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Glad to see we have this forum posted 17 Jan 2006, 23:01 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

So, first off. Wow. TTT was truly amazing. So, since we know that Maith' is Moenghus' son he is 1/2 Dunyain in the sense of breeding/genetics. Obviously he has limited potential (Moenghus himself said this) but also, what was the environment of his training? I would think that the environment would have had a rather large impact on this as well. One of my personal favourites is when Kelhus uses two inutterals to transform a Cant of Calling into a means of teleportation, and how he employed that in an amazing way to defeat the Cisharuim almost single handedly. view post


posted 18 Jan 2006, 00:01 by Nauticus, Auditor

I was impressed by the book. The battle scene was amazing - and it had one of the best battles of sorcery I've read thus far. I was a touch saddened by the death of Emperor Ikurei Conphas I - he was one of my favorite characters. But yes, learning that Moenghus is Maithanet's father... and that Moenghus is also Mallahet, was quite interesting. And Cnaiur's confrontation with Moenghus was unexpected. I love how Cnaiur collapsed into insanity. Completely. Did Cnaiur survive? Or did he die? So, let me just double-check something. Are the Consult and Inchorori the same thing? I've got to admit. I was shocked at Drusas Achamian's actions at the end there. Can't wait to see his character in [i:y7m74snu]The Aspect-Emperor[/i:y7m74snu]. view post


posted 18 Jan 2006, 01:01 by Twayleph, Auditor

Yes, the sorcerous battle was awesome - nothing like a full clash of the two most powerful Schools. I'm not entirely clear on this - apart from Iyokus, did many of the Scarlet Spires Schoolmen survive or is it reduced to a Minor School ? I was also very surprised to learn who - and what - Maithanet really is. I was a little disappointed, though, to learn that for all the mystery and power surrounding him, he's nothing more than a Dûnyain tool. Also very curious of what was his environment - was he secreted into the obscurity of the Nonmen Mansion to be raised exclusively by Moënghus or was he left in the care of the Cishaurim while Moënghus preoccupied himself with TTT? Nauticus : the Consult isn't the same thing as the Inchoroi. The Inchoroi are an alien race, an invader upon Eärwa that was all but wiped out by the Nonmen. The Consult, on the other hand, is an assembly of powerful servants of the No-God. Though the No-God was originally an Ichoroi weapon, the Consult itself is made up of Erratic Nonmen, Men (of the School of Maengedda) and the last two surviving Ichoroi. view post


posted 18 Jan 2006, 01:01 by Nauticus, Auditor

Ah, okay. As far as the Scarlet Spires go, I'm not sure if any of them survived at all. I know Eleazeras - the Grandmaster - died. When it was all said and done, Kellhus killed the last five Cishaurim. So I believe that the Scarlet Spires - at least, those who marched on Shimeh - died. I think the Scarlet Spires is now a minor school, if it's a school at all. view post


posted 18 Jan 2006, 05:01 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

One of the most interesting things is that Kelhus now has the Mandate firmly at his side, as well as the Thousand Temples. Plus Sorcery is now no longer a sin in the eyes of the Inrithi. It will be very interesting to see how this will all play out. I think one of the great benefits of how Scott has chosen to lay out this tale is that when next we visit Earwa in The Aspect-Emperor, roughly twenty years will have elapsed since the end of The Thousandfold Thought. I don't say Maithanet as a Dunyain tool, well... he was in a way but I think he is at least semi-cognisant of his origins, given that he could see the Skin Spies as well, Moenghus must have given him some semblance of training I believe. Kelhus can no longer really be described as simply a Dunyain monk. His journey through the outside world has fundamentally shaped him to the point where not everything is merely superstition. Sorcery and the Outside do exist, as do Agents of the Outside. He has become more. I think this has taken him further down the road towards the Dunyain's ultimate goal. Will the Dunyain re-enter the picture down the road? I hope so. It is an exciting yet terrible idea all at the same time. Imagine if all of the Few among the Dunyain were trained as Gnostic Sorcerors by Kelhus. A group of Philosopher-Sorceror-Monks, it would almost be as scary as the Consult and the No-God in some ways. :) Guess we'll just wait and see. view post


posted 20 Jan 2006, 08:01 by Nauticus, Auditor

Conphas was my favorite, too. I think the trilogy ended well. The Prince of Nothing was about 'merely' the Holy War. The Holy War ended, but something bigger is happening. One can only assume that it'll be carried on in The Aspect-Emperor. view post


posted 20 Jan 2006, 15:01 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yea, Scott had stated a few times (at least in the Ask the Author board) that The Prince of Nothing covers the Second Holy War. The Aspect Emperor will jump ahead twenty years to the opening of the Second Apocalypse (I believe). So in the next books, whenever they come, we will see more of the Consult, the Inchoroi, and the No-God. view post


posted 20 Jan 2006, 22:01 by Nauticus, Auditor

I have a question about TTT. Did Cnaiur live or die? His 'lover', Moenghus, dies and he passes out and/or dies. Thats all that we hear from him. Plus, if he does die, he'd probably be the first character to not be accompanied by 'Dead came swirling down' description corosponding with his death. view post


posted 21 Jan 2006, 00:01 by Twayleph, Auditor

I'm not sure about Cnaiür's fate, either. My instinct is that he survived, but I haven't seen anything that supports or contradicts that. [quote:2gz5xhxg] if he does die, he'd probably be the first character to not be accompanied by 'Dea*th came swirling down'[/quote:2gz5xhxg] What about Serwë ? And...and...well, yeah, Scott does seem to like that phrase a lot :) I wonder how many times we'll see it in the Aspect-Emperor, what will all the murders and betrayals and massacres any good Apocalypse comprises :D view post


posted 21 Jan 2006, 00:01 by Nauticus, Auditor

Haha I can picture it now. "And the death, collectively, comes swirling down." view post


posted 21 Jan 2006, 15:01 by Spamoram, Candidate

Pretty sure Cnaiur survived. The "death came swirling down" phrase kept being repeated was a literary device to hammer in the fact that death and pain was all around. An example of this would be the "I have a dream" speech by Martin Luther King Jr. [b:ty465exs]Twayleph[/b:ty465exs], do you really want the Dunyain to get the secret of the gnosis? Especially after Kellhus kills Moenghus because he is Dunyain and is therefore damned as well. Damned to the point that his goal would eventually allign with that of the Consult. Destruction of the human race. view post


posted 21 Jan 2006, 18:01 by Twayleph, Auditor

Spamoram, I think you're confusing me with Entropic Existence regarding giving the Gnosis to the Dûnyain :) Also, I appreciated the metaphorical power of the "death came swirling down" phrase the first time I'd read it, I just think over all the times it got repeated over the three novels, the phrase lost its meaning and became more of an anecdote. view post


posted 21 Jan 2006, 18:01 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yea, Iw as the one who made the comment about the Dunyain getting the Gnosis. I also said it would be a damned frightening thing :) Not necessarily good, just interesting. view post


posted 24 Jan 2006, 16:01 by Grallon, Candidate

Someone will have to clarify this for me: the Inchoroi wanted to destroy humans & non men to 'seal the world' ?! Are we talking about a physical phenomenon or a philosophical concept ? ----- Some observations about TTT: - the pacing was not balanced: too much ruminations in the first part for the quickened rythm that followed in the last part; - though I understand the necessity to set the stage for the next book I felt that Comphas was definately short changed. *scowls*; - similarly the unexplained falling in line of the entire Mandate behind Khellus was annoying. Entirely too much time was wasted with Achamian's redundant feelings for the whore and Cnaiurs madness while not enough was devoted to fleshing out other sub plots; - by the end of TTT it seem to me Khellus has grown so much - so fast - that the Consult does't look very threatening anymore. One can only imagine what he will be after 20 years of learning/practicing/improvising on the Gnosis... If he trains more like him - why the Second Apocalypse will be a walk in the park. And that's clumsy storytelling to deflate your main villain so fast. - Overall this last book was less satisfying than expected. G. view post


posted 24 Jan 2006, 17:01 by Nauticus, Auditor

[quote="Grallon":2eqiah5y]Someone will have to clarify this for me: the Inchoroi wanted to destroy humans & non men to 'seal the world' ?! Are we talking about a physical phenomenon or a philosophical concept ?[/quote:2eqiah5y] I think it's philosophical - it's their version of a religion. They're saving their souls from being damned. [quote="Grallon":2eqiah5y]Some observations about TTT: - the pacing was not balanced: too much ruminations in the first part for the quickened rythm that followed in the last part; [/quote:2eqiah5y] I didn't mind that. The beginning built the tension of the forthcoming battle, the meeting, and the climax. What else could have happened at the beginning? The Fanim were retreating... [quote="Grallon":2eqiah5y]Some observations about TTT: - though I understand the necessity to set the stage for the next book I felt that Comphas was definately short changed. *scowls*; [/quote:2eqiah5y] I was definately a fan of Conphas, and I hoped he was going to become the Aspect-Emperor. But I can't blame Bakker for killing him. [quote="Grallon":2eqiah5y]Some observations about TTT: - similarly the unexplained falling in line of the entire Mandate behind Khellus was annoying. Entirely too much time was wasted with Achamian's redundant feelings for the whore and Cnaiurs madness while not enough was devoted to fleshing out other sub plots; [/quote:2eqiah5y] Unexplained? When Achamian was talking to Nautzera, he told the Mandate, "Wait until you meet him" or something with the same point. The Mandate were cautious about Kellhus, but they met him and we know the results. I don't know what was so unexplained about it. And which subplots did you want more time fleshing out? [quote="Grallon":2eqiah5y]Some observations about TTT: - by the end of TTT it seem to me Khellus has grown so much - so fast - that the Consult does't look very threatening anymore. One can only imagine what he will be after 20 years of learning/practicing/improvising on the Gnosis... If he trains more like him - why the Second Apocalypse will be a walk in the park. And that's clumsy storytelling to deflate your main villain so fast. [/quote:2eqiah5y] I'm not sure. I don't know if it's clumsy storytelling, as it might have been intentional. But I don't see the Consult any less of a threat. Yes, Kellhus is powerful, but we haven't seen any of the incarnations of the Tekne (Old Science). Keep in mind, the No-God will probably be resurrected, and the Heron Spear is missing. view post


posted 24 Jan 2006, 23:01 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="Nauticus":3gdrqluy]... I'm not sure. I don't know if it's clumsy storytelling, as it might have been intentional. But I don't see the Consult any less of a threat. Yes, Kellhus is powerful, but we haven't seen any of the incarnations of the Tekne (Old Science). Keep in mind, the No-God will probably be resurrected, and the Heron Spear is missing.[/quote:3gdrqluy] During the course of 2 books we heard about the dread Inchoroi; about how the world went through an apocalypse, about the slaughter of peoples and the slaughter of nations... Here we see Khellus facing down an Old Name, killing skin spys at will. And with his mastery of the Gnosis (and whatever new inventions he'll come up with over the next 20 years - I don't see what could stop him). The No-God ? I don't know what it is - but by the descriptions it looks like some sort of self aware machine. Again with the expended Gnosis I don't see how much trouble it could be. Anything with a physical form can be destroyed with the application of enough energy. I don't know it just seem khellus has been turned into a god - and I dislike the implications. G. view post


posted 25 Jan 2006, 01:01 by Twayleph, Auditor

I share some of Grallon's disappointments regarding TTT, especially how much ink was devoted describing Cnaiür's madness. I didn't particularly like these passages, and I think a lot more time could've been devoted to the events at the end of the book - like how Maithanet and the Mandate came to serve Khellus. The issue of why the Consult wants to destroy Men and Nonmen, was a metaphysical issue. Men (and probably Nonmen too) are portals through which the Outside can take expression into the world. As long as Men exist, the Gods will have influence over Eärwa and its souls, which means that some souls will be Redeemed and some others will be Damned. The more you kill Men, the less influence the Outside has over the world, until one day they become so remote that the world is "sealed" - a state described by Khellus as when "The Gods howl like wolves at silent gates" If (when?) that happens, then the possibilities of Redemption and Damnation no longer exist and all souls fall into Oblivion upon death. This is the ultimate goal of the Consult. The Inchoroi know themselves damned - the topoi, the glimpse into the Outside, that exists in Golgotterath leaves little ambiguity as to what their after-life fate is. As for the Men, well at first they were sorcerers of the Maengedda and as we know in the pre-Khellus era everyone believed sorcerers were damned. After all the crimes they've commited throughout the millenia, they certainly are now. But if they seal the world, they won't have to suffer the eternal consequences of their actions. Concerning Khellus' rise to power, I think you're writing off the Consult far too quickly. Yes, he did face an Old Name and survived, but remember that for a while he utterly lost control of Legion, which is a pretty impressive feat, and anyway both Khellus and Aurang thought this fight a diversion. Consider also that, if Achamian is to be believed, there are [i:310yex4f]hundreds[/i:310yex4f] of times the numbers of Sranc there were at the time of the First Apocalypse, and the High North, the most powerful civilization of that time, lost. And regarding your comment that Khellus could destroy anything physical now, including the No-God...what ? The physical descriptions of the No-God are more impressive than any other villain's depiction I've ever read of. Even if it weren't for the fact that the No-God is [i:310yex4f]immune to sorcery[/i:310yex4f] (remember the Chorae embedded in its Carapace?), it still wouldn't be a piece of cake to destroy - far from it. The Heron Spear, the only known means of destroying it, is now lost...no, I don't think the Consult is beaten yet, and the Three-Seas' chances are still low enough for the Second Apocalypse to be very threatening, in my opinion. view post


posted 25 Jan 2006, 03:01 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="Twayleph":1r0fe5yz]... The issue of why the Consult wants to destroy Men and Nonmen, was a metaphysical issue. Men (and probably Nonmen too) are portals through which the Outside can take expression into the world. As long as Men exist, the Gods will have influence over Eärwa and its souls, which means that some souls will be Redeemed and some others will be Damned. The more you kill Men, the less influence the Outside has over the world, until one day they become so remote that the world is "sealed" - a state described by Khellus as when "The Gods howl like wolves at silent gates" If (when?) that happens, then the possibilities of Redemption and Damnation no longer exist and all souls fall into Oblivion upon death. This is the ultimate goal of the Consult. The Inchoroi know themselves damned - the topoi, the glimpse into the Outside, that exists in Golgotterath leaves little ambiguity as to what their after-life fate is. As for the Men, well at first they were sorcerers of the Maengedda and as we know in the pre-Khellus era everyone believed sorcerers were damned. After all the crimes they've commited throughout the millenia, they certainly are now. But if they seal the world, they won't have to suffer the eternal consequences of their actions. [/quote:1r0fe5yz] Scott Bakker is apparently a student of philosophy and it shows. All this metaphysical claptrap is absurd. Why would aliens be bound by moral considerations when they've never burdened themselves with such in the past ? Look no further than the Dunyein themselves - they are totally amoral. And damnation is only possible when you have a moral compass to measure yourself against. Besides the assumption that there are gods is annoying. The way I see it the Inchoroi were/are entirely devoted to the Teknhe (genetics and regular science - in fact they're Bakker's Tleilaxus - as the Dunyein are his Bene Gesserit/Mentats) - which makes them materialists. So for them to entertain an existantial crisis is simply implausible. G. view post


posted 25 Jan 2006, 10:01 by zarathustra, Peralogue

I think Kellhus has become too powerful by the end of TTT as Grallon says his mastery of the Gnosis will be immense in twenty years. He also seems now to be invulnerable to Chorea if I read correctly the battle he has with the Cishaurim. It seems clear that he has the beating of the two remaining Inchori though the No-God will still remain a problem. Check out also a Consult member called Shaenora(sic?) who will no doubt cause some problems in Aspect Emperor. However the Three Seas itself seems in less good shape. The Holy War will have all but destoyed all active armies in the region. Plus the two most powerful schools have been devastated/destroyed. This would leave all nations vulnerable to being overrun by Sranc. Khellus would have to immedaitely start trainning all the Three Seas children for war. It would be my guess that Aspect Emperor will begin with Kellhus hard pressed and needing to go to Zeum to persuade them to lend their armies in support. But then he can probably teleport himself there... view post


posted 25 Jan 2006, 12:01 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="zarathustra":1ind63ur]... However the Three Seas itself seems in less good shape. The Holy War will have all but destoyed all active armies in the region. Plus the two most powerful schools have been devastated/destroyed. This would leave all nations vulnerable to being overrun by Sranc. Khellus would have to immedaitely start trainning all the Three Seas children for war. It would be my guess that Aspect Emperor will begin with Kellhus hard pressed and needing to go to Zeum to persuade them to lend their armies in support. But then he can probably teleport himself there...[/quote:1ind63ur] Khellus' goal is clearly to harness the Three Seas completely under his control. No doubt he'll resurrect the old Empire and probably merge it with the Thousand Temple - creating, in effect, a theocracy. The surviving schools will likely be absorbed by the Mandate. There's also the Dunyein themselves to consider. We already know Khellus sees them as limited - but still useful. Yet I don't see how he could go back there and convince them to work for him. I suppose he could force them now that he has the Gnosis... On the other hand the Consult is actively looking for them so perhaps they will find Ishual first and use them - or destroy them... And there's Achamian whom we know survive since he writes the Chronicles of the Holy War (interestingly one of the last entry of his chronicles mention he has to watch what he writes ... under surveillance I guess). Besides being a chronicler I can't see what kind of meaningful role he might have in the future. He's now considered an heretic and an outcast wizard. Unless Bakker tries to spin some more threads with the whore ? I hope not - this was getting tedious already by the end of The Warrior Prophet. One unknown is the Scylvendi. Since Cnaiur survived my guess is he'll federate the remnants of his people and oppose the new God-Emperor. Perhaps with Achamian' help. We shall see. G. view post


posted 25 Jan 2006, 15:01 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

A few things to reply to: Yes Scott is a student of Philosophy, he was/is persuing a Ph.D in the subject. The Metaphysics of the world, in my opinion, are very well thought out and interwoven with some of the more "traditional" conventions of fantasy. (i.e. gods, etc) On Kellhus: Yes, Kellhus killed skin-spies willy-nilly. Skin Spies are ultimately limited creations of the Consult, they are good weapons but when you can see them for exactly what they are their prime advantage, hiding in plain sight, is gone. Kellhus did not go "toe-to-toe" with an Old Name. Aurang was inhabiting a shell at the time, as Achamian warned Kellhus Aurang was only capable of using Glamors, etc while inhabiting that shell and look at what he still managed to do. His Glamors and tricks managed to have Kelhus briefly lose control of Legion. I think that is a pretty impressive feat. Even when Aurang is inhabiting the Synthese as a shell he is no where near his full power. Wait until he goes up against the Inchoroi in his true form. They both have the Gnosis, obviously Kellhus appears to be able to master it in a different direction with his superior analytical mind but I'm still not convinces he is going to be utterly invincible. I'll have to re-read that final battle against the Cishaurim but I don't recollect seeing anything to suggest he was immune to Chorae. A few other things: -The Ancient North had several powerful Gnostic Schools. Will the Mandate absorb the other schools or otherwise teach the Gnosis to existing Angagic Sorcerors? Maybe but this isn't a given by any means. -Unified under the Aspect-Emperor the Three-Sea's will probably be better unified militarily for the Second Apocalypse than the Ancient North was during the first, but remember Sranc control half of a continent and during the First Apocalypse the No-God's call brought in the bulk of the Sranc from elsewhere in the world. I think the Consult will have a truly massive army to put on the field when the time comes. Sranc will darken the horizons and carpet the fields so to speak. Plus we have Bashrag and Wracu (although there apparently aren't very many Wracu left) to factor in as well as the Consult Generals (Gnostic Sorcerors), the Non-men Erratics, and the two surviving Inchoroi as well as whatever other creations they come up with. (I'm still expecting more than one surprise.) -The Scylvendi are a wild card. They may be men but they fought under the banner of the Consult and the No-God during the First Apocalypse. Lokung is the No-God, so will they side with their dead but ressurected God this time around as well? I have a feeling they will. view post


posted 25 Jan 2006, 18:01 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="Entropic_existence":1ltgal2n]A few things to reply to: Yes Scott is a student of Philosophy, he was/is persuing a Ph.D in the subject. The Metaphysics of the world, in my opinion, are very well thought out and interwoven with some of the more "traditional" conventions of fantasy. (i.e. gods, etc)...[/quote:1ltgal2n] I didn't say the cosmology wasn't coherent or plausible from Earwa's inhabitants point of view. But this is a primitive world whose understanding of the universe is limited. My point was that it isn't credible for the Inchoroi, who are amoral materialists through & through, to buy in all this cosmology. They *are* from the outside - they know better. Why would they start fearing for their souls just because they landed on that particular world ?! G. view post


posted 25 Jan 2006, 21:01 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="Grallon":1pomx2sn] I didn't say the cosmology wasn't coherent or plausible from Earwa's inhabitants point of view. But this is a primitive world whose understanding of the universe is limited. My point was that it isn't credible for the Inchoroi, who are amoral materialists through & through, to buy in all this cosmology. They *are* from the outside - they know better. Why would they start fearing for their souls just because they landed on that particular world ?! G.[/quote:1pomx2sn] The idea that led to the first Apocalypse, about Redemption of the Soul by sealing off the world from the Outside, was that of the Mengaeda (sp?), the Gnostic School of Human Sorcerors who would become the bulk of the Consult. While Earwa may be primitive in many cases, I think their understanding of the way things work is relatively sound. Perhaps it is a case where belief shapes reality. We do know their are Agencies in the Outside who will prey upon or Redeeem mortal souls when those souls pass to the Outside. I'm not sure if the Inchoroi fear for their own souls, I'll have to go back through TTT on a more thorough re-read for that or perhaps ask Scott in the Q&A section of the forum, or whether it was simply their knowledge that led to the Consults ideas. The Inchoroi definitly have a better understanding of the Outside and the way things work, perhaps, if the Inchoroi do fear for their souls it is because they know that be coming to Earwa they are subject to the same rules. While they are in a sense amoral (I don't really think they are amoral their world view/morality is just totally alien to ours), and they know that souls are subject to the Agencies of the Outside, they would do what they can to prevent damnation. From what I have understood there are essentially three things that can happen when you die: 1)Your Soul fades into Oblivion. 2)You are "damned", and your Soul taken to be eternally tormented by the crueler forces of the Outside 3)You are Redeemed. One of the Benign Agencies of the Outside takes your Soul under it's protection. If we assume these are all very real cases, which it is my understanding that they are, and that the Inchoroi have souls (they work Sorcery so they must have Souls) then upon their deaths, when their Souls again pass into the Outside, they are subject to the same rules as everyone else. They hope for Oblivion because there is no chance for Redemption in the conventional sense. They passed through the Outside in some sort of craft for lack of a better word so I do not think they are native Agencies of the Outside, they simply travelled through it. :) Anyway thats my take on the whole thing from what I read, that was sort of rambling anf incoherent in parts but that is what happens when I write as I am thinking. view post


posted 25 Jan 2006, 22:01 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="Entropic_existence":2fm2wc7q]... They hope for Oblivion because there is no chance for Redemption in the conventional sense. They passed through the Outside in some sort of craft for lack of a better word so I do not think they are native Agencies of the Outside, they simply travelled through it. [/quote:2fm2wc7q] Oh well if there are 'real' deities involved... I understood the Outside to be a simple misrepresentation by the humans of Earwa - much like our own heliocentric view before Galileo. And I recall a discussion between Achamian and Esmenet about this topic where he told her the non-men beleived the stars to be other suns far away (which they are) instead of holes to the 'Outside'. And so I assumed that with that and aliens woven into the story the rest was mere superstition. A materialist' point of view as it were :P G. view post


posted 26 Jan 2006, 00:01 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Well, even the Non-men believe in the Outside and the Agencies that reside there, so I do think that the cosmology is real :) At least with the way Scott has talked on the Q&A forum I have no reason to doubt it anyway. view post


posted 27 Jan 2006, 03:01 by Andrew, Peralogue

Read a bunch of the posts and wanted to throw in 2 cents... Grallon There most definitely IS an outside. There is no basis whatsoever to say that the Inchoroi are 'amoral materialists' and don't believe in the Outside and the ultimate reality of eternal damnation vs. salvation. They practice MAGIC!!! The existence of magic absolutely disproves any materialistic worldview. Further, there is no basis for asserting that they do not see their actions as they are. Indeed, they revel and exult in depravity, anguish and horror. Their entire project of extermination is for the purpose of saving their souls from eternal damnation. i don't see how this can even be a question. It is fully dealt with in the book and actually provides a plausible basis for the Inchoroi/Consult quest to exterminate humanity. Unlike the usual fantasy novel where some dark lord just wants to destroy everything because he/she/it is a dark lord. I don't see what else could have lured the Maengecca to resume the work of the Inchoroi. Incidentally, Look for Iyokus to join the ranks of the Consult. He would definitely destroy all humanity to achieve the goal of saving his soul from damnation. The possibility of damnation/salvation is further confirmed in the sequence from Warrior Prophet when Iyokus first summons a demon with the Daimos. Prior to that he had never summoned a demon and the demon said, (in effect), 'do you know what you've done, now you are damned etc.etc.'. Iyokus' response was that he didn't care as he was damned in any event as a sorceror. The question of Gods etc. in the world of earwa is similarly obvious. even if you accept that life, love, joy, etc. can be explained by purely material causes, how in the world can magic exist without a God or something essentially analogous? Atoms and molecules that respond to certain words spoken and unspoken according to purely natural phenomenon that evolved over a billion years?? don't think so... Conphas short changed?? how many times did he survive almost certain death only to survive improbably? His death has been assured for a long time. how could Kellus permit him to survive? His survival would be a standing rebuke to Kellus' supremecy. If not the sword of Saubon, then the sword of Kellus. Someone mentioned Kellus having the next 20 yrs to train the remaining Dunyain in the Gnosis. This would never happen. You have to consider why he stabbed his father. Because his father remained MERELY a Dunyain. Ultimately (as has been discussed elsewhere on this board) the Dunyain are no better than the Inchoroi/consult. Ultimately the Dunyain will pay eternally for their sin. Ultimately the use people solely for their own purposes. Consider their treatment of 'defectives' etc. They use men for their own ends utterly callously. Kellus foresaw that ultimately Moenghus would have become a consult agent because Moenghus would be compelled by logic to accept the Consult mission as his own. Dunyain logic would grasp that ultimately only the Consult's mission is compatible with the personal interests of each Dunyain. Entropic existence has the correct line on the so called show-down with Aurang. Consider also that the Inchoroi have other magics at their disposal (recall comment about how easy it was to walk between wards of another metaphysic or something like that when Esmi was possessed). Re Kellus & Chorae - no not invulnerable. Just singularly adept at catching arrows and devising means of evading being stuck by a Chorae. Re Mandate acceptance of Kellus: we don't know what happened between Akka being carried off and his return. Any mandate desire to control Kellus will have been swiftly disarmed by his gnostic power/dunyain abilities. I'm sure he would have no difficilty handling them. consider if you were them and 1st faced with revelation of skin spy among you, and then faced with Kellus' mastery of the gnosis in a matter of months. think you aren't going to change your tune??? [b:2e5thn59]my question for you all[/b:2e5thn59]:notwithstanding what i said re Iyokus joining the consult, is there any plausible explanation for Achamian's survival other than Iyokus' death??? This was an awesome book for me. I wouldnt' say that i liked it more than the other 2 but definitely as much. Pacing of 1st part didn't feel slow to me at all. However, neither did pacing of 1st part of Darkness that Comes Before, and many have complained that the pacing of that was slow. My only complaints: Definitely agree that "death came swirling down" usage was massively excessive and seriously annoying in 2nd half of book. Also i thought there was too much discussion about how Kellus becomes the Ground for those around him etc. That concept is well established and i thought there was a bit much pushing of it. view post


posted 27 Jan 2006, 04:01 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="Andrew":v7zzo19w]...The existence of magic absolutely disproves any materialistic worldview.[/quote:v7zzo19w] Don't be absurd. Genetic mutations enabling energy channeling is far more plausible then deities & other religious nonsense. [quote="Andrew":v7zzo19w]... i don't see how this can even be a question. It is fully dealt with in the book and actually provides a plausible basis for the Inchoroi/Consult quest to exterminate humanity.[/quote:v7zzo19w] It was neither fully dealt with nor obvious. Imagine aliens arriving here - do you seriously think they would start feering the muslim god or the christian hell ? It's ludicrous. :roll: G. view post


posted 27 Jan 2006, 05:01 by Spamoram, Candidate

[quote="Grallon":2ff55zw5][quote="Andrew":2ff55zw5]...The existence of magic absolutely disproves any materialistic worldview.[/quote:2ff55zw5] Don't be absurd. Genetic mutations enabling energy channeling is far more plausible then deities & other religious nonsense. [quote="Andrew":2ff55zw5]... i don't see how this can even be a question. It is fully dealt with in the book and actually provides a plausible basis for the Inchoroi/Consult quest to exterminate humanity.[/quote:2ff55zw5] It was neither fully dealt with nor obvious. Imagine aliens arriving here - do you seriously think they would start feering the muslim god or the christian hell ? It's ludicrous. :roll: G.[/quote:2ff55zw5] Please, please, please refrain from using phrases such as, "don't be absurd/stupid/dumb" to start off discussions. That only serves to raise the hackles of other people who then will feel the need to "defend" themselves. Rational discourse will then be discarded in favour of 1 upping each other. Now, I'm as non-religious as the next guy but the idea that a genetic mutation allowing for energy manipulation is somehow less far fetched than deities existing seems strange to me. Now, seeing as we're reading [i:2ff55zw5]fantasy[/i:2ff55zw5], the possibility of magic and deities, even genetic mutations to manipulate energy are all quite plausible in my book. In this fantasy world... I think you should stop trying to relate the real world with a [i:2ff55zw5]fantasy[/i:2ff55zw5] world. The real world has to operate by following the natural laws. In a fantasy setting, the author is free to create his own laws thus enriching the world. So ya, in the real world, we can't prove that gods exist. Neither does magic. However, the author of a fantasy fiction is free to create a world full of interesting deities, magic, monsters. Perhaps even having rules differing from World to World. That's what makes it so fun and why we read them...or so I hope. view post


posted 27 Jan 2006, 07:01 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="Spamoram":2z2ubqgx]... So ya, in the real world, we can't prove that gods exist. Neither does magic. However, the author of a fantasy fiction is free to create a world full of interesting deities, magic, monsters. Perhaps even having rules differing from World to World. That's what makes it so fun and why we read them...or so I hope.[/quote:2z2ubqgx] Spare me the lecture - I'm aware of the conventions in the fantasy genre. Need I remind you the author went to great lenght to portray a realistic world ? G. view post


posted 27 Jan 2006, 19:01 by Spamoram, Candidate

I don't know why you're being so belligerent. I suppose you are correct. Genetic mutants with the power to create force fields and communicate to dreamers is much more [i:2bkwtwyt]real[/i:2bkwtwyt]. Spare me the attitude. view post


posted 27 Jan 2006, 20:01 by Jora, Commoner

It's a different thing to believe that there are beings in the Outside that could be called gods than to specifically believe in the Solitary God or the Hundred Gods. We don't know all the religious opinions of the bad guys. view post


posted 27 Jan 2006, 22:01 by rycanada, Peralogue

The Inchoroi came to Earwa, realized the existence of, and source of magic. But they don't approach it like a religion - to them, the Outside is more like an alternate dimension. They observed mankind (or at first, Nonmenkind) and realized that they were windows to the outside, just as Achamian describes with his light trick at Xinemus' camp. Because men and nonmen are windows to the Outside, they are able to do magic - and susceptible to damnation (i.e. they have souls that will have a fate in the Outside after their deaths). Unfortunately for the Inchoroi, upon reaching Earwa they realized that they themselves (or at least, a few of them) were also "windows to the Outside." Thus, they were also susceptible to "damnation" But the Inchoroi have a very materialist approach to everything - thus, rather than seeing transcendence in contact with the Outside, they see it as a kind of parallel dimension. Rather than try to redeem themselves, they would prefer to cut this dimension off from that one, to avoid the dangers of beings they cannot hope to dominate, and fates they cannot hope to alter. To a certain extent, they treat emanations of the Outside like we would treat radiation; occasionally something to be used, but mostly a phenomenon to be controlled and eliminated. Their natures are so corrupt that they cannot approach the universe with a real grasp of spiritual philosophy. view post


posted 28 Jan 2006, 04:01 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

rycanada summed it up in a manner similar to how I would have, although I don't see it really as an alternate dimension, I see the world and the Outside as being a little more tied together than that but it is a useful analogy all the same. As for Achamian's survival... I'm pretty much stumped. :) Something happened and I'm hoping it may be explained later, if not sometimes a little mystery is a good thing, it fules speculation and debate after all. :) A note on Iyokus, I'd have to check TWP again but I'm pretty sure he had summoned Demons before, I don't know if anyone could be a relative expert of the Daimos without that. I thought it was the fact that he had summoned such a powerful demon, one with some "authority" and such in the Outside. Ensuring that that particular demon, or one of his kin or clan or whatever, would be sure to snatch his soul when he died. Some discussion on the world. Yes Scott has attempted to craft a fantasy world that is intrinsically realistic, but it is still epic fantasy. Sorcery operates on a very, very metaphysical level. We have the Few, and the Onta, and those who deal with Sorcery are "bruised" aka the Mark. We have seen direct agents of the Outside, Demons. They are not "aliens" in the sense the Inchroi are, this is quite clear. Earwa is a fantasy world that draws alot of inspiration from our own, the realness of the world is because Scott didn't want another cookie cutter young man becomes king type of fantasy. He wanted to convey something gritty and real while remaining in the scope of the fantastic. I think he ha sachieved this quite well. I for one fully enjoy the philosophical aspects of the series, it's the reason why TDTCB hooked me so thoroughly. :) And please folks, lets remain civil shall we. view post


posted 28 Jan 2006, 04:01 by rycanada, Peralogue

Oh, just to add one more thing - I think the line of reasoning of the Inchoroi that I charted above is also the reason the Dunyain would side with the Consult eventually, in trying to close the world - the influence of the Outside would just be a difficult, unpredictable variable that should be eliminated. Hence Kellhus' actions are on some level a renunciation of the amorality of the Dunyain, although what Kellhus' idea of morality is will be very interesting to see. view post


posted 28 Jan 2006, 04:01 by Twayleph, Auditor

Regarding the Dûnyain siding with the Consult : yes, Khellus said much the same to his father. The Dûnyain [i:1v4ji4xc]have[/i:1v4ji4xc] to be in complete control of circumstances and shut out all that is uncontrollable. Their shut themselves from their emotions, which they call Legion. They shut themselves from the wilderness of the world, inside the walls of Ishüal. It only follows they would shut themselves from the Outside by sealing the world... And perhaps that's why Scott allowed Kellhus to grow so powerful...With the School of Maengedda, the No-God, Aurang and Aurax, millions of Sranc [i:1v4ji4xc]and[/i:1v4ji4xc] the Dûnyain siding against the Three-Seas...they got to have at least stand a chance :) Although first the Consult would have to prove to the Dûnyain that the Outside is real...Even in the face of sorcery, Kellhus didn't admit it at first. view post


posted 28 Jan 2006, 05:01 by rycanada, Peralogue

I think the Ciphrang might not be much help against the No-god, either. I just can't see them giving the Three Seas a big leg-up for that. view post


posted 28 Jan 2006, 16:01 by Andrew, Peralogue

i agree with some things that Rycanada said on the Inchoroi. However, recall the comment when Esmenet was possessed, "walking between wards is easy when their author practises other arcana". So the author of the wards would have been Kellus and they would have been Gnostic wards. And i'm sure that neither Anagogic sorcery nor the Psukhe could walk through the Gnosis. So maybe the Inchoroi had their own sorceries from long before the fall? I suppose they might also recall the Aporos though. But i disagree that the Inchoroi are not also themselves a connecting point to the outside, or that only a few of them are. Why should we say that they have no souls? Does that not distinguish them from their creations (bashrag, sranc etc.?) How else could they fear damnation? Maybe they came to earth deliberately to destroy souls? Why say that they are 'materialists' when we know that they have made all sorts of progress in studying the relationship between the outside and 'real' world? They have even managed to somehow bring a portion of the outside nearer to the world in the Pit of Obscenities. Why suppose that this was discovered only after the fall? Why could they not have been perfectly aware of their situation for millenium only the solution took long to find? Seems to me that whatever the rules of redemption, the Inchoroi have gone so far that they cannot hope for redemption. They are irredeemable. In any event, they have so twisted and focussed their natures onto cruelty and carnality that perhaps at this stage they cannot undertake the work of redemption. It's like a psychopath deciding to learn empathy. not possible. Keep in mind that all sorcerors believe themselves damned from the very fact of practicing sorcery, yet they persist. That does not render the sorcerors materialists. as to the question of genetic mutations etc., i mean that isn't at all likely in my view. Sorcery is only produced by saying the right words. Basically they tap into this formula or structure to unleash this power. And the same rules apply to every Anagogic Sorceror and every Gnostic Sorceror. if there were a random genetic mutation that allowed the channeling of energy, the processes should not be identical between sorcerors except sorcerors of the same lineal descent who would share the mutation. And the manifestation of the "sorcery" should differ. But all the Spires produce the same stuff because they are using the same Cants. How could there be any need to comply with a rigid formula of utterances and thoughts if all they are doing is directing some innate flow? A man born of the few is utterly powerless until he is taught the words, and it is the Fact of the Words that to me says, you are dealing in a universe with Deity. view post


posted 28 Jan 2006, 21:01 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="Andrew":1211l5kt]... as to the question of genetic mutations etc., i mean that isn't at all likely in my view. Sorcery is only produced by saying the right words. Basically they tap into this formula or structure to unleash this power. And the same rules apply to every Anagogic Sorceror and every Gnostic Sorceror. if there were a random genetic mutation that allowed the channeling of energy, the processes should not be identical between sorcerors except sorcerors of the same lineal descent who would share the mutation. And the manifestation of the "sorcery" should differ. But all the Spires produce the same stuff because they are using the same Cants. How could there be any need to comply with a rigid formula of utterances and thoughts if all they are doing is directing some innate flow? A man born of the few is utterly powerless until he is taught the words, and it is the Fact of the Words that to me says, you are dealing in a universe with Deity.[/quote:1211l5kt] And yet there *is* a distinction between the few and everyone else - one that has physical manifestations (Achamian's memories about his own 'revelation' - where his vision changed and he felt dizzy). In other words the ability to perform sorcery is rooted in the flesh - ergo a genetic pre-disposition. The inhabitants of Earwa don't know about genetics - but we do. I see the need for cants as a focus mechanism - much like a turbin is necessary to transform the kinetic energy of a river into electricity. In other words this is but one way of acheiving the channeling I was refering to. And in turn this implies there could be other ways. Besides the idea of 'tooth fairies' or other assorted bearded figures hovering around Earwa and picking up random individuals to gift them with the ability to do sorcery is distasteful. It would imply a negation of much that we, the readers, know about the Universe. Finally regarding the Inchoroi and their late-blooming morality, I still find it unbeleivable that such superior beings (they keep refering to Earwa's inhabitants as 'vermin'), would suddenly realize the existance of this other dimension after coming to Earwa. Logically if there is a metaphysical 'Outside' then it shouldn't be limited to that world alone. Therefore why would they be more affected by it/subjected to it while on Earwa ? At some point (in TWP or TTT) Aurang expresses hi hatred for his exile-world and recalls 'Home'. The way the author wrote it Aurang didn't seem to mourn something dead & lost but rather the fact he's cut off. This in turn suggest that on their homeworld the Inchoroi were not in the grip of any existantial crisis - ergo they weren't in contact with other dimensions there. And as I said above, if there's an 'Outisde' it exists throughout the universe - not only in the vicinity of Earwa. On the other end one could speculate that they had already passed the point of no return before even leaving their world; that they had 'sealed themselves out' already. But then why leave at all ? Another step in their (presumably) unending quest for ever keener obsenities ? Very well, but if that was the case, why destroy the vermin ? Why not enslave them to use them as playthings ? And so we're back to the metaphysical explanation: the humans & non-men are windows to the Outside and as such represent a threat. What kind of threat exactly ? Are these 'windows' some sort of cosmic vacuum cleaner mouths who'll suck out all Inchoroi pus ? Or, alternately, disgorge legions of shining avenging angels ? If the Inchoroi are so vile that they offend the very heavens - why weren't they smitten ? How exactly is damnation more an issue here than it was on their homeworld ? Ah yes here the seal is not watertight yet. This is what I call a logical loophole - or a vicious circle as it were... But let's assume the Consult succeeds and slaughters all the other sentient beings of Earwa; then logically the threat from the 'Outside' disappears; and so does the Inchoroi's damnation... Therefore if one's salvation and/or damnation depends solely on the movement of doors it doesn't speak well for the 'good side' does it ? As far as I'm aware the only way the Inchoroi can avoid damnation is by cheating death. So far they've apparently been successfull in doing so through the use of the Teckne - by preserving/regenerating their physical bodies. If that is the case then all they need to do is keep on being forgotten - thus deflecting the unwanted attention of those who would destroy them. And under that light the metaphysical subtext becomes moot. G. view post


posted 28 Jan 2006, 22:01 by Twayleph, Auditor

I'll reply to some of the points raised here. First , Scott has already stated that the ability to be one of the Few is hereditary (even more so for Nonmen than for Men), so it is a genetic trait of some sort - yet it is also tied to the soul, since soulless beings cannot work sorcery. Regarding the "late-blooming morality of the Inchoroi". What makes you assume that the Inchoroi only discovered the dimension of the Outside when they arrived in Eärwa ? We know so little of them, for all we know they're on some sort of anti-Gods crusade, travelling from world to world and sealing all of them shut. Their perpeption of worship is entirely different from our own - as it should be, since they are aliens. Regarding why Men being a window to the Outside is a threat. Because then the "punitive" Gods can draw the Inchoroi's souls upon death - think of it as a vacuum cleaner mouth if that makes you happy - and torment them for their sins. Even if the Inchoroi are amoral and materialists, it won't stop the Gods from judging them guilty and condemning them to an eternity of suffering - assuming, of course, that Gods really do exist in Scott's world, and it seems they do. Yes, if the Consult kills off enough humans (I don't think they need to kill all of them, just enough so that the Gods no longer have any effective influence inside the world), then for all practical purposes Damnation and Salvation no longer exist inside this particular world. You say it doesn't speak well for the side of good, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean. It says somewhere in the book that "the Gods entrusted Men with the world". It's Men's responsability to make sure the world can't be sealed shut, and if they fail, then they doom their race to Oblivion. Just like in Tolkien's world, the possible (perhaps even eventual) triumph of Evil and amorality is part of Eärwa, I think. [quote:6ldn2ywj]As far as I'm aware the only way the Inchoroi can avoid damnation is by cheating death.[/quote:6ldn2ywj] Cheating death isn't the only way for the Inchoroi to avoid damnation. How many times was this repeated in this topic alone ? [i:6ldn2ywj]If the Consult succeeds, if the world is shut, damnation is no longer an option. DAMNATION IS NO LONGER AN OPTION.[/i:6ldn2ywj] And it doesn't seem as though they can cheat death forever. Aurang seemed to think his body had slowly degraded over the ages, so perhaps one day the Tekne's patches and avatars will fail and the Inchoroi will truly die. [quote:6ldn2ywj]Finally regarding the Inchoroi and their late-blooming morality, I still find it unbeleivable that such superior beings (they keep refering to Earwa's inhabitants as 'vermin'),[/quote:6ldn2ywj] Oh, so calling others 'vermin' makes one superior, does it? And in what sense do you mean 'superior' ? Does having more powerful technology make one morally superior to another? [quote:6ldn2ywj] If the Inchoroi are so vile that they offend the very heavens - why weren't they smitten ?[/quote:6ldn2ywj] Actually they [i:6ldn2ywj]were[/i:6ldn2ywj] smitten - during the Cûno-Inchoroi wars. They passed from hundreds of thousands of Inchoroi to [i:6ldn2ywj]two[/i:6ldn2ywj] survivors, I'd say that's pretty brutal, no? Of course, since you seem to loathe the idea that Gods objectively exist in Eärwa, you probably won't see that as a divine action, but a case could be made that since the Nonmen also represent a door into the Outside and seem to have their own forms of worship, their victory over the Inchoroi might've been divinely inspired. view post


posted 28 Jan 2006, 23:01 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="Twayleph":gc2jr6xg]... Regarding the "late-blooming morality of the Inchoroi". What makes you assume that the Inchoroi only discovered the dimension of the Outside when they arrived in Eärwa ? We know so little of them, for all we know they're on some sort of anti-Gods crusade, travelling from world to world and sealing all of them shut. Their perpeption of worship is entirely different from our own - as it should be, since they are aliens.[/quote:gc2jr6xg] Apparently they didn't choose to come to Earwa since they crashlanded on it ! All we know is they were going somewhere and got stranded. [quote="Twayleph":gc2jr6xg]... Yes, if the Consult kills off enough humans (I don't think they need to kill all of them, just enough so that the Gods no longer have any effective influence inside the world), then for all practical purposes Damnation and Salvation no longer exist inside this particular world. You say it doesn't speak well for the side of good, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean. [/quote:gc2jr6xg] For a principle to be true it has to be such in every conceivable circumstances. If we find one instance where this isn't the case then the principle ceases to be absolute and, logically, becomes relative. Therefore everything that derives from it is just so much smoke. We already know judgement and retribution is conditional to the degree of influence the 'Outside' has on Earwa (and elsewhere - presumably) - therefore closing up the doorways between the 2 (?) planes of existance effectively cancels out the impact of said judgement. In such a case what would be a damnable offense becomes nothing more than a distraction; thus effectively making the original principle false. [quote="Twayleph":gc2jr6xg]... Cheating death isn't the only way for the Inchoroi to avoid damnation. How many times was this repeated in this topic alone ? [i:gc2jr6xg]If the Consult succeeds, if the world is shut, damnation is no longer an option. DAMNATION IS NO LONGER AN OPTION.[/i:gc2jr6xg][/quote:gc2jr6xg] Thank you for illustrating my point. [quote="Twayleph":gc2jr6xg]...Oh, so calling others 'vermin' makes one superior, does it? And in what sense do you mean 'superior' ? Does having more powerful technology make one morally superior to another?[/quote:gc2jr6xg] Having superior knowledge does - witness the Dunyain's easy mastery over the world-born... [quote="Twayleph":gc2jr6xg]...Of course, since you seem to loathe the idea that Gods objectively exist in Eärwa, you probably won't see that as a divine action, but a case could be made that since the Nonmen also represent a door into the Outside and seem to have their own forms of worship, their victory over the Inchoroi might've been divinely inspired.[/quote:gc2jr6xg] Taken at face value I would have prefered a self enclosed world with no outside intereference. This would have been much more logically plausible than this one - where you have two contradicting realities: Earwa's home-grown metaphysics and the aliens' materialism. G. view post


posted 01 Feb 2006, 04:02 by rycanada, Peralogue

To clarify, when I described the Inchoroi are "materialist" I don't mean that they don't acknowledge the existence of the Outside, nor that they "caught religion". Upon reaching Earwa, the Inchoroi recognized the influence of the Outside, but expressly didn't "catch religion" - they approach even the Outside in a materialist way (as a source of the various sorcerous phenomena, and a dwelling place of powerful entities). For mankind, however, the Outside appears to be something more; as well as being the font from which the gods spring, Achamian's candle illustration seems to indicate a kind of spiritual transcendence. I think this shows that there aren't "multiple worldviews" competing here (at least not with regard to the facts of existence). The influence of the Outside is plainly essential to the story of Earwa. view post


posted 01 Feb 2006, 19:02 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="rycanada":3j5vrm1v]... For mankind, however, the Outside appears to be something more; as well as being the font from which the gods spring, Achamian's candle illustration seems to indicate a kind of spiritual transcendence. I think this shows that there aren't "multiple worldviews" competing here (at least not with regard to the facts of existence). The influence of the Outside is plainly essential to the story of Earwa.[/quote:3j5vrm1v] I see what you are saying - same reality seen from 2 different points of view. But it still doesn't answer my question about the aliens' sudden realization (by accident at that !) about the impact of the Outside upon their own survival. Anyhow, until such time as Scott chooses to enlighten us with the Inchoroi's backstory we'll remain in the dark and I'll go on cringing at what I see as a contradiction. *shrug* G. view post


posted 01 Feb 2006, 22:02 by Twayleph, Auditor

I'll re-state a question I've already asked you Grallon : What makes you assume that the Inchoroi only discovered the dimension of the Outside when they arrived in Eärwa ? As you yourself indicated we're still in the dark concerning the backstory of the Inchoroi, so what makes you so certain they weren't already aware of that before? And why would you see that as a contradiction? If the Afterlife is as [i:282o4qha]real[/i:282o4qha] as it seems to be in Eärwa, then they can believe in it and react to it after their own manner, and still remain materialists. They see no Good or Evil, they see only the mechanisms by which souls are handled, and the way to affect that mechanism in order to make sure they won't suffer. They try to exterminate Men and Nonmen, not necessarily because they think it's the right thing to do, but because they are driven by the need to avoid pain (especially eternal suffering) and the Apocalypse is their only way to achieve that. view post


posted 01 Feb 2006, 22:02 by rycanada, Peralogue

I think that the Inchoroi discovered the existence of the Outside (and the fate of their souls, which they seek to avoid) on Earwa because of sorcery. Without such obvious proof of the Outside influencing the world, they could have denied the existence of damnation - or even the soul - but once you add sorcery into the mix, it's undeniable. Their reaction? To avoid pain, work to seal off the Outside. view post


posted 02 Feb 2006, 02:02 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="rycanada":3r4o2i44]I think that the Inchoroi discovered the existence of the Outside (and the fate of their souls, which they seek to avoid) on Earwa because of sorcery. Without such obvious proof of the Outside influencing the world, they could have denied the existence of damnation - or even the soul - but once you add sorcery into the mix, it's undeniable. Their reaction? To avoid pain, work to seal off the Outside.[/quote:3r4o2i44] If the phenomenon is universal then no matter how numerous or strong the denials - its effects would have been witnessed/experienced before by them - in one form or another. Furthermore, destroying all other sentient beings from the surface of Earwa won't make the Outside go away nor prevent the Inchoroi's newly found souls from being damned once they die. This sealing business simply makes no sense. Either God exist and you're damned no matter what you do - or if you can actually avoid damnation then there's no God. Again, from Aurang's own musings, his people didn't seem to have had any previous experience of damnation before being stranded. ----- You know, the one thing that grabed my attention when I first started reading the [i:3r4o2i44]Darkness That Comes Before[/i:3r4o2i44] was how realistic fantasy could be made: mythical creatures created by genetic manipulation, Khellus' superior abilities explained by his training, the Ennemy as aliens from another world. Even sorcery could be (could have been) rationalized without calling upon metaphysical speculations. Oh well. I'll follow the series through naturally but I'm disapointed by the way things have turned. G. view post


posted 02 Feb 2006, 04:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="Grallon":2cyvh6rd] This sealing business simply makes no sense. Either God exist and you're damned no matter what you do - or if you can actually avoid damnation then there's no God. Again, from Aurang's own musings, his people didn't seem to have had any previous experience of damnation before being stranded. [/quote:2cyvh6rd] There are many agencies in the Outside: Gods, demons, etc. The belief is when you die one of three things happens to your soul: 1)Oblivion 2)Damnation (tormented at the hands of nasty agencies of the Outside) or 3)Salvation (through the direct attention of a God or the intervention of one of your ancestors) It appears that the Inchoroi have discovered (or are actively lieing to use the Consult for unknown ends?) That the Gods, etc only have influence over Earwa because mortal souls act as "windows" to the Outside. [quote="Grallon":2cyvh6rd] You know, the one thing that grabed my attention when I first started reading the [i:2cyvh6rd]Darkness That Comes Before[/i:2cyvh6rd] was how realistic fantasy could be made: mythical creatures created by genetic manipulation, Khellus' superior abilities explained by his training, the Ennemy as aliens from another world. Even sorcery could be (could have been) rationalized without calling upon metaphysical speculations. [/quote:2cyvh6rd] For some reason it just seems to me that you were taking the book in a completely different light from how I was. Yes it was a dark, gritty, and intrinsically realistic fantasy... but it was still a fantasy. We had talk of Sorcery and Philosophy and Metaphysics right out of the gate. The Prince of Nothing has been incredibly tied in with metaphysical concepts from the first book and through the second, they've always been there. And Scott has been up front in saying on this board that TTT would delve directly into the metaphysics that make sorcery possible. Sure there is probably a hereditary/genetic basis for the Few (Scott has alluded to as much I believe) but Sorcery has still been a metaphysical concept in his world. view post


posted 02 Feb 2006, 04:02 by rycanada, Peralogue

Sorcery had to come from somewhere. I think explaining the supernatural as a window to the metaphysical works very well. But more importantly, I think there IS a good explanation for what's going on. This might not be right (i.e. what R. Scott Bakker ultimately reveals) but it's at least a coherent case: The Outside can be investigated scientifically (i.e. with hypothesis confirmation / contradiction), and it appears what Achamian described as the "light of the Outside" enters into the real world by "peeking through" human beings (i.e. the soul). So it seems to make sense that it doesn't "peek through" in the void of space - only on worlds (hence world-specific influence of the Outside). Now, the Inchoroi are aware of the influence of the Outside, the existence of the soul (at least among the highest-order Inchoroi), and they're highly concerned with avoiding pain and gaining pleasure (i.e. they want to avoid damnation but have no interest in redeeming themselves). So I think we can conclude that they'd be very aggressively investigating the nature of the interaction of the Outside and Earwa. Thus, I think it's appropriate to assume that their actions are at least well-grounded in an understanding of that interaction (they wouldn't hold back from gaining immediate pleasure unless they believed they had a good reason). From the way the situation has been described, the Outside's influence on Earwa seems much like liquid under pressure coming through a membrane: If there are enough holes for water to get through, then the water flows, but there are only very few, the membrane holds and nothing comes through. In the case of the Outside and Earwa, this would mean the Outside would be shut off (no flow between it and Earwa), saving the Inchoroi from damnation. view post


posted 02 Feb 2006, 15:02 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="rycanada":3isg3jss]... From the way the situation has been described, the Outside's influence on Earwa seems much like liquid under pressure coming through a membrane: If there are enough holes for water to get through, then the water flows, but there are only very few, the membrane holds and nothing comes through. In the case of the Outside and Earwa, this would mean the Outside would be shut off (no flow between it and Earwa), saving the Inchoroi from damnation.[/quote:3isg3jss] You seem to forget the Inchoroi also have souls since they can work sorcery - henceforth they're condemned to be damned - no matter how many of the vermins they kill. It takes but one hole to let the Outside's influence through and both Aurang & Aurax are such holes as far as we can determine. G. view post


posted 02 Feb 2006, 16:02 by rycanada, Peralogue

I agree - Aurax and Aurang have souls. But as I said, I don't think it takes "just one hole". If it did, the Inchoroi's position would be incoherent. I think there's got to be a critical mass (see my membrane analogy). But if you'd rather be disappointed... :) view post


posted 02 Feb 2006, 16:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="Grallon":ixg0pcnf] You seem to forget the Inchoroi also have souls since they can work sorcery - henceforth they're condemned to be damned - no matter how many of the vermins they kill. It takes but one hole to let the Outside's influence through and both Aurang & Aurax are such holes as far as we can determine. G.[/quote:ixg0pcnf] Except the Inchoroi have postulated that there is some sort of "critical mass" effect. There have to be enough windows for the Outside to have influence. Remember there are only two Inchoroi left and the Consult probably isn't that numerous. The Scylvendi were on the side of the Consult during the Apocalypse but presumably either they would be exterminated afterwards or their numbers are not enough to tip the balance. Certainly there are not that many members of the Consult. I am sure creations such as the Sranc, Bashrag, Wracu, etc do not have souls so they are of no concern. As the Consult/Inchori have said, kill enough Men/Non-men and it seals of Earwa from the influence of the Outside, from that point on whenever they died their souls would fade into Oblivion, the Outside would have no hold. view post


posted 02 Feb 2006, 17:02 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="Entropic_existence":1za4ryx2]... As the Consult/Inchori have said, [b:1za4ryx2]kill enough Men/Non-men and it seals of Earwa from the influence of the Outside[/b:1za4ryx2], from that point on whenever they died their souls would fade into Oblivion, the Outside would have no hold.[/quote:1za4ryx2] And that is where the bone of contention lies. It *is* incoherent to postulate the existence of metaphysical superbeings, as evidenced by their influence through the agency of sentient underbeings, while at the same time making said influence, ergo said deties' very existence, contingent on an arbitrary number of souls. G. view post


posted 02 Feb 2006, 17:02 by rycanada, Peralogue

[quote="Grallon":2tvevrvm]And that is where the bone of contention lies. It *is* incoherent to postulate the existence of metaphysical superbeings, as evidenced by their influence through the agency of sentient underbeings, while at the same time making said influence, [b:2tvevrvm]ergo said deties' very existence[/b:2tvevrvm], contingent on an arbitrary number of souls. G.[/quote:2tvevrvm] Hamana... wha? I don't see how the deities' existence is brought into question by the contingency of their influence. But hey, as I said, you seem determined to be dissatisfied, but as long as you're planning on buying more of R. Scott Bakker's books (and thereby encouraging the publication of the Aspect-Emperor) I'm happy. view post


posted 02 Feb 2006, 21:02 by Nauticus, Auditor

[quote="Grallon":h51yznz3][quote="Entropic_existence":h51yznz3]... As the Consult/Inchori have said, [b:h51yznz3]kill enough Men/Non-men and it seals of Earwa from the influence of the Outside[/b:h51yznz3], from that point on whenever they died their souls would fade into Oblivion, the Outside would have no hold.[/quote:h51yznz3] And that is where the bone of contention lies. It *is* incoherent to postulate the existence of metaphysical superbeings, as evidenced by their influence through the agency of sentient underbeings, while at the same time making said influence, ergo said deties' very existence, contingent on an arbitrary number of souls. G.[/quote:h51yznz3] You're trying your hardest to find any reason to dislike the story. Why? view post


posted 02 Feb 2006, 22:02 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="Nauticus":1osklzan]... You're trying your hardest to find any reason to dislike the story. Why?[/quote:1osklzan] This place is a forum to discuss the various apsects of Scott's work. I have raised what I see as logical inconsistencies and we are debating based on that premise. Besides if I didn't like the books I wouldn't spend time arguing about them. Now perhaps you'd like to leave your fanboi attitude at the door and jump into the discussion ? G. view post


posted 03 Feb 2006, 00:02 by rycanada, Peralogue

Grallon, I don't think calling Nauticus a fanboi is going to help your argue the point (i.e. you'll convince fewer people, not more, by doing so). I can understand why you don't like the pacing, or what happened to Conphas, but regardless of that, if there's a convincing case for the [i:2qc7drqt]incoherency[/i:2qc7drqt] of the given explanation of TTT's magical/ metaphysical/ spiritual content, I'm happy to hear it. view post


posted 03 Feb 2006, 02:02 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="rycanada":14sl4pp9]...I can understand why you don't like the pacing, or what happened to Conphas, but regardless of that, if there's a convincing case for the [i:14sl4pp9]incoherency[/i:14sl4pp9] of the given explanation of TTT's magical/ metaphysical/ spiritual content, I'm happy to hear it.[/quote:14sl4pp9] I've been expounding at lenght about it - didn't you read my posts ? G. view post


posted 03 Feb 2006, 03:02 by rycanada, Peralogue

Well, I think it's pretty clear that I've read your posts, given I've already responded to the points you made. You've called it incoherent. I've explained one plausible scenario where it is coherent. You haven't made any rejoinders. Feel free to stick with your view, but I can't figure out why you'd expect anyone else to agree. view post


posted 03 Feb 2006, 03:02 by Andrew, Peralogue

i think his point is that if God IS GOD, then suggesting that he can be barred from interfacing with the world for any reason, much less due to a certain number of deaths, is incoherent. Definitionally, God cannot be so constrained. Now, my response would be: 1) who says that the Inchoroi are actually right? they could be wrong but sincere. I mean, if i'm on a sinking ship, you can be sure that i will latch on to any piece of wood i can. Think i'm going to ignore a life vest just because i'm 3,000 miles from land? Even the Dunyain are fantastically wrong about the world in which they live. 2) who says that the god(s?) of earwa are comparable to the traditional western conception of God, in the sense of being Omnipotent etc? It may be that the agencies which have the ability to force the souls of mortal creatures to undergo eternal suffering/bliss are extremely constrained and are not the all powerful creator type God which one would automatically envision. Incidentally, the tone of this conversation is becoming distinctly negative. Often, in writing a person can come across as being exceedingly arrogant or intolerant or touchy or irritated. Particularly is this so in writings between strangers. We have no knowledge of each others character through which to filter the bald words. perhaps we could all grant one another a measure of charity and grace in this respect. No one came out to this anonomous board (i hope) looking to show how brilliant they were and slay all who disagreed on points of interpretation. view post


posted 03 Feb 2006, 04:02 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="rycanada":2jsz3xj2]...You haven't made any rejoinders. [/quote:2jsz3xj2] [quote:2jsz3xj2]...It *is* incoherent to postulate the existence of metaphysical superbeings, as evidenced by their influence through the agency of sentient underbeings, while at the same time making said influence, ergo said deties' very existence, contingent on an arbitrary number of souls. [/quote:2jsz3xj2] Re-read this phrase please - my answer is there. a) there exist a metaphisycal reality known as the Outside (first postulate); b) we know it exist because of the use of sorcery (second postulate proving the first - or - in other words - the cause proved by its effects); c) after demonstrating A by B the author proceeds to tell us that in certain circumstances B can cease being true (through the elimination of x number of souls); d) so logically - if B can be made false than A becomes mere speculation - since one hinges on the other - thus: e) if A is not [i:2jsz3xj2]always[/i:2jsz3xj2] true - then the whole philosophical construction (damnation/redemption) based on those postulates crumble. G. view post


posted 03 Feb 2006, 04:02 by Grallon, Candidate

[quote="Andrew":21a9xljz]... Incidentally, the tone of this conversation is becoming distinctly negative. Often, in writing a person can come across as being exceedingly arrogant or intolerant or touchy or irritated. Particularly is this so in writings between strangers. We have no knowledge of each others character through which to filter the bald words. perhaps we could all grant one another a measure of charity and grace in this respect. No one came out to this anonomous board (i hope) looking to show how brilliant they were and slay all who disagreed on points of interpretation.[/quote:21a9xljz] Certes, but there's no reason to shy away from an argument simply because the debate gets slightly virile. G. view post


posted 03 Feb 2006, 21:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="Grallon":1k08tlkm][quote="rycanada":1k08tlkm]...You haven't made any rejoinders. [/quote:1k08tlkm] [quote:1k08tlkm]...It *is* incoherent to postulate the existence of metaphysical superbeings, as evidenced by their influence through the agency of sentient underbeings, while at the same time making said influence, ergo said deties' very existence, contingent on an arbitrary number of souls. [/quote:1k08tlkm] Re-read this phrase please - my answer is there. a) there exist a metaphisycal reality known as the Outside (first postulate); b) we know it exist because of the use of sorcery (second postulate proving the first - or - in other words - the cause proved by its effects); c) after demonstrating A by B the author proceeds to tell us that in certain circumstances B can cease being true (through the elimination of x number of souls); d) so logically - if B can be made false than A becomes mere speculation - since one hinges on the other - thus: e) if A is not [i:1k08tlkm]always[/i:1k08tlkm] true - then the whole philosophical construction (damnation/redemption) based on those postulates crumble. G.[/quote:1k08tlkm] Well, I don't actually agree with your C. The situation being described isn't saying that the Outside would cease to exist, it is saying the Agencies of the Outside would cease to be able to exert influence on Earwa the way they do now. That changes the rest of your postulates after that point because it is a completely different situation and metaphysical construct. It is of course entirely possible that the sealing of Earwa would result in Sorcery no longer becoming possible. So the way I am reading the theory, what you seem to have the bone of contention with no longer exists. The Sealing of Earwa would not cause the Outside to cease to exist, it would simply seal Earwa from the influence of the Outside. view post


posted 04 Feb 2006, 06:02 by rycanada, Peralogue

Thanks entropic, that's exactly my point (and it's that further point you're describing which I felt has not met with a rejoinder). Grallon, I did read your post quite carefully, and that's why I made the point about the contingency of the gods' [i:6dlb5g3y]influence [/i:6dlb5g3y]not being a mark against their [i:6dlb5g3y]existence[/i:6dlb5g3y]. view post


posted 04 Feb 2006, 06:02 by rycanada, Peralogue

[quote="Grallon":26aj4021]Certes, but there's no reason to shy away from an argument simply because the debate gets slightly virile.G.[/quote:26aj4021] Well... it can be a sign that arguing is pointless. i.e. if neither party is capable of being convinced, and it spirals deeper into negativity, then "shying away" (which I think is a mischaracterization of agreeing to disagree) is the more productive option. Regardless, I think we can pull back from it if there are more points to be made. view post


posted 12 Feb 2006, 06:02 by sciborg2, Candidate

[quote:2aggvxd9]Broad black wings outstretched, the Synthese drifted on the early morning wind, just savoring the curious familiarity of it all. The eastern skyline gradually brightened, then suddenly the sun cracked the horizon, lancing between the hills, over the corpse-strewn expanse of the Battleplain, and out into the infinite black, where it would, eventually, trace a thread incomprehensibly long . . . Perhaps all the way home.[/quote:2aggvxd9]--TWP Seems to me the Inchoroi want to go home, whereas their pawns the Consult seem to have this trumped up idea of sin and damnation. Honestly, i think the Inchoroi want to crack open the world and leave. But am I remembering incorrectly or is their something in the books about the Inchoroi making the world into a harem? view post


posted 12 Feb 2006, 07:02 by Kingmanor, Candidate

[quote="sciborg2":3ru541ff]Honestly, i think the Inchoroi want to crack open the world and leave.[/quote:3ru541ff]How will cracking open the world help them leave? Is that gonna help fix their broken crashed spaceship in Golgotterath? Where would they go anyway? view post


posted 12 Feb 2006, 15:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

And, as Scott has confirmed in the Q&A section of the board, there is a difference between the Outside and the Void. This pertains to the original debate of this thread. Yes the Inchoroi might want to go home, maybe but they have discussed making the world their Harem. That and there are only two of them left, Aurang and Aurax. I'm prettyr sure they have just as much concern for their own souls as the rest of the Consult does. view post


posted 12 Feb 2006, 19:02 by sciborg2, Candidate

Yeah I saw Bakker's reply too. Question then -- why isn't Khellus damned? How does anyone even know the morality of these so called gods? Why is Khellus exempt from damnation -- his crimes equal or even surpass that of his father. view post


posted 12 Feb 2006, 23:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Well, he may very well be... if he is wrong. It all depends on if he really IS an agent of the God now or not, he has lifted the prohibition on Sorcery meaning, as far as I know, that Sorcerors are no longer considered unclean. But they may still very well be Damned. As for Kelhus himself he is supposed to be a Shaman now, a Prophet who sings the God's Song with the God's own Voice. Sort of a Divine Blessing if you will to use Sorcery. Whether ths belief is metaphysically accurate in Scott's system is hard to say. view post


posted 18 Feb 2006, 00:02 by Shryke, Candidate

It seems to me that Grallon's whole argument rests on a personal distaste for religion. He seems unable to accept that perhaps sorcery really IS the voice of the God(s) and not some sort of phenomenon that could be eventually explained away with science. As to the Inchoroi, if you reread the section where Kellhus talks with the possesed Esemenet, you can get a fairly good understanding of the Inchoroi from his thoughts on them. They, or the part of them we see, are a race that has become obssesed with the carnal. In his words, they have a hundred words for ejaculation. For whatever reason, they crashed on this planet. At some point, we don't know whether it was before or after the crash, they have become obssesed with escaping the damnation in the next life, the damnation brought on by there way of life. To do this, they need to destroy all, or almost all, sentient life on Earwa. view post


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