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Was Cnauir gay? posted 10 Dec 2005, 06:12 by butlersr, Candidate

Well, was he? view post


posted 10 Dec 2005, 20:12 by Nauticus, Auditor

Who cares? view post


posted 11 Dec 2005, 04:12 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

He was manipulated into it by a Dunyain...I don't whether you could clearly define whether he IS or not really. I think a dunyain could talk his way into anybody's pants if it suited his aims. view post


posted 11 Dec 2005, 04:12 by Egaragoras, Candidate

Cnauir was gay? OMG I hate the PON now! Yeah, just cause Bakker didn't put a billboard up saying "Cnauir was seduced by Moengus" doesn't mean that he didn't fairly clearly suggest to the reader that he was. You could, however, read it so that it was just a platonic relationship between the two, which was mistaken for a homosexual relationship by the other members of the clan, if you wanted to. Bakker probably left it open on purpose. view post


posted 11 Dec 2005, 04:12 by Aldarion, Sorcerer-of-Rank

*whistles innocently* More in TTT. view post


posted 11 Dec 2005, 07:12 by Nauticus, Auditor

[quote="Anonymous":36pz8awl]an odd answer. I care because to me it's as clear as can be that he is. I see it explained and related over and over throughout the two novels; And yet when I mentioned it in a previous post people seemed really taken aback like it was from out of nowhere. Not to mention if he's not gay, then that changes my understanding of the entire dynamic of his character, Kellhus, and Kellhus's father. It also changes my understanding of his motivations as well as the nature of the incredible internal struggle he grapples with through the two novels. So there's my question. Does it offend your tender sensibilities?[/quote:36pz8awl] I'm gay, so no. I was not offended. But why does it matter? Bakker's characters in this series are clearly a lot more detailed that 'gay' or 'straight'. You place too much emphasis on sexual orientation. You were even accusing Bakker of homosexuality earlier. view post


... posted 11 Dec 2005, 13:12 by StegoKing, Candidate

Cnauir has sex with people of both sexes, so I'd say it's more fair to cal him bisexual. view post


posted 11 Dec 2005, 23:12 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Personally for me it's a non-issue. Cnaiur is Cnaiur, that goes for all the characters. As was said, I think, espeically in Cnaiur's case, things go a little beyond a clear cut straight/gay definition, at least from the two books thus far. Since someone has pointed out there is more detail in TTT I shall wait until then. view post


posted 12 Dec 2005, 00:12 by butlersr, Candidate

It's just that I interpreted the bulk of Cnauir's internal struggle as having to do with feeling attracted to Kellhus through mixing up feelings for his father. And I do think it's important to understand some of the reasons why "his prize" (aka his "proof") is so important to him. In my opinion she's his beard. I mean he's definitely the most conflicted character in the novels. I think that sexual confusion would account for that conflict based on the information given. But many other people seem to think sexual confusion to be doubtfull in his case or if it is recognized, just a smaller internal conflict. I'm saying it is [i:34fqslwa]the [/i:34fqslwa]conflict and the reason why Cnauir does almost everything he does. And being secretly gay in not an accusation. No crime or charge. It's just that whatever's repressed inside you will alway leak out here and there. Nothing causes one to spring sudden leaks like a novel. If someone can help me to account to the amount of homoeroticism dripping off the pages I'd be happy to withdraw the idea completely. But what I see is not just the recognition of homoeroticism in many of the character's dynamics, I see an emphasis on it as if it is of particular interest to the author. It's not like it matters if the author is gay or not. It's just that what I've noticed is unusual and I'm wondering about what could account for it. view post


posted 12 Dec 2005, 00:12 by Nauticus, Auditor

But Cnaiur is emotionally confused as a whole. Why boil it down to sexual orientation? view post


posted 12 Dec 2005, 17:12 by Harrol, Moderator

I think the real betrayal that Cnauir feels is due to the fact Moengus provided something that was lacking in his life. Moengus show Cnauir genuine interest. We know that it was fake interest but to Cnauir it was genuine. Then Moengus showed Cnauir that he truly understood him. I do not believe that those were things Cnauir was accustomed to so like a man starving he jumped on those interests showed him and gained a strong emotional attachment towards the one that showed them to him. Cnauir has showed that sex has little emotional meaning to him so whether or not he had sex with Cnauir is really inconsequential to the fact of the emotional betrayal. Let us also look at the fact that Cnauir laments the death of his mother because Moengus impregnated her. Cnauir axe to grind with Moengus I believe covers many things. view post


posted 13 Dec 2005, 02:12 by Harrol, Moderator

I am not saying that he is not gay. I am just saying that that is not the prime mover to his motivation. I believe he had a relationship with Moengus but my question is does he continue to seek out those relationships. Is that what he is after now? view post


posted 13 Dec 2005, 02:12 by kansasbarbarian, Commoner

I personally don't think Cnaiur is gay I think he just wished Moengus was his father because of the interest he took in him. Seduction doesn't always lead to sexual relations. He seduced him from the typical Scylvendi way of life. He opened his mind to more knoweledge than Cnaiur would have had if Moengus had not been there. Cnaiur knew he was different from the rest of his tribe because he had more knowledge than any one there besides Moengus. How do you think he was able to resist Kellhus when everyone else succumbed? The reason that Serwe is his proof is from all the remarks and looks he was given by his people and his mothers guilt at having children by Moengus, and his guilt over his father because he told Moengus he wanted the white yaksh and that lead to his fathers murder. We know he is the most violent of all men as a way to be the best Scylvendi warrior in his own eyes even when his people still don't give him the respect he feels he deserves, so if he can't have their respect he will have their fear. Any way remember his reaction at the term faggot. He killed his uncle not because he was a faggot but because of shock of that was what his tribe thought. This is just my thoughts because he is a complex incredible character. If he dies in TTT he desrves a memorable way of Death as befits the most violent of all men, not as a faggot weeper. In any case if they had sex Moengus was achild molester as Cnaiur was still a kid. view post


posted 13 Dec 2005, 02:12 by Harrol, Moderator

Kansas that is agood point. I believe that is his prime motivation for what he is doing. view post


.... posted 13 Dec 2005, 06:12 by StegoKing, Candidate

ahhh..... Kansas, no. He most certainly is gay. (or most certainly is bisexual at least) view post


posted 13 Dec 2005, 08:12 by Nauticus, Auditor

He had sex with the ground. He literally screwed anything. But I do not think he was gay. view post


posted 13 Dec 2005, 15:12 by RedShift, Candidate

I didn't think Cnaiur was gay. I thought the whole [i:ofjpp5xe]point[/i:ofjpp5xe] of his rage when he gets called "faggot" was because he [i:ofjpp5xe]didn't[/i:ofjpp5xe] actually sleep with Moenghus, but I'm not sure about that. view post


posted 13 Dec 2005, 18:12 by Scilvenas, Auditor

I was thinking along the same lines as kansasbarbarian. I don't remember anywhere in the books it said Cnaur and Moenghus had sex (and the fact that he was shocked anyone would think so leads me to believe they didn't... not to mention Scott doesn't seem very hesitant to describe sexual details). I wouldn't rule it out, but I also wouldn't count it as conclusive evidence he's gay (not that there's anything wrong with that) even if he did. I mean, a woman can have a fling with another woman, but if it's a one time thing, people don't usually consider her a lesbian. Besides, anything physical between the two would be the least important dynamic between them, I think. There's no doubt that Cnaur loved Moenghus, I just don't think he did in that way. Defining it in any particular kind of way would probably be too simple. More of a homo crush, if anything. He certainly couldn't have felt anything similar to what he did for his main wife, even if the one was greater. In short, I seriously don't believe he's gay in the way [i:owf414pw]we[/i:owf414pw] think of it. view post


posted 14 Dec 2005, 06:12 by Aldarion, Sorcerer-of-Rank

Fine, because it's already been said here by another that's read TTT: Yes, Cnaiür and Moënghus were lovers. It's [i:qo4l8ai0]quite[/i:qo4l8ai0] explicit before the book is over that the two fucked each other. The only uncertainity is whether or not Cnaiür screwed other men. Then again that Rob Halford-esque moniker of Breaker of Horses and Men kinda has a different meaning now, huh? ;) But on a much more serious point - how does Cnaiür identify himself? While sexual identity is important, especially in this time and age, I seriously doubt it's THE defining issue of what cosntitutes a person. Too bad Scott's on vacation - it'd be fun to see what his take would be on this, because I can't help but think of how Michel Foucault defined himself in relation to his homosexual relations. view post


posted 14 Dec 2005, 11:12 by zarathustra, Peralogue

For me its still kind of ambigous even at the end of TTT. But I can still make a couple of points without plot spoilers. At the end of the warrior prophet Cnauir says that he will do anything to kill Moenghus even kneel under hot seed. Conphas provokes the Scylvendi by buggering their captives in view of their army. I remember that Bible scholars interepreting the prohibition against homosexuality as rather against the raping of prisoners of war. I would say that Cnauir's sexual identity is tied to violence and domination whether it is men or women. As they say he is deffinately a giver rather than a reciever. I really hope my internet usage is not being monitored! view post


... posted 14 Dec 2005, 17:12 by StegoKing, Candidate

It's not ambiguous at the end of TTT at all....... homeboy is gay. view post


posted 14 Dec 2005, 18:12 by Twayleph, Auditor

StegoKing, please refrain from giving TTT spoilers..for those who are waiting impatiently for it and want to keep the element of surprise, it's very frustrating. Even though it may not seem like a big spoiler to you, it can be important to other people. view post


posted 14 Dec 2005, 21:12 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Was just going to say the same thing and saw Twayleph beat me to it, The book hasn't been released so giving anything thats spoilerish is really just... well it's poor form folks on a message board. Especially with no Spoiler warning/buffer things. :) Thanks in advance folks, some of us weren't lucky enough to get our hands on ARC's. view post


posted 14 Dec 2005, 22:12 by Aldarion, Sorcerer-of-Rank

I can't help but wonder if it's 'poor form' to basically cite things from the synopsis, considering that just only sums up the first two books ;) Make of that statement what you will - as it applies to something else that's been argued quite fiercely around here for over a year. :twisted: view post


posted 15 Dec 2005, 00:12 by Nauticus, Auditor

Hah Valid point. I suppose it depends on the subject matter of the synopsis. view post


... posted 15 Dec 2005, 04:12 by StegoKing, Candidate

I think it's quite obvious from the first two volumes of the Prince of Nothing that Cnauir is gay. As such, it's hardly a spoiler, though I apologize if you read it as such. I suggest you reread the first two books if you doubt this fact in the slightest.... you're probably missing a lot if you didn't pick up on that tidbit. I was a bit perterbed by the frothing homophobia in this thread and was railing against it. "Cnauir is too fuckin cool to be a fagg0t!!!!!11111" view post


Re: ... posted 15 Dec 2005, 07:12 by Nauticus, Auditor

[quote="StegoKing":2flcevvj]I think it's quite obvious from the first two volumes of the Prince of Nothing that Cnauir is gay. As such, it's hardly a spoiler, though I apologize if you read it as such. I suggest you reread the first two books if you doubt this fact in the slightest.... you're probably missing a lot if you didn't pick up on that tidbit. I was a bit perterbed by the frothing homophobia in this thread and was railing against it. "Cnauir is too fuckin cool to be a fagg0t!!!!!11111"[/quote:2flcevvj] Well, I honestly didn't think of Cnaiur as gay. But I certainly re-read the first two volumes with this in mind. view post


posted 15 Dec 2005, 15:12 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I never missed the implications of the first two novels that he may/may not be. I simply stated previously that his sexual orientation really isn't a big deal to me. :) As others have said I think Cnaiur is far too complicated to simply be labelled according to sexual orientation, I also think the situation is more complex as well. I don't really recall seeing many homophobic reactions...I for one could care less which way Cnaiur likes to swing the bat. :) view post


posted 15 Dec 2005, 19:12 by Aldarion, Sorcerer-of-Rank

I believe the 'homophobe' part deals with the person who posted this - just go to the TWP section and see a post he made there recently. And Scott and his wife will just [i:1jxfd86e]love[/i:1jxfd86e] to learn that he's now been labelled as 'gay' by this one person that seems to have a gay fixation. :roll: view post


I started all this.. posted 17 Dec 2005, 22:12 by butlersr, Candidate

And I'd like to first say that you all should thank me. The sheer amount of time that we have all devoted to proving our views of whether Cnaiur is gay or not suggest one thing - it's ambiguous. Which means that it's something our beloved author is saving for the final book. I have little to know doubt that we will know then. And I myself am quite certain that Cnaiur is gay. And when the book comes out I would like some appologies about all the railing you have all done against me both in this topic and in others for suggesting otherwise. And in return I give an apology. Making judgements on the author is something I'd like to retract. Many of you have raised my hackles by suggesting very simplistic and idiotic reasons and basis why I have made these judgements. But I realized that I would spend pages and pages defending them and for what? I'd get into defending my [i:2ozm8y0v]reasons [/i:2ozm8y0v]for making the judgements instead of the judgements themselves. Basically trying to prove that I'm not an idiot for suggesting something controversial. That would be an empty and hard-earned victory. I would like to alter my thought somewhat. In most literature, for someone to be overtly homoerotic (as I say Bakker has been in these books, I'll not take time defending that claim because it will force me to re-read the two books only to dictate certain passages, fuck that) it would almost always suggest a specific interest in homoeroticism. That's held pretty true in the past - should it need to be that way? No, people should be able to present homoeroticism without having interest in it themselves - but it just hasn't happened often in literature. So when I saw the homoeroticism so strong in these novels I thought something to be up. There's another more interesting possibility here - being that Bakker is not interested particularly in homoeroticism himself - but very interested in its use as a plot/character dynamic. I would say genious then! It is an interesting dynamic! It provides all sorts of depth and drama and controvery and questions and it's also well suited for the time we live in where sexual preference is being seen on a spectrum as opposed to being absolute. If he intentionally did that to thicken the characters and the plot then I would be even more impressed. As far as Kellhus being his idealized self and Cnauir being his doppleganger: ok, ok - I withdraw it! The response against that has been so strong I must be forced to reconsider. But it sure did give us all something to talk about didn't it? ;) Don't worry though - I'll have a fresh batch of bullshit after reading the next one. And if it turns out our boy is gay I'm going to re-read all those posts railing against the audacity of my suggestion that he could have been and reply to all of them one by one having a nice glass of wine while doing it. view post


posted 18 Dec 2005, 06:12 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Im gonna have to go with what the guest idiot said [quote:2g5avxs6]He also had sex with the ground. Does that make him tri-sexual? Can you screw a planet?[/quote:2g5avxs6] Having sexual relations with a man does not make you gay, having sex with a woman does not make you straight, and so on. Its like saying having sex with no one makes you no sexual or a non sexual. Also i find it quite odd that Cnauir's sexuality comes up so often in other posts as well. view post


posted 19 Dec 2005, 00:12 by Nauticus, Auditor

[quote="Warrior-Poet":krucczbo]Im gonna have to go with what the guest idiot said [quote:krucczbo]He also had sex with the ground. Does that make him tri-sexual? Can you screw a planet?[/quote:krucczbo] Having sexual relations with a man does not make you gay, having sex with a woman does not make you straight, and so on. Its like saying having sex with no one makes you no sexual or a non sexual. Also i find it quite odd that Cnauir's sexuality comes up so often in other posts as well.[/quote:krucczbo] I think the guest was stating the same thing as you - just because he made holes in the ground with his knife and lusted in those holes, that doesn't make him tri-sexual. view post


posted 19 Dec 2005, 02:12 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I wouldn't classify the Prince of Nothing as a series as being purposefully homoerotic, instead it is trying to be an honest and real portrayel of a world that is somewhat equivalent to the middle ages. The world was dark and brutal, women were downtrodden with few opportunities, etc. Despite what many people would like to believe sex between men wasn't exactly that uncommon during the middle ages, it just wasn't something, that for most of history, was openly accepted. (There are of course periods where it was accepted, at least in some forms, and many others where a blind eye was simply turned to it.) Most epic fantasy has ignored parts of the world like this, most stick to a "polished" view of our history to emulate in their novels. Bakker's doesn't. The Prince of Nothing puts it there for you to read, in my it is a more honest interpretation of the times it is modeled on than most others. I'm not saying there isn't homoeroticism, there definitly is. My point is that I don't think it is a deliberate "let's put all this homoerotic imagery in here" type of thing. It's there because thats real, and that's life. For me, to be honest, it is something that I pick up on and observe but I don't really think about it. Call me open minded and liberated but homoerotic imagery in a novel doesn't really register any flags when I'm reading any more than heteroerotic imagery does. So once again I congratulate Bakker for his writing, the setting he has given to us, and the enjoyment I get from the novels. view post


posted 19 Dec 2005, 02:12 by Artful, Candidate

[quote="Anonymous":eub0zhxh]I think it was all spelled out quite clearly when it was said about Cnaiur that he "desires illicit congress". gee, what could that mean?[/quote:eub0zhxh] That was with his wife. I imagine there's quite a few people who enjoy "illicit congress" with their wives and girlfriend who aren't gay. :P view post


posted 20 Dec 2005, 03:12 by butlersr, Candidate

Well said, Entropic_existence. I think you nailed it. Think of all the pages we could have saved if you wrote that first :) I like that thought - that we're stuck in this time and culture where we're more sensitive to homoerotic themes. It's been so repressed for the last few hundred years. And now it's back and we're like "there it is, there it is, oh look over there..." and so on. Or at least I was. much thought to follow and it's funny - because it kindof takes the interest out of whether this or that character was gay. everybody's gay - nobody's gay. it wasn't a thing you were like it is now. it happens to you - then it doesn't - then maybe it happens again. but I still think that most of Cnauir's anger/rage comes from being so sexually conflicted. thanks for the insight view post


posted 20 Dec 2005, 09:12 by Nauticus, Auditor

[quote="butlersr":m6wlh3oe] but I still think that most of Cnauir's anger/rage comes from being so sexually conflicted. [/quote:m6wlh3oe] Wouldn't it be more realistic that his sexual conflict comes from his anger/rage? view post


posted 21 Dec 2005, 01:12 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I think they both go hand in hand, but asking which came from which is like asking the chicken and the egg question I think, at least with the information we have. After all if he did have a sexual relationship with Moenghus I still stna d by my argument that he was seduced by a Dunyain. I'm pretty sure a Dunyain could talk their way into almost anyone's pants if they wanted to, male or female. Cnaiur is sexually conflicted, violent, angry, and seeking to continously make himself into a "true man" in the eyes of his people. view post


posted 21 Dec 2005, 07:12 by Aldarion, Sorcerer-of-Rank

Or he's a slighly more deranged version of Achilles. I seem to recall having a discussion on this issue with Scott when I first interviewed him in June 2004. I'll have to consult my notes on this. view post


posted 21 Dec 2005, 13:12 by butlersr, Candidate

anger and its more extreme form rage are secondary emotions. they don't produce other emotions, feelings, or states of mind generally- they are products -normally of fear. i think in Cnauir's case that definition would fit well. view post


posted 21 Dec 2005, 20:12 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yea Aldarion, Cnaiur definitly does fit an Achilles character, the exception being the sexuality really wasn't an issue with Achilles. It was pretty much socially accepted in the Greek warrior castes for men to take male lovers, especially when on campaign. The Scylvendi on the other hand have quite different opinions on the subject. :) view post


posted 21 Dec 2005, 20:12 by Aldarion, Sorcerer-of-Rank

Here is an excerpt from the interview that I did with Scott in June 2004 at [url:3avjtrqp]http://www.wotmania.net/fantasymessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=98054[/url:3avjtrqp]: [b:3avjtrqp]As I was reading this, I couldn't help but think that the Scylvendi chieftain, Cnaiür, would fit excellently as a badass who is a badass not because he resembles other badasses of his time and place, but even more so because he feels compelled to break with tradition to forge his own path. Did you have in mind this exploding of the badass character myth when you created Cnaiür?[/b:3avjtrqp] I'm glad you've mentioned Cnaiür. He is indeed the battleground for this question. I remember reading somewhere that 19th Century literary scholars had a difficult time dealing with Homer's Achilles, primarily because of the way he weeps to his mother after Agamemnon seizes his concubine. Here's Achilles, the most martial of all men, crying like a baby... How could this be? But this is the thing: our present concept of what it means to be a 'man' is largely a historical artefact - and a very troubling one at that. Think of all the terms we use to impeach someone's manliness: pansy, bitch, queer, fag, girly-boy, pommy pufter, and so on. Almost all of them are accusations of femininity, which would suggest that the worst thing for a man to be is... a woman! Which is to say, soft, weak, passive, and emotional... Huh? This, I think, is an absurd and destructive way for men to value themselves. Strength is found by owning and understanding one's weaknesses, not by displacing and denying them. Think of all the supposed badass warriors out there, checking people in at hotels, clearing tables, posturing in front of mirrors, bragging to sceptical significant others about how lucky so-and-so is because... We live in strange times. view post


posted 23 Dec 2005, 13:12 by butlersr, Candidate

that's really great. so is Cnauir the "true-badass", or is he an example of the problem of being a badass in a society that values machismo - or is he an example of what can happen to a man in general when living in a society that values machismo? it provided some insight, but just lead me to more questions. What's clear is that Cnaiur is incredibly conflicted with the man he is and the man he senses he's expected to be. And that leads him to all of the excesses of manliness (extreme violence, machismo, stoicism, anger, withdrawl, sexual aggression, massogeny, etc) view post


posted 31 Dec 2005, 20:12 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

I just gotta say... You know, even the best trained therapists in the world have a hard time puzzling out personalities with extended [i:2tf8k5d6]real time[/i:2tf8k5d6] Q&A. This is why I've always found readers' attempts to guess 'personal truths' from an authors' work hilarious in direct proportion to how seriously they take their pet theories. Being enigmatic is part of my job. :wink: view post


posted 01 Jan 2006, 01:01 by Aldarion, Sorcerer-of-Rank

Translation: You ain't gay :P view post


posted 22 Feb 2006, 10:02 by Cu Roi, Candidate

I realize this in a now ancient thread, but I wanted to say thankyou for pointing out the Achilles connection. I was about to scream. Many of the worlds conquerors, real and fictional, where bi-sexuals. It makes sense. Conquerors break through bounderies and impose their own will on others. They follow a trackless steppe. It's about control. Just like rape. I'm surprised no one mentioned Conphas and his tender night with Cnaiur. It's also interesting that machismo excludes interest in scholarly pursuits. Since Cnaiur is inherently a critical thinker I think he was set apart from the mainstream Scylvendi before Moenghus arrived. Moenghus simply used this initial distance to draw the child in. Set himself up as a mentor and father figure, seduced the child and used him to murder the child's father. How could he not be conflicted. Cnaiur is one of many great characters in this series. Incredibly complex and generally unfathomable because of his madness. The fact is he did have sex with men, women, & skin spies. He had no boundries except his desire. Which was a tempest. He was a rapist, and a murderer. He really was the most violent of men. I love him. view post


posted 22 Feb 2006, 20:02 by Linnea, Candidate

Well I haven`t read tTT yet so I can`t comment on Cnaiur`s behavior in it or his "tender night" with Conphas (though I believe there is some discussion about it on the asoiafboard,mostly about wether Conphas`reaction is believable or not ,wich I suppose is also interesting when it comes to discussing readers reaction to [male] rape as opposed to the in fantasy more commonly depicted rape of women) but I do feel that Scott choosing to make Cnaiur gay helped me in connecting with the character.So much of Cnaiur`s nature is alien to me, and reading the pov of a rapist actually musing on his rapes and that without mentioning childmurder,abuse and all the other things Cnaiur passes the time with,is sometimes close to being too much. The fact that he is in a sense a victim himself both to Moenghus but more importantly (I think),to the culture he was raised in and the values of that culture "offsets" some that. I suppose that it`s part of what the PoN is all about, how permissive a given society is to those who diverge in some way. It was quite surprising to me when I first read this thread that so many had read Cnaiur as straight though.Rereading the books I can see that it isn´t so clear and it makes me wonder why I just assumed that he was gay and that,indeed, he and Moenghus did have sex. I would like to say it`s my amazing perceptivness to subtle clues or because I´m just so in tune with Scott`s mind but then I also thought that Cnaiur and Khellus would have sex on that beach or Cnaiur and Proyas or... Well,a lot of things that didn`t happen.(Maybe I should stop visiting all those slash pages :? ) I wonder if being a woman makes me more prone to that kind of interpetration?Considering that "masculinity" is not such an important concept to me(thinking about the Achilleu`s problem mentioned above)or perhaps I´m the only woman to think this way :shock: . Come to think of it,it might be interesting to find out why all those slash sites are mostly made by women. :? And now I think I`ll just go off by myself and come up with something deeper to post about the perception of masculinity in our culture as opposed to among the ancient greek,hopefully I will be back... [/i] view post


posted 28 Feb 2006, 13:02 by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

What are 'slash sites,' Linnea? view post


posted 28 Feb 2006, 14:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Slash sites are fanfic sites where people write essentially gay porn involving male characters from TV/Movies/Books. I only know this because I know a few people who seem to enjoy it, personally I find it a little distastful... not because it is man on man or anything like that, just it seems such a twisting of an authors work. For instance there is ALOT of this stuff based on characters from Harry Potter, those characters are all children and so it is tantamount to child pornography. I'm happy to pretty much ignore it, to each their own and all that. But something about it just doesn't sit well with me. view post


posted 28 Feb 2006, 20:02 by Linnea, Candidate

Yes exactly,I think of it as a cross between ordinary fanfiction and verbal porn(though I suppose that not all of it is really porn).It`s funny you should mention Harry potter because that`s how I first became aware of it in the first place.It was a link from the asoiafboard I think. Before that I didn`t even know what fanfiction was,and I still find it a bit strange and sometimes (as in the aforementioned use of child characters) creepy. What makes me wonder about it is that all of it seems to be written by women.I mean,if it`s basically porn written by women for women why is it about men? I just seem to have an unhealthy fascination with finding out why,when for perhaps the first time, sexual fantasies are expressed by women in a female-dominated environment, so many of those fantasies seem to involve combing through novels/TV-shows/etc. looking for clues to male-on-male attraction. I did read an interesting article about the expression of female sexuality in Japanese litterature that mentioned how many romances targeted towards adolescent girls feature romance between men. It made me think that perhaps it`s comparable to the infamous "rape-fantasy" that some critics feel springs from the desire of some, often young, girls to "absolve" themselves of feeling sexual desire,since many societies seem to see it as the mark of a whore. Only I don`t know what removing women from the equation would mean.No competition?No judgement of female attraction or behavior?The opportunity to see two hot men make out before a woman shows up to fix the shower?Who knows?I probably shouldn`t even be reading this. In fact,I`m going to find help for this,yes,that`s what I`ll do.I`ll find help and when I come back I will be a shiny new poster,without these strange impulses,I have to go now... view post


posted 28 Feb 2006, 21:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Over on Fark.com I was in a discussion thread where there was a woman who was actually studying slash and it's related "subculture" for her undergraduate honours thesis. But I nothing about her actual research was being discussed. Fanfiction itself is ok, just an attempt by fans to extend the universe they love and write stories set in it. Most of the sexual oriented fanfic I find a little strange no matter the genders of the characters involved, because it usually is so out of place of the story. One could argue with certain worlds and stories that it does fit but like you I wonder at the why of it all. Like you said it appears to be a predominantly female subculture. Women writing for other women about male characters getting it on. Like I said the Harry Potter one seems to be one of the more popular I have heard of, the bordering on pedophilia nature of that bothers me more than anything. view post


posted 28 Feb 2006, 23:02 by Linnea, Candidate

Hi Entropic Existence, I feel the same way.Normally I`m all for expressing yourself and I try not to be judgmental just because I don`t like something, but involving children (even fictional children)in an erotic context is too much for me. I feel it crosses the line between private fun and well,something else. So people actually study fanfiction?I know that it`s usually considered to be silly, even embarrassing but it says quite alot about at least some readers. At first I found the notion of writing about someone elses characters or world to be almost "wrong" and certainly strange because when I think about, for example,the people in the PoN I think about them as existing through Scott,being made "real" by his mind if that makes any sense,and suddenly,they are being made real by the mind of others! I´m probably overanalyzing but I sometimes feel that a piece of writing is something that is made up half of the writer and half of the reader,that it is eerm,"created"again when someone reads it,only not in the same shape. So,in fanfiction I´m looking at some other readers "shape"and maybe instead of one writer and one reader it`s now one writer and two readers in the conversation, or two writers and one reader, I`m confused... And it`s probably even more weird if you`r the writer. Fanfiction seems like a parallel universe,filled with a lot of could have and should have and would have...And flamewars about character interpretations and how there always seems to be some evidence for why character X is character Y`s true love nevermind that they kill each other in the original and so on. view post


posted 03 Sep 2006, 15:09 by Krijates Iryssas, Candidate

On Harry Potter fanfics : you realize that a lot of people write fanfics about adult characters of the novels? Such as Severus Snape, Remus Lupin, Sirius Black etc. Of course there's [i:hv986yzq]also [/i:hv986yzq]the teenage/children porn... nevermind. Studying fanfics : Henry Jenkins has at least published several books on the subject. Fandom dynamics in general is starting to be a subject of social study. I reccomend the LJ communities metafandom and fanthropology for more amteurish outlook to the questions people ask about fandom. On Cnaiur : I can't believe anyone didn't realize he was gayer than a tree full of monkeys on nitreous oxyde from the first book ! That's the whole point of Cnaiur. Overinterpretation of clue would be reading a homosexual relationship between Anchamian and Inrau (which I wondered about but then we had no more clues, so I assume I was reading too much into it) Cnaiur's homosexuality is as canon as you can get. It's even more obvious than Renly and Loras. view post


posted 05 Sep 2006, 01:09 by Harrol, Moderator

Well Krijates Iryssas your perceptions are much greater than mine. It was not until the third book that I knew Cnauir was gay/bisexual. view post


posted 05 Sep 2006, 02:09 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Really? view post


posted 05 Sep 2006, 05:09 by Krijates Iryssas, Candidate

[quote="Harrol":2a05p7co]Well Krijates Iryssas your perceptions are much greater than mine. It was not until the third book that I knew Cnauir was gay/bisexual.[/quote:2a05p7co] I'll need to re-read the first book to check out what lines exactly made me so certain of it... Lots of people are just not likely to even think of the idea of romantical relationship between samesex people, especially not in a very tough-and-macho fantasy series ;) However when you're used to slash and to all the queer-friendly sf/f books it's easier to notice? I don't know. view post


posted 05 Sep 2006, 08:09 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

It's pretty clear in The Darkness That Comes Before, the Cnauir had a homosexual relationship with Moenghus. Scott doesn't directly state it, but the contextual evidence is strong including the "Is it a sin for me to touch you thus?" line on page 369 (I'm rereading the book and just past that part). view post


posted 05 Sep 2006, 20:09 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

I totally didn't take that line to mean anything sexual! I took it as the slave's crossing of a definitive line. Even after Serwe screamed at Cnaiur that Kellhus told her that Cnauir f****ked Moenghus, I took it to be a mis-type. I thought Scott meant to write, "Just like Moenghus f***ked you!" - which would mean something completely different. I guess the main reason I was able to maintain this line of thought was because Cnaiur himself was surprised when he found-out from Bannut that everyone thought he was Moenghus's lover. He was genuinely shocked! - but I guess that was the insanity taking over. Oh well, at least I knew that Simas was a skin-spy from the first book and you all didn't know until the last. HA HA! view post


posted 05 Sep 2006, 23:09 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I always knew Cnaiur was "gay" since Darkness and it surprises me that most people didnt really think that. Regarding Simas I wasnt sure if he was a skin spy but I definitely felt that something was up with him in Darkness. view post


posted 06 Sep 2006, 12:09 by Harrol, Moderator

Another thing that threw me to the fact that Cnauir was gay is that in his own pov he seems only interested in killing the men he sees and not having carnal relations with them. In fact even after book three he seems to only really have interest in Moenghus and not any other men. With exception to the night he thought Kellhus was Moenghus and then the night he buggered Conphas. When he buggered Conphas that seems to be more out of an attempt to defile more so than desire. view post


posted 14 Sep 2006, 08:09 by Scel, Candidate

I think butt raping that guy puts him in the "Prison Gay" category...not the "Interior decorating" category. :lol: view post


posted 14 Sep 2006, 17:09 by Harrol, Moderator

Scel you are probably right. i would never want to go to prison with Cnaiur. view post


posted 03 Oct 2006, 21:10 by Baby in a Sranc Pit, Commoner

Cnaiur is not "prison gay"... he's "Tom Cruise" gay. He's gay to the core and in total denial. The only reason he isn't with men 24/7 is becuase no one can love him like his Moengy-bear. view post


posted 04 Oct 2006, 05:10 by Harrol, Moderator

That being the case I still would not want to go to prison with Cnaiur, or anywhere else for that matter. view post


posted 04 Oct 2006, 22:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Im going to start calling this the post that cannot die. view post


posted 05 Oct 2006, 12:10 by Harrol, Moderator

Then I hereby name this the Lazerus post! :twisted: view post


posted 08 Oct 2006, 16:10 by Peter, Auditor

Am I the only one who thinks Cnaiur strongly desires Proyas? I can't remember when exactly, but in TWP Cnaiur saves Proyas after one of the battles, indeed carries him bodily to safety and the whole scene seemed to be dripping with homoeroticism. I don't have the books to hand, so I can't look it up and quote things, so I may imagining. More generally I think that Cnaiur is inherently homosexual (although this may be because of having been screwed around by Moenghus) and that his heterosexuality is more of a social construct. Serwe is Cnaiur's proof of his adherence to his people's ways, in part I read that as meaning that she proves his supposed heterosexuality. view post


posted 09 Oct 2006, 11:10 by Harrol, Moderator

I always got the feeling that cnauir saw himself in Proyas. What I mean is in respect to the way Moe took advantage of him heart and soul and how Kellhus is taking advantage of Proyas heart and soul. Cnauir could definately have intimate interests in Proyas too, of course I over looked that also. view post


posted 10 Oct 2006, 15:10 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

I'm sickened by the very thought. The man looked on the boy (young man) as a son. Someone to be instructed and tempered, not... view post


posted 10 Oct 2006, 16:10 by Harrol, Moderator

Mordecai I am in agreement with you. I think Cnauir I think saw Proyas as a son more than anything or at least in a mentor type fashion. view post


posted 15 Oct 2006, 21:10 by Peter, Auditor

Maybe I misread. At some point over the next year I intend to re-read the trilogy and I will pay specific attention to the relationship between Proyas and Cnaiur. I will say that what I remember was a certain tenderness (for a given value of tenderness I suppose, given that it is Cnaiur) on the part of Cnaiur which could be paternal (I didn't think of it at the time, but then again I suppose not being one I might miss the signs), but it could also derive from a less platonic source. I don't know and I will need closer re-reading to make a more determined judgement. view post


posted 15 Oct 2006, 21:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I always found Cnauirs relationship with Proyas as paternal, of all the Great Names he respected Proyas the most. view post


posted 16 Oct 2006, 01:10 by vercint, Peralogue

I agree with Peter. I didn't see it the first couple of times I read the book, but Cnaiur is definitely attracted to Proyas. You can see it in the way he thinks about Proyas at times when it makes no sense for him to do so unless he feels something for him. For instance, Proyas comes up several times whe he's thinking about Moenghus, and that time when he fucks a whole in he ground. And as Peter says, he carried Proyas through the Khemena desert. When Proyas asks him, he says it was because his position in the Holy War depends on Proyas. But he does it in that short, brutal way he uses when denying something he knows is true. Besides, if you think about it, Cnaiur doesn't really care about status anyway. Sure, some of this might be put down to paternal feelings, but I think Cnaiur's respect for Proyas is that of a man for another man, not a child. He always puts down the Iinrithi for being womanish and weak, but always excepts Proyas from this judgement. I think he sees in Proyas the qualities he admires in others, but without the deceptive ways of the Dunyain. It's all very subtle though, because Cnauir is himself trying to deny it, and since it's only evident in his pov it becomes hard to see because you tend to accept what the character thinks of himself as true. With Cnaiur this doesn't work because he is not quite sane view post


posted 16 Oct 2006, 01:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Hmmm you have made some excellent points I will have to reread the passages you just mentioned. Edit: I just read them and Im getting two feelings Scott is either very subtly saying Cnaiur is sexually attracted to Proyas, or another option im seeing now is that Cnauir wishes he could be more like Proyas. view post


posted 16 Oct 2006, 12:10 by Harrol, Moderator

The points that Vercint made are very good. I missed the short and brutal way he explained carrying Proyas out of the desert. That was a good catch Vercint. I also agree that Cnaiur saw more in Proyas than simply another man he was attracted to. He saw qualities that he respected in his own grudging way. I also wonder if just did not feel remorse for the way Kellhus was using Proyas. Since in many ways it was similar to the way Moe used him and took advantage of him. view post


posted 23 Oct 2006, 08:10 by Moebius, Commoner

The term "gay" is a loaded word in modern society. If we're talking strictly about whether Cnauir had sexual relations with men, the answer is probably affrimative (at least with Moen). At the very least I would say he's bisexual. As for whether Cnauir's feelings toward Proyas being paternal or sexual, it very well could be a mix of both. Although I would say the attraction isn't so much sexual as it is empathic and emotional. As I go through the books I didn't really get the feeling the Cnauir actually wants to BONE Proyas as he wants to be friends or companions with Proyas. view post


posted 23 Oct 2006, 22:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I concur moebius. view post


posted 24 Oct 2006, 07:10 by vercint, Peralogue

[quote="Moebius":2tps4dx2]The term "gay" is a loaded word in modern society. If we're talking strictly about whether Cnauir had sexual relations with men, the answer is probably affrimative (at least with Moen). At the very least I would say he's bisexual. As for whether Cnauir's feelings toward Proyas being paternal or sexual, it very well could be a mix of both. Although I would say the attraction isn't so much sexual as it is empathic and emotional. As I go through the books I didn't really get the feeling the Cnauir actually wants to BONE Proyas as he wants to be friends or companions with Proyas.[/quote:2tps4dx2] Then why does Cnaiur feel shame when he thinks about Proyas in some contexts? He doesn't feel shame otherwise about his association with the Inrithi, only disdain. Sure, part of what he feels about Proyas is tied to the fact that he genuinely respects him. But with Cnaiur, shame is always tied to sex and that's why I think he has some sort of physical desire for Proyas. view post


posted 24 Oct 2006, 10:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Just because his shame is associated with sex does not mean he desires Proyas in that way, its much the same with some homosexual men in the modern world who are ashamed of their behavior or the way they are who would also in all probability think of someone they had great respect for. This is one of the main reasons I said Cnaiur wished he could be more like Proyas, it could be said to a certain point that Proyas was somewhat of a role model for Cnauir. view post


posted 31 Jan 2007, 01:01 by Purple Library Guy, Commoner

It seems to me that Cnaiur would feel ashamed at respecting any non-Scylvendi, and at liking *anyone*. I think there's a part of him that regrets how incredibly isolated he is, but his culture tells him to despise everyone he meets. He feels ashamed of any impulses he has to form bonds with other people, whether involving a sexual kind of affection or just comradeship. Certainly teaching Conphas a lesson didn't seem to interfere with his sense of self in any way. While it seems pretty likely that Cnaiur had sex with Moenghus, and was deeply emotionally dependent on him, does that make him gay? I'm always a bit bemused at the difference in attitude towards gayness as opposed to straightness or for that matter other kinds of "what side are you on" oppositions. People seem to treat gayness like it's some kind of dread infection--let just one drop take root and all is lost, I tell you, lost! It will spread and Take You Over! Booga booga! It's like gays are the invasion of the fleepin' body snatchers or something. It seems to me this attitude is rooted deeply in homophobia, particularly religious homophobia. You wouldn't have people going around claiming that a self-defined gay person was straight because they'd slept with one woman. To the extent that Cnaiur is basically disposed to one gender more than another, I'd say the best evidence is provided by the Consult. When they decided to lead him by the balls with a skin changer, what form did they use? Serwe. And it worked pretty well. I'd also suggest that any strongly patriarchal society has a certain homoeroticism kinda buried in it. If women are discounted as real partners, who does that leave? You find a lot of homoerotic bonding among basically straight guys in contemporary jock/frat culture, for instance. view post


posted 31 Jan 2007, 13:01 by Harrol, Moderator

That is a good point you raise about Serwe. I also think they used that form to remind him that he is Scylvendi still. Why? because she is his proof that he is still one of the people. view post


posted 14 Feb 2007, 14:02 by Curethan, Didact

Just read the thread title. Lol. Only a supressed gay man would ask that question. Lets just say they buried him in a closet. view post


posted 21 Mar 2007, 06:03 by Jamara, Auditor

Okay, here's how I feel about it, and I don't know if it's already been covered (6 pages of responses was just too much for a newbie), but was Cnaiur gay? Yes. Does that mean he got jiggy with any other men other than Moenghus? Probably not. The Scylvendi held homosexuality as anethema. Heinous. Which is exactly why Conphas had their captives raped by other men at Kiyuth in order to drive them into attacking. Cnaiur so wanted to follow the Path of the People, which included a high level of homophobia, which is why he supressed it within himself. And when one supresses something like that, they tend to be the greatest homophobes. This is why he would kill an uncle for thinking him a homosexual. And he was not just seduced into being gay, that doesn't happen (at least not without a lot of beer) :wink: by Moenghus. Moenghus seduced him into abandoning the way of the People, which allowed him, among other things, to enjoy his natural inclinations. He was gay simply from the entry at the end of TTT (stop reading now if it is a spoiler) . . . (I can wait) . . . in which he enjoys the stronger embrace rather than the gentler of a female. He can feel secure in stronger arms, he can submit, he can be dominated sexually and emotionally. So yes, he was gay. Did he suppress it for thrity years, take many wives and father many children? Yes, but that is the nature of a suppressed society. He did what he was supposed to, and better than most, because that is what was expected of him. Does Cnaiur being gay mean that he was still not the fiercest of all men, hell no. In fact it gave him a suppressed anger against all his kinsmen which he could feed on when he was tearing out their entrails. Being a gay man does not mean that you can't be a fierce man. view post


posted 22 Mar 2007, 07:03 by Nauticus, Auditor

[quote="Jamara":19cz9qti]Okay, here's how I feel about it, and I don't know if it's already been covered (6 pages of responses was just too much for a newbie), but was Cnaiur gay? Yes. Does that mean he got jiggy with any other men other than Moenghus? Probably not. The Scylvendi held homosexuality as anethema. Heinous. Which is exactly why Conphas had their captives raped by other men at Kiyuth in order to drive them into attacking. Cnaiur so wanted to follow the Path of the People, which included a high level of homophobia, which is why he supressed it within himself. And when one supresses something like that, they tend to be the greatest homophobes. This is why he would kill an uncle for thinking him a homosexual. And he was not just seduced into being gay, that doesn't happen (at least not without a lot of beer) :wink: by Moenghus. Moenghus seduced him into abandoning the way of the People, which allowed him, among other things, to enjoy his natural inclinations. He was gay simply from the entry at the end of TTT (stop reading now if it is a spoiler) . . . (I can wait) . . . in which he enjoys the stronger embrace rather than the gentler of a female. He can feel secure in stronger arms, he can submit, he can be dominated sexually and emotionally. So yes, he was gay. Did he suppress it for thrity years, take many wives and father many children? Yes, but that is the nature of a suppressed society. He did what he was supposed to, and better than most, because that is what was expected of him. Does Cnaiur being gay mean that he was still not the fiercest of all men, hell no. In fact it gave him a suppressed anger against all his kinsmen which he could feed on when he was tearing out their entrails. Being a gay man does not mean that you can't be a fierce man.[/quote:19cz9qti] Fantastic point. Being gay myself, I can actually relate to the realism that many of your points support. view post


They are correct. posted 09 Apr 2007, 23:04 by PiledHighandDeep, Commoner

Jamara and Nauticus have it exactly right. I was so surprised that so many people in the earlier pages of this forum thought Cnaiur wasn't gay. I do not have the books in front of me, but I am certain that in the first book, one of the Scylvendi stated that he had seen Cnaiur and Moenghus together. This person spread around the fact that Cnaiur was gay throughout the entire Scylvendi clan, and that is why Cnaiur was treated like an outcast during the Battle of Kiyuth. He is gay. He has an incredible connection with Moenghus, from his point of view. When he figures out that Moenghus was just observing him, using him in the manner of the Dunyain, he is doubly devastated, because of his love for Moenghus, and because Moenghus opened up the world to him intellectually. Moenghus fundamentally changed Cnaiur, and then he left him. And because of Moenghus, Cnaiur's father is dead and his status in the clan is forever suspect. Moenghus turned Cnaiur's world upside-down. He is one of my favorite characters ever, because he is so intelligent, complex, conflicted, and crazy. view post


posted 26 Apr 2007, 22:04 by Coldsnap, Commoner

Of course he's homosexual, and or course it matters!!! It doesn't take away from him, it adds... but come on, you'd have to be insane not to see his homosexuality as a integral part to his story! I mean, i may have read it wrong, but i think he even rapes Conphas! Be careful though not to confuse homosexuality with how it appears in our culture... i mean, we are talking about an ancient, medieval and frankly fictional fantasy culture! And he's a massive, unbeatable barbarian! It doesn't manifest in a way that we would understand, but he is homosexual. And it never took away from the story, it only added! That's just my opinion, but i was never insulted by the idea... if anything, i applauded the courage of Bakker to take it there! But it is a major part of his struggle against his people, against himself... and the beauty is how Bakker realistically never lets him address with words or some unrealistic monlogue of acceptance... he is the breaker of horses and men, most violent, and Bakker lets him be homosexual in a breath-taking way... grim, silent, brooding... a storm of violence waiting to be unleashed, and chasing Moenghus through the whole world to deal with the betrayal, the heart break, and the classic belief of a homosexual barbarian in denial: that a someone MADE him this way and must pay for it! Someone else is responsible for his lack of respect among the clans, for his feeling of loss and hollowness, for his feeling of inadequacies... and his compensation is to become so violent, so horrifying, with so many wives, and with the taking of serwe as a sexual prize... and all of it is to no avail, because he cannot deny what he is. He can only deny the world the chance to see it. view post


posted 01 May 2007, 06:05 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Wow, this tired thread is still going? :) I think it's obvious - Cnaiur was not "gay" per se....but he *was* seduced by Moe and that seduction included sex. If Moengus could convince Cnaiur to kill his own father, then convincing him to enter into a manipulative sexual relationship would probably have been small potatos. view post


posted 01 May 2007, 21:05 by Harrol, Moderator

Incu duck you just opened up a can of worms. view post


posted 01 May 2007, 22:05 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote="Harrol":3i292lfk]Incu duck you just opened up a can of worms.[/quote:3i292lfk] And the cycle begins again. view post


posted 01 May 2007, 23:05 by anor277, Didact

This certainly is the thread that will not die. And for a question that is blindingly, obviously yes. When reading this I always keep thinking of an article in [i:2cj9zupn]The Onion[/i:2cj9zupn], [url:2cj9zupn]http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33540[/url:2cj9zupn]. I suspect that Cnaiür would fully identify with the man in the article: [i:2cj9zupn]"A few months back, I started wearing an intimidating-looking black leather thong with menacing metal studs in the hopes that it would frighten those faggots off, but it didn't work. In fact, it only seemed to encourage them."[/i:2cj9zupn] view post


posted 25 May 2007, 00:05 by Cohen, Peralogue

I have read this thread from 1st post to last and while I found it quite hilarious at moments I also felt like violently shaking sense into some of the posters. I cannot believe that people want to label Cnauir with some 21st century moniker...GAY, Cnauir is not gay in the 21st century version of the word in any way. I concede the point that yes , Cnauir had sex with men ie. Moengus, but as a Dunyain Moengus did this to further possess Cnauir, and Cnuair raped Conphas in order to possess and break him,(Breaker of horses and men) to prove to Conphas that he was the most violent of men, to prove to himself ,as Cnauir was contstantly inadequite in his own mind. But I never found his homosexual acts to be defined as strictly the need to have sex with men for gratification.There was always underlining meaning with him. If indeed we must label Cnuair, he is as he defines himself, most violent of all men, and how can you call yourself that if you are not willing to fuck another man in the ass? Why hold prejudice to men in terms of rape when you seek to possess with fear? Cnauir was not gay, he was possessed by a Dunyain, and damaged beyong repair. Most of you seem to be blinded by the homosexual acts instead of the meaning behind the acts. Cnauir was the product of an absolute mindfuck by Moengus and constantly battled the after effects of this interaction, he felt wronged and shame acompanies that wrong doing.Cnauir did not lust after men as a label of gay might insinuate. He blood lusted after one man, the very man that poseesed him in all ways, a Dunyain monk. view post


posted 25 May 2007, 00:05 by Cohen, Peralogue

[quote="Coldsnap":1rxtr6bi]Of course he's homosexual, and or course it matters!!! It doesn't take away from him, it adds... but come on, you'd have to be insane not to see his homosexuality as a integral part to his story! I mean, i may have read it wrong, but i think he even rapes Conphas! Be careful though not to confuse homosexuality with how it appears in our culture... i mean, we are talking about an ancient, medieval and frankly fictional fantasy culture! And he's a massive, unbeatable barbarian! It doesn't manifest in a way that we would understand, but he is homosexual. And it never took away from the story, it only added! That's just my opinion, but i was never insulted by the idea... if anything, i applauded the courage of Bakker to take it there! But it is a major part of his struggle against his people, against himself... and the beauty is how Bakker realistically never lets him address with words or some unrealistic monlogue of acceptance... he is the breaker of horses and men, most violent, and Bakker lets him be homosexual in a breath-taking way... grim, silent, brooding... a storm of violence waiting to be unleashed, and chasing Moenghus through the whole world to deal with the betrayal, the heart break, and the classic belief of a homosexual barbarian in denial: that a someone MADE him this way and must pay for it! Someone else is responsible for his lack of respect among the clans, for his feeling of loss and hollowness, for his feeling of inadequacies... and his compensation is to become so violent, so horrifying, with so many wives, and with the taking of serwe as a sexual prize... and all of it is to no avail, because he cannot deny what he is. He can only deny the world the chance to see it.[/quote:1rxtr6bi] I guess I skipped this post......but coldsnap hit it on the button here. view post


posted 25 May 2007, 01:05 by snapdragon, Candidate

am i alone in thinking it incredibly arrogant to post opinions you claim to be certainties?! fact is that the case can be made either way on this issue. you are going to see what you want to see in the metaphors, similes, comparisons, and ambiguous language that draw the reader deeper into the literary work. you think you can boil down three novels' worth of the illiterate, outcast, barbarian character heralded as the "most violent" into a question of sexual orientation? better question...you think you [i:3ixpf9fo]should[/i:3ixpf9fo]? eesh! a forest-for-the-trees moment here, people. maybe next you wanna stand in front of a painting in a gallery and tell me what the artist was [i:3ixpf9fo]trying [/i:3ixpf9fo]to say? view post


posted 25 May 2007, 02:05 by Cohen, Peralogue

A point made...and taken. But I am having fun talking about it. view post


posted 25 Jun 2007, 15:06 by Nerdanel, Peralogue

Cnaiür was gay, gay, gay and in total denial about it. I think Moënghus probably chose him because he was gay and therefore easier to turn against the customs of the People. A lot has been said on the subject of Cnaiür's gayness. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is how in one scene Cnaiür thinks about Conphas's pretty eyelashes. I think the true reason Cnaiür refused to kill Conphas was that he was in love with him, although Cnaiür's unhealthy repressed feelings lead him into homophobia and violent rage. Cnaiür also doesn't seem to have had any children before little Moënghus, conceived in front of Kellhus in an attempt to show off heterosexuality. I think the reason is his desire for "illicit congress" with his wives. I think he liked to have sex in ways that allowed him to imagine he was having sex with a man, and that's why there were no children. I don't think the lack of children is explicitly mentioned anywhere, but the absence of mention is glaring. For example, think about the dream sequence in which Moënghus has taken Cnaiür's animals and wives, but Cnaiür's children are nowhere to be seen. Re: slash, I think most M/M slash is written by heterosexual females for the same reason that heterosexual men like Lesbian p*orn. Even when published authors write about homosexual characters, I have noticed that most female authors portray homosexual males and male authors females. That's why when a male author writes about gay men, it gets one thinking... view post


posted 25 Jun 2007, 16:06 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote:3b88pwq6]Cnaiür also doesn't seem to have had any children before little Moënghus[/quote:3b88pwq6] I believe Cnauir has [u:3b88pwq6]many [/u:3b88pwq6]children, they just aren't mentioned a whole lot, in the back of the TFT glossary I believe his daughter is listed. view post


posted 25 Jun 2007, 18:06 by Harrol, Moderator

Actually at the beginning of the first book I believe it states he has 18 sons and who knows how many daughters and as many wives as some rulers of old. view post


posted 25 Jun 2007, 19:06 by Nerdanel, Peralogue

Okay, I'll believe you about Cnaiür's children... (He's still gay though, as I had much better points too.) Considering that of my recent post this one is the only one to gain any replies, I wonder if I should post my crackpot theory about Nonmen Erratics and related things, so that people can tell me how wrong I am... view post


posted 26 Jun 2007, 01:06 by IcarusXIII, Candidate

Right I do appologise if this is flogging a dead horse but I've not read all the posts in this topic but I wanted to add my 10 quid. He's deffinately Bi-sexual at the very least. I mean he does seem to love Serwe in a strange and twisted way, not at first that I think is as has been said him acting out of denial, but the scene in TTT when he mentions to the skin spy serwe that their child would have been conceived in moutains like the ones they are in, he seems touched with regret almost. Also how anyone could doubt his sexuality after the final scene with Moengus is beyond me, he openly states the the collapse into a stronger mans arms is what he loved about Moengus, which is understandable given how he's never had anyone to fall back on before, allways being driven to be stronger meaner and more aggressive. The reason I'd say bi-sexual instead of saying he's actually gay is the way he does seemt o fall in love with Serwe, or at least the idea of her, I mean at the end he is poised to cut his own throat untill the skin spy approaches him as her and then he changes his mind. Cnaiur was without a doubt my favourite character in all the books by quite some way. I've never came across a single character in any work of fiction whos captured my imagination quite as much. He better crop up in the Aspect Emperor arc at somepoint. view post


posted 26 Jun 2007, 22:06 by Jamara, Auditor

Nerdanel - go back and read my post on this thread, I think it is on page 6. I think you'll enjoy it. view post


posted 26 Jun 2007, 23:06 by Harrol, Moderator

By the way I am not disputing Cnaiur's homosexuality I am merely stating that his child with Serwe was one of many children with many wives. That is not a dispute of his orentation but rather to point out what he has done. view post


posted 28 Jun 2007, 22:06 by Nerdanel, Peralogue

Jamara: I read the whole thread before responding, but your post was so good I didn't mind reading it again. I agree completely. By the way, I've been thinking that the Scylvendi might have an above-average number of gay men among them, since it appears that closeted homosexuality is a survival trait among them, and makes them more driven to excel in all "manly" pursuits such as warfare and fathering many children. The closeted gays would in turn reinforce the repressive homophobic atmosphere due to their need for projection, shifting the blame, and making sure that no one else gets to have the forbidden fun if they can't. So the next generation grows up in a homophobic atmosphere, and the vicious circle of Scylvendi martial accomplishment is ready... view post


posted 02 Jul 2007, 10:07 by Tar.Aldarion, Candidate

He is either bi-sexual or straight, I hazard bisexual due to his thoughts. view post


posted 11 Jul 2007, 14:07 by Curethan, Didact

You know, this thread reminds me of something one of the red-neck freaks I work with said to me. "You're only gay if you take it." So, following that pearl of homophobic wisdom along, I reckon Moenghus and Conphas were definately gay, but Cnaiur was just a manly man, teaching those dirty fags a lesson. :P view post


posted 11 Jul 2007, 15:07 by Tar.Aldarion, Candidate

None of those three people were gay. view post


posted 11 Jul 2007, 17:07 by Harrol, Moderator

Moe being gay??? I do not think so he is neither straight or gay but Dunyain. view post


posted 11 Jul 2007, 22:07 by Curethan, Didact

Jep, twas merely a jape. view post


posted 12 Jul 2007, 08:07 by Tar.Aldarion, Candidate

Is Dunyain a sexual orientation now? view post


posted 12 Jul 2007, 17:07 by Harrol, Moderator

Sorry Curethan I just so look forward to arguing with you that I over looked any chance of you being comical. view post


posted 17 Jul 2007, 06:07 by xatantius, Candidate

It doesn't really matter whether he is or not does it? Sexuality seems to be somewhat interchangeable for the men of the Three Seas-Achamian, Moenghus, Inrau, Proyas, Eleazaras, Xerius, even Conphas showed bisexual tendencies, as well as all of High Ainon and the Nansurium (according to the Scylvendi anyway). The only reason it becomes an issue with Cnaiur is because it's taboo to the Scylvendi and he refuses to acknowledge it. I don't even see why it's an issue-bisexuality is pretty damn tame compared to some of the OTHER sexual preferences in PoN (I'm looking at YOU xerius). Cnaiur's pretty normal wen you compare him to the Inchoroi. they're just...ew :shock: view post


posted 19 Jul 2007, 06:07 by anor277, Didact

[quote="xatantius":3f1klms6]It doesn't really matter ............ Cnaiur's pretty normal wen you compare him to the Inchoroi. they're just...ew :shock:[/quote:3f1klms6] Cnaiur's homosexuality was not an issue; but his knowingly shagging a skin-spy really turns the stomach. He really was quite phucked up - I hope Moenghus was proud. view post


posted 19 Jul 2007, 07:07 by Tar.Aldarion, Candidate

I would have done her too. :P view post


posted 19 Jul 2007, 16:07 by Cohen, Peralogue

Just going to throw this out there, Do you remember when the Emperor's mother had a boner? Yeah that's right, a boner! And I believe all skin spies have a penis. Hence, Cnauir banging away at Serwe/Skinspy with her big ol floppy dong swinging in the breeze is ,mmm how should I put this.....quite Gay indeed. view post


posted 20 Jul 2007, 08:07 by Tar.Aldarion, Candidate

Anal sex and ignore that it has a penis is the way forward. view post


posted 20 Jul 2007, 11:07 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Tar.Aldarion":5t7p3bs8]Anal sex and ignore that it has a penis is the way forward.[/quote:5t7p3bs8] And also ignoring that the thing might rip your face off as soon as look at you is also advised. view post


posted 23 Jul 2007, 01:07 by Cohen, Peralogue

......and somewhere a closet door creaks ominously. view post


posted 16 Sep 2007, 02:09 by Shell, Peralogue

I just finished TTT about 3 hours ago. 8 pages is of messages is overwhelming for a newbie, but... I must be the densest person on the planet. I spent three books wondering what the hell "proof" Serwe was, and then the passionate kiss with Moe... The light bulb goes on... view post


posted 16 Sep 2007, 03:09 by Harrol, Moderator

Do not feel bad Shell a lot of us were fooled for awhile. view post


posted 16 Sep 2007, 14:09 by Shell, Peralogue

Thanks Harrol! Whew, thought I was the only one... If I am going over old ground, forgive me, I just finished the trilogy yesterday, and couldn't sleep last night. I think what threw me is that Cnauir seemed utterly surprised that his tribe thought he was a "faggot weeper". Maybe in hindsight, he was surprised that the tribe even suspected, as I am sure he thought his liason completely private and hidden. That said, I don't think he is gay, or rather he would not define himself as gay. We are placing that label on him. He clealy likes/lusts for women as shown in his descriptions of Anissi and Serwe. You don't hear him noticing Conphas' "muscular thighs" for example. Let me expalin further. I am a student at the University of Minnesota and am taking an HIV/AIDS class, and rather than talk about gay men, the instructor kept speaking of "men who have sex with men" or MSM as being high-risk for HIV, blah, blah. I couldn't get my head around this. If you are a man, and having sex with a man, you are either gay, or bisexual. So I asked. Here is my instructor's example. Say you have a male prostitute and he is has majority male clientele, we say "He is gay" - yet you ask said prostitute, and he will say " I love women. I date them when I am not working. I turn tricks with men to put food on the table and pay the rent. I am not gay." This person is MSM, but not gay. Gay is pretty much a self-defined term. So...Cnauir would not define himself as gay. We define him as gay. I compare Moe and Cnauir parallelling sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests. That, and as Scylenvendi culture was short on expressions of love and acceptance, why wouldn't he turn to Moe as a caring, accepting father figure (however false). view post


posted 16 Sep 2007, 23:09 by Harrol, Moderator

There were some good points you made in the above statement. The one thing I see though is that Cnaiur sexualized the father/son role he had with Moe. I do not see him sexualizing Kellhus with the possible exception of the scene next to the sea when Kellhus was thinking of killing him. view post


posted 16 Sep 2007, 23:09 by Shell, Peralogue

Moe sexualized the relationship, not Cnaiur. Think of all the child molesters out there - priest, boy scout leader, teacher, neighbor. Its always an authority figure and they usually insinuate themselves by becoming the father figure, the trusted confidante, and then it leads to a sexual relationship. The child believes that this person is doing this because the adult "loves" him. BTW, after spending EIGHT hours last night on this forum, I realize I am really late to the party - I some cases years late! lol I have the hardcovers and TTT is copyright 2006, so I figured it was a pretty recent series. I had no idea the paperbacks were out up to five years ago. Ah, for the days when publishers put the hardcovers out first so one knew one's place in the world... view post


posted 16 Sep 2007, 23:09 by Harrol, Moderator

Do not feel that you are late because you are not. All posts are open for discussion and in my opinion no thread is too old to re-open. view post


posted 17 Sep 2007, 00:09 by Shell, Peralogue

Thanks for that - that is good to know. I have bone to pick with whole Esmi-Akka-Kellhus thing, and Kellhus' "morality" - just not sure how to say it yet... view post


posted 17 Sep 2007, 02:09 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Shell":2tjg9gif]Thanks Harrol! Whew, thought I was the only one... If I am going over old ground, forgive me, I just finished the trilogy yesterday, and couldn't sleep last night. I think what threw me is that Cnauir seemed utterly surprised that his tribe thought he was a "faggot weeper". Maybe in hindsight, he was surprised that the tribe even suspected, as I am sure he thought his liason completely private and hidden. That said, I don't think he is gay, or rather he would not define himself as gay. We are placing that label on him. He clealy likes/lusts for women as shown in his descriptions of Anissi and Serwe. You don't hear him noticing Conphas' "muscular thighs" for example. Let me expalin further. I am a student at the University of Minnesota and am taking an HIV/AIDS class, and rather than talk about gay men, the instructor kept speaking of "men who have sex with men" or MSM as being high-risk for HIV, blah, blah. I couldn't get my head around this. If you are a man, and having sex with a man, you are either gay, or bisexual. So I asked. Here is my instructor's example. Say you have a male prostitute and he is has majority male clientele, we say "He is gay" - yet you ask said prostitute, and he will say " I love women. I date them when I am not working. I turn tricks with men to put food on the table and pay the rent. I am not gay." This person is MSM, but not gay. Gay is pretty much a self-defined term. So...Cnauir would not define himself as gay. We define him as gay. I compare Moe and Cnauir parallelling sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests. That, and as Scylenvendi culture was short on expressions of love and acceptance, why wouldn't he turn to Moe as a caring, accepting father figure (however false).[/quote:2tjg9gif] Interesting.....Yet Cnaiur was also a murderer, a rapist, and a wife beater - he would probably only accept the first label. Not for a moment do I suggest that a gay individual is morally comparable to a murderer, and I do take the point that an individual is not defined by his sexuality, but are we not free to apply a label if we think (with reason) it fits. view post


posted 17 Sep 2007, 02:09 by Shell, Peralogue

The entire army of the Tusk murdered and raped - one man's soldier is another's...raper and murderer. Cnaiur would not think of himself as a wife-beater either, that is his culture, and when you are inside your culture, you don't see the wierdness of it as an outsider would. I think the old Japanese custom of ritual suicide is wierd, they think the American idea of "rugged individualism" wierd. Please don't think I am anxiously responding to posts as they come in. I am a grad student and am sitting here writing a paper, and desparate for any distraction that presents itself! view post


posted 17 Sep 2007, 03:09 by Curethan, Didact

The crux of the issue is raised in anor277's post I think. We can apply labels where ever we like but the only thing that does is draws a box around our own perceptions. When I think of the word gay, two meeanings come to mind - a teenage boy's classifaction of something undesirable he hopes does not apply to himself and a homosexual man who has claimed his sexuality as a source of individuallity and pride. view post


posted 17 Sep 2007, 03:09 by Shell, Peralogue

We can apply labels where ever we like but the only thing that does is draws a box around our own perceptions. I like that, we are really defining ourselves when we label something. view post


posted 17 Sep 2007, 04:09 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Shell":1spz9ugc]We can apply labels where ever we like but the only thing that does is draws a box around our own perceptions. I like that, we are really defining ourselves when we label something.[/quote:1spz9ugc] Well, my perceptions definitely have a box around them. view post


posted 17 Sep 2007, 04:09 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Shell":2wt6qdho]The entire army of the Tusk murdered and raped - one man's soldier is another's...raper and murderer. Cnaiur would not think of himself as a wife-beater either, that is his culture, and when you are inside your culture, you don't see the wierdness of it as an outsider would. [/quote:2wt6qdho] Shell, you should get back to your paper.....On the other hand, Cnauir definitely did appreciate the eccentricity of Scylvendi culture. He (alone of his people?) was intelligent enough to see its ubiquity and strangeness, and Moenghus exploited it. Anyway, whatever his perception of himself, the fact was he was a murderer and rapist and thoroughly despicable individual - and his crimes were as black as those committed by some of the men of the Tusk. view post


posted 17 Sep 2007, 12:09 by Shell, Peralogue

I never thought he appreciated the "strangeness" of his people's attitude towards women, however. He couldn't figure out to love Serwe without beating her. Hmmm, but he did love Anissi - and still beat her. I don't think the Scylevendi culture was any stranger or eccentric than any of the others, like the ones who had heads or something in their braids. view post


posted 10 Dec 2007, 23:12 by Writer, Candidate

Keep in mind that being gay is just about the greatest crime a Sclyvendi could commit, and since Cnauir wants to be the Greatest Sclyvendi of them all this would be the last thing he wants to let on. Is he gay though? Again, I don't think it really matters. He's probubly so screwed up even he dosn't know. view post


posted 15 Feb 2008, 05:02 by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

I think we are placing too much emphasis on "gay" vs. "straight" vs "bi-sexual"...maybe this has already been pointed out, but sexuality is more of a continuum than separate spheres residing miles apart, with no common ground. Furthermore, in Cnaiur's case, I would suggest that any accurate depiction of his sexuality must be addressed in two separate ways. Firstly, his relations with Moenghus. A dunyain, as was said earlier, could talk him or herself into anyone's pants, regardless of sexuality. I would support this by saying that as much as sexuality determines who we are initially attracted to, that process can work the other way. That powerful intimacy, especially if guided by someone who is in a position of power, like Moenghus with Cnaiur, could be turned from the emotional to the physical very easily, regardless of Cnaiur's sexuality. Sexuality reinforces intimacy and vice versa; the line between the two is complex and blurry. The second aspect is Cnaiur's response; I like to think of it as his backlash, the physical expression of his rage and inner torment. His sexuality when he is in a position of dominance I would say reflects heterosexual leanings only because, in cnaiur's world, men are more dominated and violated by being killed. Women don't fit into that paradigm, and so raping will have to suffice to show complete and utter violent domination. As he rapes and kills and violates, Cnaiur attempts to scar the world as he is scarred, simultaneously expressing his anguish at being so emotionally castrated and his despair knowing he cannot change. Now, this last bit is my own personal interpretation; it's drawn more on assumptions than actual text. The flavor of Cnaiur is violence and violation. I asked myself "why?" and this was my take on it. Back to the sexuality tack, I don't think Cnaiur is really homosexual or heterosexual. I think any homosexual relations in the books reflect more the level of control moenghus has over Cnaiur, rather than Cnaiur's instinctual sexuality. That has long since been scarred as well. Cnaiur's sexuality I would say only manifests as another means of controlling and scarring his world. T I really did put too much here, but it would be interesting to investigate Cnaiur and the Idea of the Scar or the state of beingt scarred; i think that word, more than even violent or murderer, sums him up best. view post


posted 15 Feb 2008, 18:02 by Shell, Peralogue

Nice post Sea Cucumber. view post


posted 15 Feb 2008, 19:02 by Harrol, Moderator

Bravo. That explains a lot to me. view post


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