my old dad was right, classics are classics for a reason!! so i loved the first trilogy of Dune but i thought the books got weaker and weaker. finally gave up on it and read Herbert's White Plague instead! view post


posted 10 Aug 2005, 18:08 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

After [i:qip4xfqx]Dune[/i:qip4xfqx], [i:qip4xfqx]The White Plague[/i:qip4xfqx] and [i:qip4xfqx]The Jesus Incident[/i:qip4xfqx] are my two favourite Herbert books. I gotta dig back into that stuff. view post


posted 10 Aug 2005, 18:08 by Lucimay, Subdidact

ah! you are the ONLY person i've ever mentioned The White Plague to that has actually READ it!!!! i'm so pleased! i never did read The Jesus Incident but will pick it up!! view post


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