the archives

dusted off in read-only

  •  

posts by Incu-Pacifico Peralogue | joined 01 Oct 2006 | 52


Anoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... posted 01 Oct 2006, 19:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

At the end of TTT, someting happened to Achamian to change the nature of Seswatha's dream. Instead of the being with Celmonas and hearing the words of the No-God, he instead is with Anaxophus who says the same words as the No God. Interesting. Any thoughts on what this means as far as the nature of the No-God is concerned? Were these High Kings somehow connected to Mog-Pharu through means unknowned. Is one of Seswatha's dreams in fact a lie? view post


Inchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... posted 01 Oct 2006, 19:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

After finishing TTT, one thing is obvious - for whatever reason the Inchoroi and sorcerers (at least some) have the same goal - to save themselves from being damned. The evidence for this is in the glossary for TTT. Shaeonanra, the grandmaster of the defunct Mangaecca School discovered the means by which sorcers could save themselves. It doesn't mention exactly *what* he discovered, but if you put the pieces together, it's obvious that they discovered what the Inchoroi already knew - by killing all life, one could seal the the world from the Outside. Thus the Mangaecca have a common goal with the Inchoroi and subsequently fold themsevles into the Inchoroi fold, calling themselves The Consult. Some questions. Where is Shaeonanra now? What is his place in The Consult? The glossary mentions that he never died, making him about 3,000 years old. view post


Re: Inchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... posted 02 Oct 2006, 01:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="anor277":1lzwtwqi] Achamian also mentioned him in the novel proper....[/quote:1lzwtwqi] Do you remember where this was or which book? I'd like to reread that part. view post


posted 07 Oct 2006, 00:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Harrol":dgqeycd5]I can not answer all your questions but my thought is that Seswatha's dream changed in order to warn Akka rather than deceive. Akka went through to dramatic experiences with Seswatha. One being the time he was captive to the Scarlet Spire and the other when Kellhus hypnotized him in order to talk to Seswatha. I believe both these experiences opened up a more direct link between Akka and Seswatha.[/quote:dgqeycd5] That begs the question - to warn Akka of what? What could be different about Anoxophus mirroring the words of the No God vs the original dream? Maybe Akka is seeing truth now? Maybe Seswatha's Heart is part of some eleborate ruse? I don't know, just throwing stuff out there. And what do we make of Kellus's No-God dreams. After all, he never even touched Seswatha's Heart! Perhaps he somehow had indirect contact via the hypnotism you mentioned? view post


posted 07 Oct 2006, 00:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

So does anyone know where Shaeonanra is mentioned? And if anyone has the link on the nature of damnation, that'd be sweet! view post


posted 08 Oct 2006, 22:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Thanks White Lord, for both those posts! The second post with Scott's words was especially enlightening, specifically the bit about "certain acts" attracting the attention of outside agencies. I guess one such act is the act of sorcery - we know certain kinds of socery (Daimos) *definitely* attracts unwanted attention. But it would seem *any* kind of sorcery results in damnation, though no mention is made of what happens to non-Daimotic sorcerers. What is the nature of their damnation? This also begs the question of what the Inchoroi were doing to attract the attention of Outside agencies that would cause the Inchoroi people to want to seal themsevles away. view post


posted 08 Oct 2006, 22:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Evil? heh I question whether Bakker has any concept of good or evil (as we typically define them) in his stories. ;) view post


posted 10 Oct 2006, 02:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Harrol":3euamoz5]I believe seswatha perceives Kellhus's weakness and that he is a susceptible to the no-god's influence and the fact that Kellhus listens to the no-god. Those things make him a possible instrument of the no-god more so that an ally of the consult.[/quote:3euamoz5] Weakness? It seems to me that Kellus is one of the strongest characters in the series (mentally even moreso than physically). view post


posted 10 Oct 2006, 02:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Cynical Cat":22kv5we7]To add to White Lord's comments, the Fanim believe that the Cisharum aren't damned, but holy. [/quote:22kv5we7] Well the metaphysics of the Cishaurim is different from the other schools of sorcery...and I believe there was a mention of some questioning whether Cishaurim was actually sorcery at all. So perhaps the nature of the Pshuke protects its practitioners from getting that unwanted attention? [quote:22kv5we7] Sorcery is condemned by the Tusk, but it is a collection of religious documents written by men, although possibly be men with some understanding of Agencies of the Outside (or maybe not) and added two and commented on, not the least by Inrithas and Kelhus. Even previous to Kelhus, the condemnation of sorcery by the Tusk has been challenged by scholars in the Three Seas ([i:22kv5we7]In Defence of Sorcery [/i:22kv5we7]is mentioned several times.) [/quote:22kv5we7] I'd forgotten about the multiple mentions of "In Defence of Sorcery". I'll need to review what was said in those passages. There's probably some key insights there... [quote:22kv5we7] Our view is somewhat coloured by having most of the books's viewpoint characters raised in a culture that believes all sorcery is abominable and taking place mostly among the Inrithi. Even Akka is tormented by his damnation. Only Kelhus is detatched from considerations (with the possible exception of Conphas :wink: ).[/quote:22kv5we7] IMO, most of the sorcerers don't seem tormented by damnation so much as resolved to it. It seems kind of a strange position to take. view post


posted 12 Oct 2006, 00:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Cynical Cat":j2180b8w] Kelhus gives us our best explanation on why the Pshuke is different than other forms of sorcery. It is still sorcery, merely undistinguishable from the natural world. Most tellingly, it is still affected by chorae. The attitudes of the Cishaurim might score them some points with the Outside or they might not. We don't know. [/quote:j2180b8w] I remember mention being made that Pshuke was more emotion-based than the Anagogic socery (logic based). Also, it didn't leave a "mark" and was invisible to the logic-based Anagogic schools. As you said though, chorae still affect them. Hmmm...I think there's a clue there somewhere...if only we could figure it out. :) Perhaps it has something to do with logic going against the "natural flow"? [quote:j2180b8w] As for the Mandate, they are the defenders of the world against extermination. They have not only power, but a higher purpose and their saying reflects that. Which, of course, leads to Akka's friend's speculation that they who sacrifice their very souls for the opportunity to defend the world and expect only damnation are the holiest of men.[/quote:j2180b8w] Yes, this is exactly right. For the Mandate. However, I don't think it's true for the other schools. They're not serving a higher cause, though many still seem to feel condemned to damnation (see, Iyokus's conversation with the demon). view post


posted 12 Oct 2006, 00:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Harrol":1kbvseie]Yes but he has the whole sense of communicating with God. In doing that I believe he is actually openning himself up to be a conduit for the No-god. That is why I mentioned a weakness.[/quote:1kbvseie] Hmm, is he communicating with (the)God? It did seem he was communicating with the No-God at one point....or that's what he thought. Perhaps there's a clue as to the nature of the No-God here? Kellhus grasps the Thousandfold Thought (what exactly is this anyway?) and seemingly opens himself up to the No-God at this point. There's a clue, but I'm missing it.... view post


posted 13 Oct 2006, 04:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="anor277":usdlthuf] The demons (and arguably the Gods) are vulnerable to chorae (well at least Iyokus' demon on top of Shimeh sensed a chorae as an absence). [/quote:usdlthuf] I believe the Demons and Gods are one in the same -- they are all simply outside agencies. Whether something is a demon or a god simply depends on your perspective. For example, the Fanim consider the Hundred Gods to all be Demons. view post


Is Kellus the No-God? End of TTT and being in the whirlwind. posted 14 Oct 2006, 07:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellus the No-God? End of TTT and being in the whirlwind. by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

The end of TTT has to make you wonder. Kellus in the whirlwind of debris (to protect himself from the chorae) sounds suspciously like our buddy the No-God and HIS whirlwind. Is the No God's Carapace in fact this swirling shower of debris? Also at one point, Kellus reconsidered the solidity of the Principle of Before and After (at Mengedda, I believe). Could the Consult Tekne research (during the Investitures) in fact be Time Travel research? Were they somehow able to get Kellus to come back in time and through his great power and mastery of Gnosis cause the Apocolypse? The question remains, what reason would he want this? Well Kellus accused his father of wanting to bring about the Apocolypse. Or more accurately, he said that his father would *have* to bring about the Apocolypse in order to master his circumstances. Now is Kellus stuck in the same trap as his father? Food for thought... view post


posted 14 Oct 2006, 21:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellus the No-God? End of TTT and being in the whirlwind. by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

You bring up good points about inconsistencies, White Lord. I guess I was throwing those thoughts out there to see if anything would stick. However, even given the inconsistencies you mentioned, I'm sure there's a connection somehow...I'm just missing it or as you said, it hasn't been fully revealed in this trilogy. Oh well. view post


posted 14 Oct 2006, 21:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Harrol":ugif8crm]Incu I do not fully grasp it either. I guess with the cumulutive series of events i.e. the Mog Pharu talking to Kellhus and Akka's dreams I have serious doubts about Kellhus now.[/quote:ugif8crm] So do you think Moenghus was correct? Was Kellhus broken by his ordeal? He nearly died in TDTCB from exposure due to his inability to process everything. Being hung in the circumfix by his dead wife wasn't too easy either. I personally don't think he's "lost it", but I guess it's a possibility worth considering. view post


Why did Moenghus leave Ishual? posted 17 Oct 2006, 03:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhy did Moenghus leave Ishual? by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Was this ever explained? And if not, do you have any theories? view post


posted 17 Oct 2006, 03:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="vercint":68gobd0y][quote="anor277":68gobd0y] Broken by his ordeal, or tempered? The Dunyain are undeniably supermen, but I think most of us agree that they are a little bit less than human. Kellhus, with Dunyain training and human experience, could indeed be something more than either party. Certainly, in the short term, I see him as a more capable and a more just ruler than Shriah, emperor, or Scarlet Spires.[/quote:68gobd0y] Certainly Kellhus becoming more human than the Dunyain is a good thing. The question is what he means when he says that he is 'more'. It could be as you say that he simply has come to acknowledge emotions and values do exist and do mean something. This would make him a far better ruler than any world-born man. On the other hand it could be that he has come to believe that the lies he has told in order to become Aspect-Emperor are true. If he genuinely believes that he is the Harbringer and chosen by the God and that he cannot do wrong, then you can imagine how he might cease to be a good ruler.[/quote:68gobd0y] He believes what the Mandate Schoolmen believe, he hears the No God, and he sees the halos about his hands. He thinks he's the Harbringer. Now whether that makes him a better ruler remains to be seen. :) view post


Re: Why did Moenghus leave Ishual? posted 18 Oct 2006, 03:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhy did Moenghus leave Ishual? by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="anor277":8fytiuwz][quote="Incu-Pacifico":8fytiuwz]Was this ever explained? And if not, do you have any theories?[/quote:8fytiuwz] It was briefly explained in the first novel (or the second?). A pack of Sranc blundered into Ishual, were dealt with, and Moenghus was despatched to gain intelligence on Sranc incursions. When he returned he was judged to be contaminated (a visit to Atrithau perhaps?), and was banished from Ishual. Moenghus then turns up in the hands of the Scylvendi, who apparently rescued him from slavery at the hands of the Sranc.[/quote:8fytiuwz] Thank you anor. I remember reading something about this, and I looked through the books briefly and couldn't find the right passages. Then I began to wonder if I hallcinated my memory (hey, it happens! ). Thanks for confirming that I'm not insane. ;) view post


posted 18 Oct 2006, 03:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

There are a couple of hints that Kellus isn't quite your typical Dunyain. I remember the scene in "The Darkness That Comes Before" where he sits staring at nature all day long, marveled by it's beauty. Either that's an early slip-up by Bakker, or it's a hint that Kellus isn't quite as robotic as his Dunyain brethren. Perhaps he was "corrupted" before he even left Ishual. view post


posted 18 Oct 2006, 04:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Harrol":6mzcax7p]It will be interesting to see in the answers in AE. Scott is such a master of with holding conclusive information.[/quote:6mzcax7p] Translation: Scott is an evil bastard. :twisted: view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 01:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="anor277":5gf2jxp9][quote="Warrior-Poet":5gf2jxp9]By telling his Father that he is the Harbringer and speaks to a higher being shows that he certainly believes he is aprophet of some sort because telling his father that as a lie would serve Kellhus no purpose.[/quote:5gf2jxp9] ...You may be right; then again Kellhus may think he is that [i:5gf2jxp9]higher being[/i:5gf2jxp9], greater than the Dunyain, greater than any sorceror (like that old joke, "I must be a God, because when I was praying, I realized that I was talking to myself"). Anyway as harbinger, self-perceived or otherwise, he has his work cut out.[/quote:5gf2jxp9] He believes he's the Harbringer and Bakker provides a few clues. Kellus sees the halos about his hands. This was something that until that moment was only revealed from the viewpoints of other characters. When this was mentioned from their viewpoints, I thought these were fake visions caused by their idolation of Kellus. There was no indication that Kellus actually saw these himself or that these were real until his dialogue with Moe. Also, Moe knew nothing about the haloes and so Kellus had nothing to gain by lying to him about them....and I doubt lying would work anyway. Also, his use of words like "wicked" when describing the Consult is meaningless in normal Dunyain discourse (as revealed explicitly by Moe). Yes he may have been trying to throw his father for a loop, but I think Bakker would have mentioned this. I also believe a Dunyain would use far subtler techniques to fool another Dunyain. view post


Re: Thoughts on Kellhus uniting Schools posted 20 Oct 2006, 01:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThoughts on Kellhus uniting Schools by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Warrior-Poet":1jx2t6gu]With the Schools weakened greatly what are your ideas about whats next for them. I personally think that Kellhus will unite the Schools into one Super School. Not only does Kellhus have enough power to do this he also has good reason to do it, by uniting the Schools animosity and war between Schools would cease to exist and help focus on a common enemy(The Consult).[/quote:1jx2t6gu] Really, only the Red Spires were weakened. The other schools weren't really affected by the Holy War since they didn't commit anything to it. Regardless unification is definitely possible and would make sense depending on how Kellus approaches battling the Consult. However Bakker hasn't given any hints that this will happen. view post


posted 29 Oct 2006, 07:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNo-God's questions by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Warrior-Poet":2x8v2dxs]I think the lack of awareness is a good possibility but it seems a little to simple for Bakkers ideas, I feel as though their needs to be something deeper.[/quote:2x8v2dxs] The No God is most definitely self aware. However, beyond that, we know nothing. Here are some of the clues: a) He repeats the words of Anaxophus in Akka's modified dreams. Of course, we're left wondering if the original dreams were true or if the new dreams are a lie b) His words are repeated by the Sranc in unison. c) WHAT AM I? WHAT DO YOU SEE? This is a confused and blind creature, but NOT a creature who is not self aware. He *is* self aware. So what can we conclude based on these clues? Not much. The No God is somehow connected to the Sranc and possibly even to mankind (e.g. Anaxophus), but completely unware of what he is or even able to see (which caused many readers to incorrectly conclude that he isn't self aware). He is the ultimate creation of the Inchoroi, but his exact nature isn't explained yet. He's definitely one of Bakker's more interesting enigmas. Edit: Changed Celmonas reference to Anaxophus. Doh! view post


posted 30 Oct 2006, 04:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNo-God's questions by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote:tz5fulj7]I am not sure which part of the books you are refering to here. Celmonas only appears in one scene towards the start of Prince of Nothing. [/quote:tz5fulj7] Doh! You're right. I meant to say Anaxophus. I have no idea what Celmonas popped into my head. Change has been made. ;) view post


posted 30 Oct 2006, 04:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNo-God's questions by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Murrin":24019yqo] Myself, I think the No-God may have been some element of the Outside that the Consult trapped in the World, sealed within the Carapace. If the thing that became the No-God (that becomes the No-God when this is done to it) was not of the World, it would have difficulty understanding the World if it suddenly found itself trapped there.[/quote:24019yqo] Maybe. But what about our face changing friends? What about the Sranc? They seem to posses some means of self-awareness. Or perhaps they are machines pretending at self awareness because that's what they were programmed to do. Do they have souls? The book leaves this open. Perhaps they posses some trapped elements of the Outside as you suggest the No-God does. view post


posted 01 Nov 2006, 03:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNo-God's questions by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Will":3e261acs]Several times in the books Sarcellus is described as a well trained animal. What passes for thoughts pass through what passes for its soul, etc. It seems that creations of the Tekne are as self-aware as your dog, just far better trained. It lacks the complexity of a human mind, being entirely concerned with achieving climax, which it can do only at the bidding of its masters..[/quote:3e261acs] The book suggests that the "complexity" of the human mind is overrated. The Dunyain master circumstances by knowing "what comes before". They know the programming that drives men and so are able to manipulate "regular" humans in ways simular to the ways the Consult manipulates the face changers and Sranc. This begs an interesting philosophical question. If man can be as easily manipulated as these creatures, what gives him the right to say *he* has a soul and not these creations? view post


Re: Akka needs a hug. posted 09 Nov 2006, 05:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAkka by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Fruitbat":1v5bi4tc]Hello... this is my first so be gentle... :roll: I think Achamian the moral marker of the books. By this I mean that in a world full of near-gods, kings and the Dunyain Akka is the only character that I could really understand the motavations of. (ok... Esmi too.. but thats another chunk of a topic). At the end of TTT I don't think his leaving the Aspect Emperor's court represents a turn to powers that would seek to distroy the world. It seemed more like a man who finally really SAW what was happening and facing it. He's not running away from his future anymore, he's limping off to meet it.[/quote:1v5bi4tc] I agree with this. There's no indication at all that Akka is about the join the Consult. After all, they'd just tried to kill him! However, assuming he never reconcilses with Kellus, the Consult may leave him alone since he presumably would stop trying to teach Kellus more of the Gnosis (though it seems he's already created a monster). view post


posted 24 Nov 2006, 09:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellus the No-God? End of TTT and being in the whirlwind. by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

I agree, Phil. The connection between the No-God and Kellus has been established (the No-God speaks to him after all!). What remains to be seen is the exact nature of that connection. I too kind of feel that he is either the No-God or somehow responsible for its creation....but I have no idea how that would work. I threw out time travel as food for thought (and suggested the Tekne as the means for that), but I really have no idea at all. Bakker has provided clues as to the No-God's nature but they are WAAY, WAAAY too (deliberately!) obtuse to draw any conclusions from. Damn you Scott! :) view post


Re: Who was Kellus talking to? posted 13 Dec 2006, 08:12 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWho was Kellus talking to? by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":j4rglmgd]TTT, Shimeh, page 289-290: ------ [quote:j4rglmgd]"I know you can hear me", he said to the world, dark and sacred. "I know that you listen." "What was I to do?" he replied. "They attend only to what lies before their eyes. They listen only to what pleases their ears. Things unseen, things unheard...they trust to you." "What was I to do? Tell them the [i:j4rglmgd]truth[/i:j4rglmgd]?"[/quote:j4rglmgd] ---- Anyone care to speculate on what happened during this "exchange"? Who was Kellus talking to? What is this truth he speaks of?[/quote:j4rglmgd] view post


posted 14 Dec 2006, 04:12 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWho was Kellus talking to? by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Mahajanga Mordecai":2g3a4tox]Why, the god(s) of course. Ever present, watching, "listening;" he was defending his choices to those who dare to judge.[/quote:2g3a4tox] I think he was speaking to the No-God. There's something about the No-God that the bastard Bakker isn't telling us. :) Oh and sorry about the double post. I meant to merely correct some spelling, but somehow the "edit" became a new post. Doh! view post


posted 16 Dec 2006, 04:12 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWho was Kellus talking to? by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Harrol":39fsh0ny]I also thought he was speaking to the gods/God. It appeared he was trying to justify himself to some higher power. My only doubt about the No-God being the one he adresses is the fact that the No-God would not care.[/quote:39fsh0ny] I misspoke. I meant to say the God. ( Or rather, I think [i:39fsh0ny]he [/i:39fsh0ny]believes it was The God). I remember him telling Moe that the God speaks to him. As for who it really was? I can't quite rule out our buddy, Mog P. view post


posted 30 Mar 2007, 05:03 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Good question. Kellus will be focused on one thing - stopping the Second Apocolypse. It's interesting that he's still working on this 20 years following book 3.... As for the "muderous" reference...there is a VERY interesting potential dynamic here. Serwe's child with Kellus (actually, Cnaiur) will probably see himself as Kellus's rightful heir over Kellus's true child. Interesting court dynnamics there. And the thought of a half Dunyain child running around without daddy's influence is kind of scary. :) (I might be jumping the gun in thinking Kellus won't be around to raise the little brat though :) ) view post


Re: "Murderous Children" posted 30 Mar 2007, 05:03 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Guardsman Bass":3lq63ojo]It mentioned this on the Amazon plot synopsis. Do you suppose it possibly refers to antagonism between Esmi's child and not-so-little Moenghus? [/quote:3lq63ojo] Absolutely. view post


posted 31 Mar 2007, 04:03 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

As far as I can tell, the origins of the Dunyain are still a complete mystery. All we know is a little of their beliefs and through Kellus's memories, we know a bit about how they train their young (the part about the "defectives" was chilling). Anyway, it doesn't seem we have definitive proof that the Dunyain were desperate stragglers of the Apocolypse or proof that they were displaced etc. Hopefully Akka's wonderings will clear some of that up. I'm certainly *very* interested in knowing their origins. view post


posted 31 Mar 2007, 04:03 in The Judging EyeMaithanet by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

I've wondered about this too. Though his father claimed that he didn't have the complete abilities of a full-blooded Dunyain, Maithanet was still *extremely* formidable. For example, the way he handled that skin spy (or even the fact that he noticed him for what he was) seems to be beyond the ability of "regular" people. That's why I tend to brush aside speculation that Serwe's son would match the physical capabilities of Esmi's. It's be interesting to see if Maithanet accompanies Kellus to Golgaterath, removes the restrictions on sorcery, or rules the Three Seas while Kellus goes into Golgoteroth without him. view post


posted 31 Mar 2007, 10:03 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Good point, Jamara. I'd completely forgotten about that passage. But still, given what we know about the Dunyain and their deceptiveness, it does call to question what their true state was at that time. It's hard for me to imagine them being truely desperate, though I guess it's possible that their philosopy wasn't as refined at that time. view post


posted 01 Apr 2007, 04:04 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Jamara":yuw3xl2u]I agree. As I was typing up the qoute, it came to me that what is described of the Dunyain is from the young boy's perspective. This is how he sees them. Which is how the Dunyain work. They could have cried out if it were the shortest path, a lie. Because the next sentence after what I quoted speaks of them scaling the walls. So they weren't haggard enough to prevent them from scaling the walls of a fortress.[/quote:yuw3xl2u] Another interesting question is why was Kellus's line chosen as the "special line" for the Dunyain's selective breeding? Presumably they'd been around years before finding Ishual and had already started their selective breeding program. Or maybe it was the case that Kellus's line of selective breeding was just one of many. Kellus's memory after all made reference to several other children. Did all these kids survive into adulthood? We know a lot about the Dunyain, but there's still so much we don't know... view post


posted 03 Apr 2007, 05:04 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Curethan":hddc8vyi]Why send anyone out 'scouting'? [/quote:hddc8vyi] Apparently those pesky Sranc threatened the Dunyain's isolation. [quote:hddc8vyi]Escpecially if they would then very likely be considered 'contaminated' and defective... Hmm, mebe Mo was considered - expendable ;)[/quote:hddc8vyi] I thinkthe Dunyain consider anyone expendable. After all, everyone who was touched by Moe's magic telephone call willingly killed themselves. view post


Re: Achamian posted 03 Apr 2007, 05:04 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Achamian by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Moigle90":19q7jpkb]In twenty years Achamians going to be pretty old, at least sixty (I always thought of him being around 40) . And in those days (by those days i mean the middle ages which is pretty much where the threeseas are technology-wise.) thats pretty old. Plus it calls his goal of seeking the Dunyain, a "mad" quest. So i kindof picture him as this crazy old man. Its sorta sad though because he was my favorite character and basically was screwed (can i say that?) over in Prince of Nothing. I really want him to get his revenge... or something. He deserves it.[/quote:19q7jpkb] Agree with Warrior - Akka won't be crazy...or at least not that crazy. Cnaiur was driven mad, but I don't think that will happen to Akka. I think he'll be deadly sane. Everyone else will be under Kellus's spell. And as far as revenge...hmmm...not sure how I feel about that quite yet. I'm glad he's no longer under Kellus's influence. Beforehand, Conphas was the only intelligent character who couldn't be seduced by Kellus. He was a very good character and I was sad to see him kick the bucket. I think a non-mad Akka who sees Kellus for what he truly is will provide an interesting perspective. view post


posted 05 Apr 2007, 04:04 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Moigle90":3scdg00x]I agree with buckethead. The Dunyain don't even believe in the consult or anything supernatural at all (i think). In the prologue of Darkness when Kellhus is with Leweth, it says that Kellhus thinks of the apocalypse as a legend or a myth just like the rest of Leweth's beliefs in demons and spirits[/quote:3scdg00x] This is kind of a tough point - what we know is that the [i:3scdg00x]Conditioned [/i:3scdg00x]aren't [i:3scdg00x]taught [/i:3scdg00x]about Sorcery or the Apocolypse. Or at least they are taught that these things are fables. But we know from Kellus's flashbacks that there are other members of the Dunyain...notably the Pragma. What does he know? And it would seem at some point [i:3scdg00x]someone [/i:3scdg00x]in the Dunyain had to believe in Sorcery, especially after the Apocolypse. They intentionally scrubbed sorceruous marks from Ishual after all. Perhaps the Pragma has knowledge of the true nature of Sorcery...it's an interesting point to ponder. [quote="Jamara":3scdg00x]It's true that the Dunyain seek enlightenment through seclussion, but enlightenment of what? Well, that's an easy answer, a self-moving soul. But to what end? Why do they want to create a self-moving soul? Do they see an ultimate purpose for creating a self-moving soul?[/quote:3scdg00x] Yes, The Absolute, the self-moving soul is their ultimate goal. These followup questions are very good ones. Were the Dunyain forged by the Apocolypse? Or did they exist before? Or did they exist before the Apocolypse and were changed by it? All great questions that I'm sure Bakker will be very slow in answering. :) view post


posted 05 Apr 2007, 04:04 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Achamian by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Moigle90":1ghmwy92]and even if he does find ishual, what then? What would the dunyain do with him? probably kill him? Maybe he tells them how he knows kellhus or warns them of the apocalypse. But even still, i think they'd kill him on the spot. If they would commit suicide just for recieving dreams from moenghus because he was tainted by the outside world. What would they do with a real stranger?[/quote:1ghmwy92] I doubt if the Dunyain could just kill Akka at this point. In addition to their intellect and their ability to seduce people, the Dunyain's greatest power lies in people's ignorance of them. People have no idea what the Dunyain's philosophy is and no idea how they operate. In fact, they've never seen or heard of anything like the Dunyain...at least they don't think they have. There's probably some scroll somewhere with a paragraph or two discussing a fringe cult who call themselves Dunyain. Anyway, once people find out the truth of the Dunyain, they either go mad trying to resist (Cnaiur) or become something else (Akka). After 20 years of studying them and his experiences with Kellus, I doubt Akka could be "just killed" by even the Dunyain. view post


posted 11 Apr 2007, 06:04 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Kellus generally speaks the truth (he mostly just tell people who drives them since they themselves have no idea), he will toss in the occasional fib to get his way. When he shows emotion for example, it's almost always manipulative. [quote="Jamara":1bxaix2i]I really think that Kellhus's perspective/POV/motivations are altered by the Circumfixion. I'm just wondering to what end.[/quote:1bxaix2i] Good question. He has definitely been changed...and there were hints of *real* emotion towards Serwe during the process (via his thinking). I believe Kellus thinks he's the Harbringer and he ain't faking it. :) view post


posted 15 Apr 2007, 21:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Holy War and the Consult by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Jamara has it mostly right. I'm not sure I remember where it says the Consult used the Holy War to wipe out the Cishaurim. As I recall, after the Cishaurim discovered the skin spies, they assumed the Scarlet Spires created them (even though Moengus tried to dissuade them). So the Ciashaurim assasinated the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires in retaliation, thus starting the secret war between the Scarlet Spires and the Cishaurim. (Maithanet found out about the secret war and was able persuade the Scarlet Spires to join the Holy War because of it). Now as far as the connection between the Holy War of and the Consult...that's a tougher question to answer. The Consult is (was?) everywhere. They'd infiltrated all the Schools, they'd infiltrated the Thousand Temples, they'd infiltrated the Shrial Knights. If there's something involved with anything in the Three Seas, skin spies are present. They're caught up in the Holy War, but they're certainly not controlling it. Maithanet and Moengus conspired to create it and Kellus later controlled it. view post


Is Achamian the No God? (TWP, pg 12)... posted 20 Apr 2007, 23:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Achamian the No God? (TWP, pg 12)... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

This takes place while Achamian is teaching Kellus: [quote="TWP,pg 12":22v46wnj] "[i:22v46wnj]Who am I?[/i:22v46wnj] he would often think, listening to Kellus's melodious voice. [i:22v46wnj]What do you see[/i:22v46wnj]" [/quote:22v46wnj] Hmmm.... Speculate. :) view post


posted 22 Apr 2007, 01:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Achamian the No God? (TWP, pg 12)... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Nauticus":336q38wv]Interesting, but I don't think thats possible. At all.[/quote:336q38wv] A little bit more support for that position would be nice. :) view post


posted 01 May 2007, 06:05 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Breaker of Horses and Men by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

While not my favorite character (Kellus is number one with me still), Cnaiur is definitely *among* my faves. He's number 3 for me (Ikurei Conphas is/was second). He's smarter than the average man, but he still falls into some of their "low" ways (beats his women, kills children of rival, etc). Bakker spends time on Cnaiur's psyche and does a great job of explaining how Cnaiur mostly just apes the actions of his fellow Scylvendi while his inner intelligence constantly forces him to ask himself why he does what he does. If Cnaiur was born in Nansur, I sort of imagine he'd be a great philosopher or at the very least, a highly intelligent general (Conphas level intelligence). view post


posted 01 May 2007, 06:05 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="brandon":3efaqgvs] seriously. sometimes i think readers look far too much into things. at that time, the dunyain were predictably a minor order. what would be the purpose of bakker's initial descriptions at the start of the series of their destitude and self will. they eleiminated all evidence of sorcery conciously. they were destitute. they have have arrived at their present circumstance through 2000 years of selective breeding. somtime what is on the page is as given.[/quote:3efaqgvs] The reason we "look far too much into things" is because one lesson we've been taught about the Dunyain is that what you see rarely lines up with reality when it comes to them. Now you might be right of course. Perhaps they were truly destitute. It's just that every single situation in which a Dunyain character has appeared to be destitute has been some sort of manipulation. It's only natural to question what you see with them. view post


posted 01 May 2007, 06:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWas Cnauir gay? by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Wow, this tired thread is still going? :) I think it's obvious - Cnaiur was not "gay" per se....but he *was* seduced by Moe and that seduction included sex. If Moengus could convince Cnaiur to kill his own father, then convincing him to enter into a manipulative sexual relationship would probably have been small potatos. view post


posted 11 May 2007, 07:05 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="gemrich":26okkuwn]Why does Kellhus kill Moenghus.[/quote:26okkuwn] Kellus kills his father because he surmises that the goals of the Dunyain (isolation) are essentially the same as the Consult(isolation from the outside world). TTT pg 374: "The crimes you've committed, Father...the sins ... When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi. As Dunyain, you will be compelled to master the consquenes of your wickedness. Like the Consult, you will come to see tyranny in what is holy...And you will war as they war." TTT pg 375: "For the Dunyain, it was axiomatic: what was compliant had to be isolated from what was unruly and intractable." - of course here the "compliant" is the world and the "unruly" is the Outside. Thus, Kellus thought that eventually the Dunyain would seek to seal themselves from the Outside through the extermination of life just as the Inchoroi. view post


Akka and the Ciphrang at the end of TTT... posted 19 May 2007, 06:05 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Akka and the Ciphrang at the end of TTT... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

This has probably been discussed before, but has anyone speculated on why the Ciphrang didn't kill Akka at the end of TTT? Assuming I recall correctly, the Akka fought the demon, the demon carried him for a while...and then Akka woke up in some hut. So what happened here? Did Iyokus revoke his command to kill Akka? Another question - why doesn't Kellus have Akka killed following TTT? Hmmm....discuss! view post


posted 19 May 2007, 07:05 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]TTT, that which comes after and golgotterath? by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Bakker is being intentionally vague on what the TTT is, so I doubt if anyone's definition is precisely correct. However, we do know that Kellus's grasp of the TTT gives him the confidence he needs to defeat his father. We do know that he somehow grasps it after hanging in the circumfix. And in all likelyhood it's some extension of the Probability Trance. Moengus came close to grasping it but came up short. Anyway, I suspect in the next series Bakker will end his damnable vagueness and give us a more concrete definition. :) view post


posted 19 May 2007, 07:05 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Akka and the Ciphrang at the end of TTT... by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Well, Scott sorta answers the Ciphrang question himself: http://forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?t=1025 view post


  •  

The Three Seas Forum archives are hosted and maintained courtesy of Jack Brown.