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The Destruction of the Dunyain posted 12 Apr 2005, 23:04 by Morgoth Bauglir, Candidate

The Dunyain, perpetuators of both Moenghus and Kellhus, have proven to be a thorn in the side of a few entities in PON, namely The Consult, The Nansur, Moenghus and therefore the Cishaurim, etc. Do you think that, eventually, either in TTT, The Aspect-Emperor, or some other storyline, that eventually the Dunyain will have to be eliminated? Think about it; Moenghus travels into the world, the Prima sends Kellhus to kill Moenghus, Kellhus hijacks the Holy War instead of Conphas, and complicates the plans of The Consult- any more like Kellhus, which I'm certain there are, would be a MAJOR threat to the ongoings of the Three Seas. Is time running out for the Conditioned of Ishual? view post


posted 13 Apr 2005, 20:04 by Cynadar, Candidate

If they truly are conditioned, they shouldn't have to worry about this; their conditioned nature would allow them to fight this battle with great ease. We saw earlier in the Warrior-Prophet (or maybe The Darkness That Comes Before, I can't remember) Kellhus fight off 3 (or 4) assassins at once, IN THE MIDDLE OF A PROBABILITY TRANCE. Just try to imagine thousands of them fully armed and ready for combat... view post


posted 13 Apr 2005, 22:04 by Morgoth Bauglir, Candidate

This is all well and good, however, how close can a Dunyain get to a hostile Imperial Saik, Scarlet Schoolman, Mandati or Cishaurim, not to mention whatever horrors the Consult wield? For all we know, there could be dozens of different sorcerous texts that the Consult posess. Remember that the Dunyain are NOT all-knowing; Kellhus himself professes this. My prediction is that, should Ishual be attacked by a School, they would not survive. view post


posted 14 Apr 2005, 03:04 by White Lord, Subdidact

I don't think the Dunyain will be destroyed outright, nor do I think you should view them only in a negative light. They are misguided, but by their very nature things can be explained to them, and I don't see Kellhus or anyone else throwing them away. Also from things Scott has said, I think we can expect great things from the Dunyain. We know from the ending of TWP that the Consult are searching for the Dunyain. They will probably be found. They will probably be flushed out of Ishual with sorcery, because otherwise a few thousand Dunyain are invincible, (remember the prologue of tDtCB and the Dunyain erasing sorcerous runes from the walls of Ishual - probably Wards against sorcery.) But you have to consider the location of Ishual itself: right next door to Injor-Niyas. If the Consult use sorcery there, the Nonmen Quya will be involved, and I predict the Nonmen and Dunyain will link up at some point. As to what could happen next, there's too little data to be sure . . . but for me the Dunyain are on the side of the good guys, if you can call [i:k2o0teyu]anyone[/i:k2o0teyu] 'good' in these books. :) view post


posted 14 Apr 2005, 06:04 by H, Auditor

But if the Dunyain haven't been found in the preceeding 2,000 years, what makes everyone think that they'd be found now? I doubt if the Consult has not tried to find them before, in fact, they probably have been looking for at least 1,500 years, and still haven't succeeded. I doubt if a school would have the resources to find them, i mean, the Consult would presumable have far more resources at their disposal in the North than any school, so if anyone is going to find them, i'd bet on the Consult. Although i still doubt they could be found at all... view post


posted 14 Apr 2005, 07:04 by White Lord, Subdidact

The Consult only found out they [i:mynbnadh]existed at all[/i:mynbnadh] some time during TWP. From what we know, it is possible to make fortresses invisible with sorcery. It's what was done with Golgotterath by the Nonmen. That's why the scene where the Dunyain destroy the Warding runes might be important. We don't know if they have completely destroyed Ishual's defenses so it could mean that it could still be protected from attack but not invisible, or it could mean it's not protected at all, but if the Consult want to find them they will probably succeed. After all they have whole armies of Sranc available, and the last scene in TWP has them searching the Dunyain in Akksersia, on the other side of the continent, so if they're searching there they must be doing it everywhere. view post


posted 16 Apr 2005, 19:04 by Andrew, Peralogue

safe to say that a single schoolman whether gnostic, anagogic etc., could wipe out the Dunyain. Their only hope would be if they've held onto trinkets, not knowing what they are, but rather, considering them heirlooms or something. That is possible considering that the Dunyain who first came to Ishual probably had some kind of protection in order to escape destruction. Question i have is, will Kellus return to Ishual prior to the Consult discovering it, or not? Eventually he's going to conclude that the only way to effectively deal with skin-spy infiltration is to have more of his brethren around. Although there are of course certain risks involved in bringing more Dunyain into the picture - most notably, the risk of Kellus' power & methods being revealed. view post


posted 16 Apr 2005, 19:04 by Andrew, Peralogue

In respect of WL's comment about searching everywhere for the dunyain, i would think that the consult would not quickly consider that their enemy is sitting on their very doorstep. Ishual is deep within what the consult would probably consider their home turf. Recall that Kellus traveled south for many days before coming across Leweth who was himself quite isolated from men. It is not just that Ishual is in an unlikely place, but that there are supposed to be NO humans around there. The current search methodology of the consult assumes that the Dunyain are some obscure tribe or people who have actual contact with the world and live near other people. So to get to the point, i think the Dunyain are safe for a while. Just a question of time! view post


posted 16 Apr 2005, 23:04 by H, Auditor

Well, the fact that they are removing the wards means they [i:1h459k30]want[/i:1h459k30] to be found, maybe not right now, but they are obviously making it so they are not so well hidden. Whom they want to find them is another question. My thought is they want the Consult to find them, because they will be prepared for them, or have [i:1h459k30]something[/i:1h459k30] prepared for them. The scene where we see part of Kellhus' training, where they have created a way to control the muscles of faces, has me thinking that the Dunyain have science that is [i:1h459k30]at least[/i:1h459k30] equal to the science of the Consult (technic? i can't remember the exact name). This has me thinking that the Dunyain want the Consult to find them soon, so that they can fight them around and within Ishual, where they probably have some devestating weapons, and can control the fighting better. If the Dunyain field an army of Conditioned, within confined space, i don't think that even a force of 10 times as many Sranc could break them. Conditioned supported by high science and/or natural defences would make them almost impenetrable. And if somehow Andrew's theory in the other thread is right, and the Dunyain gain access to the Gnosis, i don't think 100x their numbers in Sranc could hope to defeat them. view post


posted 18 Apr 2005, 03:04 by Cynadar, Candidate

The only problem with the Dunyian being found is: currently two men (outside of Ishual) know where the fortress is. The consult will have to resort to actual searching (unlike the torchuring scene that cncluded the Warrior-Prophet). If they are to find the Dunyian, who's to say that the consult will decide to kill them? Perhaps they will propose a pact between the Conditioned to destroy the rest of the world? Imagine the power achieved in an alliance of Conditioned and skin-spying Consult! Imagine if Kellhus, Moenghus, and the rest of the Three-Seas have to take on the power of the full Dunyian army and the Consult. That may be how Kellhus turns out to be the Harbinger of the Second Apocolypse. This seems an almost impossibility. But who knows what that crazy Mr. Bakker is setting up in the conclusion to this great series.... view post


posted 20 Apr 2005, 05:04 by Andrew, Peralogue

When the Dunyain scrubbed the walls of ishual and burned the magic books, they had just barely escaped from the wars and destruction unleashed by the consult - they were haggard and diminished survivors. I've always taken their actions as a symbolic rejection of the world they had left behind. The Dunyain seem to value isolation and a pure search for the Logos as the only thing worthwhile. They reject gods and magic as superstition, so i don't think that they were intentionally making themselves findable by those acts. Also consider that they did that stuff 2000 yrs before the setting of PoN. In respect of the manipulation of faces which the dunyain engage in, from what I recall they have simply discovered that direct manipulation of the brain via needles causes physical manifestations of certain emotions. That is not on the same order, or even of a like nature, with the Tekne, through which the consult is able to construct NEW beings with specific determinable attributes. I think i have to revise my random prediction about the Dunyain collectively being taught the Gnosis. Seems to me that all the Dunyain who received the Dream from Moenghus went and killed themselves (except for Kellus of course). The only other example of dream communication we have is when Akka contacted his Mandate brothers (ie. dream communication between the Few). If dream communication can only occur between the Few (or alternatively, if only the Few are easily findable by a sorceror who must search out persons from a distance), then all the Dunyain who received the dreams and killed themselves, would be all the Dunyain who could learn sorcery. view post


posted 22 Apr 2005, 00:04 by Grantaire, Moderator

It's not like Ishual is impossible to find. Recall, it was a band of Sranc coming across the fortress that was the original reason for Moenghus leaving. view post


posted 23 Apr 2005, 15:04 by Andrew, Peralogue

yeah i agree grantaire. but there is a difference between someone randomly and accidentally stumbling across something in a place you never expected it would be, and someone actively searching for something in a place you don't expect it to be. I don't know how many times i've searched in vain for something in all the likely places where i think it should be, only to find that thing a week later in a completely unlikely place when i'm not searching for it anymore. view post


posted 27 Apr 2005, 01:04 by White Lord, Subdidact

I'm in agreement with almost everything Andrew wrote. A few comments: 1. The Dunyain are obviously safe for a good while, just as you said, but [i:2fuic0xu]ultimately[/i:2fuic0xu] they will be found, and what's important is how fast that'll happen: will it be before or after the beginning of the Apocalypse? You obviously see that the location of Ishual, and the mentality of the Dunyain, make them as likely to side with or against the Consult, and the nearby presence of the Nonmen makes for an explosive mix, especially if the Dunyain [i:2fuic0xu]do[/i:2fuic0xu] in fact join the Nonmen. 2. With regard to sorcery I think it's safe to assume that Moenghus only contacted people he [i:2fuic0xu]knew[/i:2fuic0xu] before leaving Ishual, and that he chose more than one for simple security/redundancy; I also think that for [i:2fuic0xu]two-way[/i:2fuic0xu] communication both sides would have to belong to the Few, but for one-way communication I expect all one'd have to do was know the person and the location to send these dreams. 3. Regarding your speculations on the Dunyain having sorcerous potential, all things are possible, but I'd first like to know if there are any more Anasurimbor at Ishual (something Scott has refused to answer :)) and also how much Anasurimbor blood is in the rest of the Dunyain. I think the Anasurimbor line may be hereditary sorcerers (remember they are descended from a Nonman, and if he was a Quya it could be that every future generation has this ability, or at least a very significant number of descendants unlike other humans). view post


posted 01 May 2005, 02:05 by Andrew, Peralogue

i almost have the feeling that the Dunyain would side with anyone who would agree to leave them alone after the end of the war!! About the possibility of other Anasurimbor's in Ishual i would think there have to be a lot. after 2000 years of isolation, there's got to be a lot of anasurimbor in them all. I think that Scott said once that Kellus is a prodigy among the Dunyain, and i would guess that his ancestors were also pretty exceptional Dunyain. I'm sure that the Dunyain would have figured out the merits of selective breeding and taken full value out of their exceptional anasurimbors over the years. I don't get the impression that they would be sentimental about those kinds of things... maybe moenghus just contacted the ones he disliked knowing they'd off themselves! You are probably right though WL about one-way communication not needing 2 sorcerors. view post


posted 02 May 2005, 23:05 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

It seems unlikely to me that the Dunyain would side with the Consult. Not because they would be repulsed by the Consult's evil, but because the Consult's methods and goals would get in the way of the Dunyain mission. Remember, during the last Apocalypse, no babies were born (or were still born) for 11 years. This would get in the way of the breeding program. (Although we have yet to see any female Dunyain and they could possibly have babies in other ways... gulp). But still, the Consult seems to run roughshod over anyone and everyone it likes I don't see them tiptoing around the Dunyain or leaving them alone. I also don't see the Dunyain making compromises with the Consult. I feel like the Consult would try to out and out destroy them if met with resistance (although they might be in for a nasty surprise). I doubt the skin spies are the only good in their bag of tricks. view post


posted 05 Jul 2005, 08:07 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

The Dunyain haven't been found because no one is looking for them, until now. That is no longer the case. While they are individually formidable, they don't seem to believe in sorcery (from Kellhus's reaction) and the Consult does have vast amounts of cannon fodder to throw at them. The Dunyain have a serious problem if the Consult find them.. view post


posted 05 Jul 2005, 22:07 by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

While I agree that the Dunyain are in trouble if found, I think everyone seems to underestimate them. We have no idea what they may be capable of in large groups, and they may have abilities such as group probability trances which yield more potent results. It would be almost impossible to eradicate them, to my mind, it would become an unwinnable guerrilla war. view post


posted 06 Jul 2005, 20:07 by Hackhius, Commoner

Has anyone considered that the whole reason Moenghus summoned Kellhus in the first place was to bridge the gap between the Dunyain and the ways of the few. Now that Moe is a ranking Cisharum, and Kellhus is on the cusp of learning the secrets of the Gnosis, the Dunyain could be very well armed if these two spread this knowledge throught their people. Furthermore, we have yet to see what one of the conditioned can do with sorcery. We see what they can accomplish on the plain of world-born men (i.e. mind-manipulation, easily thwarting assasination attempts, etc.). When given the knowledge of sorcery, they could very well become the most powerful faction in all the Three Seas. view post


posted 06 Jul 2005, 21:07 by Deerow, Auditor

It would make sense. The Holy War has taken a toll on all groups with any dominance in the Three Seas. Fanim, Inrithi, and the schools (namely the Scarlet Spires and Cisharum) have all taken a hit. Add on top of that the potential of the Consult getting involved (and, perhaps, Moengus playing some part in that as well) and there will be even less resistance. Only the Dunyain (and Zeum and some other seemingly peripheral areas) have gone without sustaining heavy loses. Could Moengus be manufacturing the Second Apocalypse with the intention of reigning the Three Seas, if not all of Earwa, after the dust settles? Maybe. Guess we'll have to wait for TTT. view post


posted 01 Sep 2005, 12:09 by Mithfânion, Didact

I think the idea of The Dunyain siding with anyone from the outside world needs to be revised. They live in total isolation and to do so is one of their main goals. Just the fact that someone from the outside contacts them through dreams is enough to take their life. I do not see a scenario in which Kellhus has access to various Dunyain to sniff out skin spies all over the place, because that is not what they do. If they are to ally with anyone, may that be Kellhus, the Cunuroi or simply the Men of the North, their very nature and beliefs would have to change completely. BTW I think Scott mentioned something about female Dunyain and whether we might see them in Aspect Emperor. view post


posted 01 Sep 2005, 12:09 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":3e6titui]I think the idea of The Dunyain siding with anyone from the outside world needs to be revised. They live in total isolation and to do so is one of their main goals. Just the fact that someone from the outside contacts them through dreams is enough to take their life. I do not see a scenario in which Kellhus has access to various Dunyain to sniff out skin spies all over the place, because that is not what they do. If they are to ally with anyone, may that be Kellhus, the Cunuroi or simply the Men of the North, their very nature and beliefs would have to change completely.[/quote:3e6titui] Yes, but do the Dunyain strike you as monomaniacs? If their environment changes (most probably in a forced intervention from outside) do you see them not changing, adapting? All you have to do is compare how Moenghus and Kellhus have fared in the outside world. They certainly didn't turn into morons or kill themselves. I can give you the argument that, as long as they are isolated, they will stay put. But I don't think we can count on someone from the outside not interfering with them. And if that interference is more than they can cope with, that forces them to even abandon Ishual, then it is more than possible for them to try to safeguard themselves with an alliance with someone from the outside. view post


posted 01 Sep 2005, 23:09 by Mithfânion, Didact

It's possible, but it would require the Dunyain to change, as I said in my previous post, to completely alter their ideas about how to live. Their principle is to live in utmost seclusion, to not be tainted in any way. As I see it, if the Dunyain are willing to slay themselves because someone interfered with their purity by sending them dreams, they're likely to react similarly suicidal when an invasion force comes along that manages to overcome them. view post


posted 04 Sep 2005, 16:09 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":2gqemc50]It's possible, but it would require the Dunyain to change, as I said in my previous post, to completely alter their ideas about how to live. Their principle is to live in utmost seclusion, to not be tainted in any way. As I see it, if the Dunyain are willing to slay themselves because someone interfered with their purity by sending them dreams, they're likely to react similarly suicidal when an invasion force comes along that manages to overcome them.[/quote:2gqemc50] Again I cannot agree with this. Are you saying that Moenghus and Kellhus were unable to change after going "outside"? And why didn't they kill themselves when they were forced to abandon the other Dunyain, if they were so uneasy about giving up their way of life, or if they had been utterly incapable, from a psychological/conditioning standpoint, to do so? And there is no point saying that the other Dunyain would be unable. Especially using as an example Dunyain who haven't [i:2gqemc50]even been[/i:2gqemc50] exposed to the outside world in the first place, and so have no need to change their [i:2gqemc50]modus operandi[/i:2gqemc50]. What they did was an acceptable sacrifice, while they had a stable environment around them. When that changes they certainly won't self-destruct. There would be no point erasing a 2000-year-old project when there is no absolute and inevitable need to do so. If they are forced to change, then what I said in my previous post is a distinct possibility. Also, as Scott has said, their present position on isolation has evolved through time. More important still, the Dunyain have a Mission, and that is more important than anything else. The most important thing, in fact, is the survival of the Dunyain at all costs, so the Mission can continue. And that is worth any sacrifice. They surely won't turn sentimental if something sours their plans for a while. ;) view post


posted 06 Sep 2005, 16:09 by Mithfânion, Didact

And again, I do not agree with what you have to say :) [i:3e2a1h8n]Are you saying that Moenghus and Kellhus were unable to change after going "outside"? And why didn't they kill themselves when they were forced to abandon the other Dunyain[/i:3e2a1h8n] Did you see me say that? No. Moenghus and Kellhus are men on a mission. They are [b:3e2a1h8n]willing[/b:3e2a1h8n] to change, or at least we have seen that Kellhus is. They are willing to change because they are on a mission and [b:3e2a1h8n]thrust into the world of worlborn Men[/b:3e2a1h8n]. The Dunyain in Ishual however are a very secluded people who believe their best interests are served by keeping it that way, who want to stay as [b:3e2a1h8n]pure[/b:3e2a1h8n] as possible. They still have each other and have no reason to change policy, no reason to want to change. Unlike Kellhus. I am not saying that the Dunyain allying with Nonmen or the Consult or the world of worlborn Men is impossible, but it would require a complete turnaround of their mindset. Even the dreams of an intruder are enough to kill themselves. You cannot possibly think these very people would willingly ally themselves with other outside influences. No way. Unless, they do a turnaround and their mindset changes, as I said from the start. Maybe if they see the advantages of interacting with the world and cease seeing it as a great disruption from their path..... [i:3e2a1h8n]When that changes they certainly won't self-destruct. There would be no point erasing a 2000-year-old project when there is no absolute and inevitable need to do so[/i:3e2a1h8n] That's just your speculation yet you talk as if it were a certainty. If anything there is evidence to believe they will, since they committed suicide over an invasive dream. The only reason you say they won't, is because you simply can't believe they would do it. [i:3e2a1h8n]The most important thing, in fact, is the survival of the Dunyain at all costs, so the Mission can continue. [/i:3e2a1h8n] Again, speculation. What the Dunyain's mission seems to be is Logos related. If they feel their goal would be achieved best by killing themselves than they look like they'd do it in a heartbeat. [/i] view post


posted 06 Sep 2005, 17:09 by White Lord, Subdidact

You know what, Mith, it's kinda hard discussing things with you. Every time I say something, you say this is just my speculation, or that I'm pulling these ideas out of thin air. Well, I'd like to know what makes your statements, or your beliefs on the Dunyain more right than mine? On the face of available evidence I'd say that my position is somewhat stronger than yours. You simply fail to address some very pertinent observations I made on the Dunyain and their possible behavior. And if you choose to dismiss them or gloss over them there is no point in discussion. In fact this last post of yours basically says more or less what I said in the first place, that they'll change if they have no other choice. I think I made that clear. Also that I think they really won't have any other choice but to involve themselves. So I repeat: if you choose to misread/ignore most of what I say there is no point in keeping this up . . . But I think I'll wait for someone else to comment on this. In fact, I'd really like for someone to show this board isn't deader than a doornail for a change. Show some life for crying out loud! It's depressing when you have to wait a week or a month for someone to respond. Actually makes me want to quit posting altogether . . . But enough of my rants. ;) view post


posted 06 Sep 2005, 19:09 by Twayleph, Auditor

Well to the risk of getting caught in a crossfire between Mith and WL, here's my opinion on the subject. Would it be so hard for them to change their ways of life - from isolation and secrecy to active involvement in world-born society? Not really. In fact, the Dûnyain strike me as the people who would have the least difficulty adapting their activities to circumstances. To world-born men it would indeed appear as a complete turn-around on their ways, but perhaps not to the Dûnyain. They would probably think that in allying with world-born Men, Nonmen and who-knows-what else, they are still doing what they have always been doing - following the Shortest Path to their destination. In this case, maximizing their chances of survival so they can continue their Conditioning after the dust settles. But it seems to me that allying with human nations isn't their only choice - not even their most likely. Based on the Consult's complete ignorance of the Dûnyain until very recently and to the context of the prologue, it seems that their reaction to War was to flee, not to ally with mankind's defenders. Why should their reaction this time around be any different? If the Consult besieges Ishuäl (or shows sign of wanting to besiege it), could they not simply flee that old citadel and go hide elsewhere (i.e., Zeüm)? view post


posted 06 Sep 2005, 19:09 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Twayleph":1wg9p9ot]But it seems to me that allying with human nations isn't their only choice - not even their most likely. Based on the Consult's complete ignorance of the Dûnyain until very recently and to the context of the prologue, it seems that their reaction to War was to flee, not to ally with mankind's defenders. Why should their reaction this time around be any different? If the Consult besieges Ishuäl (or shows sign of wanting to besiege it), could they not simply flee that old citadel and go hide elsewhere (i.e., Zeüm)?[/quote:1wg9p9ot] About the Dunyain fleeing war. This ties in nicely with what I have been saying: they did so in order to preserve themselves and their mission. As to what they might do in the present/future . . . well, they're a lot stronger now than they were then, so to flee without fighting may not be an option. As to what Mith says, that if they are disturbed they'll go out with a collective suicide, this just won't happen. But to address your other point on them finding some other refuge, this too is possible, even probable maybe, but I also see individual Dunyain choosing/being ordered to offer their services in exchange for shelter. Then also, the whole point of moving from point A to point B would entangle them in events they might find a bit hard to resist themselves . . . :) view post


posted 06 Sep 2005, 19:09 by Mithfânion, Didact

White Lord, I feel the same way; I've tired of discussions with you as well. Your below the belt remarks and insinuations that I continue to ignore your oh so relevant observations are a major irritant. That being said, I feel similarly about the state of the board. Perhaps the two of us have simply resulted to cannibalism ;) Twayleph, They could flee, again, but somehow that strikes me as unlikely. And there's the added fact that this time around, two of their greatest prodigies are in the outisde world. I can't help but think either of them might want to involve the Dunyain in some way. And for another matter, should either Kellhus or Moenghus fall into the hands of the Consult, they might be forced to betray the Dunyain and thus draw them in. view post


posted 06 Sep 2005, 19:09 by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":1b6jq7ip]That being said, I feel similarly about the state of the board. Perhaps the two of us have simply resulted to cannibalism ;)[/quote:1b6jq7ip] Yes, I think you may be right . . . ;) And let's leave it at that. :) view post


posted 05 Nov 2005, 23:11 by shockwave, Candidate

The dunyain that received the dream could feel as if they had sorcery themselves. Moenghus contacting them through their own dreams, asking for his son to be sent, probably equals the possession of sorcery to them. Which they do not want; they strive for purity. It would therefor be in the interest of the 'breeding-program' and the dunyain themself, to remove themselves from the group. This radical 'cure' is only vial because this could mean inpurity for the dunyain. They are faced with what is in their eyes, an incredible taint. Hence they remove it. But facing magic when under attack from an opponent or when approached by the other various factions in the Three Seas that posses magic would not demand the same response. The magic is not present in them, but in the other. I think they will react and adopt to the situation similarly though not exactly like, Kellhus. In short: they need not kill themselves to remove this taint. They need to kill others. Alot of them, but if they will, who can tell. view post


posted 17 Jan 2006, 22:01 by Anonymous, Subdidact

DELETED view post


Dunyain posted 19 Jan 2006, 21:01 by Dexious, Candidate

I'm sorry, I don't have the books to refer to. I lent them out for my nephew to enjoy. I was under the impression that the Dunyain entered the temple to kill themselves when Kellhus left on his mission. Not knowing the content of the dream Moenghus sent, I assumed it in some way tainted their life. Maybe I metaphorically mis-read. It would seem odd for a society to off themselves over a dream when after the first apocolypse and the battle with the No-God they sought refuge in the secret castle of the Emperor Anasurimbor. Wouldn't that reality have tainted their life enough to have given up at that point instead of knocking on the gates of Ishual? view post


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