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posts by internalogic Commoner | joined 14 Mar 2008 | 5


posted 14 Mar 2008, 16:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKellhus, his divinity, and his "good guy" status. by internalogic, Commoner

The real question is, 'what motivates Kellhus?' This is actually a pretty deep question. Consider for example: Kellhus' abilities and his way of being in the world, as profound and dramatic as they are, are the result of training; a tradition of training that has gone on for millenia. So how much can his motivations be said to be his own? The cultivation practices of the Dunyain have not reached fruition. Yes, Kellhus mastery of subjective experience dwarfs that of the average person but, compared to the ultimate goal of the Dunyain, it actually has not yet met the standard. The Dunyain seek to transcend motivation itself. To transcend perspective itself. Kellhus has clearly not achieved this as yet. And so, as amazing as all of his experiences are, in the final analysis they just represent a stage in his training. It is possible to view everything he does from this perspective. view post


To be Awake posted 14 Mar 2008, 16:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtTo be Awake by internalogic, Commoner

This is a really significant concept that has come up from time to time. Who in the book thus far has been said to be 'awake'? We can assume that all who have completed Dunyain training are at least basically awake. Cnaiur is said to be awake. Finally, Achamian in The Thousandfold Thought attains this state of being Awake. What do you think it refers to? I am heavily influenced by my own studies and practices in the past, but, for my part, being awake means having an experiential (not merely intellectual) grasp of consciousness itself as an object. Most people live life through our consciousnesses. Someone curses us and we are angry. My wife kisses me and I'm happy. Eventually, we might ask ourselves, 'What is my experience made of?' Is it just some agglomeration of neuroendocrine responses, habitual patterned responses of action and perception developed over time, associations of memory and attention? What is this experience made of? (Think Oliver Sacks) This is one of the questions that prompts people to maintain a practice of contemplative enquiry (i.e. meditation). What does one find when one pursues such a path? I don't know. But our oldest living traditions of contemplative practice all seem to result in what could be called Anatomies of Consciousness. See for example, 'The Five Skandhas' concept of the dharmic religions. I'll stop here. view post


posted 17 Mar 2008, 13:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKellhus, his divinity, and his "good guy" status. by internalogic, Commoner

nah, i don't buy it. By the end of Thousandfold Thought, Kellhus' motivation has become what you describe (i.e., total control). But I don't think that it has been that the whole time. If we go back to The Darkness that Comes Before, Kellhus, having just left Ishual, seems to be on a path of discovery, of himself, of the world, and of the pattern behind all patterns. Kellhus' path, originally, seems to be one of deep contemplation and experiential learning. Remember how he talks about embarking on 'studies' of various people and of various topics. Yes, it could be argued that all of these studies were for the purpose of gaining control but I think that's far from clear, especially at the beginning. Kellhus is not a two-dimensional character with a cut and dry motivation. He goes through a developmental arc, and I think it's not yet finished. The Dunyain seek total control, yes, but not only of the 'other', that would be too simplistic. The Dunyain also seek total conrol of themselves. That is what is meant by transcending motivation. At present, Kellhus has lost sight of that. Why? Because the complexity of the world is overwhelming in comparison to the simpler world of the Dunyain. So, as Kellhus has increasingly gained 'control' (that too is debatable) over others, he seems to be losing control of himself. I think that the control of the self is much more profound than the control of the world. I think the Dunyain try to control as much as possible in order to make it easier to work on controlling the self. At present, Kellhus has gotten 'infected' in a way. He has become aware of a power that he does not yet understand. The power of 'prophecy'. It's undermining many of the key assumptions that have guided his life to this point. I think on some level he is confused and unbalanced. But I don't think that his character is necessarily evil. I believe that evil is essentially the agenda of increasing suffering in others for its own sake. I don't believe that suffering is necessarily even relevant to Kellhus' agenda. (Though we'll have to wait and see.) But I don't think Kellhus is anywhere near the end of his developmental arc. There are still many things about himself and the world that he does not yet understand. He is only godlike in comparison to other people. Not in comparison to himself. As far as key scenes, the first time that Kellhus' internal imbalance is boldly revealed is when he encounters the Inchoroi. At that point, he literally loses control and the Legion (of passions and attachments) within him is unbound. Kellhus is now playing with new forces (sorcery and the Inchoroi) and he has not yet truly gotten his bearings. Later, we see more of Kellhus imbalance in his showing his 'true' face to Achamian. When he almost chokes Akka, while continuing to talk to him in a neutral tone. Then when he is running next to the jackal and answers the jackal's question 'What are you' by saying 'I am your master'. Seems to me that Kellhus' legion is not yet truly tamed. I'm thinking he may learn something surprising to himself about Passion and the Unknown. This may teach him something that he did not know about humanity. view post


posted 18 Mar 2008, 04:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAkka by internalogic, Commoner

I agree too that Achamian is the moral (how was it put?) foundation of the series. I don't see this as the kind of series in which you really judge people as simply good or bad. The whole concept of The Darkness That Comes Before. That is the source of people's thoughts and motivations. But it's dark. That, in a sense, means that no one is truly responsible for his/her actions. It's very much like being a child. The 'awakened' become aware of the darkness. But even the awakened have not illuminated the darkness. That's what the Dunyain are trying to do. Completely illuminate the darkness that comes before. That's not an ending, it's a beginning. One can begin to make conscious choices. Supposedly, anyway. Most people follow Kellhus not by choice, but because Kellhus places himself firmly in their 'Darkness that Comes Before'. Ah! I am just seeing another connection that I'd missed. The Sorceric Rite of Compulsion. They keep explaining that it's not that you're actually compelled from the outside, it's that you actually want to do what the sorcerer is compelling you to do. You feel no separation from what you're being manipulated to do or say. That *too* is using The Darkness that Comes Before. Thus a sorcerer who uses the rite of Compulsion is doing pretty a sorceric version of what Kellhus does. Anyway, my point is just that Achamian has seen through Kellhus' compulsion. Have you noticed that whenever someone does that (first Cnaiur and then Kellhus) they seem to stop being his pal? I don't think Akka has gone to the Consult at all. He just wants to live on his own terms, and his world (and therefore his terms) just got a whole lot bigger. He's found himself in new ways. I think he's on his way to becoming an independent player in the game. view post


posted 18 Mar 2008, 04:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAkka by internalogic, Commoner

I agree too that Achamian is the moral (how was it put?) foundation of the series. I don't see this as the kind of series in which you really judge people as simply good or bad. Take the whole concept of The Darkness That Comes Before. That is the source of people's thoughts and motivations. But it's dark. That, in a sense, means that no one is truly responsible for his/her actions. It's very much like being a child. You have desires, thoughts, and intentions but very little insight into their origins. Compared to the more awakened, the less awakened are as children. The 'awakened' become aware of the darkness. But even the awakened have not illuminated the darkness. That's what the Dunyain are trying to do. Completely illuminate the darkness that comes before. (They're pretty good at it as long as they're in a controlled environment. But now that they're starting to venture out, they might have to revisit a few things.) So awakeing is not an ending, it's a beginning. One can begin to make conscious choices. Supposedly, anyway. Most people follow Kellhus not by choice, but because Kellhus places himself firmly in their 'Darkness that Comes Before'. Ah! I am just seeing another connection that I'd missed. The Sorceric Rite of Compulsion. They keep explaining that it's not that you're compelled from the outside, it's that you actually feel that you want to do what the sorcerer is compelling you to do. You feel no separation from what you're being manipulated to do or say. That *too* is using The Darkness that Comes Before. Thus a sorcerer who uses the rite of Compulsion is doing pretty a sorceric version of what Kellhus does. Anyway, my point is just that Achamian has seen through Kellhus' compulsion. Have you noticed that whenever someone does that (first Cnaiur and then Kellhus) they seem to stop being his pal? I don't think Akka has gone to the Consult at all. He just wants to live on his own terms, and his world (and therefore his terms) just got a whole lot bigger. He's found himself in new ways. I think he's on his way to becoming an independent player in the game. Sorry for these wordy posts. I'm actually shaving them down mentally. view post


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