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The Meeting between Kellhus & Moenghus? posted 27 Jan 2006, 14:01 by Conphas, Commoner

I was a bit disappointed and confused by the final meeting between K&M. What was the point other than to wrap up a plotline? Kellhus didn't learn anything from Moenghus - his father just repeated everything he assumed Kellhus had done and learned along the way. Am I missing something? What did ya'll get out of this meeting? And I still don't get what tTT is... view post


posted 27 Jan 2006, 16:01 by rycanada, Peralogue

Sorry, that should have read unite the "world", not rold, which isn't even a word. Anyway, I wasn't overjoyed by the "reveal"-style ending, but I know the point of the discussion. Kellhus has a categorical split from the thought of the Dunyain - he IS the Warrior-prophet, and he has somehow transcended his humanity (even the sort of super-humanity of the Dunyain). view post


posted 28 Jan 2006, 03:01 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I think one of the most important parts of the meeting between Moenghus and Kellhus is to show us a few things. One was that the Dunyain aren't all seeing. Moenghus ended up going down the wrong path ultimately, the road he chose was a dead end. Another is that Kellhus has transcended the Dunyain to such a degree that one could argue he is no longer truly Dunyain. Whether this means he has stepped further along the path of the Dunyain, or stepped out of that "track" altogether remains to be seen I think. The confrontation I think ensured that we'll still be on our toes for The Aspect-Emperor as to what role the rest of the Dunyain will ultimately play. view post


posted 28 Jan 2006, 04:01 by rycanada, Peralogue

The Dunyain will side with the Consult, I'm practically certain of it. Otherwise it just won't be a good enough story. Oh, and when the Consult talk about the Architect (I believe they at one point refer to him as human) doesn't that character seem awfully Dunyain-like? view post


posted 05 Feb 2006, 22:02 by Mithfânion, Didact

I found the meeting between the two, or more specifically the climax of it, very peculiar. Why kill him? How does he die? Is ithe chorea or the knife wound. Why the chorea by Cniaur if he didn't want to kill him but save him? view post


posted 22 Feb 2006, 06:02 by HosStepper, Commoner

New guy here. It seems to me that the father was doomed to follow the path of the Consult mostly as a resuly of his inability to move beyond being a Dunyain. Kellhus is left for us/me to be considered the savior of mankind or according to Akka's last dream/vision the ultimate failing of mankind, unable to pull the trigger with the spear. Just a thought. view post


Moenghus didn't raise no fool... posted 22 Feb 2006, 08:02 by Cu Roi, Candidate

Throughout the end of TTT, Khellus recollects his journey beginning in Ishual & ending with his meeting with Moenghus. He reveals that with every step forward he collapses possibilites. This is important, I believe, in understanding how circumstance ensnared Moenghus. Moenghus left Ishual in much the same way as Khellus, knowing nothing of the outside world. He too found that men were as children to him. He too fell into captivity with the Scylvendi, the same tribe as a matter of fact. That is where their paths diverged. Moenghus scarred his arms with swazond in order to survive the journey through the steppes. The swazond kept him hidden among the Scylvendi, but would have been a death warrant in the Nansurium. So his only option was to travel away from the empire, into Fanim territory. Just like Khellus, he awed those around him and placed himself in a position to master all of the worlds most potent weapons: faith, war, & sorcery. He had no way of knowing that the sorcery he was commiting himself to, he would not be able to utilize effectively. So unable to master the world in the way he needed to fullfill the Thousandfold Thought. He devised a way to make another Dunyain available who could. The majesty of all of this is that Khellus's entire journey was orchestrated by Moenghus. Khellus realizes this. Every step he has taken has been on conditioned ground. The meeting is important because it is where Khellus actually takes control. Moenghus expected to find a kindred soul. Someone of like mind. Yet he didn't foresee the visions that would convince Khellus of the existence of divinity. That's why all of the scrutiny and calculation. Why he thinks Khellus mad. He didn't factor in the possibilty that the divine was real, and why would he, he has no proof that it exists. Just the way that Khellus was surprised by the existence of Sorcery way back in Darkness. Moenghus was only overthrown because he was denied variables. His knowledge was incomplete. Khellus had to kill him, clear him from the plate, in order to condition things according to his divergent purpose. At least I think... ;) view post


posted 22 Feb 2006, 19:02 by Shryke, Candidate

That's actually the best description of what happens at that meeting I've heard yet. Don't forget, he also had to kill Moengus because Moengus was still, at heart, a Dunyian. And Kellhus saw that inevitably, the purposes of the Dunyain would have to match the purposes of the Consult (sealing this world from the Outside). The Outside is a variable thatr cannot be controlled, so to the Dunyain, it must be isolated. So why doesn't Kellhus want this too? Because, as he says at the end, he's become MORE then Dunyain, or at least he thinks he has. He's seeing visions, and seeing halos around his hands. Something that all his Dunyian training cannot predict is happening to him. He believes he's become the prophisied savior of the world I think. Thus, the Dunyain are now his enemies. view post


posted 22 Feb 2006, 20:02 by rycanada, Peralogue

I agree. This is exactly what I think Kellhus is doing. He has to kill Moenghus to remove both variables and opposition. He removes variables because he is Dunyain - he removes opposition because after his circumfiction, he is non-neutral with regards to human life. He is committed to either the notion of saving humanity, doing the God's will, or both. (Although interestingly, I think Kellhus' religious views are closer to Fanimry than Inrithism). view post


posted 28 Feb 2006, 03:02 by Ikiru, Candidate

Moenghus does believe in the divine - he explicitly rejects the Dunyain belief that the world is "closed." Moenghus just believes in a God who "sleeps," as he puts it, who can only be awakened through striving for the Absolute. Kellhus seems to believe in a God who is both immanent and transcendent - within the world, through the "one Here" he describes to Akka, AS WELL AS Outside. Kellhus is convinced that when Moenghus realizes Kellhus's view is right, and damnation awaits him for the monstrous things he's done (think of the woman and child he was feeding to the skin-spies), he will join with the Inchoroi. This is why he kills him. view post


posted 28 Feb 2006, 14:02 by Darlan Laerdon, Commoner

I dont see how believeing he's some sort of trancendent son of god somehow makes kellhus exempt from going to hell for using people like he's been using them for all three books. I'm personally of the opinion Kellhus is going to turn out to be a badguy, and our only hope is Akka. GO AKKA! view post


posted 28 Feb 2006, 16:02 by Ikiru, Candidate

Darlan, I thought the same thing. If Moenghus is a damned sinner, isn't Kellhus? But I guess that's where the concept of rememption comes in. Moenghus is still Dunyain - rather than repent, he'll try to master circumstance. But since Kellhus has explicitly repudiated the Dunyain and embraced the God's will, he's been "saved," so to speak. But the fact that the No-God speaks to him as well as the God suggests that he may not be quite as holy as he thinks. Maybe he WILL turn out to be a villian, if the No-God's voices win out. He envisioned Moenghus joining with the Consult to sacrifice the Three-Seas; it's possible this actually be his own destiny. But I hope not. It's really hard to say, because Scott's writing is so ambiguous. view post


posted 01 Mar 2006, 00:03 by Darlan Laerdon, Commoner

I personally had interpreted the final dream of Akka in the thousandfold thought as representitive of what would come to pass, Akka is standing against the Nogod, and Kellhus (anaphaxos), though it looked as though he was standing with him as well, was saying exacly what the nogod was saying, or rather, he will be doing what the nogod wants to do. AKKA FOR TEH WIN! view post


posted 01 Mar 2006, 01:03 by Ikiru, Candidate

That's possible, but it's also possible the dream is just reflective of Akka's despair. Or, because the No-God is awakening, it's screwing up the dreams. The one problem with Anaxophus = Kellhus is that by this time, Achamian has already learned of Kellhus's true nature and doesn't see him as Seswatha sees Anaxophus. But still, what you say is highly possible, and it crossed my mind too while reading that final scene. view post


posted 02 Mar 2006, 22:03 by Abyss, Commoner

Unless Kellhus' ultimate plan is beyond just stopping the No-God. He knows, better than Moe did, that the NoGod has to be stopped. But Moe's perspective was warped by his dead end with the psuchke [sp]. Consider what the Inchoroi have to offer - immortality for one thing. And there is the suggestion in Seswatha's memories that the No-God is a created thing, or a summoned being in a constructed vessel. I think Kellhus is going for the big win. Godhood. He knew Moe would fail because ultimately his own fear of damnation and Dunyain reasoning would cause him to fail and go the Consult route. So he took Moe out of the picture. Kell surpassed Moe, and my guess is he's intending to use the Gnosis and whatever else he can to become even more than a prophet. Consider his comments that a One God and the No God both speak to him. he won't just stop the No-God. He'll surpass him too. Maybe. - Abyss, also thinks the Illuminati are spying on us all... moo hoo hah ha... view post


posted 03 Mar 2006, 03:03 by unJon, Auditor

Just some random speculation that I decided to post here because it is tangentially on topic. We know that a world can be closed to the Outside. We know that inherently soulless creatures can gain a soul. What if Kellhus determines how to lose his soul. Close himself off from the wrath of the Outside. Pretty good way to avoid damnation, assuming that losing a soul doesn't mean losing one's volition in the here and now. view post


posted 03 Mar 2006, 05:03 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

An interesting proposition, for some reason when I think of it I think of the Void....and the No-God and all manner of inherent emptiness should such a thing occur. Kind of like a black hole..... *walks away gibbering in some mad reflection* view post


posted 04 Mar 2006, 03:03 by Noctis, Candidate

I agree that Kellhus was intending to follow the "shortest path" in removing Moenghus from the game, but I also got the feeling, in reading the meeting between Moenghus and Kellhus, that there were a couple of other considerations at work: 1. Kellhus convinced Moenghus that he (Kellhus) was insane, and at that point, Moenghus was going to try to remove him from the field (as defective Dunyain or whatever); so it was kill or be killed. 2. Kellhus also saw what would happen if Moenghus killed him and tried to do the job himself...basically, chaos, strife, and eventually, Apocalypse. And, since the death of Serwe, Kellhus does have an opinion on that; he's bought into Akka's theory that he's supposed to save the world, and backed away from the completely emotionless Dunyain way at least enough to want to stop the Apocalypse. Maybe that means that Kellhus hasn't so much "transcended" the Dunyain (although Kellhus definitely thinks he has) as become just a teency bit more human, more emotional, and therefore actually less uber. I dunno, just a thought. view post


posted 04 Mar 2006, 20:03 by Mithfânion, Didact

Noctis [quote:1ngqaz0t]1. Kellhus convinced Moenghus that he (Kellhus) was insane, and at that point, Moenghus was going to try to remove him from the field (as defective Dunyain or whatever); so it was kill or be killed. [/quote:1ngqaz0t] Hmmm. I read that scene differently. It seemed clear to me that Kellhus was relaying his story to Moenghus, and that Moenghus deduced that what Kellhus said ( which we know to be true) simply could not be. I did not get the impression that Kellhus did that deliberatly, so that he would himself be forced into a kill or be-killed situation. BTW Abyss, does Kellhus actually cleam that God speaks to him, aside from the No-God doing so as well? view post


posted 05 Mar 2006, 17:03 by Noctis, Candidate

yes, maybe "convince" was the wrong word to use; I don't think that Kellhus was actively trying to get Moenghus to think he was insane. That was the impression that Moenghus got, though (possibilities collapsing and all) and at that point I think Kellhus realized that Moenghus would try to eliminate him. view post


posted 20 Mar 2006, 14:03 by xhaldur, Candidate

I didn't gather that the Dunyain were extinct. I can't quote it exactly without the book in my hand, but I'm fairly certain only the few dunyain that recieved the dream killed themselves. All the other Dunyain are still there. view post


posted 20 Mar 2006, 14:03 by Rooster, Commoner

[quote:27jkq41w]Distant figures filed between the battlements before disappearing behind stone—the elder Dûnyain abandoning their vigil. They would wind down the mighty staircases, Kellhus knew, and one by one enter the darkness of the Thousand Thousand Halls, the great Labyrinth that wheeled through the depths beneath Ishuäl. There they would die, as had been decided. All those his father had polluted.[/quote:27jkq41w] Mith, yes he does. I don't remember the page numbers, but when Kellhus starts to speak back to Möenghus he says "the God speaks to me" (or something quite close) and later when they discuss the No-God he says "Yes, he speaks to me as well". view post


posted 20 Mar 2006, 23:03 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="Anonymous":2tzo2r77]These theories. I don't understand the concept of a Consult/Dunyain coalition. The Dunyain lived in a Utopian society. Why would they team with the Consult? Even with the little information we know of the Dunyain, we know less of the Consult. Their goals and intentions. Look at the facts. The Dunyain hid from and disregarded "modern society". Just because the Consult hides doesn't mean they have the same goals. They have infiltrated the humans with skin spies. They care about what is going on. What would be the point of the partnership? As vague as the beginning of PON was, taken literally, the Dunyain no longer exist. They killed themselves because of the message Moenghus sent to them in the dream. Moengus was the last of the Dunyain. Kellhus had to take him out. Their way of life failed. Magic and religion have no place in logic. Kellhus found faith. He cried for the first time in his life. He is no longer Dunyain. The Thousandfold Thought. Something greater than nature. Delusions of Grandeur. Sucks to be crazy. Maybe you Canadians are privy to more info but I believe the Dunyain to be extinct.[/quote:2tzo2r77] The Dunyain hardly live in a Utopian society. They removed themselves from the world in order to achieve their mission, which is to become the ultimate self-mover. A group of people who have completely thrown off the shackles of "what comes before" and to thereby become completely self-determining. However they have also discarded the notion of Sorcery, along with many other metaphysics that the "low" humans take as natural. The Dunyain do not believe there to be any Gods, any Outside that has influence on the world of men. The Dunyain, we believe, are wrong. Kelhus himself came to conclusion that the Dunyain, should they learn more of the world, that they would ultimately side with the Consult because they would have one unifying purpose, to remove the influence of the Outside from Earwa. The Outside is a wild card variable in the Dunyain's calculations and so could not be allowed to exist if they are to achieve their mission. view post


posted 22 Mar 2006, 00:03 by anor277, Didact

Just to add to EE's reply, there is little evidence to suggest that the Dunyain is not still functioning. Those members who were contaminated by Moenghus sorcerous sending in TDTCB commited suicide, all save Kellhus - whom the remaining Dunyain sent to assassinate the sender Moenghus. This suggests that the Dunyain want to insulate themselves from the outside world. An alliance between the Dunyain and the Consult is not at all far-fetcheed. view post


posted 22 Mar 2006, 03:03 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

The Dunyain are definitly still there, as anor said, it was only the ones who had been contacted by Meognhus, and thus "contaminated" by the outside world who commited suicide. view post


posted 23 Mar 2006, 17:03 by dalamar the dark, Commoner

I don't think the dunyain would ally themsleves with the consult or any other non-dunyain. Of course they may lie and say they are allied with the Consult but they would really be trying to dominate them as Kellhus dominated the Holy War view post


posted 23 Mar 2006, 17:03 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

It isn't a matter of allying with the Consult, Kelhus came to the conclusion that they would have the same goal but for different reasons. The Dunyain would want to remove the variable of the Outside from the equation, thus necessitating closing of the world by slaughtering humanity. view post


posted 28 Mar 2006, 16:03 by dalamar the dark, Commoner

wouldn't slaughtering humanity be in direct opposition to their ultimate goal, as they would have to slaughter themselves and never have the chance to become self-moving? view post


posted 28 Mar 2006, 20:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I dont think they really consider themselves part of humanity. view post


posted 28 Mar 2006, 22:03 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

There are humans, non-men, and Inchoroi among the Consult, all of which have souls. It's been expressed on this board a few times that to close the gates to the Outside only means removing the majority of souls from Earwa, if enough are gone the Outside can no longer mess around with the world. It's a mass effect thing. Plus as WP said, the Dunyain consider themselves above the rest of humanity anyway. view post


posted 28 Mar 2006, 22:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote:1mvad6ny]There are humans, non-men, and Inchoroi among the Consult, all of which have souls. It's been expressed on this board a few times that to close the gates to the Outside only means removing the majority of souls from Earwa, if enough are gone the Outside can no longer mess around with the world. It's a mass effect thing. Plus as WP said, the Dunyain consider themselves above the rest of humanity anyway.[/quote:1mvad6ny] Damn i forgot about the majority thing good point EE. view post


posted 08 Apr 2006, 21:04 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

?...... view post


posted 08 Apr 2006, 23:04 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="shortyboomboom":2n465e2m]So the No-God and the God are not the same.... Kellhus wanted to know more about the No-God....hence the latter might be his enemy.... God's extension being through souls, the No-God through instinct and void.... The Inchoroi side with the No-God...how odd...? Both seem to want to seal off the world...? So they have something of a common quest. Killing humans would be the solution... Maybe Kellhus wants all men to enlighten and defend themselves as one. Sealing off of the world would no longer be necessary, though I do not really see the reason for sealing the world apart from the damned...?Make everyone aware of what the world is...so that outside forces cannot influence it too much.... what outside forces?[/quote:2n465e2m] The No-God is called the No-God for obvious reasons, being that he is not a God but appears to be Godlike in many ways. We really don't know the No-God's nature at all. The "God" is a synthesis of the gods by the Inrithi. Originally there were the cults back in the days of the tusk and up until the days of Inri Sejenus (the cults still do exist as a seperate entity as well which is the father of Inrithism. Their followers are not seen as heathen by the Inrithi but more as misguided kin). Inri Sejenus decided that all of the gods were merely aspects of One God and so we have "The God". Then there is the "Solitary God" of the Fanim. Other than this we don't know that much about how well religious beliefs reflect the actuality of the Outside. We also don't know how much of Kelhus theory of everyone being reflections of the God is true or if he even believes it. He could just be spinning words. It's difficult to take anything Kelhus says at face value. And of course the Inchoroi and No-God are on the same side. The Inchoroi were working on summoning him way back in the Cuno-Inchoroi wars and then when the school that became the Consult joined them they managed to do just that in the First Apocalypse. It is the Consult who wants to seal off the world because they are already damned. This thought I believe originated with the Inchoroi. view post


posted 01 May 2006, 07:05 by vercint, Peralogue

Do the Nonmen believe in damnation though? Or is it only the Consult and the Inchoroi? Kellhus' theory, as he explains it to Akka, implies that there is no god; men are god, and men created god, and with god damnation. That's why, if the Consult were to succeed in destroying mankind, or most of it, god, and therefor damnation, would cease to exist. view post


posted 01 May 2006, 11:05 by Curethan, Didact

Yah, Non-men are/were the progenitors of the consult. It was one of their gnostic schools that excavated the Arc - searching for a solution to the problem of damnation if I recall. I think that all "ensouled" creatures are linked to the outside - their beliefs help to shape and define the gods and other powers there, whilst they in turn can affect events in Earwa. A kind of symbiosis of faith and philosophy with life. Which makes sorcery and it's connection with damnation very interesting - sorcery can only be used for destruction, and it leaves a mark... view post


posted 01 May 2006, 12:05 by Arwyl, Commoner

I wonder if the Dunyain have any inkling at all of what has been happening. I don't remember far back, but do they expect Khellus to return after killing Moe? And now that Khellus has killed Moe for being "a Dunyain still", would they send another to kill Khellus? It's possible they would think that given the events, sending someone alone would be too risky and so perhaps ally themselves with the Consult instead. view post


posted 01 May 2006, 13:05 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="Curethan":282u43sc]Yah, Non-men are/were the progenitors of the consult. It was one of their gnostic schools that excavated the Arc - searching for a solution to the problem of damnation if I recall. I think that all "ensouled" creatures are linked to the outside - their beliefs help to shape and define the gods and other powers there, whilst they in turn can affect events in Earwa. A kind of symbiosis of faith and philosophy with life. Which makes sorcery and it's connection with damnation very interesting - sorcery can only be used for destruction, and it leaves a mark...[/quote:282u43sc] Actually it was a human Gnostic school (The Mengaeacca) who "re-discovered" the Ark and linked up with the remaining Inchoroi to form the Consult. Of course as far back as the Cuno-Inchoroi wars there were Non-men who had sided with the Consult and after the Womb Plague and time went on, and more Erratics appeared the Erratics tended to shift over to that side as well. view post


posted 02 May 2006, 02:05 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

You could be right, but its probably more like after meeting Kellhus he knew that he would likely die but I do not think his plan for the long term was to be killed by Kellhus, Moenghus may be more or still a Dunyain but that gives him no to little advantage over Kellhus if you remember correctly Kellhus was a prodigy even for a Dunyain. view post


posted 02 May 2006, 07:05 by Curethan, Didact

[quote:3kqrxmhr] Arwyl= I wonder if the Dunyain have any inkling at all of what has been happening. I don't remember far back, but do they expect Khellus to return after killing Moe? And now that Khellus has killed Moe for being "a Dunyain still", would they send another to kill Khellus? It's possible they would think that given the events, sending someone alone would be too risky and so perhaps ally themselves with the Consult instead.[/quote:3kqrxmhr] I believe Kellhus was only sent to eliminate Moe after Moe had contacted the Dunyain. The idea is to keep the outside world at bay. They have establiched their own little enclave that is unconnected to the outside (exactly what the consult seek) and require intellectual and spiritual isolation in order to achieve their goal of producing a self moving soul. If Kellhus seeks to contact them, they would then move to eliminate him. [quote:3kqrxmhr]Entropic_existence= Actually it was a human Gnostic school (The Mengaeacca) who "re-discovered" the Ark and linked up with the remaining Inchoroi to form the Consult. Of course as far back as the Cuno-Inchoroi wars there were Non-men who had sided with the Consult and after the Womb Plague and time went on, and more Erratics appeared the Erratics tended to shift over to that side as well.[/quote:3kqrxmhr] Okay, you made me look in the glossary. :wink: quote: "Mangaecca- ....the last of the four original Gnostic Schools. ...then, in 777, at the behest of a Nonman Erratic named Cet'ingira (aka Mekeritig), they discovered the Incu-Holoinas..." Gnostic sorcery was developed by the Nonmen Quya, who imparted it to the Norsirai turing the Nonman Tutelage, 555-825. As the Mangaecca was originally a Nonman School, and the Ark was rediscovered during the tutelage, we can assume that there were more than just one Nonman involved. However," it was Shaeoenanra (in 1123) who claimed to have rediscovered a means of saving the souls of those damned by sorcery." Interesting word; rediscovered. Nonman bootprints all over the Consult, and Aurax and Aurang seem suspiciously like Oirinas and Oirunan if ya ask me. But I can't find any official Nonmen listed as being part of the Consult. view post


posted 02 May 2006, 17:05 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Okay, you made me look in the glossary. :wink: quote: "Mangaecca- ....the last of the four original Gnostic Schools. ...then, in 777, at the behest of a Nonman Erratic named Cet'ingira (aka Mekeritig), they discovered the Incu-Holoinas..." Gnostic sorcery was developed by the Nonmen Quya, who imparted it to the Norsirai turing the Nonman Tutelage, 555-825. As the Mangaecca was originally a Nonman School, and the Ark was rediscovered during the tutelage, we can assume that there were more than just one Nonman involved. However," it was Shaeoenanra (in 1123) who claimed to have rediscovered a means of saving the souls of those damned by sorcery." Interesting word; rediscovered. Nonman bootprints all over the Consult, and Aurax and Aurang seem suspiciously like Oirinas and Oirunan if ya ask me. But I can't find any official Nonmen listed as being part of the Consult.[/quote] Yes the Non-men developed the Gnosis and taught it to humans during the tutelage, but the Schools are entirely human inventions as far as I am aware :) The Mengeaca were "directed" by Mekeretrig to uncover the Ark, probably by some design of his. The Mengeaca was already quite riveled as a School due to their "power at all costs" ethos. So We have an order of events where the Non-men during the tutelage teach human Sorcerors the Gnosis, Humans develop the Schools (Non-men Sorcerors are always referenced as the Quya never by a School affiliation after all), The Mengaeca eventually gets pointed towards the Ark by Mekeretrig and becomes the Consult. Eventually the Consult is really everyone involved from the remaining Inchoroi to the Human Sorcerors to the Non-men Erratics. Yea, his (Shaeoenanra ) rediscovery had to do with the No-God, remember that Aurang talks about how the humans were the ones to sort fo rediscover alot of things the Inchoroi themselves had forgotten over the centuries. As for Non-men officially in the Consult Meketrig is the only one that we know for sure is still alive. The Consult, since the days of the Apocalypse, is merely a reference to the Generals and Sorcerors in service to the No-God. Aurang and Aurax are Inchoroi, not Non-men so they aren't Oirinas and Oirunan. view post


posted 02 May 2006, 22:05 by Curethan, Didact

Well, you could hardly call Shaeoenanra human any more either... view post


posted 03 May 2006, 17:05 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="Curethan":29ycnxle]Well, you could hardly call Shaeoenanra human any more either...[/quote:29ycnxle] He's certainly gone beyond that :) But nevertheless he began life as one :) I can only imagine how deep his Mark has gotten, probably pretty close to Mekertrig I wouldn't doubt, but not quite. After all Mekeretrig still has at least a few centuries on him :) view post


posted 30 May 2006, 08:05 by kalbear, Candidate

I had a very different take on the final outcome here, and one that I'm not sure I can express as factually as y'all can. I do think that Moe truly believes in the apocalypse and what they needed to fight against, and the power of the unifying force - the thousandfold thought - that he presumes will allow the remaining humans to successfully stave off the 2nd apocalypse. While he views the Outside as a Bad Thing and something he does not believe in, I don't think for a second he can reasonably view it as something to be allowed to be removed, because he understands the effects of the outside being removed if not the belief in that thing. Much like a TV repairman might understand how to fix a TV but not what makes a TV work. Would other Dunyain view things this way? It's hard to say for certain; I think they must if they are given what came before, like Moe and Kellhus were. But this was not the Dunyain's goal. Having a second Sejenus was not the original intent of the Dunyain - they were established before the first war with the Inchoroi happened, right? (or during...that thing lasted for frickin EVER) The original Anasurimbor wasn't even the most pivotal player in the first apocalypse. Why should Kellhus be the pivotal good guy in the 2nd? What if Moe is absolutely right? Kellhus is undeniably powerful but the Consult, as it stands currently, is absolutely not. Kellhus has united the 3 seas (sorta kinda) against...what? Serwe, Cnaiur and the unnamed skinspy, along with a general-turned-bird who tells little kids secrets to steal their candy? Where is this Consult threat? If the Gnosis and the Mandate were the most powerful enemy, why were more skinspies not infiltrating the Mandate's group instead of the Cishaurim and the Scarlet Spires? What if Kellhus, by finding a connection to the No-God (which is the only God that speaks to the Mandate), has become absolutely corrupted in the same way that those original Nonmen were? Again, this would imply that Moe was absolutely correct and that Kellhus was absolutely correct in killing Moe, for no one else might guess his ultimate corruption. Except, of course, for Akka, through Seshi's dreams - the only hero descended from the only true hero. And paradoxically, Cnaiur. view post


posted 30 May 2006, 14:05 by FanManSC, Candidate

First, the Dunyain were formed during the first apocalypse, which wasn't the first war with the Inchoroi. They definitely aren't looking for a second Sejenus. That implies looking for the outside, not ignoring it like they do. Skin-spies that can infilitrate schools are very rare. They generally don't have souls, so they can't do sorcery. The Spires have many soldiers that could be replaced, but the Mandate don't seem to have the kind af army the Spires do, because they don't try to rule a nation. When they had one that could replace a sorceror, they sent it to the Mandate, because they knew that was their real enemy. Kellhus must care about humanity in some way if he is trying to stop the Second Apocalypse. That is the crux of TTT. Why he would care is a tougher question to answer, given the Dunyain's history. I would think that they wouldn't actively try to close off the outside, but it doesn't seem like it would bother them. view post


posted 30 May 2006, 14:05 by kalbear, Candidate

I actually just read that prologue bit - the Dunyain were absolutely not established during the apocalypse. They took up residence with the Anasurimbor, but that's all. It's pretty clear from the reading that they were known about - "We are Dunyain - why should you fear us?" The trick is that during the apocalypse, the Dunyain were forgotten about by the outside world. Forgotten by the Consult, by Men, by everyone. Skinspies can infiltrate schools; they just can't be the sorcerors themselves. Each school has plenty of non-magic using people associated with it - servants, guards, etc. I know that when they could they had a skinspy take control of a fairly pivotal being in a school, but for the most part they seem to have infiltrated the earthly areas and not the schools. [quote:3i4sx87w]Kellhus must care about humanity in some way if he is trying to stop the Second Apocalypse. [/quote:3i4sx87w]And that's the part I dispute. I don't believe that Kellhus is trying to stop the second apocalypse. I think Moe was but I haven't seen an indicator in the text or in Kellhus' actions that tells me he is. Moe wanted the Thousandfold Thought because he wanted to unite the 3 seas against a common foe, but could not figure out how to get there. Kellhus got to that Thought...but what will he use it for? view post


posted 14 Feb 2007, 03:02 by RazorSmile, Candidate

Reading this thread, a theory occurs: 1) We know the Thousandfold Thought is some kind of unifying supermeme that can supercede all the cultural differences and religons to make all humans act as one nation - most likely under Kellhus, the Aspect-Emperor. 2) We also know what Kellhus told Akka, about how our souls are all nodes in the body/mind of the God, all souled beings are part of the God and the God is made of them. And vice versa. 3) Ergo, his ultimate plan is to put these two facts together. By causing all men - and all [i:2b2s5dg6]Souls[/i:2b2s5dg6] - to act in perfect synch, he hopes to create/assemble the God, perhaps under his command, perhaps to merge with him directly and thus be able to fight the No-God. No Heron Spear required. This holds together whether he's lying to Akka or whether his beliefs are wrong. Thoughts? view post


posted 14 Feb 2007, 23:02 by anor277, Didact

[quote="RazorSmile":109qfohc]Reading this thread, a theory occurs: 1) We know the Thousandfold Thought is some kind of unifying supermeme that can supercede all the cultural differences and religons to make all humans act as one nation - most likely under Kellhus, the Aspect-Emperor. 2) We also know what Kellhus told Akka, about how our souls are all nodes in the body/mind of the God, all souled beings are part of the God and the God is made of them. And vice versa. 3) Ergo, his ultimate plan is to put these two facts together. By causing all men - and all [i:109qfohc]Souls[/i:109qfohc] - to act in perfect synch, he hopes to create/assemble the God, perhaps under his command, perhaps to merge with him directly and thus be able to fight the No-God. No Heron Spear required. This holds together whether he's lying to Akka or whether his beliefs are wrong. Thoughts?[/quote:109qfohc] This is a good post and touches on the question of what precisely are Kellhus’ motivations and his plans. But does Kellhus need all souls to act in perfect synchronization or just all bodies? I am reminded of Asimov’s classic sci-fi novels, the Foundation series, in which a mathematical psychology was found to be able to model and predict human behaviour, and a society based on such psychology was planned. In the last novels of the series, the protagonists try to find an underlying basis for the laws of psychohistory, in analogy with the last of four laws of thermodynamics, the zeroth law. The zeroth law of psychohistory was the assumption that humanity was the only functional intelligence in the galaxy; an assumption that while axiomatic was not of course necessarily true. In the Three-Seas, the Dunyain, for all their physical and intellectual achievements, still labour under that zeroth law; they assume that there is no intelligence or knowledge in the world that can threaten them or compete with their own knowledge. Kellhus and Moenghus (elder!), both Dunyain renegades (arguably), do not now share that assumption, and (as in the Foundation novels) possibly they see that the only hope for humanity against a renascent Consult is a united humanity. To unite humanity, their only recourse was to feed their fellows religion. We will have to wait and see what Kellhus makes of such a united humanity. view post


posted 16 Feb 2007, 20:02 by Alpha Crow, Candidate

Interesting, just reading over some comments I noticed the pattern about the dunyain trying to create the self-moving soul. Forgot about that. A self moving soul would seem to literally be a soul without God or Outside. It could be implied to be the opposite, but doubtful given the contexts. Also, I don't think the dunyain were anything but some group of monks when they found the citadel in the north. Iirc the consult makes some comment to that effect, something like "THAT group of whacked out nutjobs?!" (ok, heavily paraphrasing :D ), when he learns who/what the dunyain are. That and the original comment about "why should you fear us?". I think they were just an idealist group. Kind of a pacifist group then, perhaps. Now... um... only the quickest of their children are allowed to live, apparently. So... yeah... Kellhus for president, 08! view post


posted 25 Feb 2007, 23:02 by anor277, Didact

Someone has to start posting again, so here's 2 cents for this thread.[quote="Alpha Crow":33bz8ddt].......................... Also, I don't think the dunyain were anything but some group of monks when they found the citadel in the north. Iirc the consult makes some comment to that effect, something like "THAT group of whacked out nutjobs?!" (ok, heavily paraphrasing :D ), when he learns who/what the dunyain are. [/quote:33bz8ddt] I am not so sure that [i:33bz8ddt]at present[/i:33bz8ddt] the Consult have any knowledge whatsoever of the Dunyain. Ishual was chosen by a poweful dynasty as a secret mountain fastness, and the ones who shared the secret all died precipitately. In a time of great upheaval the original Dunyain blundered into the retreat, and subsequently they took steps to keep the secret. Whether they'll be able to preserve their secrecy with the Consult, with their vast resources of minions and intelligence gatherers, actively looking for them is debatable. Many on this board look towards a Dunyain/Consult alliance that will eventually face the Aspect-Emperor. [quote:33bz8ddt] That and the original comment about "why should you fear us?". I think they were just an idealist group. Kind of a pacifist group then, perhaps. Now... um... only the quickest of their children are allowed to live, apparently. [/quote:33bz8ddt] Agreed that the Dunyain of the apocalypse were very different from the Dunyain of the modern Three-Seas; of course they have had some 2000 years of research and selective breeding to shape themselves. I think it's reasonably certain that the Dunyain cull those they deem to be intellectually inadequate. Witness Kellhus reciting [i:33bz8ddt]The darkness that comes............[/i:33bz8ddt] etc. At the end of this ordeal Kellhus struck a knife from the hand of the Pragma, who oversaw his testing. Had Kellhus not been able to insert his will into that instant of probability, had he not came before (however you describe it), the Pragma would have killed him, as he would have killed any pupil who had failed to grasp the basic Dunyain principle. view post


posted 01 Mar 2007, 09:03 by Curethan, Didact

Really, I can't imagine why people think the dunyain will throw in with the consult - it seems largely based upon Kellhus' comment to Moe that he would eventually, being damned as they are. Re: ignoring the dunyain's oblective of creating a self moving soul - that would be a god imo, rather than merely an isolated soul.... And it seems to me that Kellhus is quite convinced of his divinity (glowing hands anyone?), and this would be his reason for opposing the consult. They have their no-god and the aim of closing off the world be killing of all souled beings, he seems to see himself as a divine saviour (maybe not tho, we have little insight into his true goals). I doubt that the dunyain would agree that he is the product they seek to create, and would probably try to destroy him if he interferes with them, probably reaching the same conclusions that he did regarding Moe. Finally, I would like to make the point that you cannot discount or accept anything they said to each other to be true, remember they both are master manipulators, and nowhere is there cause to be more careful about what u say than in the presence of another conditioned one. view post


posted 02 Mar 2007, 04:03 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Curethan":3s9juhpl]Really, I can't imagine why people think the dunyain will throw in with the consult - it seems largely based upon Kellhus' comment to Moe that he would eventually, being damned as they are. [/quote:3s9juhpl] It's also based on the knowledge that the Consult is actively seeking the Dunyain; with their enormous resources of manpower it's very probable that they will find them. What happens then if the Consult find the Dunyain? It's hard to believe that the Dunyain will remain in a subservient position for long. [quote:3s9juhpl]And it seems to me that Kellhus is quite convinced of his divinity (glowing hands anyone?), and this would be his reason for opposing the consult. They have their no-god and the aim of closing off the world be killing of all souled beings, he seems to see himself as a divine saviour (maybe not tho, we have little insight into his true goals). I doubt that the dunyain would agree that he is the product they seek to create, and would probably try to destroy him if he interferes with them, probably reaching the same conclusions that he did regarding Moe. [/quote:3s9juhpl] While you are entitled to your own opinion, I would take the opposite view here; Kellhus knows the truth though he must conceal it to get the rest of the Three-Seas onboard. Of course, anything is possible in a book that we haven't read. view post


posted 02 Mar 2007, 06:03 by vercint, Peralogue

[quote="anor277":307r03jm] It's also based on the knowledge that the Consult is actively seeking the Dunyain; with their enormous resources of manpower it's very probable that they will find them. What happens then if the Consult find the Dunyain? It's hard to believe that the Dunyain will remain in a subservient position for long. [/quote:307r03jm] That's true, unless the Consult have learned that listening to Dunyain is a bad idea; with no sorcery at their disposal, the Dunyain stand no chance against the Consult. [quote="anor277":307r03jm] While you are entitled to your own opinion, I would take the opposite view here; Kellhus knows the truth though he must conceal it to get the rest of the Three-Seas onboard. Of course, anything is possible in a book that we haven't read.[/quote:307r03jm] Ah, but isn't it better to say that Kellhus [i:307r03jm]thinks[/i:307r03jm] he knows the truth, and that he must conceal it in order to save the Three Seas; that seems to be the suggestion of that curious scene in TTT when he's talking to he world... the question is, does he know the truth, or is he simply deceiving himself? He seems very certain of himself, but remember, 'it is when you are most certain that you are most certain to be deceived'... view post


posted 02 Mar 2007, 14:03 by Harrol, Moderator

It appears that Kellhus believes in some sort of a divinity and he believes he is a tool of sorts to that divinity. I do not believe Kellhus believes he is divine. If he did then why make make an excuse to the world for not enlightening the men of the tusk to the truth? view post


posted 05 Mar 2007, 20:03 by Alpha Crow, Candidate

Good points. A few others perhaps: - All kings of the past claimed to be appointed and holy by God. It sort of reminds me of the catch 22 (good book) if you are crazy and say you are... - I'm very sure that when that bird/man consult thing asked someone about the dunyain, he knew the OLD group of them. My thought is he knew of the pacifistic group that probably wandered the earth, telling of the end of the world and all that prior to finding the northern fastness. - I wonder how well the dunyain could fight an army. Individually they are allegedly without equal. But I recall back to the germanians versus the romans. Now, dunyain could conceivably adapt to group fighting very, very quickly. But from some comments about Kellhus about needing to be taught about war and about reading a manual on how to use something... - Do you think the part about not understanding war had some import? He learned it quickly (at least from the book's POV). Do you think that his lack of knowledge on it was important? Perhaps he learned it wrongly or only in certain kinds of battles? I doubt that was what the author intended. Perhaps the big hallubaloo was to show his quickness to learn, to make a need for Cnaiur, OR to show that the dunyain don't understand war, just individual combat... Just some thoughts. One thing that still gets me is that on their way to the end battle of TTT and WP, Kellhus does some amazing things. Most importantly he finds water, but at the time the book acts like it's completely normal the way he points it out, like he had some archaic knowledge of how to find it or just something he puzzled out or saw that nobody else did. But then at the end, he didn't even know (or so he claimed). I think a LOT of stuff is like that. I think he has a lot of hidden reasons and knowledge he keeps from others. At the end where he says both types of Gods speak to him, I think he meant more than what we've seen so far as readers. view post


posted 05 Mar 2007, 23:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote:375hydg9]- I'm very sure that when that bird/man consult thing asked someone about the dunyain, he knew the OLD group of them. My thought is he knew of the pacifistic group that probably wandered the earth, telling of the end of the world and all that prior to finding the northern fastness. [/quote:375hydg9] What evidence do you hold that the Consult knew the old group because quite frankly I havent seen any evidence to suggest this however we have seen evidence that the Consult have no idea who the Dunyain are. Now I suppose its possible they knew at the time of the Apocalypse of the Dunyain but because it didnt mark them as important they forgot them. [quote:375hydg9]- I wonder how well the dunyain could fight an army. Individually they are allegedly without equal. But I recall back to the germanians versus the romans. Now, dunyain could conceivably adapt to group fighting very, very quickly. But from some comments about Kellhus about needing to be taught about war and about reading a manual on how to use something...[/quote:375hydg9] Possibly but I doubt it, the Dunyain are very adaptible the only problem in terms of fighting and war for them would be sorecerors, you must also realize Kellhus needed knowledge of war because he was with non-dunyain who are less superior in terms of fighting. view post


posted 06 Mar 2007, 06:03 by Alpha Crow, Candidate

Ok, I'll try to find it tomorrow, but when the consult bird-man is 'torturing' a man about who Kellhus is (I think the first instance of them trying to find info on him), he says dunyain from the north, and the consult bird-man makes a comment about "that group of wandering doom-sayers?!" (paraphrased, don't have it in front of me). He sounds surprised, as in at the turn of the last age they were pacifistic monks with perhaps an end-of-the-earth mindset, much like the beginning of the whole series. It's probably in WP, but I'd have to thumb through a lot to find it. Anyone have a fresh read that can help out? I actually doubt the dunyain would do as well at fighting highly disciplined soldiers as others may think. They have no experience, and while they would easily adapt I'm sure, lack of experience is big AND their fighting style is individual and very mobile. It's hard to affect probabilities when you must occupy a very tight space in a line. I, again, imagine something like the barbaric germanians who were fierce fighters, but evenutally lost to the group efforts of the roman fighting style. view post


posted 06 Mar 2007, 14:03 by Curethan, Didact

Ok, my point was that Kellhus sees the haloes around his own hands - that he believes he is manifesting some divine power or destiny. Also, the consult would seek out any organization based on the power that Kellhus displays. Knowing what a threat they could present their potenial power must be either harnessed or destroyed - obviously a pre-emptive strike is the objective. Which leads to the question of what the Dunyain will/would do when found. All that the reader knows of them is what Kellhus has revealed to others and through his recollections of his training. Although that Kellhus usually speaks the truth in preference to a lie, as the truth is far more durable and poweful as a manipulative tool, it is still only the truth as he knows it, and it is worth noting that he was certainly not in the upper ranks of this organization, and would certainly not have know all that there is to know about the dunyain. Remember the Dunyain are masters of controlling their emotions, and of reading and manipulating the emotions and knowledge of others. This is certainly illustrated in the meeting between Mog and Kel. Although the Dunyain deny all infleunce of the outside world in their training in the course of trying to develop the self moving soul - they would obviously know of its existence... Kelhus stated that the Dunyain know nothing of sorcery, however they certainly used to... My point here is that the elders of the Dunyain could quite conceivably be a lot more knowledgable and powerful than many of you would think. Suppose that after a certain level of training and conditioning, one could be adjudged to have failed to become a self-moving soul, yet to have achieved a level of control and wisdom that one becomes suitable to train and refine tecniques for the next generation? At this point, rather than being purged as a failure, one would become an elder and learn more of the outside world, sorcery and other things that would otherwise taint the conditioning process and become a protector, teacher etc (where else do they get the subjects the learn to 'read faces' from) Obviously this theory does not explain why Kellhus was sent to track down Mog - unless the elders know alot more than anyone else.... but there could well have be a copy of the Cellomnian prophecies lying around in that citadel somewhere. This is obviously pretty far-fetched, but to me it makes more sense than the consult knocking on the door, having a bit of tea with the dunyain and convincing them that killing everyone else in the world, sealing it from the outside and becoming immortal, masterbating perverts is just as much fun (and almost the same thing) as breeding a transcendant superbeing :wink: view post


posted 06 Mar 2007, 20:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote:4c705n12]I actually doubt the dunyain would do as well at fighting highly disciplined soldiers as others may think. They have no experience, and while they would easily adapt I'm sure, lack of experience is big AND their fighting style is individual and very mobile. It's hard to affect probabilities when you must occupy a very tight space in a line. I, again, imagine something like the barbaric germanians who were fierce fighters, but evenutally lost to the group efforts of the roman fighting style.[/quote:4c705n12] Your point about the Romans is somewhat invalid because the reason the Romans were able to overcome the Germanic tribes was because of better training and mainly [u:4c705n12]discipline [/u:4c705n12] who do you know in the series that is more disciplined than a Dunyain I cannot think of anyone. Besides look at the Beginning of TDTCB, Kellhus is already able to kill all the Sranc and likely could have defeated Meketerig if not for his use of sorcery. Dunyain seem to have more than a basic grasp of fighting skills along with their ability to quickly learn. The only disadvantage would be in term of numbers and lack of sorcery. view post


posted 07 Mar 2007, 02:03 by Alpha Crow, Candidate

Not sure you're reading me right. Discipline is necessary to fight in ranks, which is not a one sided coin. What ALSO is necessary is for you to STAY in your position. If you dodge out of the way of an incoming arrow, would it not fly into your friends behind you? The dunyain fight with mobility, from what we've seen. Use numbers against them and if you can force them to fight in groups, you've defeated one of their big advantages. I would guess the dunyain would fight skirmisher battles on small scales and work the enemy down. A good example is Kellhus magical battle, where him remaining in one place was causing him to lose, whereas when he goes mobile... view post


posted 07 Mar 2007, 09:03 by Curethan, Didact

I doubt the Dunyain would be able to field an army, let alone form ranks. Their habit of culling initiates would suggest a limited population. view post


posted 09 Mar 2007, 03:03 by Alpha Crow, Candidate

You're right... and I try not to get into the "nuh uh, in REALITY they would ____." debates. Going back to the main topic, I still wonder at how much we're not told during the Moe/Kell meeting. Or is it Kell/Moe... Kill/Mo'... Kill/More?! Wait, never mind. Having read a lot of Gene Wolfe's books, I tend to try to look for all that's NOT said for the answer. Doesn't mean Bakker writes like that, perhaps. I think that Kell meant the No God speaks to him more often than those dreams he has sometimes. I wonder if it means he will go mad? Refresh me, whose dreams was it that the No-God asked different questions or did something different than normal for the dreams sequence? view post


posted 09 Mar 2007, 14:03 by Harrol, Moderator

That was Akka's last dream before renouncing his school and his prophet. view post


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