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Will Esmi Cause Mandati/Warrior-Prophet Drama? posted 28 Jun 2005, 19:06 by Hackhius, Commoner

What bearing will jealousy, loyalty, and devotion have on the relationship between Akka and Kellhus? Both men have claimed Esmi as their wife. Will Esmi..." 1>stay with Kellhus? 2>go back to Akka? 3>stay clear of both men to avoid any animosity? view post

posted 01 Jul 2005, 04:07 by saintjon, Auditor

She's with Kellhus all the way from here on out, I can't see thigns going any other way. Either that or she'll learn enough to be Awakened or whatever like Cnaiur, and seeing the mask and costume she left Akka for will be destitute and inconsolable... again. view post

posted 02 Jul 2005, 17:07 by Da-krul, Auditor

I don't think Akka will take her back even if she finds out just what Kellus really is. Akka changed alot from having Xin remind him Esement asked him to find him, allmost trying to guilt him becasue of the eyes. I mean if akka would spare Kellus becasue he could see skin spies dispite how much he hates him, I doubt he'll get over it to let esement come back too him. Unless they both find out just what Kellus is, but I can't really see that happening. view post

posted 05 Jul 2005, 15:07 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

She would have been dead if Kelhus hadn't taken her. Once Akka chews on that for a while (and the fact she thought he was gone) the possibility of reconciliation becomes very real. view post

posted 05 Jul 2005, 21:07 by Da-krul, Auditor

Akka would have no reasen to becasue Kellus saved her, at that point I belive they were still "friends" (As much as a friend you can be too a Dunyain) Friends help friends. Also thiers a diffrence between thought he was gone, and knowing he was dead. Xin had set out on a "recue mission" per say. So thier was some hope left. She choose (and was helped to choose by Kellus) to accept Akka was lost too her, and she turned to Kellus. Esmi is lost to Akka, a reconciliation is improbable unless both of them Discover what Kellus is. view post

posted 08 Jul 2005, 20:07 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

Do not forget Kelhus. If he needs Akka's help and he needs them to be back together to get it, he will arrange it. view post

posted 08 Jul 2005, 22:07 by Deerow, Auditor

This is true. In order to learn the Gnosis Kellhus will likely do anything it takes. view post

posted 08 Jul 2005, 23:07 by Da-krul, Auditor

I think Akka's changed since his capture by the Scarlet Spires, But I wonder if he'll change towards Kellus. I seem to remember in one of the latter chapters when Akka was traveling with Zin, thinking to himself allmost incredulously of the fact he was willing to teach Kellus the Gnosis. I think the fact Kellus was with Esi has hurt him more then helped. I think/hope the Gnosis is beyond his reach now. {As a note, since Seswatha "helped" akka by protecting the Gnosis against the scarlet spires, maybe Seswatha will protect the Gnosis from being taught to others?} view post

posted 09 Jul 2005, 06:07 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

Having just reread[i:2dtg1ow7] The Warrior Prophet[/i:2dtg1ow7], Akka has definitely changed, but teaching Kelhus is not out of the question. The Second Apocalypse is coming. Kelhus's presence has been fortolled. The Consult want Kelhus dead and there is spectacular proof of this. If there is anyone who the Mandate might consider the Gnosis outside their order, Kelhus is it. And we all know how persuasive Kelhus can be. view post

posted 09 Jul 2005, 14:07 by Deerow, Auditor

This is true. Whatever petty differences they have would be set aside if the Second Apocalypse is at hand. While the Mandate treasure the Gnosis above their own lives they do so with the intention of tracking down the Consult and preventing a Second Apocalypse. If the only way to prevent the Second Apocalypse is to trade the Gnosis they would have to do. What is the point of having the secret of the Gnosis if everyone is getting murdered by the No-God and his armies? view post

posted 09 Jul 2005, 14:07 by Da-krul, Auditor

Not much to rational men like us ;) But you forget, the mandate still don't know about Kellus. Only Akka does. This isn't the Mandate leaders holding a meeting to decide if Akka should teach him the Gnosis, or to discuss just what Kellus is. And we still havn't scene enough to find out if Kellus is just the sign of the 2nd apocalypse begining, or if he'll play a major part in it. Thiers still one more book for Kellus too die at his fathers hands, or words ;) view post

posted 09 Jul 2005, 15:07 by Deerow, Auditor

I meant those would be the thoughts running through Akka's mind. I don't know if he'll tell the Mandate at all...though I suppose they will find out somehow to keep things a bit more interesting. In Akka's mind he doesn't want to betray the Mandate as he feels he has no right to as they have kept their secrets for centuries, if not millenia. But furthermore Akka does not want a Second Apocalypse as he has had to relive the horrors of the first apocalypse every night (along with all his Mandati brothers) and he seems to believe firmly that Kellhus is the only person/thing that can prevent that from happening. Akka is going to have to weigh these things in his own mind. Which does he treasure more? Keeping the Gnosis a secret? Or potentially preventing the Second Apocalypse? Much like his decision of betraying Inrau or isn't one that is easy, yet at the same time there seems to be only one course of action: teach Kellhus the Gnosis. view post

posted 09 Jul 2005, 17:07 by White Lord, Subdidact

Isn't this discussion pretty much moot? After all, Scott has posted a brief synopsis for TTT, and it's stated clearly that Achamian [i:1qgi0jqt]will[/i:1qgi0jqt] teach Kellhus the Gnosis . . . view post

posted 09 Jul 2005, 23:07 by Da-krul, Auditor

Oh..... we'll thank you white lord for not coming 5 posts ago :P view post

posted 09 Jul 2005, 23:07 by Deerow, Auditor

Indeed. Like I said, those are going to be the things Akka is weighing in his head...ultimately he has no real choice though and he'll teach Kellhus the Gnosis. view post

posted 10 Jul 2005, 04:07 by Da-krul, Auditor

persoanly I wish he didn't :( But alas white lord has ruined my dreams :P view post

posted 10 Jul 2005, 05:07 by White Lord, Subdidact

:P :lol: 8) view post

Kellhus changes posted 18 Jul 2005, 17:07 by Tighe, Commoner

Everybody is talking about Akka's change...What about Kellhus? He actually showed emotion at the end of TWP, when he was bound to Serwe's corpse. It is possible now that he will (a) either actually love Esmenet, or (b) see that she and Akka actually love each other and abdicate in Akka's favor. I see this as a journey for Kellhus too, from being a manipulator who pretends to be a hero, to actually becoming that hero. view post

posted 25 Jul 2005, 21:07 by saintjon, Auditor

Well, what's the shortest distance for him? Feelings or no, he'll probably still live by the Logos cuz it's all he really knows how to do. I think if anything he'll be more protective and possibly more possessive of Esmenet. I dunno if that blurb says for 100% certain that he'll actually give up the Gnosis though. It just says he's compelled to, which although is a strong indicator doesn't necessarily mean he'll do it. I mean, take Caine from Heroes Die for instance. Circumstance compells that dude to do all kinds of stuff but he always does his thing anyways. view post

posted 30 Jul 2005, 19:07 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

I've been out of the country for a while now... so what Blurb? Please direct me to the TTT blurb! view post

posted 31 Jul 2005, 01:07 by Lucimay, Subdidact

yess yess whears the bluurb!???? i await direction as weel. view post

posted 31 Jul 2005, 02:07 by White Lord, Subdidact

Have you people never heard of the Search function on this board? :evil: :wink: [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3qpf4lal]Only Shimeh remains. The Padirajah has been slain, and the heathen Fanim have fled in disarray. One final march will bring the Holy War to the City of the Latter Prophet. But so very much has changed... Using godlike insight and ruthless deceit, Anasûrimbor Kellhus has conquered the hearts of all, including the harlot Esmenet, who now shares his bed. Only the barbarian, Cnaiür, and the sorcerer, Achamian, continue to hazard doubts. But where Cnaiür topples ever deeper into madness and wanton violence, Achamian is compelled to yield the secrets of the Gnosis. Not only must he protect the man who stole his wife, he must teach the most powerful sorcery known to the greatest intellect to ever walk the earth. And he fears what might happen... The final reckoning is at hand. Faceless assassin will strike in the dead of night. Kings and Emperors will fall. The sorcerous Schools will be unleashed. And Anasûrimbor Kellhus will at last confront his father and the dread revelation of the Thousandfold Thought.[/quote:3qpf4lal] view post

posted 31 Jul 2005, 03:07 by Lucimay, Subdidact

search? search? there's a search function?? :lol: at my own idiocy!! thanks WL! view post

posted 31 Jul 2005, 20:07 by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

Thanks for this... and no, I hadn't heard of the search function... view post

Things to do posted 27 Nov 2005, 06:11 by Anonymous, Subdidact

DELETED view post

posted 21 Aug 2006, 15:08 by alhana, Auditor

After reading half of TTT, I am beginning to take back all the nice things I said about Esmi previously. I wanted to believe that she was not the object of Bakker's female bashing and I still want to believe that she made the best choice when she chooses to stay with Kellhus, but I am also disappointed in her. Though she would have died if she had stayed outside of Kellhus' camp, she could have joined Kellhus and Serwe but NOT had sex with them. I know she is a whore and all, but where is the redemption? Even though she has risen in status as Kellhus' advisor/wife/mother of his future children, she continues to act the whore....never faithful. As a professional of human behavior, I tried to excuse her actions because of her own incestual upbringing and her wicked father and the on-going trauma of her life. But even then, I couldn't. I could say that she was simply a victim of a very powerful man (Kellhus seems to make everyone like him until they are enlightened) and many many people have been enticed by Kellhus' ammorality. But even as she begins to realize that Akka is not weak, that Kellhus' is just using her as he does with everyone, and that adornation and devotion are not the as as unconditional romantic love, she still stays with Kellhus instead of returning to Akka. I suppose that just like others, by the time she perceives Kellhus' true intentions, she can't leave. I still believe that Bakker is not bashing on women but rather Esmi is just one part of the story. She is a whore and she remains unfaithful because that is the role in the story she must play. Without weakness, we are not truly human and without our sins, there is no grace. I am hoping that in 20 years she redeems herself. view post

posted 21 Aug 2006, 18:08 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

How? Akka is out of her reach. view post

posted 21 Aug 2006, 19:08 by alhana, Auditor

I do not think her redemption will mean she can be Akka's wife. I know he is out of her reach, but there might be other actions she can take to make things right in the end. view post

posted 21 Aug 2006, 22:08 by Harrol, Moderator

Truthfully I do not see what Esmi needs to be redeemed from. She has done the best she can with what she has. Do not get me wrong I feel horrible that Akka has so far gotten the raw deal but ibelieve that will only make him strong enough to be a serious threat to the consult. Back to Esmi she is carrying Kellhus's child. That child will be very important in 20 years but to reach its potential the child will need Kelhus as a mentor not Akka. This is a fact that i believe Esmi is most aware of. view post

posted 22 Aug 2006, 16:08 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

[quote="alhana":2exuy4d4]I do not think her redemption will mean she can be Akka's wife. I know he is out of her reach, but there might be other actions she can take to make things right in the end.[/quote:2exuy4d4] Okay, so now my question is..."what do you mean by redemption? What would that entail? view post

posted 22 Aug 2006, 22:08 by alhana, Auditor

Maybe redemption was a poor choice of word.....perhaps resolution or "making peace with her mistake" would be a better way to describe what I meant. She clearly betrayed Akka's love, even when she thought he was dead, she wasted no time in finding a new lover. I want there to be closure between Esmi and Akka and there never can be. At the end of one's long life though many people "make peace" with their mistakes. Sometimes people die before they can work out what they would have or should have done differently. Though her betrayal certainly gave Akka nothing to lose and in the end prompted him to stand up to Kellhus, I still wanted Esmi to be a "better person" and not give up on the only man who truly loved her in all of her sorided life. I realize that this is not the kind of story that has a happy ending. :x *****Sorry!! I editted this when I realized I didn't give an answer for the "how" part of the last post.**** I don't know how one redeems oneself for their past mistakes. If I did, I would be a much richer therapist for sure. I believe that perhaps as she gives birth to her child and raises that child, she might be able to teach that child what true love is. I know this won't happen as that child, especially if it is a son, will be under the all encompassing influence of Kellhus. I hope that she can at least apologize to Akka somehow and maybe she already did that when she told him "You are not weak." Leaving Kellhus and going back to Akka is definately out of the question for many reasons. Perhaps she could even just admit that she loves both men....but it seems that both our culture and the world of the Three Seas does not accept the fact that a person can love two people at one time. I think that all three people involved...Kellhus, Esmi and Akka...all know that Esmi loves both men and that she cannot stop herself from doing so. I am not sure that she should do so either; however the more she denies her love for Akka the more it festers both in her mind and in her relationship with Kellhus. Now I am talking in circles for sure as loving two men really doesn't "redeem" a woman's infidelity. In the end, we can't take back our poor choices and maybe not regretting them is the best way to make peace with our past. But I suppose that only Bakker knows what path Esmi's life choices will take her next. view post

posted 24 Aug 2006, 04:08 by Harrol, Moderator

[quote:1pxto0hy]After reading half of TTT, I am beginning to take back all the nice things I said about Esmi previously. I wanted to believe that she was not the object of Bakker's female bashing and I still want to believe that she made the best choice when she chooses to stay with Kellhus, but I am also disappointed in her. [/quote:1pxto0hy] And here I thought Ikurei Istriya was the object of Scott's female bashing :wink: I do not think there is anything wrong with Esmi. I only wish that more people had her kind of strength to keep going on and doing what must be done. view post

posted 24 Aug 2006, 13:08 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

Okay, I thought Serwe was the focus point of any possible "female bashing". I mean, come on! Istriya was great; intelligent, beautiful, shrewd and hysterical in dialogue. Esmi's intelligent, beautiful, insightful, contemplative and very funny as well. What's Serwe? Beautiful? Yes Intelligent? No Shrewd? No Insightful? No Funny? No Contemplative? No I mean. She's the quintessential "dumb blond"! Esmi and Istryia don't come close. view post

posted 24 Aug 2006, 15:08 by alhana, Auditor

Isn't it funny how we can dialouge about people who aren't even real? :lol: Good points on both accounts, I suppose that when the three main female characters are stacked up against each other, Esmi does come across in a more positive light. Thanks, Mahajanga and Harrol the great insight! view post

posted 24 Aug 2006, 15:08 by Harrol, Moderator

We all realize that these characters are fake, but yet I have met people who in some fashion closely resemble Serwe a simple woman that wants some sort of importance and meaning in her life. I also know people like Esmi intelligent, a form of their own strength, but yet falible and all too human. I have met very few people that have the cunning coldness of Istiya and none that have all her qualities. view post

posted 24 Aug 2006, 16:08 by alhana, Auditor

Maybe that is why I want Esmi to be a better person; I see myself in her. I want to see her make better choices--to be strong enough to overcome her fears of aging and losing her beauty, to not sell herself short just because she start out her life common, to love her True Love (Akka) and not betray him, and to give her yet-born-child a good home despite the chaos around her--because I want to believe that I could make the best choices if I were in her place. She may not be a common slut, but in a sense she is still "selling herself" by staying with Kellhus. This time, her "custom" has purchased not only her body, but her soul and the life of her child for the price of prestige, a false sense of identity, and security. Even though Kellhus freed her from being a prostitute, he is using her none the less. She has power, but only as much power as Kellhus gives to her so she is still his "servant". Maybe even more, I want to believe that women can be faithful, that we can exercise self-control when it comes to sex. Sex is such a powerful tool and such an extravagant gift and when I see a female character like Esmi squander her "wealth", I fear the power and gift of all women is somehow less than it was before. The value of a good woman is cheapened because we (as a society) say, "Well no one is perfect, we all fail, we all lust, that is just the way it is." When women rely on men to tell them they are "good enough" or to define who they are by their sexual skill, then these women are not truly free. In the end, I want Esmi to be something more than a whore because I want all women to be something more than the object of a man's affection. I want Esmi to see herself for who she really is, not who the men in her life tell her she is. I want her to be free to love who she really wants to, not just run to the next strong man who will tell her she is worth something. I thought she had that until I began to realize that Kellhus was just the next guy to use her and that Akka loved her for the person she really was. view post

posted 24 Aug 2006, 19:08 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

Ironically, I think she has a better chance of reaching her Alhana-esque potential as the wife of Kellhus than she would have as the wife of Achamian. It's not because Akka doesn't see her as an equal - we know he does - but rather that Akka is/was still very much a world-born man. Customs, especially those we are born to, are EXTREMELY hard to see past. They define us... to a degree. Not only would Akka not likely have been proactive enough to teach Esmi to read, but she would never have asked. The tread of society is too well worn into each of them. It simply wouldn't have crossed either of their minds to go there unless circumstance absolutely required it. It would take someone virtually alien to 'society' to see beyond such customs to do... what can or should be done. Now that Esmi knows the truth of Kellhus, I think she will come to a place similar to that one you just described Alhana. It's almost inevitable. Kellhus's constant insight and promotion of the evovled psychological-self will have a greater affect on none more than Esmi... save her child perhaps. view post

posted 24 Aug 2006, 20:08 by Harrol, Moderator

That is some great insight Mahajanga I never really looked at it quite that way. view post

posted 24 Aug 2006, 21:08 by alhana, Auditor

While I agree that Akka was limited because he was "world born", maybe the other issue one all long-term couples face...they were both set in their ways. Not until they were separated that they realized things about each other that they had never questioned and it is not only their culture that limits them but their own routines. Akka never offered and Esmi never asked, but when Akka realized that Esmi could read, he reflected on that the fact that it never occurred to him that she wanted to learn. Likewise the issue of having a child, Esmi never offered and Akka never asked her to give up her womb to have his child, both of them assuming that their lives were too uncertain. How many modern couples after having loved each other and lost the other to ANOTHER, are awakened by how much they took the other person for granted? She says, "You never had that kind of passion for me" and He says, "You never honored me like you honor HIM". I am not ready to blame Akka's "world-born" origin for why he didn't appreciate Esmi or treat her differently. I think that they needed someone like Kellhus to challenge their very existence in order for them to see each other differently. Many couples do look at each other differently after an affair, after a forced separation, after a loss of a child/parent, or after a serious illness or near-death experience. You raise a good point about Esmi reaching a higher level of freedom as Kellhus' wife. I still fear that she will be limited in her status and just become another pawn in his plans. view post

posted 25 Aug 2006, 04:08 by Harrol, Moderator

[quote:2q3023mc]You raise a good point about Esmi reaching a higher level of freedom as Kellhus' wife. I still fear that she will be limited in her status and just become another pawn in his plans.[/quote:2q3023mc] That is true. A very useful and powerful chess piece but still just a piece on the board. What did Akka say? He stated that Kellhus can not be possessed but that he possesses. Kellhus can not help but make a tool of all. view post

posted 25 Aug 2006, 21:08 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

Not necessarily. Knowledge of the truth [of Kellhus] makes it impossible to be a pawn. She will instead be a willing accomplise (sp) because she believes in his purpose; just like he now does. He will explain the need to mislead the masses to her, and being the strong woman she is, she will not only understand but be better able to assist to that end. It's the WORLD that's at risk here. Remember that Esmi was the wife of a Mandate Schoolman for a time; she'll understand the concept of "necessary evil". view post

posted 26 Aug 2006, 03:08 by Harrol, Moderator

That is another good point. view post

posted 14 Dec 2006, 06:12 by Lucimay, Subdidact

[quote:3i96y3b1]Isn't it funny how we can dialouge about people who aren't even real? :lol: [/quote:3i96y3b1] [quote:3i96y3b1]We all realize that these characters are fake[/quote:3i96y3b1] how are they "not real" or "fake"? oh. you mean they don't live in bodies? so...if you don't inhabit a body you're not real? oh. wait. you mean they are "constructions" of the author., persona, character. if the author, who lives in a body, uses a persona to create a character, isn't the character real? gotta get nit-picky here cause i think they (the characters) are worth talking about, in a real sense. :lol: not being a smartypants...just validating the conversation as a real conversation about real things. :wink: don't forget, when you're talking about them, that they all have purpose. character function. if you want to know what Esmi is going to do...figure out what her character function is. who is she? how does who she is serve the story? view post

posted 14 Dec 2006, 13:12 by Harrol, Moderator

That is a good perspective lucimay. By the way welcome back it has been a long time. view post

posted 18 Dec 2006, 16:12 by Lucimay, Subdidact

thanks's it goin? looks like you guys got hit with some spamatazoa action! urg! you know what...i haven't been around because of school reading lists as long as your arm, last semester it was myth in literature and this semester (which is over but turning in my last 3 papers) was two lit classes with the same professor with TWO reading lists as long as your arm....everything from dostoevsky to confederacy of dunces in one class (including some de Beauvoir, Neitzsche, and Camus) and the other one was detective fiction so that was fun... so i GOT TTT when it came out, BUT I STILL HAVEN'T READ IT!!! arrrgh! i will get to read it over this break between semesters hopefully. anyhow...thanks for the welcome back. :wink: view post

posted 06 Jan 2007, 01:01 by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

just jumping back to what Alhana said, about wanting Esmi to be a better person, i don't necessarily think Esmi is to blame...I mean, Kellhus [i:2c4rlrai]posesses[/i:2c4rlrai] one was outside his reach, with the exception of Cnaiur (fueled by thirty years of shame turned hate) and with achamian, who's deep sense of loss and betrayal combined with his scepticism allows him to believe what Cnaiur tells him of Kellhus and the Dunyain. Also, another thing Alhana mentioned a bit later on, about the flaws within the relationship between Achamian and Esmenet, I think that is what truly makes a relationship. It's not the perfect moments; she has enough of those with Kellhus, and they end up amounting to Worship, because Kellhus will never feel as she feels for him, will never be hers eye to eye. She will always feel les than him, and [i:2c4rlrai]knows[/i:2c4rlrai], beyond a doubt (regardless whether this is true or not) that she [i:2c4rlrai]is[/i:2c4rlrai] less than Kellhus. It's true that there is meaning within the mistakes in their relationship, but it's an imperfect reason for staying with Kellhus, and I think by the time we see AE, we will see an old, embittered Esmenet. I think the way their relationship was so flawed, was why it was real, and you coulndt take any flaws out of it without making it some construct. view post

posted 08 Jan 2007, 13:01 by Harrol, Moderator

Your statements on Esmi are correct even though her out come in AE is up for debate. Yet for all of Akka and Cnauir's resistence Kellhus still found ways to make tools of them. True he could not posses them but he did manipulate them. view post


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