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posts by White Lord Subdidact | joined 26 Dec 2004 | 212

posted 13 Jan 2005, 12:01 in The Warrior Prophetthe emperor Ikurai Xerius III by White Lord, Subdidact

In my opinion it's much more likely his mother is a skin-spy... view post

posted 13 Jan 2005, 12:01 in Author Q & AArt for TTT? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1xtang6r]*deep breath* News to me Mith. But rest assured, I'll be kicking and screaming for a gif, and I'll post it as soon as I find out. How many times have you done this to me now? :wink: The author is always the last to know. And why not, I only [i:1xtang6r]write[/i:1xtang6r] the damn things...[/quote:1xtang6r] That's really good news... I'll be looking forward to seeing it also! As an aside... I've been trying to download the maps of Earwa from your PoN site and I can't... I've been wondering if I'm the only one or if it's a mistake on the site. I'd much appreciate if it could be fixed, or if you, Mr. Bakker, could post them here or send them to my e-mail. Looking forward to your reply! view post

posted 15 Jan 2005, 20:01 in The Warrior Prophetthe emperor Ikurai Xerius III by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="anor277":5rejrkju]I agree, I think it's much more likely that Xerius' mother Istriya is a skin spy (perhaps replaced just after Skeaös was revealed). The evidence is very circumstantial of course, Istriya opposes Xerius' plan to spare Shimeh (and the Cishaurim) from conquest, which is presumably a Consult aim; however, Istriya would be uniquely vulnerable to replacement by a skin-spy. She takes numerous lovers and also chooses lovers for her son Xerius, any of whom could be a skin spy and could dispose of her and masquerade as her quite easily. All of this raises an interesting question, are the skin-spies hermaphroditic; can they change their genitals as well as their faces? Yuck, the mind boggles.[/quote:5rejrkju] What made me think about her being a skin-spy was the scene where, immediately after Skeaös's death she brings that girl to Xerius, exploiting one of his weaknesses and then asking him what exactly happened to Skeaös in what seemed a very sinister undertone to me.... It is also possible (even probable) that she was removed immediately after Skeaös's death and replaced with a skin-spy for getting to the bottom of his death. view post

A few questions . . . posted 15 Jan 2005, 21:01 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

First of all I’d like to congratulate you, Mr. Bakker, on a great fantasy series, published at a time when I was despairing of finding anything worthy of being read anymore. I just finished consuming TDtCB and TWP in the space of two days and I have to say I’m very impressed with the world you’ve created (very realistic and even ruthless at times, which is a welcome change) and the way the story and the characters have progressed so far. Since finishing to read the books I’m finding myself full of questions so I hope I’m not being too demanding with the (many) ones that follow, and I really hope you will be able to answer at least a few . . . Here goes: 1. I’m interested in the demographics of the Ancient North. Just how do they compare with those of the Three Seas, both now and in the period of its greatest glory (at the time of Cenei?), and what were the borders (and sizes) of the ancient Norsirai nations? For ex. was Agongorea a part of Kuniüri or a preexisting kingdom before it was taken by the Consult? 2. Many times you mention that the Ancient North was old, powerful and very civilized, at a time when the Three Seas, and possibly the Satyothi peoples too, were young and still unsophisticated. I wonder just how that is possible, if we reckon that the Four Nations invaded Eärwa at the same time and probably settled their respective corners of it at the same time as well. The colossal monuments of Shigek, and some other mentions of antiquity in the Three Seas would seem to contradict that, and although the Norsirai may have had the advantage of the Nonman Tutelage, two thousand years constitute a long time, and I think the Ketyai could easily have caught up with them easily. 3. In TWP Achamian speaks of the killing of the No-God and in this context tells Kellhus of the Holy War Celmomas had called to battle the Consult. He says Celmomas “summoned” all the lords of Eärwa, and I read that to be the actual summons of a liege lord to his vassals. So I’d like to know if I’m reading too much into this sentence or if the Anasûrimbor really were in a position to order other kings of the ancient world. (An alternative question: just how powerful and important were the Anasûrimbor, and how old was their line, at the time of the Apocalypse?) 4. Concerning the Cunuroi. In TDtCB, Mekeritrig tells Kellhus that when their heart had been cut out they cradled theirs, being companions to the ‘great’ Norsirai kings. All this was in the context of the degradation of the Cunuroi (their curse) so it made me think . . . After all why would a species be given near-eternal life only to be crippled in a different way than mortality, as the Cunuroi seem to be? I got the impression that this was the consequence of the death of one of their kings or this and the result of something the Inchoroi did to them. Is there any truth to this or were they always cursed to only five human lifetimes’ memories? 5. Checking out the maps I happened to notice a city or citadel, in the Osthwai Mountains between Thunyerus and Galeoth, that has a very Cunuroi-sounding name: Col-Aujas. Is this in fact a Nonman city-state and what may its relations be with the Norsirai of the Three Seas, if any? This is especially interesting since I thought that all remaining Cunuroi were in Injor-Niyas and that the presence of the Nonmen so close to the Three Seas could possibly have meant another source of the Gnosis for the local Schools. 6. The Celmomian Prophecy. When Celmomas describes seeing his son taking the sun as his charger and stirring his people to wonder and fury, is he in fact seeing his own dead son, or is it maybe Kellhus (or the son of Kellhus?), and their actions in the books’ present? In other words, is what Kellhus thinks: that just as what comes before determines what comes after, it could also be that what comes after influences what comes before, in any way possible? Is this prophecy a demonstration of this posit? Here are the questions. I thought it better to lump them all in one post than to bother you with many staggered ones, and I’m thanking you in advance for any answer! :) view post

posted 17 Jan 2005, 19:01 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1n5v63kv]Two days! I'm glad you enjoyed the books, White Lord. I can tell by your questions that you're a classic 'world junkie' - a man after my own heart![/quote:1n5v63kv] Yes, I guess I [i:1n5v63kv]am[/i:1n5v63kv] a world junkie and I have to say once again that I'm really impressed with the depth of this one, which is one of the reasons why I have so many questions... I really hope you'll publish a guide to Eärwa someday; it would make for some interesting complementary reading to the series. BTW, just how many books will there be in each of the follow-up series, 2 or 3? I've been seeing here that it's to be 2... As far as I'm concerned you can write six more books easy, there's no reason to disdain long series if the writing's good and the story interesting, and I have no reason to believe otherwise. :) [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1n5v63kv]1) In terms of population, I see the two as being comparable, though the Three Seas necessarily has some cultural (such as a deeper history) and technological advantages (such as iron). The primary difference between the civilizations (with the exception that one is dead) lay in the maritime and commercial dimensions of the Three Seas.[/quote:1n5v63kv] The issue of iron makes me wonder about the Nonman nimil. Just what exactly [i:1n5v63kv]is[/i:1n5v63kv] nimil, and why didn't the Nonmen share it with their Norsirai allies? The scene between Mekeritrig and Kellhus comes to mind, and the way nimil and steel seem to be more or less equal... Also, something I forgot in my first post..., just how big is Eärwa? I always imagine Eärwa to be the size of Europe in relation to Eänna being the size of Asia, both of them making up something close to the Eurasian landmass size-wise. Is this accurate? What is Eärwa's size compared to a real-world continent? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1n5v63kv]4) You're starting to mow some TTT grass with this one, I'm afraid! Sorry, WL... :wink: [/quote:1n5v63kv] [i:1n5v63kv]Very[/i:1n5v63kv] interesting! :) I guess this non-answer points somewhere in the direction I was going... :) Can't wait for TTT! [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1n5v63kv]5) Cil-Aujas is a dead Nonman city that the Men of the Three Seas know about. Something I have some dev[i]lish plans for. [/quote:1n5v63kv] Also very interesting. Is it to be in TTT or one of the follow-up series? And to close just one more question. About sorcerers. One of the excerpts at the beginning of a chapter argues that since the gods are the architects of the world and had a purpose for everything, then why are sorcerers always called cheaters? And who made the rules of sorcery? What is their place in the grand scheme of things? I happen to believe that they have a purpose although some of the metaphysics they use may be thought offensive to the world. I have some idea that Moënghus is developing some form of sorcery that doesn't damage the creation of the gods, one also that may resist the Aporos, that being the reason the Consult is so eager to annihilate the Cishaurim. About the Aporos. Are Aporetic cants only good for unravelling the cants of other sorceries or can they be used offensively, like those of the Gnosis or Anagogis? Why are sorcerers called Unclean in the Tusk? I believe that they were called that because the migrating nations were in fact fleeing from wars in Eänna that were heavy on sorcery, so anything to do with sorcery would automatically be anathema to them. Am I right in this? Also are there any Norsirai, Ketyai etc. still left in Eänna or was the migration of the Four Nations similar to the barbaric invasions on our own world where literally whole peoples were on the move? Thanks again for your reply above, and hope I'm not pestering you with my questions. :) view post

posted 19 Jan 2005, 22:01 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

Thanks again for the quick answers! Also looking forward to the goodies in the appendices to TTT. I've been wondering about the golden haloes around Kellhus's arms. At first I thought they were merely hallucinations, something he induced in others through some Dunyain technique for the furthering of his mission, instead of [i:1wvwqie5]real[/i:1wvwqie5] manifestations from the Outside or wherever the Gods are. Now though I think of them as perhaps being both: at first hallucinations (Kellhus trying to manipulate the world-born) and then also the first manifestations of his [i:1wvwqie5]true[/i:1wvwqie5] position as a prophet, as the story unfolds. Am I right? Also I don't know if you missed the question earlier or if it's one of those 'read and find out' ones. Anyway I'm interested in knowing whether there are any more Norsirai, Ketyai etc. peoples still living in Eanna, or if the migrations really comprised whole nations. view post

posted 20 Jan 2005, 01:01 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":dgglhln8]I'm not sure I understand the question, WL... :roll:[/quote:dgglhln8] Just a little clarification, please: did you mean to give that rolleyes emoticon a sarcastic or [i:dgglhln8]suggestive[/i:dgglhln8] meaning? Because its accepted meaning is sarcasm -- though I didn't [i:dgglhln8]read[/i:dgglhln8] any in your answer, so I take it to be [i:dgglhln8]suggestive[/i:dgglhln8]. I guess this means I'll get the answers in the books at some point. :) I just wish I came up with [i:dgglhln8]answerable[/i:dgglhln8] questions, as it's kinda painful to be on tenterhooks about one's theories all the time! :) :wink: Also a few questions (and please tell me if I'm bothering you; wouldn't want you to waste time on silly questions as I guess you're busy writing TTT): 1. About the Sranc. In the scene where Kellhus battles the Sranc in the North we get a description of one of the Sranc's face as being beautiful. Now fast forward to where Akka is tortured by the Scarlet Spires, and his flashbacks to Seswatha's torture at the Mantraitor's hands. Again his face is described as inhumanly beautiful. Now since I know that the Sranc were made by the Inchoroi as a weapon against the Cunuroi, I get the impression that this is an example of perverted Inchoroi sense of humor. I think they manipulated Cunuroi genes and basically preserved Cunuroi faces (beautiful) putting them on misshapen (freakish) bodies, as a way to taunt the Cunuroi. If I'm right I wish I had witnessed their first encounter! :) So is there any truth to this or am I just imagining too much? And why do I think I just might not get an answer to [i:dgglhln8]this[/i:dgglhln8] one either? :) 2. Caste-nobility. Towards the end of TWP Kellhus is accused of being a pretender to the warrior caste. Now since he is the rightful Crown Prince of Kuniuri (regardless of the fact that his nation is 2000 years dead) how can he be a pretender? Even if he misrepresented himself as a prince of Atrithau his nobility should be unquestioned: a similar thing to Saubon's status (a lackland prince but still a prince, though of dubious authority). So I guess the gist of this one is: are there any differences in the concept of nobility in the Ancient North and the Three Seas? Did caste-nobility as such exist in the Ancient North or was it a much less rigid and closed system with upward mobility? For that matter can a caste-merchant or -menial move upward to the warrior/nobility caste in the Three Seas? view post

posted 20 Jan 2005, 17:01 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1my59qy3]No, no, I was using it in the 'oops' sense! I truly didn't understand your question. And it's no bother at all, believe me.[/quote:1my59qy3] Good to hear that! Also glad not to be a bother. :) Anyway, maybe I should put the question this way: somewhere in TWP people start seeing disks of golden light around Kellhus's hands (the sign of the prophet; the exact way Inri Sejenus is portrayed in temple mosaics etc.) At first I thought these golden disks weren't real, just the result of Kellhus hypnotizing people to reinforce his position as possible prophet. But at the book's end I thought them really there (unless Kellhus has learned how to hypnotize thousands simultaneously!). So which is it: can we consider Kellhus a [i:1my59qy3]real[/i:1my59qy3] prophet by book's end or is he still playing mind games with the Inrithi? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1my59qy3]1) I think I should save this one for the striptease...[/quote:1my59qy3] Can't wait... :) [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1my59qy3]2) As with all things political, it's the conflux of perception and entrenched interests that matters. Just look at the Inaugural Celebrations in Washington today. Just look at [i:1my59qy3]who[/i:1my59qy3] is celebrating...[/quote:1my59qy3] So I guess it was more a case of them doing what was politically expedient than really believing him not to be a noble... [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1my59qy3]The castes are strictly hereditary in the Three Seas. There would have been somewhat more mobility in the Ancient North, but only because in many ways they retained the 'freeman' tribal structure of their ancestors.[/quote:1my59qy3] That is the way I thought the system worked too. But I guess we'll see some changes, at least, in the Three Seas when Kellhus is Aspect-Emperor... :wink: :) Also reformulating one of my previous questions: you said the Four Nations migrated from Eanna to Earwa, and that a 'Lost Nation' remained behind, on the other side of the Kayarsus. So I assume at least the Xiuhianni are still living in Eanna. But what about other members of the Four Nations, people who didn't want to migrate to Earwa? Do they still live in Eanna, do they have kingdoms there? For that matter are there other races of Man, distinct from the five we know about, living anywhere in the world? Thanks again! :) view post

posted 22 Jan 2005, 17:01 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":qffn9sa7]I actually haven't worked out any details for lands surrounding Earwa, and nor do I have any plans to. One of the things that characterizes the ancient relation to the world is [i:qffn9sa7]ignorance[/i:qffn9sa7], the sense of occupying a small circle of light in a dark and cavernous room. This may just be bias on my part, but I think Erikson and Martin worry the readerly illusion a bit by 'going global' the way they do.[/quote:qffn9sa7] I don't think you are necessarily wrong in not developing any more lands aside from Earwa. I guess it depends much on the story you decided to tell, and not introducing superfluous details of any kind is a plus. Also there's the fact that there is a lot of past history to Earwa, and the land itself is rich enough in so many other ways, that I know readers will be more than satisfied with the books to come and the details you will share with us, even without you 'going global'. Part of my interest in Eanna is simply born of the fact that it exists on the maps and that it's (probably) the birthplace of Man, so I can't [i:qffn9sa7]not[/i:qffn9sa7] have some interest in it. For that matter you not telling anything about it is also a real stimulus for the imagination and the 'there be dragons' outlook on the world, that characterized imperfect knowledge of world geography in centuries past. Now on to some questions: 1. Are there [i:qffn9sa7]any[/i:qffn9sa7] female Dunyain? I mean girls or women who undergo the Conditioning process alongside the men? 2. Is the Dunyain conditioning process something that has to start at a young age, or can grown men (and women) be trained (at least to some extent)? 3. Can women work sorcery of the kind the schools (both Gnostic and Anagogic) practice? 4. Can you tell us anything on the city of Tryse? Something of its history, how big was it compared to the big cities of the Three Seas today etc. Thanks a lot! :) view post

posted 23 Jan 2005, 00:01 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3m4kdk4e]The only question out of these that doesn't find itself pinned to a important part of the future story has to do with women and sorcery (and even then!). Yes, as many women are born to the 'Few' as men, but due to oppression, they have no formal tradition as such: they're typically burned as witches. Neither the Schools nor the mundane powers tolerate sorcery outside the aegis of the Schools, so wizards suffer much the same fate. I think I should cut it short there, since it becomes quite significant in AE.[/quote:3m4kdk4e] I suspected I wouldn't get many answers to these questions... Anyway you confirmed my hypothesis on sorcery and women... so thanks! :) BTW, reading another post on sorcery I see you characterized the power or strength of the Few as involving intellect and experience. So how would you rate Achamian's sorcerous prowess, both compared to other Mandati, as well as Anagogic sorcerers? I think there's more to him than one would think given his apparent weakness of character, and since he seems fated to be Kellhus's teacher it's something I'd like to have an idea of... view post

posted 23 Jan 2005, 23:01 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

One more thing that interests me: does Seswatha's Heart induce the Dreams only in sorcerers or can it affect [i:1eu6qozd]anyone[/i:1eu6qozd] who touches it? Thanks! :) view post

posted 24 Jan 2005, 20:01 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":22iykn0q]Another one verging on TTT... :wink: It's safe to assume that there some very ritualized, very long, Cants involved.[/quote:22iykn0q] OK :) I sure wish TTT were already published... Some questions: 1. Leafing through the appendices in TDtCB I noticed in the Languages of Men section a mention to a language of the Meorn Empire. Is this a Norsirai empire from the early days of the Ancient North? Strangely enough, it never occurred to me that in 2000 years many nations could have risen and fallen in the Ancient North before the ones we see on the maps were even born... something similar to the situation in the Three Seas. 2. Can you tell us anything more about the Anasurimbor line, if possible, aside from what we know from the books, something that isn't going to spoil the future storylines? 3. Will the character Aengelas from the end of TWP appear in future books, and what did the Inchoroi mean when he said he could sense the 'old fire' in him? Thanks a lot! :) view post

posted 25 Jan 2005, 03:01 in Author Q & AThis time I got a question... by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Annabel":1ezgkd4v]Maybe our favorite author should write The Thousandfold Thought in rhymes. Maybe Cnaiur could start up with a little gangsta rap at the start of every meeting of the great names.[/quote:1ezgkd4v] :lol: That's a good one! And I think you're not so very wrong either... view post

posted 25 Jan 2005, 03:01 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":918larjm][i:918larjm]Aengelas[/i:918larjm] I love that name. I hope we'll be seeing more of him.[/quote:918larjm] Agreed, a really cool name. I like all the names in the books... Don't see exactly what the deal is with the people who think them too hard to pronounce or whatever... I guess they're too used to the cliched or monosyllabic ones that glut most Fantasy works. Throw in a few strange accents and you make them go into meltdown... :) view post

posted 25 Jan 2005, 23:01 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":h25b6cn4]1) Yes. Actually most of the Norsirai from the so-called 'Middle-North' are descendents of Meornish refugees, who would eventually be responisible for the destruction of the Nonman Mansion of Cil-Aujas. I actually have a history worked out for the Ancient North, every bit as layered as that for the Three Seas.[/quote:h25b6cn4] Interesting... Hope we'll read more of the early history of the Ancient North in future books. [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":h25b6cn4]2) I going to keep mum on the Anasurimbor for now. I actually have an outline for a stand alone dealing with the First Apocalypse.[/quote:h25b6cn4] OK. Could you just say whether their nobility/royalty dates back to the nation of Kuniuri or if their line stretches back to earlier times? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":h25b6cn4]3) The 'old fire' would be the blood of his ancestors. As for Aengelas - well things don't look all that good for him at the end of TWP![/quote:h25b6cn4] Well I know he was in a [i:h25b6cn4]bit[/i:h25b6cn4] of trouble :) but I have the feeling he's managed to survive... view post

Re: But... posted 25 Jan 2005, 23:01 in The Warrior Prophetthe emperor Ikurai Xerius III by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Erthaelion":1wkw4ksk]Hasn't been a female skin-spy revealed yet. Hard to imagine the "things" being anything other then male, but upon re-reading that scene, it does seem like something strange was going on. And the skin-spies did discover, very suddenly, that Kellhus could see them. Just out of the blue, at a council of the Great names, bang- Sarcellus is staring down Kellhus. hmm....[/quote:1wkw4ksk] Well the reason there aren't (many/any) female skin-spies is than few women have any power or influence in the Three Seas. But I'd think the "technical" side of making them would be pretty simple... after all if you can make a male skin-spy, why shouldn't you be able to engineer a female one? And now that Skeaos is dead Ikurei Istriya is the only person who will have some influence on Xerius, and I think this (and Xerius's actions in Book 3) will be significant. view post

posted 28 Jan 2005, 01:01 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2rb1u9ro]If I remember correctly, House Anasurimbor rises to prominence around five centuries before the First Apocalypse - but I'd have to go digging into the 'pile' to be sure.[/quote:2rb1u9ro] Thanks for this tidbit! A question: in one of your answers you mention Quya and Siqu masters. We know who the Quya are, so what are the Siqu? Thanks again! :) view post

posted 01 Feb 2005, 06:02 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":352m9453]The Siqu are the Nonmen advisors to the ancient Norsirai Kings during the Nonman Tutelage... You sent me digging for this one. I thought I would post this little teaser of what to expect in the apendices to TTT: 820 - The Rape of Omindalea. Jiricet, a Nonman Siqû to the God-King Nincarû-Telesser II (787-828), rapes Omindalea (808-825), first daughter of Sanna-Neorjë (772-858) of the house of Anasûrimbor in 824, and then flees to Ishterebinth. When Nil’giccas refuses to return Jiricet to Ûmerau, Nicarû-Telesser II expels all Nonmen from the Ûmeri Empire. Omindalea conceives by the union and dies bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825- 1032), called ‘Twoheart.’ After a house-slave conceives by him, Sanna-Jephera is adopted by Sanna-Neorjë as his heir. - The cuneiform script and the syllabaries of the Nonmen are outlawed and replaced with a consonantal alphabet, c.835.[/quote:352m9453] Wow, that was a real tasty morsel... :) I tend to repeat myself, but I sure wish TTT were already out... Also a confirmation that the Anasûrimbor are a [i:352m9453]very[/i:352m9453] old house. Are there any of comparable age in the Three Seas? I see that the Anasûrimbor have Nonman blood. How significant is this, did it account for their success as a House? Does it give them some special advantages over ordinary human blood? What was Sanna-Jephera's lifespan? Did he die of natural causes and if not how long would he have lived? Also, can you tell us something more on the Ûmeri Empire? Thanks a lot! :) view post

posted 01 Feb 2005, 10:02 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2afosg87]To answer those you'll just have me cutting and pasting from the appendices, WL. Patience, my friend. Patience. :wink:[/quote:2afosg87] That's cruel... :) Can you at least tell me whether this Rape was [i:2afosg87]really[/i:2afosg87] a rape or the opposite of it? view post

posted 07 Feb 2005, 22:02 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1kgq7ehx]There's something to be said about historical indeterminacy, WL. I want Earwa to be as realistic as possible, which means I have to inject all the same indeterminacies that plague our world.[/quote:1kgq7ehx] OK, I get you... :) Anyway, I'd like to know if Jiricet is still alive (since it seems Mekeritrig is still in fine shape after 2500+ years), and if he was/is related in any way to Nil'giccas. Thanks! view post

posted 07 Feb 2005, 22:02 in The Warrior Prophetthe emperor Ikurai Xerius III by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Erthaelion":adafy7fj]I speak neither of physiognomy nor the possible complexity of engineering. The way the skin spy operates, from what we read of Sarcellus, is on the promise of release. Its simply alot harder to imagine a sexual misfit as a female, on that vivid a level. Not imposssible, but harder to visualize it being the same sickening creature, bent on release, coupling with corpses etc.[/quote:adafy7fj] Yes, but then again these things are [i:adafy7fj]not[/i:adafy7fj] human (or even natural), so it doesn't matter at all what they [i:adafy7fj]look[/i:adafy7fj] like, or what their sex is. You simply cannot attribute any human traits to them. They could look like five-year-olds of either sex and still have these inhuman hungers and urges. view post

posted 07 Feb 2005, 22:02 in The Warrior Prophetthe emperor Ikurai Xerius III by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="anor277":r4q2jh9n]Regarding the observation that we've seen no "female" skin-spies, wasn't there a scene when it was implied that one of Esmenet's fellow prostitutes was a closet skin-spy?[/quote:r4q2jh9n] From what I remember of that scene there wasn't any description of the skin-spy but it was stated that it [i:r4q2jh9n]was[/i:r4q2jh9n] impersonating a female prostitute. This makes me think of the confrontation between Sarcellus and Cnaiur in TWP where Sarcellus tells Cnaiur that his flesh had been folded more times than a steel blade. We also know that the skin-spies are extremely flexible, and have no bones. This makes me think that they are not only able to shift faces but body shape as well. view post

posted 08 Feb 2005, 14:02 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":ys78gd0h]I have no clue. You struck world-building bottom with that one! Who knows, though, he might find a place as things develop. :wink:[/quote:ys78gd0h] OK. I really hope we can see more of him... :) Now on to some questions: 1. I'd like to know how many people you would guess live in the Three Seas right now, and how many in Zeum. 2. Unions between Men and Nonmen. Were they rare/unheard of before and after the Tutelage? Just what did they think about it? From what you posted on Jiricet and Omindalea I'd guess that was the first time it ever happened. So did the Nonmen still look down on Men even after so many years of contact? 3. What is the Nonmen's religion? Did it in any way influence the Kunniat faith of the Ancient North? 4. The skin-spies. Are there any female skin-spies? Can they reproduce or are they "grown" artificially. Also can they shift body shape as well as face? Thanks a lot! :) view post

posted 08 Feb 2005, 14:02 in The Warrior Prophetthe emperor Ikurai Xerius III by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="anor277":1austdb7]Maybe we’ll have to wait for Achamian, or Kellhus, or someone with a few brains and a scalpel to perform a proper autopsy on a dead skin spy – so far all the emperor's gofers or those of the Scarlet Spires have done is to cut off their heads. Then again, maybe they didn’t find anything remarkable about their bodies.[/quote:1austdb7] I'm sure there'll be at least some more info on the skin-spies in TTT. I'm not sure all of them have been eliminated from the Holy War by the end of TWP, so much could still happen in Book 3. I put a question about them to Scott so let's hope he can give us at least a partial answer... view post

posted 08 Feb 2005, 15:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="anor277":eqxakq9y]Regarding the prophecy, it is true that there are 2 Anasurimbors in the three seas; in a few months there will be a third, Esmenet's child; for all we know he is the Anasurimbor referred to in the prophecy if indeed the prophecy is valid. Esmenet's child will necessarily be "world born", but with Kellhus and Esmenet (and Achamian?) as his teachers, he might surpass both father and grandfather (and why do I assume that Esmenet's child will be a he?)[/quote:eqxakq9y] I've thought about the Celmomian Prophecy a lot and I've come to a few conclusions. First of all, I think we can consider Kellhus to [i:eqxakq9y]really[/i:eqxakq9y] be the Harbinger. In order for him to be the Harbinger he has to be [i:eqxakq9y]known[/i:eqxakq9y] as an Anasurimbor, and since Moenghus has done his best not to be identified as one, it's safe to assume the role of Harbinger is Kellhus's. After all he [i:eqxakq9y]did[/i:eqxakq9y] warn the people who count (more or less) about what's about to happen, and with time to spare... Now we come to the second consideration. Kellhus's son (I also think it'll be a son, and his name will be Celmomas :)). Somewhere in TWP Kellhus thinks about the Consult, the Apocalypse and mortality. He concludes that the only way to beat time and death is through sons. So I think the person Celmomas talks about in the prophecy could be (in part) Kellhus's son. If we reckon the Apocalypse will start some twenty years after the conclusion of PoN, and that it will last long enough for Kellhus to grow old or die :), (unless he becomes an immortal god in the meantime ;)) the only person who can reasonably live to gain victory over the Consult is Kellhus's son. Just a few thoughts... looking forward to comments! view post

posted 14 Feb 2005, 02:02 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3b17idk1]All told, I would say the population of the Three Seas would hover around 75 million - just somewhat larger than that of the Roman Empire circa 300CE. Since Zeum has a big role to play in the future books, I'll take a pass on answering that one :wink: [/quote:3b17idk1] That's a lot more people than I expected . . . Lots of manpower to draw from for any future bloodshed :) :wink: It also seems Zeum is to remain a mystery for some time . . . However I'd like to know where you would put this civilization in relation to the Three Seas and the Ancient North. From the appendices it seems it has always been somewhat monolithic (from Angka to old Zeum to modern Zeum), without the myriad nations that characterized the Ancient North and the Three Seas. The assumption is that culture or "advanced" civilization in Earwa started with the Norsirai in the North with the help of the Cunuroi, and then the other races, with the exception of the Scylvendi, were influenced by it. This we know is the case with the Three Seas. But what of Zeum? Were they influenced by the North or did/do they have an autochthonous advanced civilization? Did they have extensive contact with the North before the Apocalypse? Did they fight in it and did they retain a lot more of that civilization than the Ketyai? It's just an impression of mine but I think Zeum is actually a bit ahead of the Three Seas, in some areas at least . . . Am I running ahead of myself or is there something to this hunch? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3b17idk1]Unions between the races were rare, as you might imagine, but some interbreeding was inevitable. The first recorded mention of it is in the [i:3b17idk1]Isuphiryas[/i:3b17idk1], which relates the tale of Sirwitta, an Emwama slave, who seduces an u[n]named Cunuroi noblewom[a]n, who later conceives a daughter, Cimoira. This is going waaay back, though, before the Womb-Plague.[/quote:3b17idk1] A nice bit of information. So what was this Womb-Plague, and were/are Cunuroi women sterile as a consequence? Any little Nonmen around? I'm also interested in the Emwama's appearance. Which of the present races did they resemble more? Or were they totally unrelated? As an aside, on the matter of race, can you say whether in far antiquity, before the move to Earwa the Norsirai and Scylvendi were perhaps one people? It's just struck me that these are both light-skinned peoples (with other shared characteristics) so a common origin is not really to be excluded . . . [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3b17idk1]As for the skin-spies, strictly Verboten![/quote:3b17idk1] Well I didn't think I'd get much of an answer to this one . . . :) Will we learn more about the skin-spies in TTT, specifically about what was in my question? Thanks a lot! :) view post

posted 18 Feb 2005, 22:02 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":5gizymes]Like I say, I want Zeum to be a mystery, to be a 'pregnant unknown' similar to 'Cathay' for the Persians or the Romans. As for the population, don't forget that this number includes Nilnamesh, which is very densely populated.[/quote:5gizymes] I see . . . :cry: ;) Actually one of my next questions would have concerned Nilnamesh. From a few things you mentioned in TWP I had concluded this was a [i:5gizymes]Satyothi[/i:5gizymes] and not a Ketyai nation. So I guess I'd like to know if Nilnamesh was ever a part of the Ceneian Empire or, alternately, connected in any way to Zeum. My idea of Cenei is as the equivalent of Rome for the Three Seas: an empire ruling all the lands of the region. If this is so then I'd guess the Nilnameshi could have been under Ceneian rule. Can you confirm this? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":5gizymes]The story of the Womb-Plague will actually be in the appendices to TTT. Suffice to say it was a consequence of the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.[/quote:5gizymes] Well as soon as I read about it I was reminded of the "every womb a grave . . . for eleven years" bit from Achamian's tale of the Old Wars. The involvement of the Inchoroi in this Womb-Plague seemed inevitable. I guess if it's a permanent thing many things can be explained, even the rape of Omindalea. After all, I'd guess it must be pretty frustrating not to be able to perpetuate one's line :lol: Guess I'll get the answer in the appendices . . . [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":5gizymes]I'm actually finding it difficult trying to decide what information can be 'safely' released, and what to jealously hold onto. I want the whole cycle of books to be a long, gradual revelation of the world of Earwa, and even though I feel I've come so far with finishing PoN (well, almost finishing!), there just seems to be so much more story![/quote:5gizymes] It seems I'll have to improve my technique in trying to wheedle out information from you :) I have my pet theories and I guess it's no surprise to you how even many seemingly insignificant details can be useful in confirming them . . . [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":5gizymes]Also there's the fact that I quite often rework things in the course of incorporating details into the narrative proper. Just so you know, WL, much of what I say isn't final until it actually finds itself in print. Evil, I know... :twisted:[/quote:5gizymes] :cry: ;) Just one closing question: Do trees have any special significance for the Nonmen? I remember a few scenes from the books that have descriptions of 'great' trees (in the case of the dead Nonman city in the North a [i:5gizymes]dead[/i:5gizymes] oak tree), in contexts that are linked to the Cunuroi. Not to mention the great tree in Kellhus's vision whilst hanging from [i:5gizymes]yet another[/i:5gizymes] great tree :) Now from reading fantasy in general and some folk tales I know certain races are said to live as long as their trees live, i.e. many thousands of years. Am I on to something or . . . ? Thanks! :) view post

posted 18 Feb 2005, 23:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Andrew":ddzbcirm]I don't agree with the point about Kellus' son being of great importance with respect to the prophecy or the victory over the consult - kellus is only 40 something. I'm sure that genetically he is a superior individual so he can reasonably remain vigorous and powerful well into his 60's or 70's - recall that the Pragma's who trained Kellus were old. I think you'd need someone at the height of their powers to take on the No-God/Consult/whoever else - not some 20 yr old pup who lacked the benefit of a Dunyain upbringing. In 20 years Kellus will have mastered the Gnosis plus who knows what other magic and he'll have an empire to lead into war and he'll have his regular dunyain skills. What will his son have?[/quote:ddzbcirm] Well, that's as may be . . . I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not really sure if Kellhus's son (or daughter) will be instrumental in winning over the Consult. Still, you'll grant it [i:ddzbcirm]is[/i:ddzbcirm] significant that both Cnaiur and Kellhus have or are about to have offspring. I see Kellhus and Cnaiur as [i:ddzbcirm]the[/i:ddzbcirm] main characters, at least in regard to fighting the Consult. I think we can go along with Proyas in thinking that Cnaiur may be as important a figure as Kellhus himself. So them having sons is to me an important detail for the future storyline. As far as training goes, I put a question about Dunyain training (and if it could be done outside of Ishual and among grown-up world-born men) to Scott and while he didn't answer he said it was important for the future storyline. Also bear in mind that both Moenghus and Kellhus are already training their followers in the way of the Logos. Since I expect Kellhus's son to have all the innate genetic advantages of his father, and also Dunyain training, he could well be a thorn in the side of the Consult. I'd also remind you of the real-world example of Alexander the Great, or in Earwa of Ikurei Conphas who has won many important battles in his early twenties (I judge him to be in his late twenties when he wins at Kiyuth). All that said I think we can easily assume that Kellhus's son will be an important player in the tale of the Second Apocalypse. view post

posted 18 Feb 2005, 23:02 in The Warrior Prophetthe emperor Ikurai Xerius III by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Erthaelion'":38yzp796]I don't think Scott is gonna have anything to do with that question.[/quote:38yzp796] You're right, he didn't . . . :) I guess we can infer that they have a big role to play in TTT, and possibly the following series. view post

posted 19 Feb 2005, 00:02 in The Warrior Prophetthe emperor Ikurai Xerius III by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="RevCasy":1mxoagj4]I don't see why Kellhus wouldn't "rat out" all the skin spies. He and the Consult are pretty much at war now, and revealing the skin spies also strengthens his position in the Holy War. And though I admit I am not Dunyain, [i:1mxoagj4]I[/i:1mxoagj4] can't think of a reason to leave any skin spies alive.[/quote:1mxoagj4] Yes, but then again, how many tens of thousands are there in the Holy War? Kellhus is not (yet) omnipotent and I'd guess that even for him it would be a bit of a trial to sift the skin-spies out of so many people. I guess the answer lies in training his followers in being able to recognise the skin-spies. I'm not saying he doesn't want to get rid of them, just that it will take a lot of effort and in the meantime they will probably be able to do much damage. view post

posted 19 Feb 2005, 00:02 in Literature DiscussionStephen Erikson's Books by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Faelcind Il Danach":1e2p38xd]I can't imagine trying to slog through Steven Ericksons prose more then once, my head hurts just thinking about. Like many others I bounced hard off of GOTM. People have told me to give it a second chance but there really wasn't a single thing I like about GOTM, and nothing I have heard of the following books convinces me they are much better. The charecters seemed like D&D charictures, ever one more powerfull then the last, the charecters actions were almost completely random and the prose, Ouch.[/quote:1e2p38xd] I agree completely. I've tried to read most of his books, and I've not been able to finish [i:1e2p38xd]one[/i:1e2p38xd], and that is [i:1e2p38xd]very[/i:1e2p38xd] unusual for me, since I can read most anything and I generally dislike leaving books half-finished. I simply don't see what the big deal about Erikson is all about. His work is just not something I care to read. Then again, to each their own . . . :) view post

posted 22 Feb 2005, 00:02 in Literature DiscussionStephen Erikson's Books by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":egevt5di]WL, Off-topic a bit, but what *are* your favorites? I noticed you're very big on worldbuilding, as am I, so maybe I can pick up a recommendation or two.[/quote:egevt5di] Well I think RevCasy has expressed in his post more or less what I think also. To tell you the truth, even for those books/series which were well-written/fun to read I couldn't give you a recommendation for simple world-building. I think the only fantasy books/world that I could really appreciate for its world-building is Tolkien's Middle-earth. And even then I'm not really enamoured of his [i:egevt5di]story[/i:egevt5di]. I just think it's a really well-made world, and even the story itself draws something from it that you can't really find elsewhere. I like reading fantasy in the G.R.R. Martin mould, and while I love his story I think his world is much less detailed and thought out than it should. For ex. his eastern continents feel just as an afterthought to anchor the Daenerys storyline, which is fast coming to bore me :) . . . Jordan also gets a lot of praise for his world-building but again I don't see exactly why . . . Hell, the world as revealed in the first book of [i:egevt5di]Prince of Nothing[/i:egevt5di] was already more detailed and more gripping than the [i:egevt5di]Wheel of Time[/i:egevt5di] after [i:egevt5di]ten[/i:egevt5di] books. What you get in the WoT is repetition of the [i:egevt5di]same[/i:egevt5di] "world-building" details ad nauseam and some really annoying braid-tugging and sniffing . . . :) Now we come to Scott Bakker's PoN books, and I have to tell you that for the first time since reading LotR I can really appreciate a fantasy world for [i:egevt5di]itself[/i:egevt5di] without paying much attention to the story, and even the story gets more and more interesting against such a well-made backdrop. Really can you guess why I'm constantly plaguing Scott for more details? :) And I can tell you that reading the books was a really great experience for me. I have read them only once and I have absorbed nearly everything, from names, history, geography, storyline, that I don't think I'll need a re-read when Book Three comes out. [i:egevt5di]That[/i:egevt5di] should be sufficient reason to tell you how much PoN has impressed me. Now, though, I have to ask [i:egevt5di]you[/i:egevt5di] the same question you put to me, because I'm frankly interested in the worlds you think good, since as you see, they may have escaped me . . . :) Cheers, WL. view post

posted 22 Feb 2005, 00:02 in Literature DiscussionStephen Erikson's Books by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="RevCasy":12lnby7a]This is off topic, but I've seen questions like this many many times on other forums. And I understand the desire to find something good to read, because good fantasy is rare. The sad thing is that I have stopped asking the question myself, because I came to realization that [i:12lnby7a]the well is dry[/i:12lnby7a]. After 25 years, I've read all the really good fantasy that has ever been written (and a lot of the less good stuff too). Now my only choice is to read in other genres that I haven't exhausted and wait for new books to be published. *sigh* It makes me sad to think this way.[/quote:12lnby7a] Very, very true . . . (unfortunately). I'm also not reading much fantasy anymore, simply because 99% of it is pure and simple trash, and I'm afraid I could lose the love for the genre if I keep up picking books I end up loathing. I picked up [i:12lnby7a]Darkness that Comes Before[/i:12lnby7a] as an afterthought, not really expecting much, and I can't stop thanking whatever deity put it on my path . . . :) Really great books, and much to look forward to in the years to come, but don't expect much from other new or old authors . . . Frankly I'm grateful Scott Bakker is here and writing, and maybe Martin if he gets his act together, since I suspect he has lost his inspiration and is [i:12lnby7a]incapable[/i:12lnby7a] of finishing Book Four. view post

posted 22 Feb 2005, 00:02 in The Warrior Prophetthe emperor Ikurai Xerius III by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="RevCasy":xw73rxzf]As I said, I'm not Dunyain, but apparently 'H' is. :) Those are both excellent points H, and ones which I hadn't thought of. On the other hand, the Consult now know for certain that Kellhus can detect skin spies. Even if he leaves some alive in the ranks of the Holy War, might the Consult not be suspicious of his motives for doing so? In fact, wouldn't they look for a new, undetectable, way of infiltrating and spying regardless?[/quote:xw73rxzf] You seem to be following my train of thought pretty well . . . :) I really don't expect that Kellhus thinks he can find more about the Consult from the skin-spies, just as I don't think the skin-spies will stop trying to eliminate him. After all, Kellhus has single-handedly wrecked whatever hope the Consult had of smashing the Cishaurim, and they have already marked him for some really painful demise. The only reason why they won't be quickly eliminated from the Holy War I have already posted upthread, however I suspect that at the very least the Thanes Kellhus has been training will be able to pick up the skin-spies so we might see some captures and interrogations. Kellhus has been observing and mapping their behaviour and I have no doubt he could push the right buttons to make them talk if he can capture them alive. This is also one of the ways the Great Names can be convinced of the threat the Consult represents . . . view post

posted 22 Feb 2005, 01:02 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1obuk8yi]Nilnamesh is Ketyai with a Satyothi admixture, and though it was incorporated into the Ceneian Empire (the famous fortress of Auvangshei, which for denizens of the Three Seas is synonymous with the ends of the world, is actually a Ceneian fortress), it's grip was shortlived and dubious.[/quote:1obuk8yi] Thanks for the info. Can you tell us in what book will we be seeing something of Nilnamesh, if not of Zeum? I kind of hope it'll be in TTT . . . :) [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1obuk8yi]Otherwise, and I cannot emphasize this enough, trees [i:1obuk8yi][b:1obuk8yi][u:1obuk8yi]DO NOT[/i:1obuk8yi][/b:1obuk8yi][/u:1obuk8yi] have any particular significance to the Nonmen - as I think will become apparent in TTT. The motif you're picking up on plays a far different roll... :wink:[/quote:1obuk8yi] Well I wasn't 100% sure of linking them to the Nonmen (lots of other explanations) but I [i:1obuk8yi]did[/i:1obuk8yi] think they were important. It surely brings Yggdrasil of Norse mythology to mind. :) I'm very glad we'll be finding out in TTT and not the upcoming series. Seriously, the wait would kill me . . . :) Can you tell us what numbers did the Nonmen have population-wise before their decline, or at their zenith? Usually when one thinks of long-lived races, one can't not associate them to Tolkien's elves which have really few children and far between. Now that does not necessarily have to be true, and I expect that in Earwa the Nonmen should have had great numbers, perhaps even more than the number of humans. Can you give us any details? Thanks a lot! :) view post

posted 01 Mar 2005, 15:03 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1t9owyoa]As for the numbers of Nonmen, it's not something I've really thought about... hmm. Definitely less than the human population, though they did exercise absolute authority over all of Earwa. The history of the Nonmen definitely something I intend on putting some work into as the series progresses.[/quote:1t9owyoa] I thought you had the history of the Cunuroi as well developed as that of the later human civilizations . . . I also think your answers in Annabel's thread on the Scylvendi and life after death very interesting (and significant :) ). I've been thinking about it for some time, especially on the issue of the Outside, and its inhabitants, and the tidbits you shared with us are very welcome. :) [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1t9owyoa][. . .] Given this overarching indeterminacy, there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies. Certain acts attract the interest of certain agencies. One can, and most Inrithi do, plead to redeemed ancestors to intercede on their behalf, but most give themselves over to some God. Doing so, however, puts their souls entirely into play, and the more sketchy one's life is, the more liable one is to be 'poached' by the demonic, and to live out eternity in everlasting torment.[/quote:1t9owyoa] I'd like to know what, exactly, these "agencies" you mention are . . . It's clear that they refer both to "good" and "evil" creatures and I expect they must include the god/s of Men and also assorted demons, but what are they exactly, supernatural beings (real divinities who had a hand in the shaping of the world of Earwa) or simply various races of creatures who happen to live in another dimension and who can, on occasion, access the physical world (the case of the demon conjured by Iyokus)? Also the matter of souls. Is reincarnation viable for the inhabitants of Earwa? Do souls simply vanish if not 'redeemed' or is there some "repository" from which they can later be reborn into the world? And what of these 'redeemed' ancestors/souls? If they live in the Outside, can they cross the barrier and come back into the world as themselves or through some vessel? (This is particularly interesting because it could bear on Seswatha's Heart). Actually what is the status of Seswatha? In some scenes, especially in TWP during Achamian's torture, it seems Seswatha is actually taking a hand, controlling Achamian, showing himself to be more than a set of memories. I think he could be still alive somewhere in the Outside and using the Heart as a sort of link which enables him to influence events in the world. Anything in this idea of mine? Also a question on sorcery. What is it that determines who is a member of the Few, is it genetic or linked to the soul in some way? This is interesting because from what you said of the Quya they are a caste, so one would expect that anyone born into this caste could work sorcery, so it implies a genetic basis, but still . . . Also are the Siqu a branch of the Quya or an unrelated caste? Thanks! Oh, BTW, how is TTT coming along? :) view post

posted 15 Mar 2005, 22:03 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

Pretty disappointing about this new delay, still not much we can do . . . :( And honestly I'd better [i:3qpcaqdw]not[/i:3qpcaqdw] think about it at [i:3qpcaqdw]all[/i:3qpcaqdw] or I'm bound to go insane. :) I'll be expecting a kick-ass conclusion to the trilogy, however, Scott!! ;) Also as an aside, since TTT [i:3qpcaqdw]is[/i:3qpcaqdw] being delayed, it [i:3qpcaqdw]would[/i:3qpcaqdw] be real good to see some stuff from the book on your site ASAP: some new maps (if I remember correctly you said there would be some new maps), pieces from the appendices or a chapter (or parts of chapters). Also a question (only one this time :), I think I'm running out of questions I think you'd even [i:3qpcaqdw]remotely[/i:3qpcaqdw] contemplate answering!): Did the ancient Norsirai fight wars against the Ketyai and Satyothi or were they too powerful and/or self-absorbed to be a threat to anyone or be threatened by anyone? Thanks! view post

posted 15 Mar 2005, 23:03 in Interviews and ReviewsR.A. Salvatore mentions Scott in passing by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="amadah":2gcfbejb]I will admit to having read several of Salvatore's books, though it shames me to do so. I have read both of Bakker's books. Salvatore's creations don't hold a candle to Bakker's and they are, in fact, "somewhere between 'porn mag' and 'harlequin romance'" as far as I'm concerned. Honestly, does Drizz't Do'Urden compare with any of Bakker's characters? Pretty poorly.[/quote:2gcfbejb] In complete agreement with you. In fact I only read his books (or [i:2gcfbejb]any[/i:2gcfbejb] book of that sort) to have a good laugh or two . . . :) view post

posted 16 Mar 2005, 06:03 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Twayleph":e5s2z6pq]Speaking of the Cishaurim : I wonder, has anyone made a theory on [i:e5s2z6pq]why[/i:e5s2z6pq] the Consult wants to destroy the Cishaurim so badly ? Considering that, before Khellus, they weren't aware the Anasûrimbor lineage had survived, they couldn't possibly have known all about Moënghus ; at most, they knew him under wathever identity he's assumed in Earwa. Do you think their manipulation of the Holy War is all about killing Moënghus, or the fact that the Consult can't see them as the Few - or maybe a deeper effect of Psukhe ?[/quote:e5s2z6pq] I think the enmity may have started when the Cishaurim began eliminating the skin-spies. We know Kellhus has been able to identify them from the start, so we can assume that Moenghus could do the same. Having the skin-spies taken out, one by one, would be a severe blow to the Consult, especially if the trend spread throughout the Three Seas. We know Moenghus has trained his followers in the way of the Dunyain so they could unearth the skin-spies too. However, this could be only part of the answer. From the dialogue between the synthese and the skin-spy it seems the Consult have great respect for Cishaurim sorcery. I'm positive the Psukhe is going to develop into the strongest form of sorcery (maybe with Moenghus's and Kellhus's help). What we know so far is that it is founded on a new metaphysics (a few hundred years old at most) and the lack of the onta makes it very significant, since it would presuppose some form of 'divine' sanction, if the Mark is absent. Also consider that it is already almost as formidable as the Anagogis which has been around for thousands of years. With minds such as Moenghus and Kellhus working on refining it it could become a very powerful weapon. The Consult uses Gnostic sorcery. As long as all they had to fear was the Anagogis or the Gnosis of the few Mandate sorcerers all was fine. But the Psukhe is invisible to them, with who knows what advantages over the other metaphysics, and the Cishaurim are probably as big a school as the Scarlet Spires, and a powerful threat. Also if the Cishaurim, through Moenghus, have certain knowledge of whom they are fighting, and if they have initiated skirmishes against the Consult, with positive results, this could have caused the Consult to use the kind of hammer the Holy War represents. One of the small hints that the Cishaurim may have taken up the Mandate's fight is the thought Achamian has of some Cishaurim attacking him while he was in Shimeh. What if they were not attacking him but trying to communicate with him or take him to Moenghus? Could also explain the interest Maithanet has in Achamian, if he's in any way connected with Moenghus's plans. Also as an aside on Achamian, I've been steadily coming to believe he could be either the reincarnation of Seswatha or some sort of disciple, one who could carry on his work (or if my theory on Seswatha being still alive in the Outside is correct, as his Chosen). If his role is to be more than Kellhus's teacher, then the Cishaurim contacting him, and Maithanet showing interest in him would not be so strange. view post

posted 25 Mar 2005, 07:03 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3q9bm0vt]As Grandpa Plato would say, Only the dead have seen the end of war.[/quote:3q9bm0vt] :) [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3q9bm0vt]Regarding the website, I actually hope to discuss this with Jack in the near future. I can't see much in the way of new content for awhile yet though. I actually have the completed draft of [i:3q9bm0vt]Neuropath[/i:3q9bm0vt] to rewrite after TTT is wrapped up.[/quote:3q9bm0vt] I think you should seriously consider releasing small tidbits at regular intervals, [i:3q9bm0vt]especially[/i:3q9bm0vt] before the book's release. I know of some authors who go as far as releasing half the book in weekly snippets on the publisher's board to give the readers the time to gauge whether they think it worthwhile to buy the thing (and the thing is, it works, seems their sales have improved). Now, I'm not suggesting you go to those lengths (I [i:3q9bm0vt]wish[/i:3q9bm0vt] :)) but it's something you should consider: posting small parts of chapters that give people things to discuss while they wait for publication without giving up too much information or compromizing the plot. It would help to keep existing readers' interest fixed and attract new ones. If updating the site is too bothersome for you or whoever does it for you, you could consider doing it here on the board. I think attracting new members to this board, convincing them to register and start discussing the books is also a pretty important move. This board is dead most of the time (or at least parts of it are) and some more activity here would help to draw people's attention, and if you use it to release book-related material I'm convinced it would do so. But enough of this! :) Let me know what you think though . . . On to some questions (hopefully I'll get at least [i:3q9bm0vt]something[/i:3q9bm0vt] out of them :)) 1. You mention that Thoti-Eannorean is the ground tongue of all Men. Could you clarify this a bit, because I find it hard to believe that so many races of Men, possibly living at great distances from one another, would develop and use a single common language. The only explanation is that it is not the original tongue of them all but the earliest [i:3q9bm0vt]known[/i:3q9bm0vt] tongue they all spoke, possibly through close contact or, alternately, a bondage tongue that was imposed on them (or that Men, like the Inchoroi, fell from the sky already speaking a common language which was the platform from which all the others developed ;)). Can you elaborate on this a bit? 2. I'd like to know how far back through history you intend to go. Specifically will we ever know what made the nations migrate from Eanna to Earwa. Since I have a strong belief the events surrounding the genesis of the Tusk will be important to the future plotlines I'd like to know if you'll expand on this period some. 3. In one of his Dreams Achamian tells us of the siege of Golgotterath and he mentions a few historical figures. One of them is Nymeric (sp?) sounding the Worldhorn. So who was he? I think he could be the dead son Celmomas talks about. Am I right, and if not, who [i:3q9bm0vt]was[/i:3q9bm0vt] he? :) Thanks a lot! view post

posted 25 Mar 2005, 07:03 in Off-Topic DiscussionErikson? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Da-krul":1l55dwa9]I'm fairly bored, I was gonna add discriptions but then I realized I wasn't THAT bored. :)[/quote:1l55dwa9] :lol: It usually takes a gun pointed to my head to make me do the least exerting thing . . . :) I really admire you, you know, I'd have been too lazy to do as much! :) view post

posted 28 Mar 2005, 10:03 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2iriy83o]I even have a historical atlas I want to put up.[/quote:2iriy83o] That's a great idea and I can't wait to see it. Will the maps be similar to the ones on the site now? Did you consider improving them? Because I actually have a few gripes about these maps . . . For one there's no way to gauge distances; there are no roadways and there are no borders! :) Now I know I'm somewhat of a perfectionist, so what bugs me may not be an issue with others, but it drives me nuts not to be able to visualize the exact sizes of the various nations. Using different colours for stuff like deserts, plains mountains etc. would also help. [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2iriy83o]There are things from the time of the Tusk I do want to flesh out, such as the conflict between the Old Prophets and the Shamans, the question of how the surviving Inchoroi brought Chorae, the 'Tears of God' to the Five Tribes before the Breaking of the Gates, and the Cuno-Halaroi Wars (Halaroi is the Nonman name for Men). Stuff like that.[/quote:2iriy83o] Interesting stuff . . . About these "Gates" . . . What exactly are they? I expect you mean fortified passes across the Kayarsus. This also begs the question: is the Kayarsus even natural. I mean, this is a huge mountain range that effectively runs the length of Earwa and seals it from the rest of the continent like a Wall of China analogue (very convenient for the Nonmen). Can such mountains be raised by sorcery? Were/are the Quya capable of such things? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2iriy83o]Nymerik is actually the King of Aorsi, and kinsman to Celmomas (my office is an absolute disaster and I can't find the chronicles, but Kuniuri, Aorsi, and Sheneor were once a single kingdom which was divided among three sons - all Anasurimbor). As for Celmomas's son, you actually learn a fair bit about him in TTT.[/quote:2iriy83o] Was this kingdom that was divided Umerau? Because you say the Anasurimbor were the third dynasty to rule Kuniuri but the timeline would not support it. It's much more plausible that they were the third royal house of Umerau. Also a closing question. You said you'd not say anything specific about Zeum, still I'm trying this one . . . Is there any contact between Zeum and Injor-Niyas, specifically by sea? The Nonman kingdom is effectively encircled by hostiles by land so the only commerce avenues they have left lead to Zeum. Thanks! view post

posted 06 Apr 2005, 16:04 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3ufudsfb]The Gates of Earwa are exactly that: a series of fortified passes through the Great Northern Kayarsus, which are most definitely natural.[/quote:3ufudsfb] 1. Only through the Northern Kayarsus? If I remember correctly, on the Eannorean side of the Southern Kayarsus there is some kind of desert . . . Did that make the Gates redundant there? Also why build them in the first place . . . did the Cunuroi have to defend Earwa from someone on the other side in the remote past? 2. Also a question on the Southern Cunuroi. Why exactly did no contact akin to that between Injor-Niyas and the Norsirai exist in the South? Did Men exterminate all remaining Nonmen there, or did they leave for the North (or wherever)? 3. Two questions on the Anasurimbor (don't know if you'll answer, the first is pretty harmless, the second . . . I don't really know :)): You've described the coats of arms of some of the Houses, such as House Nersei, House Coithus etc. in the books, so I'm interested in what the coat of arms of the House of Anasurimbor was like, and if Kellhus or his descendents will start using it again; I'd also like to know if there are any more Anasurimbor (apart from Moenghus and Kellhus) alive in Ishual or anywhere else, and if we may expect them to crop up at some point in the upcoming books. 4. You said that Prince of Nothing would tell the story of the Holy War, and Aspect-Emperor that of the Second Apocalypse, so I'd like to know if the third trilogy will continue the story of the Apocalypse or if that part of the tale ends in AE, to be replaced by something else (ordering of the post-apocalyptic world maybe?). I'd also like to know what made you decide on the twenty-year gap between PoN and AE. I assume these years will be spent fighting the Second Holy War you hinted at in some other post, so why not incorporate both holy wars in the first trilogy? Too much story to tell maybe? I can't stop thinking it would have made for some very interesting reading, especially if it spilled into other parts of the Three Seas . . . Thanks a lot! (Hope I'm not being a bore with so many questions :)) view post

posted 08 Apr 2005, 20:04 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3q7u2kvz]Sorry about the delay, WL. I started the first sentence of this response twice only to be terminally interrupted.[/quote:3q7u2kvz] Oh I don't mind, as long as I get my answers, that is . . . ;) [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3q7u2kvz]The southern Mansions were entirely obliterated.[/quote:3q7u2kvz] I've been meaning to ask you to clarify the concept of Mansion for some time. So what is a Mansion, a Nonman kingdom, a court, or both? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3q7u2kvz]3) This is something I've toyed with for years, but I've yet to come up with anything I'm happy with. It's what I call a 'high pressure' detail. It needs to be something uncommon, evocative, and threatening... An animal totem just won't do it.[/quote:3q7u2kvz] Can't wait to see what you finally decide on! :) Also, while I'm at it, I'd like to know what Cunuroi coats of arms are like. It seems Men use animals on their standards, so what about the Nonmen? Another interesting thing is the Anasurimbor Nonman heritage (could they have adopted a Nonman-like coat of arms?). Did they know they were descended from a Nonman and what was their attitude toward it? For that matter what did the Nonmen think? Did it give the Anasurimbor a slightly better standing than other monarchs? [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3q7u2kvz]Your other questions I must refrain from answering for reasons of National Security.[/quote:3q7u2kvz] And what am I to make of this? :) ;) A closing question. Will Moenghus get some airtime in TTT, I mean throughout the book, or will he remain a sort of ubiquitous hidden presence till the very end? Thanks! view post

posted 09 Apr 2005, 04:04 in Author Q & ABakker vs. Kellhus in Cranium by White Lord, Subdidact

So far the Emperor has been a very funny character to read about. Since I predict a gruesome end for him I hope it can be made entertaining as well . . . :) view post

Re: Moenghus and Mandate posted 12 Apr 2005, 02:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus and Mandate by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Morgoth Bauglir":2e5n9fl1]Could it be possible, and I'm acting on a hunch here, so bear with me, that Moenghus could be, not a Cishaurim, but some kind of Consult-spy schoolman who has mastered the Gnosis? Think about it; Dunyain have most of their power through the ability to read peoples' expressions- the Cishaurim have no eyes; while we know little about Psuke, we know that the Gnosis contains the Cants of Calling, by which someone can enter the dream of another as long as he knows where he is- i.e. Moenghus could find Kellhus. This is just a theory, and I'm not nessesarily saying I myself believe it, but it's definantley something to think about. -Morgoth Bauglir[/quote:2e5n9fl1] You can do the same thing with the Anagogis or the Psukhe. Actually I think communicating with other people with sorcery could be the easiest thing to do . . . Also remember the scene with Cishaurim sorcery while Skauras and the Emperor first negotiate, that doesn't make it like they are deficient in this department . . . view post

posted 12 Apr 2005, 02:04 in Author Q & AWill the Fanim finally get a break? by White Lord, Subdidact

You don't always have to win battles or wars in order to gain supremacy over other peoples (or lose it if you are defeated), IMO. Who knows what will happen by the time AE begins . . . :) view post

posted 12 Apr 2005, 03:04 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3p3rosxs]Sometimes I feel like you're the dirty old man in the strip bar sitting on sniff row shouting 'take it off!' :wink:[/quote:3p3rosxs] :) :) Well at least now you know what you can expect . . . :D Just one question (the only one that comes to mind ATM :)): somewhere in TWP Martemus and Conphas talk about the standard of the Over-Army (the Concubine) and there is a description of a golden disk (of Kyranean origin) with strange forms on it (alien, humanlike, with elongated limbs), so I was wondering if this is a sneaky way of giving us some idea of what the Nonmen are like, or the Inchoroi maybe . . . Thanks! view post

posted 14 Apr 2005, 03:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

I don't think the Dunyain will be destroyed outright, nor do I think you should view them only in a negative light. They are misguided, but by their very nature things can be explained to them, and I don't see Kellhus or anyone else throwing them away. Also from things Scott has said, I think we can expect great things from the Dunyain. We know from the ending of TWP that the Consult are searching for the Dunyain. They will probably be found. They will probably be flushed out of Ishual with sorcery, because otherwise a few thousand Dunyain are invincible, (remember the prologue of tDtCB and the Dunyain erasing sorcerous runes from the walls of Ishual - probably Wards against sorcery.) But you have to consider the location of Ishual itself: right next door to Injor-Niyas. If the Consult use sorcery there, the Nonmen Quya will be involved, and I predict the Nonmen and Dunyain will link up at some point. As to what could happen next, there's too little data to be sure . . . but for me the Dunyain are on the side of the good guys, if you can call [i:k2o0teyu]anyone[/i:k2o0teyu] 'good' in these books. :) view post

posted 14 Apr 2005, 07:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

The Consult only found out they [i:mynbnadh]existed at all[/i:mynbnadh] some time during TWP. From what we know, it is possible to make fortresses invisible with sorcery. It's what was done with Golgotterath by the Nonmen. That's why the scene where the Dunyain destroy the Warding runes might be important. We don't know if they have completely destroyed Ishual's defenses so it could mean that it could still be protected from attack but not invisible, or it could mean it's not protected at all, but if the Consult want to find them they will probably succeed. After all they have whole armies of Sranc available, and the last scene in TWP has them searching the Dunyain in Akksersia, on the other side of the continent, so if they're searching there they must be doing it everywhere. view post

posted 26 Apr 2005, 23:04 in The Warrior Propheterror? by White Lord, Subdidact

I don't think the book says he took out [i:k93ayv9s]his[/i:k93ayv9s] heart. Serwe and Kellhus were tied against one another whilst hanging from that tree, so what happened is that Serwe's heart got somehow stuck on Kellhus's chest (and it'd be interesting to know the details of its getting there BTW . . .). Anyway you can ask the author himself in the Q&A section if you want anything definite. view post

posted 27 Apr 2005, 00:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhat is the Thousand-Fold Thought? by White Lord, Subdidact

I think the thousandfold thought is the realization of the Logos, i.e. the knowledge one has reached the Logos. The object of the Dunyain is the discovery of the Logos, or, in other words, to become "self-moving souls", utterly free from the constraints of the world but also possessed of profound knowledge, and the fact that Kellhus, after coming down from that tree says (or thinks) among other things that he encompasses all the Three Seas, and that there are no obstacles or limits for him argues that he has actually discovered the Logos (along with Moenghus perhaps). Now one has also to think on the nature of the Logos itself, at least in the context of the world of Earwa, since I can find in Scott's writing so many echoes of real-life mythology and philosophy, but with a totally different, syncretic shape that makes predictions of any sort very tough. The concept of Logos exists in the metaphysics of the ancient Greek philosophers, it exists in the metaphysics of heretical Christians (the Gnostics), and the Logos (or Eternal Wisdom) is something that can be [i:11licutd]incarnated[/i:11licutd] into a human vessel. Since we know so little about the metaphysics of Earwa (and incidentally it's what TTT will mostly be about) we don't yet know whether you can attain the Logos through what the Dunyain have been doing (training mind and body) or if only a chosen person can get it through the intercession of some Deity from the Outside. As things stand, I'm of a mind to think that only Kellhus, as some sort of champion of the God actually has or can know the Logos, since it will be of great help in fighting the No-God . . . Then again I'm also close to thinking that Kellhus himself may be an avatar of the God (remember Serwe mentioning that in the days of the Tusk men knew the gods and the gods walked among men [i:11licutd]as [/i:11licutd]men). Ultimately, though, I think that this esoteric dimension of the story is much more important than the religious/ethical musings the protagonists make. We know so little on the Outside or better yet the ultimate rules and underpinnings of the whole reality of Earwa and the other dimension/s (such as the Outside). Once we know more we'll be able to explain not only if the Dunyain themselves are deluded in thinking they can attain the Logos but also the nature of Kellhus (Messiah/Prophet, son of God/god incarnated or whatever). Sorry for my incoherent ramblings (I'm half-asleep right now :)). Hope to hear what you think specifically on my idea on the thousandfold thought, and of course your take on where we might expect the storyline to go in relation to the metaphysics of Earwa. view post

posted 27 Apr 2005, 01:04 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by White Lord, Subdidact

Iyokus is definitely still alive. To me he's a [i:1b9lqcj5]very[/i:1b9lqcj5] ambiguous character (lots of clues on him being a powerful ally for either side), still I've got a gut feeling he may go over to Kellhus's side. Actually, by the end of TTT I expect [i:1b9lqcj5]many[/i:1b9lqcj5] characters will shed their current views on sorcery and religion (and even national allegiance). So I see Eleazaras himself along with the surviving SS (;)) and Cishaurim supporting Kellhus (it's the Mandate itself I'm dubious of). The name of the following trilogy (Aspect-Emperor) is very significant. Some think it refers to Conphas but I think we can safely assume it's Kellhus who is here referred to. Also at first I thought he'd rule an empire slowly expanding from Momemn and the Nansur lands, but right now I find it much more plausible that by the end of TTT Kellhus will be made emperor of the conquered Fanim lands (as a starting point) supported by the surviving Holy War and Great Names, with Fanim additions. Also very likely that the Consult, through the skin-spy rulers of the Inrithi will move against them. And here you have the basis of this Second Holy War Scott has been hinting at: the reconquest of the western lands by Kellhus and the Great Names. On his timely success also depends whether the Second Apocalypse will be fought in the North or in the heart of the Three Seas. view post

posted 27 Apr 2005, 01:04 in Author Q & AFeelings for our protaganist by White Lord, Subdidact

I think the people who hate Kellhus [i:1lxbho3r]a priori[/i:1lxbho3r], based on simplistic/unrealistic or too-rapid expectations, are making a big mistake. This is a story of complexity, and expecting a character to be good or evil (or of that contrived "shade of gray" that's so popular right now) from the get-go is not exactly very realistic. Kellhus is a character who is growing and developing, and in ways which are so ambiguous that many will think he's bound to do good while others'll still keep seeing him as a monster for a good while. I can tell however that in the end (when he starts doing good -- or as much good as a [i:1lxbho3r]human being[/i:1lxbho3r] (if he [i:1lxbho3r]is[/i:1lxbho3r] truly human ;)) can be expected to do -- for sound motives that have nothing to do with self-interest) he'll be much more appreciated precisely [i:1lxbho3r]because[/i:1lxbho3r] he was able to shed all that made him [i:1lxbho3r]truly[/i:1lxbho3r] alien and "evil" to begin with. view post

posted 27 Apr 2005, 01:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

I'm in agreement with almost everything Andrew wrote. A few comments: 1. The Dunyain are obviously safe for a good while, just as you said, but [i:2fuic0xu]ultimately[/i:2fuic0xu] they will be found, and what's important is how fast that'll happen: will it be before or after the beginning of the Apocalypse? You obviously see that the location of Ishual, and the mentality of the Dunyain, make them as likely to side with or against the Consult, and the nearby presence of the Nonmen makes for an explosive mix, especially if the Dunyain [i:2fuic0xu]do[/i:2fuic0xu] in fact join the Nonmen. 2. With regard to sorcery I think it's safe to assume that Moenghus only contacted people he [i:2fuic0xu]knew[/i:2fuic0xu] before leaving Ishual, and that he chose more than one for simple security/redundancy; I also think that for [i:2fuic0xu]two-way[/i:2fuic0xu] communication both sides would have to belong to the Few, but for one-way communication I expect all one'd have to do was know the person and the location to send these dreams. 3. Regarding your speculations on the Dunyain having sorcerous potential, all things are possible, but I'd first like to know if there are any more Anasurimbor at Ishual (something Scott has refused to answer :)) and also how much Anasurimbor blood is in the rest of the Dunyain. I think the Anasurimbor line may be hereditary sorcerers (remember they are descended from a Nonman, and if he was a Quya it could be that every future generation has this ability, or at least a very significant number of descendants unlike other humans). view post

posted 27 Apr 2005, 02:04 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Triple-J":s2pswjos]It's entirely possible that the third book will resolve all of my concerns. Of course, it could also only make them worse! :D For what it's worth -- and again, I realize that my problems with Kellhus are not necessarily shared by your other readers -- I would suggest that if Kellhus does turn out to be a prophet, you need to explain: (a) what it means to be a prophet (b) why being a prophet would give him special powers (c) what made him a prophet/how he became one Without at least basic answers to these questions, the revelation that Kellhus really is a prophet wouldn't help us understand the events of the first two books.[/quote:s2pswjos] TTT is supposed to be heavy on the metaphysics of Earwa, which should explain a lot of what you (and we all :)) ask and more besides. One reason why I can't wait for the book to be out; it's a hell making predictions with next to no knowledge of one of the most important dimensions of the story. Now a question for the author :): I'm interested in the existence of surviving (human) Gnostic sorcerers (or 'underground' Schools) in the North. From what we know, at least two human cities have survived, virtually isolated, and encircled by numerous and dangerous enemies, for close to two millennia; there are also numerous human tribes scattered throughout the North. So the existence of Gnostic sorcerers where the art was most widespread would be a plausible supposition . . . Am I right in thinking the Mandate are not the only School/group of human sorcerers that has knowledge of the Gnosis at this present? Thanks a lot! :) view post

posted 01 May 2005, 00:05 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Atanvarno":6p2dld2u]Aye, I'd never really considered that the Consult might have access to sorcery (be it Gnostic or ortherwise), and assumed they had the Tekne alone. In this I may be wrong, and probably am considering the resources of the Consult.[/quote:6p2dld2u] The Consult as such is a cabal of generals and sorcerers, as you can see from the faction guide in the book. In fact Golgotterath was "reactivated" by a Gnostic School of the Ancient North (the Mangaecca), so there's no doubt they know and use Gnostic sorcery. (The Tekne seems to be some sort of bioscience that only the Inchoroi know and use -- don't think they have shared this with their human and nonmen allies, too important to give up so easily. Also, since the Inchoroi were/are a star-faring, technical society you can assume they have at least the theoretical knowledge of what we consider advanced science, even though they probably don't have the resources/tools to turn it into weapons). [quote="Atanvarno":6p2dld2u]However, this does make me wonder, unlike men the Consult may actually understand how the chorae work, thier metaphysics, etc. which then begs the question, have the worked out a way to block them? All pure speculation of course, but a possibility none the less.[/quote:6p2dld2u] They ought to know all on Chorae since they were the ones who created them in the first place (or the Inchoroi, really . . .). If you check one of the old threads in the Q&A section you'll find an answer by Scott on Chorae. Basically what he said is: Chorae were invented by renegade Nonmen sorcerers, who defected to the Inchoroi, at the time of the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars. Seems the Inchoroi were losing the war because, though they had advanced technological weapons, they had no sorcery. The renegade Nonmen sorcerers developed the Aporos (a branch of the Gnosis). The Aporos (sorcery of contradictions) can unravel and render meaningless any Cant or sorcery. So to return to the Chorae: they are metallic spheres, [i:6p2dld2u]with Choric or Aporetic runes engraved on them[/i:6p2dld2u]. So it seems that without the runes with their unraveling spell they would be just that, metallic balls. From this it's obvious that the Aporos is capable not only of nullifying Gnostic and Anagogic sorcery, but also of instantly killing a sorcerer. I asked Scott if Aporetic sorcery can be used for offensive spells (such as blocking a Chorae, which is basically a frozen Aporetic Cant anyone can wield) and he didn't answer since it would be a spoiler. So basically, if we learn from the book that Aporetic sorcerers can stop one another's spells, then, yes, Chorae can be stopped. Guess we'll have to wait till TTT or later for an answer. [quote="Atanvarno":6p2dld2u]Also, on an off topic point. If men possess so few trinkets, then why have chorae bowmen? This always bugged me: a chorae is such a precious item, that cannot be replaced, and jealously guraded by the nobility. Indeed, the gift of several chorae to the Scarlet Spires was enough to make them sit up and take serious notice. Yet these things are fashioned into arrows, and fired away (yes, to great affect), yet retrieving an arrow is a difficult task, it always seemed such a waste, unsustainable in fact. Say if there were as many as ten thousand chorae in the hands of men (which I highly doubt, if it's ten times fewer I'd still be surprised), take two thousand years of wars after the Apocalypse in which chorae bowmen are used... the damn things would [i:6p2dld2u]run out[/i:6p2dld2u] at some point. Perhaps I should ask Scott.[/quote:6p2dld2u] Your number is actually dead-on. If you check Book 1 (where Achamian speaks with the Quorum in Atyersus) you'll see that the Thousand Temples alone have some five thousand Chorae, with an equal number held by the nobility throughout the Three Seas. As for them all being made into arrows, that's impossible. If you consider the numbers of sorcerers, as a whole, over the entire continent, I seriously doubt that there are even five thousand, and how many sorcerers do you think would be present at any one battle? I doubt if you would find more than twenty of them. So basically most Chorae would be worn by the nobility, and foot soldiers or cavalry (remember the Shrial Knights) for protection, with sufficient chorae bowmen to try and deal with the sorcerers. As for your question about loss of Chorae, well it all depends on who wins the battle: if you have defeated the sorcerers and the army that was supporting them you basically have possession of the battlefield, with all the time in the world to fine-comb it searching for the arrows (and this was a common practice on medieval battlefields). view post

posted 01 May 2005, 01:05 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1hjm5l6k][quote:1hjm5l6k]Am I right in thinking the Mandate are not the only School/group of human sorcerers that has knowledge of the Gnosis at this present? [/quote:1hjm5l6k] Yes. :wink:[/quote:1hjm5l6k] Well at least I got this one right . . . :) A few questions about Aporetic sorcery and Chorae: 1. You said Aporetic sorcery was used by the defecting Nonmen Quya to make Chorae. So I'd like to know if these defectors were the only Quya who knew/developed the Aporos or if there were/are any loyal Quya left who know and use the Aporos. Also do the Consult/Inchoroi still have practitioners of the Aporos or know how to make any new Chorae? 2. I'm interested in the effects of two clashing Aporetic cants: do they cancel each other out? Would an Aporetic sorcerer stand a chance of destroying a Chorae (which I assume is a frozen Aporetic cant that any mundane can use) directed against him? 3. The exact reason why Chorae instantly destroy a sorcerer. I assume this happens because sorcerers, while crafting a Cant are actually imbuing it with some of their essence, and that the Chorae, unraveling the Cant also unravel the place within the sorcerer from where the sorcery comes from -- and so, unraveling this metaphysical link results in the unfortunate ;) side effect of turning them into a pillar of salt. Anything to this? Thanks! view post

posted 02 May 2005, 04:05 in The Thousandfold Thoughtlivin n dyin in TTT by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="anor277":2xnbe1ik]We've gone off topic, but Cnaiur mentioned that his trinket was among a gift from the No-god to his people (this makes sense if the chorae originated from the Inchoroi and the rogue Non-men). Quite possibly, the Scylvendi probably possessed a lot of trinkets. They had never been defeated on the field and had 1000's of years history of looting and pillaging. After Kiyuth of course all those trinkets wold now be in the hands of the Nansur.[/quote:2xnbe1ik] Well I suspect that after they joined the No-God they were given a second batch of Chorae. The Chorae they had before (along with the Chorae all the other nations have) were given to men a long time before that. Actually the surviving Inchoroi, after they'd been defeated by the Nonmen, somehow contacted the five tribes while they were still in Eanna. They gave them the Chorae and knowledge on how to break the Gates of Earwa. This started the migration described in the Tusk and the Cuno-Halaroi Wars (Halaroi is the Nonman name for Men) and the near-obliteration of the Nonmen. So you see, the Inchoroi actually almost succeeded in defeating the Nonmen through surrogates. It's ironic that 2000 years later they attempted to wipe out Men as well. :) You can't trust the bastards . . . At any rate it would be interesting to know if this second batch of Chorae the Scylvendi received was some sort of remnant from the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars, or if they still know how to make them. It'd be very awkward for men to fight a Consult who could rain showers of Chorae on any battlefield . . . As to numbers and current location of Scylvendi Chorae your guess is as good as mine . . . A more important question would be: What and where is the Heron Spear? It was last seen in Cenei, and the Scylvendi sacked that city. So I guess it could be either destroyed or hanging in some chieftain's yaksh as a useless trophy . . . I get the impression the thing could still play some role, since it knocked out the No-God in Round One. view post

Re: Should Kellhus learn the Gnosis? posted 02 May 2005, 05:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtShould Kellhus learn the Gnosis? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="anor277":2magpvgs]Just a question connected to chorae. Kellhus is a man of prodigal intellect and prodigal reflexes – no one we’ve seen in the Three Seas can compete with him intellectually or physically. It might be that his learning the Gnosis would complete the package (i.e. he would become the ultimate warrior/prophet/sorceror/sage) . Nevertheless by uttering a cant he would, (i) earn the enmity of the laity (i.e. shades of “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” etc. Censure of and sanction against sorcerors and witches seem to be fairly potent in the the Three Seas, (ii) more importantly, he would render himself vulnerable to chorae. Of course Kellhus’ reflexes allow him to pick crossbow bolts out of midair. If he becomes a sorceror he will have to check that the arrows/quarrels etc directed at him in battle do not have a chorae attached. Other temporal powers in the Three Seas (i.e. the Nansur Emperor, Maithanet – I know he is not temporal!) can hold office without exercising sorcerous powers themselves, indeed the Nansur emperor directs a School. So should Kellhus learn sorcery?[/quote:2magpvgs] I think that by the end of TTT there will be a drastic reevaluation of sorcery. Everyone thinks sorcerers are sinners, but they do so because they believe that men should not "ape" the gods since they are not godlike. This is what the "gods" of the Tusk say, this is what human narrowmindedness and bigotry believe. However, and if you do a search on the net -- [url=]check this for an overview on gnosticism[/url:2magpvgs] -- about gnostic esoterics (I advise reading the linked page since it's important for my reasoning below) you'll see that most gnostics believe that the god that created the material world (the demiurge), and his servants (the archons) are not the true authors of [i:2magpvgs]all[/i:2magpvgs] creation, but an unknowable Eternal Creator who is the source of all light. So whatever the gods of the Tusk or the God of the Inrithi say may not necessarily be true or "good" if we can follow gnostic esoterics far enough through the storyline. Basically the Supreme Being (who is the only one "uncreated" because he came before everything and created everything by exploding himself -- think a spiritual big bang event) caused his light to spread in all directions and as this light in the form of light-creatures (called the aeons) got farther from him it became dimmer, more polluted and unaware of the Creator. The human soul is nothing if not an aeon (a part of the Supreme Being himself trapped in a prison of flesh by the ignorance and conceitedness of the Demiurge who thinks himself the true god and makes it very difficult for man to return to the Father i.e. the Supreme Being) so is a sorcerer who uses the Gnosis really a sinner or is he the man who has the advantage of understanding more easily than most others his own divine nature and the ability to start the return to the Father? It is also interesting that the gnostics admit the existence of three categories of men: the pneumatics -- those who have the most spiritual empathy, those who can achieve the Gnosis with the least effort (you can think of them as the Few from Scott's books); the psychics -- those who have less emphatic ability than the pneumatics but who can achieve the Gnosis through the rules of some religion that contains Truth (could this be what the Cishaurim are? Remember they reject the Aspects of God as demons.); and lastly the hyletics: materialists who are entirely under the spell of the Demiurge and who are so far misled that they will not even try to believe that they may be a part of a great divine being -- basically most of the religious bigots in the world of Earwa. So if you examine the situation regarding sorcery in the Three Seas you can see the Few as being the pneumatics of gnostic esoterism, the ones who can find the truth more easily than others; they themselves however only use the God's creative power without understanding their true role in the metaphysical scheme of things, and here I see the great role of Kellhus. Since I think he is the Logos of the True God, the wisdom of the God, I believe he is here to give the sorcerers a true spiritual direction, making them the true priests of the God, warriors against the Demiurge (could the No-God be the demiurge, or one of his archons maybe?) and his tyranny over men. Now I admit that there may not be a total correspondence between gnostic and kindred esoterics and what Scott is trying to show us, still it's interesting to note the similarities, and speculate on where the story is going from this point of view. Looking forward to some discussion on this. view post

posted 04 May 2005, 01:05 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1cuchch8]The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden.[/quote:1cuchch8] Interesting to know the Quya fought one another. But what stopped them (if it did . . .), in a world without Chorae, to assume the kind of power that most sorcerers seem to want in the Three Seas, and are prevented from acquiring precisely because of their existence? Also, since we're talking about the Cunuroi, I'd like to know if they are immortal (or at least very long-lived) because the physiological makeup of their bodies supports it or through some sort of esoteric/metaphysical rite of passage? After all, almost all religions promise eternal life, and nearly all sects with "secret knowledge" seem to think they can somehow gain immortality and bequeath it to their descendants. Is there any merit to this second hypothesis? Thanks! view post

posted 04 May 2005, 01:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtShould Kellhus learn the Gnosis? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="sciborg2":1sjihkvr]sorry, i had a mind-spasm. suddenly it felt like so many things connected to the books, a dozen-fold thought, if you will. i was just thinking that khellus could get around the vulnerability to chorae by resolving the contradiction inscribed on each one.[/quote:1sjihkvr] I don't really know about that . . . Anyway, from what Scott said, it seems that Chorae kill sorcerers because there is a link between sorcerer and sorcery, ergo, if Chorae can kill the sorcerous Cant they can kill the sorcerer too (this is a fortunate byproduct of the Aporos, which cannot be used offensively but only to deconstruct Cants). By this logic, if a sorcerer uses exclusively a form of sorcery that the Aporos cannot unravel he cannot be harmed by Chorae. Now it remains to be seen if any such sorcery exists or will exist. What's sure, however, is that the Consult are very anxious to get rid of the Cishaurim . . . view post

posted 09 May 2005, 04:05 in Author Q & AHow does the Consult fit? by White Lord, Subdidact

This is an interesting question . . . Then again, you yourself have said that Scott has managed to portray all these inverted archetypes so well that I suspect the case with the Consult itself may not be so simple. From what we know, (and that is also very little), many people who joined the Consult were not exactly evil, just warped by the influence of the Inchoroi (who are themselves very complex creatures -- shameless hedonists one moment, butchers the next). We also know that at least one member (the Mantraitor) fought against Golgoterath at some point, so I think this same ambiguity that accompanies most characters could mean that members of the Consult itself could desert and join the other side, and that it is not exactly an impregnable monolith, since, like most organizations, I expect there to be internal factions and rivalries. But I think we should wait for Scott's answer for anything definite . . . view post

posted 09 May 2005, 04:05 in Author Q & AHow does the Consult fit? by White Lord, Subdidact

Some very interesting observations, H, not very different from my own. That the Consult (and the Inchoroi) have been trying to wipe out Men and Nonmen for many thousands of years for a [i:25a75fn3]reason[/i:25a75fn3] is certain: check one of the scenes in TWP where the Consult Synthese says to the skin-spy something along the lines of -- [i:25a75fn3]fault? the very thing we are trying to destroy?[/i:25a75fn3] Remember that the Inchoroi came in a spaceship (could the Nonmen have shot it down with sorcery) that was so damaged that they were effectively [i:25a75fn3]forced[/i:25a75fn3] to stay (is this the fault that was meant in the book?) So this could all be some implacable vengeance on the Inchoroi's part, or, as you say, something more, that they, as strangers to Earwa, have perceived and are trying to achieve. view post

posted 09 May 2005, 06:05 in Author Q & AHow does the Consult fit? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="H":1fei4fcy]Hmmm, i still think that the nature of the No-God is central to the whole problem.[/quote:1fei4fcy] I'm not at all sure who controlled whom: did the Consult learn of the No-God and somehow constrain him, using his power to their own ends (all descriptions of the No-God from Achamian's dreams are to the effect that the No-God doesn't even know what his nature is; then you have the nimil carapace and the choric runes which indicate some sort of prison or control shell -- and most important, this is something that the Inchoroi were developing before the ascendance of Men in Earwa, something that the renegade Nonmen sorcerers probably had a hand in), or was it the other way around (the No-God manifesting himself to the Inchoroi, giving them their mission, which the Consult is now continuing). [quote="H":1fei4fcy]And this just came to me, could the Consult thus be seen as a sort of allusion to Nazism? In so far as an attempt at selective breeding to eliminate 'atavisms' and establish a New Order of 'rationality' as opposed to faith and magic? Of cource it could just be that i'm all wrong, it is 1 am here...[/quote:1fei4fcy] Don't know about that . . . The Inchoroi were not sorcerers, originally. But Aurang, the Synthese from TWP is both Inchoroi and sorcerer, which means that something has been going on these last 3000 years that has made them capable of working sorcery. That's not supportive of an Inchoroi drive toward a non-sorcerous, rational world. To return to the "fault" question, the precise quote would be "Fault?" "The very poison we would suck from this world." To me it could be something connected with morality, and the Inchoroi's aversion to it. You would not consider "normal" or proper the Inchoroi's practices, and this aversion that stems from morality could be the reason the Nonmen fought them. In a world without morality, where questions of good and evil are meaningless, the Inchoroi would be nothing out of the ordinary, hence the attempt to purge the representatives of morality (men and nonmen) and the source of morality (the gods?) [Also note that the Inchoroi and the Consult did not want to destroy everyone [i:1fei4fcy]a priori[/i:1fei4fcy]: they accepted the Scylvendi, and they demanded submission of Seswatha once Celmomas was dead. This could mean they were willing to accept those who had no interest in criticizing their practices and Weltanschauung.]. Then there is also the matter of what was used by the gods to create the world in the first place. Most probably it was sorcery, but of an infinitely more powerful variant than anything Men and Nonmen can use. A sorcery using [i:1fei4fcy]positive semantics[/i:1fei4fcy], which can create something. Now going back to the carapace and choric runes that are connected to the No-God the allusion to the Aporos is clear. The Aporos is a sorcery based on [i:1fei4fcy]negative semantics[/i:1fei4fcy], so the No-God could be put in some sort of challenging position vis-a-vis the "positive" god/s. So if the god/s are the source of all sorcery that is based on positive semantics, then the No-God could be the principle from which sorcery based on negative semantics originates. And here is also the (possible) answer on how the No-God was discovered in the first place: by the Nonmen Quya who were studying the Aporos. Say, then, that the No-God is the negation of prevailing morality, an opposition to the cosmogony the ruling god/s represent. A lot of rambling, I know, (hey, it's late here too :)) just thought I'd share some of my ideas on the subject. Hope you can make something out of it. :) view post

posted 12 May 2005, 18:05 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1bm4l770]The Nonmen were always long-lived, WL, but it was the Inchoroi who [i:1bm4l770]made[/i:1bm4l770] them immortal (the Womb-Plague and the final Cuno-Inchoroi war was a direct consequence of this). This is a tale for another day, however. :wink:[/quote:1bm4l770] Very interesting . . . You could almost say the Nonmen were asking for it since I assume the Inchoroi didn't do it out of the goodness of their hearts (or did they ;)) . . . :) Now a few questions: 1. A question about the Aporos. Are there any sorcerers outside the Consult (possibly) and the Nonmen who know about it and use it? I assume the Mandate doesn't, otherwise Achamian would have easily destroyed the SS sorcerers in the Sareotic library. But what about the Schools of the Ancient North, did they have that knowledge, is it still known, perhaps by those unknown gnostic sorcerers you hinted at upthread? 2. Thinking about the way the Dunyain first found Ishual during their exodus, and Ishual's location itself (right on the border of Injor-Niyas), made me wonder if they were not perhaps trying to reach the protection of the Nonman kingdom, perhaps along with many other Kuniuric subjects? Anything in this idea? Are there human populations under the Nonmen's protection at the time of the Holy War? Thanks! view post

posted 16 May 2005, 11:05 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2sbfphjr]I've actually been considering your first question myself. My original idea was for the Aporos to be a 'dead and ancient' branch of the esoterics. I'm still leaning in that direction, but I find the notion of a sorcery based on a semantics of contradiction and paradox almost too juicy to resist![/quote:2sbfphjr] Then don't resist it! :) It would certainly complicate things for the protagonists, but would make for a much more enjoyable tale. A question about nimil. You said it was stronger than steel. What I'd like to know is: do the Nonmen manufacture it through wholly mundane means, or is sorcery involved? Also, is it more complicated than making plain steel? Another curiosity would be why the Nonmen didn't share nimil with their human allies, since they were willing enough to share the Gnosis, which represents a much bigger concession than the secret of a mere metal alloy. And during the Apocalypse nimil would have made a difference against the bronze the opposition was using. Thanks! view post

Re: A note on other races posted 16 May 2005, 11:05 in Author Q & AA note on other races by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":yjpfxano]Is this something you tend to focus on in upcoming books, to really flesh out the Cunuroi and perhaps the Inchoroi as well. Obviously they don't have to be [i:yjpfxano]like[/i:yjpfxano] Tolkien's Elves, it would rather be something wholly yours but still wonderfully awe-inspiring. Adding a major character from such race to the foreground of the story, is that something that you have in mind?[/quote:yjpfxano] I think this is where the books will inevitably go. If I remember correctly, Scott said that even as early as TTT we would see something of the Nonmen, i.e. first-person exposition, and if you add to that that we will "see" the Bashrag as well, it means some sort of conflict in the North between the Nonmen and the Consult. A lot of potential there to introduce characters, even if they don't come to the forefront of the story for some time. view post

posted 16 May 2005, 17:05 in Author Q & AA note on other races by White Lord, Subdidact

Well, this is the quote from Scott: [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1qv9y38g]You're not missing a thing, EE. Everything's some shade a grey, and nothing moreso than the Nonmen. Strangely enough, TTT actually does set foot on a couple of Cunuroi (Nonmen) paths.[/quote:1qv9y38g] I took it to mean some point-of-view scenes featuring the Cunuroi . . . I may be mistaken, still it's what it looks like to me. view post

Re: The Logos/Dunyain posted 19 May 2005, 08:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Logos/Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

Some comments. Don't have a lot of time for detailed speculation, so I'll just point out where I think you're wrong: [quote="Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc]1. The population of Dunyain, it would seem to me, is limited by several factors. Primarily their expressed desire to remain undiscovered. Let us assume that the population numbers as little as 1,000 functional adults[/quote:3voq4tpc] I think your figure is too small. My reckoning puts the Dunyain at a minimum of four thousand people. Ishual is a citadel, i.e. built in the first place to host a large body of fighting men and to provide the sustenance they would need year round. [quote="Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc](I’ll come back to the functional part in a short while). Considering the technology available to them (mid to late iron age) and their lack of horses (Kellus walked out) we would need to assume that the majority of the population (75%-90%) are farmers. Were these farms as small as 20 acres each (7.5 acres is considered subsistence farming using modern techniques) this would lead us to assume that the Dunyain community was cultivating 15,000-18,000 acres ( approx. 23-31 square miles.) Which I think we can agree is a sizable area. In that they have not been discovered sitting on the Consult’s doorstep I think it safe to assume they haven’t grown much beyond these limits.[/quote:3voq4tpc] That's impossible. Ishual is situated in the middle of a substantial chain of mountains, there's no space fit for farming outside Ishual's walls to speak of, and it's plain that they have all the food they need grown inside Ishual. About how their technology stands, I think you are underestimating what the Dunyain know or use. If you think they started the community in the Bronze Age, and have been isolated ever since, how do you think they came up with steel that is stronger than any steel in the Three Seas? I think that, given time and thought, they'd be able to solve any problems they encounter without exiting the walls of Ishual. Anyway, if they farmed such a large tract of land there is no way they'd have escaped the Consult, [i:3voq4tpc]no way[/i:3voq4tpc]. [quote="Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc]2. The Dunyain started with a very limited gene pool (my guess is that there were probably less than 100 refugees). Were there more than this to begin with they would have been thinned out during the first few years from starvation and 11 years of stillborn. Even with their breeding program we can assume a large number of culls (non-functionals), probably the source for Kellus’ “face” training.[/quote:3voq4tpc] The face-training specimens come from outside. The Dunyain maintain some contact with the nearest human tribes, and sometimes people simply wander too close to Ishual and are captured. This is also a source of trade for the advanced goods the Dunyain can manufacture in exchange for food, when it's needed. [quote="Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc]A. Sorcery is supernatural in origin. By supernatural I do not mean more than nature but instead outside of nature. B. The outside source of sorcery is The God(s).[/quote:3voq4tpc] With this I agree. [quote="Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc]The Logos is a brand of sorcery. Wait…wait…wait, put down the rocks… hear me out. I have a couple of reasons to think this. First off is that every form of sorcery in the books is loaded with a capital letter to make it stand out (Gnosis, Psuke, Tekne… Logos). But beyond this admittedly thin argument, I have several thoughts.[/quote:3voq4tpc] The Tekne is not sorcery, it's bioscience. The Logos is also not sorcery as one understands it IMO. [quote="Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc]First off is that the Dunyain have been able maintain a bloodline over two thousand years in such purity that it is recognizable (Akka recognized Kellus as an Anisurimbor). Second, the probability trance smacks of the super natural/sorcerous (even Herbert’s Mentats required greater time than this and they had been bred for tens of thousands of years). Even reaching the point of the probability trance is less than 2000 years implies sorcerous interference.[/quote:3voq4tpc] It implies a [i:3voq4tpc]divine[/i:3voq4tpc], not a sorcerous intervention, and I hope you see the difference. [quote="Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc]Third the existence of sorcery indicates that the Few eventually have to use it and the Schools merely teach outlets.[/quote:3voq4tpc] You do not have to learn sorcery, or use it if you do not want it. It doesn't work that way. The College of Luthymae of the Thousand Temples is full of sorcerers who have never uttered a single cant. [quote="Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc]With the inward focus of the Logos it would seem that the Logos is the sorcery of self manipulation. This would explain why the Chorae did not effect Kellus… not Cants to stop.[/quote:3voq4tpc] This is explained well enough in the books. Chorae affect the Few only when they utter a sorcerous cant and gain the Mark. You can be one of the Few and be immune to Chorae if you have never actually [i:3voq4tpc]worked[/i:3voq4tpc] sorcery. There are also [i:3voq4tpc]certain[/i:3voq4tpc] cants one can utter and be immune to them, which is what Kellhus did in TWP. [quote="Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc]It would also explain how Kellus defeated Cnaiur with so little effort (beat him as a man would a child) despite Cnaiur being arguably the best (unaltered) warrior presented in the books as yet.[/quote:3voq4tpc] He beat Cnaiur because of his breeding. It's as simple as that. I'd guess any Dunyain's musculature is much more powerful, i.e. efficient than any world-born's, and also his reflexes are much more rapid and controlled. Also about the probability trance, and other techniques the Dunyain use to aid reason, but also to fight better, I see no sorcerous origin. I guess you may be right on an interference from the Outside, I too think of such an interference, but choose to call it divine rather than sorcerous, because you would then have to postulate an existing sorcerous metaphysics explaining the Logos or the Probability Trance. I view it simply as the result of a highly successful breeding and training process. As to divine intervention, I hold Achamian's view that everything has a [i:3voq4tpc]purpose[/i:3voq4tpc], so the purpose of the Dunyain, regardless of what they think or do, was to enhance physically and mentally the line of Anasurimbor, and bring it intact to the present time, when [i:3voq4tpc]it[/i:3voq4tpc] has to fulfill [i:3voq4tpc]its[/i:3voq4tpc] purpose. Comments welcome. view post

posted 20 May 2005, 17:05 in The Warrior ProphetAchamian vs. Kellhus: faith vs. certainty by White Lord, Subdidact

I'm a bit strapped for time, so I'll just make a few observations and pose some questions. First of all, I'd say that both certainty and doubt are very dangerous if carried to extremes. Then I'd also question your view on Kellhus's spreading "his" certainties, or the belief that his new religion is one of certainty. For one, Kellhus as a [i:v77ug38c]person[/i:v77ug38c], with his peculiar attributes, is much more responsible for the virtual enslavement of his adherents, than is his religious message. Of course, he uses his gifts to compel people's actions in the direction he needs them to go, and this for reasons that we can regard as justified (if we believe that Kellhus himself may be an unconscious agent for some entity in the Outside). On the other hand, his "religious" message is one of true liberation, because he is effectively espousing Achamian's own views on uncertainty (remember that what goes on in Kellhus's head -- or what he believes to be [i:v77ug38c]certain[/i:v77ug38c] at the moment -- is not reflected in his words and instructions to the outside world; what he currently is differs from the image he projects and this can be a source of confusion). Basically he's saying that you may believe, and hope you're right, but this should not carry you as far as eliminating physically your opponents (and all the other hallmarks of fanaticism). At the moment, from the Holy War's perspective, and for Kellhus's own need, it's much safer to have him have his way. As for what happens when his message begins to spread, well, as I said, it should be a lot of help in decreasing religious tensions in the Three Seas, and if Kellhus's "miracles" continue, I expect a significant number of converts. This is also a sound strategy for gaining secular power in the fastest possible way. view post

posted 25 May 2005, 11:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Logos/Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Tattooed Hand":2ca3pdsn][quote:2ca3pdsn]The face-training specimens come from outside. The Dunyain maintain some contact with the nearest human tribes, and sometimes people simply wander too close to Ishual and are captured. This is also a source of trade for the advanced goods the Dunyain can manufacture in exchange for food, when it's needed. [/quote:2ca3pdsn] I have to disagree with this, White Lord. I don't think the Dunyain have had ANY contact with the outside world. The face specimens were failed Dunyain who as a result of physical and/or mental defects (probably from too much inbreeding) were unable to complete training and were used for training purposes such as these. I am pretty sure this is outright stated that they are failed Dunyain in TWP. [/quote:2ca3pdsn] I know no such thing is stated in TWP (about Dunyain defectives). What I was referring to was mentioned by Scott on this board. I'll try to find the exact quote (buried somewhere in the Q&A board), but I don't have time right now. Anyway, I agree with you that the Dunyain have no [i:2ca3pdsn]extensive[/i:2ca3pdsn] contact with the outside world (they never stray far from Ishual, but they [i:2ca3pdsn]do[/i:2ca3pdsn] get outside to some extent -- remember the forest training scene from Kellhus's recollections), still some contact with humans (defectives) exists, and was mentioned by Scott on the board. I'm positive he mentioned the neuropuncture scene and the origin of the specimens. [quote="Tattooed Hand":2ca3pdsn]I also think that the Kelhus's physical abilities and mental abilities are naturally quite elevated and have had the benefit of being honed even further by Dunyain training.[/quote:2ca3pdsn] I agree. The Anasurimbor have Nonman blood, which gives them some "advantages" Scott has hinted at. What they are is open to debate, but the fact is that the Anasurimbor were superior to ordinary men at the time of the Apocalypse and are infinitely more so after Dunyain conditioning, which is a reason why I think there was some divine interference responsible for the Dunyain finding Ishual in the first place and "nurturing" the Anasurimbor line. view post

posted 25 May 2005, 12:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Logos/Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="bovine_buddha":9znqp6gi]About the question whether sorcery is natural or supernatural, where most Fantasy books tend to use the latter, I think it it most important to have in mind the opening quote from PoN Chapter 3: "If the world is a game whose rules are written by God, and sorcerers are those who cheat and cheat, then who has written the rules of sorcery?" - Zarathinius, [i:9znqp6gi]A Defense of the Arcane Arts[/i:9znqp6gi] As Zarathinius obviously thinks and states (and maybe Bakker), sorcery is not what God used to create the world and is thus not divine, since he believes God also wrote the rules of sorcery (or so I interpret the quote). So while sorcery is certainly not something everyone is capable of, the issue of whether it is natural or supernatural will probably never be fully revealed, since a solution to the question posed in the quote would be philosophical in nature, and thus subjective and highly normative. Furthermore, Bakker himself has stated that sorcery is hereditary, connected with our genes, which gives further inclination of it being more "natural" than "supernatural".[/quote:9znqp6gi] I don't know about that. First of all, we know other dimensions of reality (the Outside for one) exist, which obviously have different "natural" rules, and still sorcery can bridge this gap between realities, can bring a demon in the flesh from another world to the one of Earwa. There is nothing, either in the quote you cite, or in the other references in the books, that somehow negates that sorcery is what was used by the divinity to create all realities. The god has written [i:9znqp6gi]all[/i:9znqp6gi] rules, so the fact that sorcery has some rules (or that the [i:9znqp6gi]kind[/i:9znqp6gi] of sorcery [i:9znqp6gi]men[/i:9znqp6gi] use has these rules, and the relative [i:9znqp6gi]strength[/i:9znqp6gi] in it available to them) does not preclude some deeper and stronger sorcery that men cannot use. I also think there is a very good reason behind the availability of sorcery to certain persons in this particular reality. I think it's the [i:9znqp6gi]use[/i:9znqp6gi] of it by men that is somehow blasphemous, because misunderstood in its original purpose. But there is no question of its divine origin, not even the religions in Earwa doubt that, their condemnation of sorcerers results from the fact they do not think man worthy enough to use the highest power (the power of the God) that can modify reality itself, can bend the rules of nature with the utmost ease. This is also interesting because it makes us ask ourselves whether man is [i:9znqp6gi]really[/i:9znqp6gi] unworthy, or if maybe the God made sorcery available in the first place because it is the best pathway man can use either to come closest to the God, or to [i:9znqp6gi]become[/i:9znqp6gi] a god . . . :) Another interesting thought is that no one really knows what is or isn't possible with sorcery. It is entirely dependent on the intellect and the experience of the sorcerer. So if you consider the God himself as the greatest sorcerer of them all (the one with the greatest intellect), there is nothing that would prevent a human with a big enough imagination, a deep enough intellect, to modify reality to an incredible degree, to somehow achieve a sort of divinity (in the sense that sorcery has absolute control of space and time, as well as other dimensions). It will be very interesting to see what Kellhus can "do" with the Gnosis . . . :) view post

posted 25 May 2005, 12:05 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1sozdyyg]I'm already running into problems (of the groaning editor kind) with the sheer [i:1sozdyyg]length[/i:1sozdyyg] of the Appendices to TTT. These past few weeks have been blowing my mind, world-wise. I sometimes find it hard to believe I took all that time to cook this stuff up! When I write my Bio, I'm going to call it [i:1sozdyyg]Confessions of a World-junkie[/i:1sozdyyg]....[/quote:1sozdyyg] Well, for one [i:1sozdyyg]I'll[/i:1sozdyyg] never complain about the length of the appendices . . . :) Anyway, is the Encyclopaedic Glossary to TTT the only one you intend to compile, or can we expect others in the following series? A few questions (:)): 1. About [i:1sozdyyg]The Sagas[/i:1sozdyyg], what exactly are they? Is there any correlation with the northern European sagas? Just how accurate (historically) are they, and how widespread/popular? Also, is there any mention of Anasurimbor exploits in them? 2. You said all the Cunuroi in the south were exterminated. But do you include Zeum in the "south" as well, or only the Three Seas? 3. From your comments about Inchoroi responsibility for the immortality of the Nonmen, and their brains that decay after five human lifetimes, is it right then that their original lifespan was confined to about 400 years? Thanks a lot! :) view post

posted 25 May 2005, 12:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="anor277":15v05hl0]By the same reasoning, it is also not possible for skin spies to be sorcerors. They are non-magical creatures that are indetectable to actual sorcerors, who would readily detect the mark of sorcery (at least the non-Cishaurim variety).[/quote:15v05hl0] This has been bothering me for some time . . . Can Tekne constructs [i:15v05hl0]really[/i:15v05hl0] not be sorcerers? Remember Scott has said sorcery is [i:15v05hl0]genetic[/i:15v05hl0] in origin. Also the Inchoroi were not sorcerers when they first came to Earwa. The point being that the Mark issue is that a sorcerous construct bears a certain [i:15v05hl0]kind[/i:15v05hl0] of mark that warns sorcerers of its sorcerous origin. But [i:15v05hl0]sorcerers themselves[/i:15v05hl0] have a mark, their blood stain. So is it really impossible for the Consult to construct receptacles, genetically manipulated (from Nonman Quya genes maybe?) to enable an Inchoroi (or whoever) to wield sorcery? And show exactly the kind of Mark every normal sorcerer bears? Remember that Achamian (who is our source of information on this issue) does not know what headways the Consult has made with the Tekne. He's scared shitless when he sees the skin-spy, thinks the Consult could even resurrect the No-God (who is definitely not your average skin-spy). From his initial remarks it seems you can create living constructs with sorcery, but this is certainly a lot more crude than what the Tekne can do, and if we get back to the Consult Synthese (also a Tekne construct), which is the shell for an Inchoroi, and that this Inchoroi can work sorcery, while the first Inchoroi couldn't, well you see what I'm driving at . . . view post

posted 25 May 2005, 13:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

Just adding a few more considerations on my previous post: Basically what Achamian and other sorcerers have looked at is how you could substitute a non-sorcerer with a clone that another sorcerer would not recognize as a sorcerous artifact. This can be done easily with the Tekne. On the other hand, if you want to substitute a sorcerer with a construct that can work sorcery, but does not bear the [i:1zmzp2az]signs[/i:1zmzp2az] of a sorcerous construct, the Tekne can (very probably) be of help as well, as long as you don't attempt to transfer the soul or the consciousness (of a Consult member, for example) from an existing vessel to your construct, since I assume this can be done by sorcery alone and would leave some sign. So if you are content to use the same hardwired, sexual control mechanisms the Consult uses, to control the actions of your skin-sorcerer, then you have achieved your object. However, if you want to have first-hand involvement, as a member of the Consult top management, you have to find a way of transferring the soul/consciousness into the vessel without leaving a sorcerous trace. Cishaurim sorcery, anyone? The Cishaurim and the Consult are enemies. Why? I assume Consult infiltration, in a bid to gain the Psukhe for the reason above. If Moenghus was with the Cishaurim at the time, it is possible he was responsible for the detection of the intruder/s, so this whole Cishaurim/Consult business would be explained . . . As to the Cishaurim/Scarlet Spires enmity . . . well, let us say I suspect the Consult may be meddling in the affairs of the Schools the same way they are interfering in the business of the Courts . . . Also, it's probable that, knowing the Consult is increasing its activity in the Three Seas as a prelude to the Apocalypse, Moenghus decided to engineer the Holy War, basically deceiving the Consult in thinking [i:1zmzp2az]they[/i:1zmzp2az] could use/control it, and at the same time he could have ordered the assassination of Sasheoka as a way of getting the Scarlet Spires to Shimeh, expecting them to suffer some sort of epiphany in the meantime, so as to have them effectively (as the largest School in the Three Seas) on [i:1zmzp2az]his[/i:1zmzp2az] side by the time the Apocalypse starts. Comments welcome! view post

posted 25 May 2005, 18:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="anor277":p9gism95]The notion that the Consult are trying to wrest the Psukhe from the Cishaurim (or that they are frightened by it) is a good one. It does not necessarily follow that they have created Psukhe wielding skin spies; if so it is equally likely that they have created Anagogic or Gnostic wielding skin spies - i.e. spies who could take the place of Eleäzaras, Achamian, or the Mandate elders (a potentially disastrous situation for the rest of the Three Seas and not really fair in terms of plot development). Until I see evidence otherwise I continue to believe that the skin spies are non sorcerous creatures.[/quote:p9gism95] You have been misreading my posts. I never said they have [i:p9gism95]skin-spies[/i:p9gism95] who use the Psukhe. I didn't even say the skin-spies we see in the books can use sorcery at all. What I'm saying is that the Consult can use the Tekne to create some sort of creature that is not at all manufactured by sorcery, but can use it like any god-born sorcerer (which is what the Consult Synthese is, but with the flaw that the Inchoroi's soul/consciousness was bound to this shell by using the Gnosis, i.e. by marking it in a way that is not very useful for infiltration since any Gnostic/Anagogic sorcerer would immediately recognize it for what it is). It's basically a creature whose purpose would be to infiltrate the Schools the same way the skin-spies infiltrate the courts and the Holy War. This is entirely possible: i.e. you make a skin-spy analogue, whose genetic makeup allows it to use sorcery, you teach it the Gnosis or the Anagogis, you abduct a real sorcerer and have the skin-sorcerer take its place. The other part of my argument was that if any member of the Consult, such as the Inchoroi Old Father wanted to inhabit this shell, and infiltrate a sorcerous school, he'd have to find a way of imbuing the Shell with his soul using some sorcery the Schools cannot see. This is where the Psukhe comes in, as a tool for allowing the Consult Elders to be more involved in the spying/manipulation of the Schools, without having to rely on the unreliable skin-spies (who are certainly fallible, and can be used to gain information on the Consult by Kellhus or whoever.) So to recap, as Scott has said, it's always the genetic makeup that determines if you can use sorcery, not the theoretical knowledge you may have of sorcerous Cants. If the Inchoroi are now sorcerers it means they have made empty shells (using the Tekne) with the genetic makeup necessary for them to apply the sorcerous knowledge they gained from the Nonmen. If they can give intelligence to a creature such as the skin-spy, they can give it to some other creature that is genetically predisposed to work sorcery, and they can use the usual controls to compel it to do their bidding. Even with such tools they'd be able to infiltrate the Schools. But if they want to act directly, instead of skulking in the shadows, like the Consult Synthese, they have to use the Psukhe to get bound into such a creature, and if they had the Psukhe they could never be recognized by Gnostic/Anagogic sorcerers for what they are. Then again, regardless of whether this can/will happen in the books, if they tried to infiltrate the Cishaurim using such a creature, to learn the Psukhe, this would explain why they are trying to destroy them now: they were probably discovered by Moenghus, the same way Kellhus was immediately aware Skeaos was not in fact a human being. So if they now cannot count on gaining the Psukhe through subterfuge, they are trying to destroy the Cishaurim so no one knows its secrets, minimize risks, and possibly have a chance of extracting it through torture once the Holy War or the Scarlet Spires get their hands on some Cishaurim. If you don't think the Consult can use the Tekne to create such creatures, explain to me why are the Inchoroi now capable of working sorcery, when Scott has said they definitely could not as of the Cuno-Inchoroi wars, that happened hundreds of years before men first came to Earwa, i.e. many thousands of years [i:p9gism95]after[/i:p9gism95] the Inchoroi first arrived on Earwa (if they too have a natural predisposition to sorcery, you'd expect they'd have discovered it in a couple of thousand years); or what is the nature of the No-God (who uses some kind of sorcery as well, and whose creation/resurrection is, according to Achamian, strictly connected to the Tekne knowledge of the Consult). view post

posted 25 May 2005, 19:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSchools by White Lord, Subdidact

I'd put their number somewhere around 50/60 sorcerers. I wonder why their numbers are not greater. After all, if you consider they possess the coveted Gnosis, many sorcerer-candidates would give anything to join the Mandate. Perhaps they fear the Dreams or the mockery of their peers, although that is little enough reason compared to the typical power-hunger in your average human. view post

posted 25 May 2005, 21:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="anor277":zoabihk2]It's very hard to talk with confidence about sorcery when this is entirely a product of imagination.[/quote:zoabihk2] That's not exactly so. If sorcery in the books were based entirely on spur-of-the-moment decisions of the author, I'd lose all respect for both the books and the system of sorcery they represent. This is not the case here. There [i:zoabihk2]are[/i:zoabihk2] definite rules, some of which we know from the books, some which Scott has been good enough to contribute on this board. We don't know all the rules, we don't have a complete understanding on their metaphysics, but we know enough to make educated guesses. One of the definite things we know is that sorcery is not connected to the soul or spirit or whatever intangible quality you care to think up. Sorcery is based on genetics, it is encoded in the [i:zoabihk2]body[/i:zoabihk2]. The body is the indispensable hardware, and without it the software (the sorcerous knowledge of the adept) will simply [i:zoabihk2]not work[/i:zoabihk2]. But [i:zoabihk2]any[/i:zoabihk2] intelligence whatsoever [i:zoabihk2]will[/i:zoabihk2] work sorcery if it is properly fitted in the body that is genetically programmed for sorcery. Now, before the Inchoroi came, there was little the Nonmen or Men could do to somehow custom-build bodies with this necessary genetic makeup (although they could practice selective breeding if they were aware of the hereditary traits, but by no means pump out thousands of sorcerers). They simply didn't have the knowledge and the tools the Inchoroi had available, or that we have available in the real world for that matter. All I have said is proved by the books and what Scott has said here. He has also said the Inchoroi were not sorcerers when they first came to Earwa. Now they are. The only conclusion you can logically reach is that they practiced genetic manipulation on themselves. This is also a fact. They "birthed mouths" to communicate with the Nonmen. The Consult Synthese thinks back to the time "they could be described as a race. Genera. Species." This is the clearest indication they have radically modified their bodies. [quote="anor277":zoabihk2]You argue that the Consult [i:zoabihk2]could[/i:zoabihk2] produce made to measure constructs with the ability to use sorcery and so it could be anyone, any master of a school, any individual sorceror who might be an agent of the Consult. How can we judge the motives of Eleäzaras or Achamian or Moenghus (or soon even Kellhus) when for all we know the Consult turned him off the night before and replaced him a specially constructed creature? In that case all speculation is pointless and I would be disappointed with the internal logic of the novels (and perhaps I will be).[/quote:zoabihk2] Hell, I'm not saying you'll find armies of the creatures throughout the schools. I don't even know how hard or time-consuming a process it is to create these creatures in the first place. I just state that the Consult has the knowledge and the means to do something like this, and that they have positively done so with regard to the Inchoroi. I can meet you halfway and say that for whatever reason the Consult have decided not to escalate the situation or to flood the Three Seas with both skin-spies or fake sorcerers. For one it would maximize the risk of exposure if they did; then there is also the internal mechanics of the Consult to consider, the balance of power of the probable factions inside it. All this could make them wait or hesitate to use this new weapon. [quote="anor277":zoabihk2]As to why the Consult can't create such creatures who use sorcery but could be exact replicas of whomever or whatever the answer is , "I don't know", and I am not going to find out why or why not by asking the author. The Consult are powerful, but if they are that powerful they are well nigh omnipotent.[/quote:zoabihk2] As I say, knowledge on something doesn't necessarily make it practicable, for whatever reason, or in great numbers. Your saying "I don't know" is not very impressive, you know, you simply decide not to put what you know in some sort of logical framework and that's just sloppy IMO. I'm not trying to sound confrontational but I ask you to follow my reasoning and try to find something that is [i:zoabihk2]not[/i:zoabihk2] accounted by what we positively know from the books or the board. No need to ask Scott things he can't tell us. All we have to do is use the knowledge we already have. The way the books are written lends itself particularly to extrapolating things from the little we know. I think I've proven it many times, and have had it confirmed by Scott on most. The wisest thing, IMO, is to wait for some more comments from others, to see what the consensus seems to be . . . view post

posted 25 May 2005, 21:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="diarmuid":27mgd52p]i have followed this and other arguments on this board and find your logic flawless White Lord at least here.... and I don't think I will ever get to the point of arguing the reveleations contained in books or board but perhaps your interpretations thereof..... :D[/quote:27mgd52p] I'd like to know where you don't find my logic flawless . . . :x :wink: :) view post

posted 25 May 2005, 22:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

Hell, I was being ironic, if you look at the smilies in the post you can see I'm joking . . . :) And I'm glad I'm being of some service to you . . . view post

posted 28 May 2005, 16:05 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1n6e0u0d][quote:1n6e0u0d]3. From your comments about Inchoroi responsibility for the immortality of the Nonmen, and their brains that decay after five human lifetimes, is it right then that their original lifespan was confined to about 400 years? [/quote:1n6e0u0d] I don't have anything defiinite, but 400 hundred years has been what I've thought... How did you know that?[/quote:1n6e0u0d] Well, from a few things you said here on the board. I assume the Inchoroi used the Tekne on the Nonmen, arrested cellular decay somehow. Now, the fact that their brains melt down after five human lifetimes could mean that the Inchoroi purposefully left out the brain, to cripple their enemies, so say 5x80 would yield 400 years as a natural Cunuroi lifespan. On the other hand the Inchoroi could have included the brain too, so the causes could be "metaphysical", i.e. that the soul, the consciousness or whatever, also has its "natural" lifespan of 400 years, so that even with a brain phisically intact this condition the Nonmen suffer would emerge. I can guess the surprise after they first noticed it. No wonder they exterminated the Inchoroi. :) But who is really guilty here? I assume the Nonmen were asking for it . . . view post

posted 28 May 2005, 16:05 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":25x7n7cz]It's [i:25x7n7cz]Cu'jara Cinmoi's[/i:25x7n7cz] fault, actually, but I'll leave that for TTT... :wink:[/quote:25x7n7cz] :lol: :D view post

posted 28 May 2005, 23:05 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

Just a quick question: Do the Nonmen share Men's prejudices against sorcerers? The impression I got is that they were/are deeply involved in the governing structures of the Cunuroi, so the opposite could well be true for them. Anything to this? Thanks! :) view post

posted 30 May 2005, 14:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="bovine_buddha":38yqmxg5]On to my scepticism however. As Bakker has stated, the ability to do sorcery stems from the body, being one of the few, coupled with an intelligence to unlock it. These genes are sometimes found in humans. What is incertain however is if these genes could be copied by the Tekne. We do not know if skin-spies in fact HAVE genes in the first place.[/quote:38yqmxg5] Well, since we more or less established that the Inchoroi did something with the Tekne to become sorcerers, we can assume that these genes can in fact be isolated and manipulated using the Tekne. We also don't know how advanced the Tekne is compared to our real-world know-how, but since the Inchoroi were star-farers, I'd say it was very much more advanced, so I don't see any great obstacles for the Inchoroi if they wanted to do something like this, only some time delay to do research, after all, it took them thousands of years to assemble the No-God, but they did it in the end. [quote="bovine_buddha":38yqmxg5]They do not have faces, but some form of mutable and permeable octopus instead. Maybe they are not a variety of humans, and maybe not even based on humans, but simply constructed to look/feel/smell/whatever like one of them.[/quote:38yqmxg5] No one ever said they were humans, or even remotely connected with humans, aside from their outward appearance. They could be almost anything, built from animal and vegetable genes, to a precise set of specifications and for several purposes. As I see it, they're not only spies, but also very efficient warriors. [quote="bovine_buddha":38yqmxg5]And since we further don't know (at least I don't) if Bakker envisions his world built on the same principles as ours, with genes, DNA and so forth, we do not know if it would be possible to transplant genes in the same way as it is (mostly theoretically) possible in our world, since this is Fantasy after all.[/quote:38yqmxg5] Well, if he doesn't conceive his world as built on DNA, I don't know on what else he could. It doesn't matter that we are talking about a fantasy setting, it doesn't in any way discount the existence of DNA, and the presence of the Tekne speaks very much against our assuming DNA is not present in the equation. Our own world of a few thousands of years ago was also, in many ways, a fantasy world, albeit with the absence of magic, but this didn't make DNA absent, evolution nul or whatever. On the whole I don't think we have to look for any out-there explanations on how the Tekne works, the mere mention of "genes" by Bakker on several occasions should be enough to validate DNA manipulation by the Inchoroi. [quote="bovine_buddha":38yqmxg5]Furthermore, the ability to do sorcery also stems from the intelligence/artistry/wisdom of the wielder. What is to say that the intellect of a human is in any way remotely like that of a skin spy?[/quote:38yqmxg5] Nothing. But I don't think we can assume a skin-spy's intellect will be any less developed or versatile. Simply because a skin-spy is conditioned to immediate and utter obedience to any Consult member does not mean that in any field where it is expected to excel it will not do so. [quote="bovine_buddha":38yqmxg5]Perhaps they lack intuition, and can like automatons only do what has been hardwired into them, improvisation being something beyond them, and perhaps likewise for sorcery.[/quote:38yqmxg5] I'd think they are capable of improvisation. If you follow the skin-spies' activities throughout TWP you can see they basically have a good deal of autonomy, with only broad objectives set by the Consult as guidelines. Only when they fail, mainly due to Kellhus, does the Synthese intervene. [quote="bovine_buddha":38yqmxg5]So as a final note, even if everything White Lord has said is true, and while I also believe that the Consult could perhaps create skin spies with sorcerous powers, I am not sure it is possible. Our information from Bakker is not enough to put a final verdict here IMHO.[/quote:38yqmxg5] The only way this could be impracticable is how long it takes to grow a skin-spy, or any other creature of the Consult. If they can create them full-grown in a vat, it'd be much easier to field them in numbers, but perhaps the Consult have internal disagreements, or for whatever reason choose not to. If they have to grow and reproduce naturally from an initial couple then it could be an issue of time, and of course when the things have been developed in the first place. I'm sure there could be many other reasons for them not using them, or not in large numbers; hell from what we know, there's not more than a score of skin-spies in the whole Holy War, which is composed of hundreds of thousands. It makes you think . . . [quote="bovine_buddha":38yqmxg5]And, I believe it would be simpler to seduce a Mandate schoolman than try to kill him (=hard) and then replace him (probably everyone would see the difference in the characters manners anyway, schoolmen being so aloof/strange/tormented/weird).[/quote:38yqmxg5] Well, I'd think seducing a Mandati would be a lot harder than any sorcerer from another School. As to killing him, well, for the Consult at least, which probably knows more about the Gnosis than the Mandate in the first place, it would be easier, if we are contemplating substitution. As to your comment about sorcerers' manners, we don't know enough of internal School mechanics to know how they act or if they are any different from normal humans in most ways, and judging by Achamian, they are in fact not so very different in many respects. view post

posted 30 May 2005, 14:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerwe/Esmenet as Mary Magdalen? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Tattooed Hand":3r1y180n]OK, so all the representations we have of Mary Magdalene draw from mythological archetypes. Fine. But the pairing of archetypes in Bakker's books, creates a particular resonance - a possibly prophetic Kelhus, a redeemed whore, the circumfix as punishment that then becomes the symbol of the creed of the prophet risen from it... this is no accident. Not every whore resonates with MM, but one framed in all these ways sure does. That's all I really mean. They are not the SAME person because we are not reading a rendition of the Jesus story. The Redeemed Whore archetype is another story, a nonprophetic version of this is the representation of Justinian's wife, Theodora, who was an actress/dancer in her youth. She returns to the religious fold, becomes reformed and meets the not yet emporer... Most historical accounts indicate that her relationship with Justininian was based on mutual respect and shared intellect, as well as emotions.[/quote:3r1y180n] This is much my own thinking. There are many layers to the story, and to the characters. These symbols are here to give us a possible point of congruence with real-world historical/religious facts/beliefs, only to be reinterpreted by Scott as his story progresses. view post

posted 30 May 2005, 16:05 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":35nobpnn]Damn. I'd love to be a bear now and just hibernate until January 2006.[/quote:35nobpnn] I know just what you mean . . . :) view post

posted 30 May 2005, 16:05 in The Warrior ProphetDoes Akka waver?Where was he at the End? by White Lord, Subdidact

Well, I think the change in his character [i:1wqcowzt]will[/i:1wqcowzt] happen, but in the course of TTT. There are many hints. First of all Kellhus saying that Achamian was stronger than anyone thought, first of all Achamian himself. Then you also have those tantalizing quotes at the beginning of each chapter. One of them is of Achamian's post-Holy War narrative, where he says he, along with many others, killed their fat lot of heathens, though they were not with the Holy War for reasons of faith. I expect that, if Achamian decides to teach Kellhus sorcery, they could [i:1wqcowzt]both[/i:1wqcowzt] start using it against the enemies of the Holy War. As for your objection that he should have hunted down Eleazaras and the others, well that's not very realistic. He's powerful, yes, but not omnipotent; there were simply too many Scarlet Schoolmen around for him to do anything, if he wanted to avoid being overpowered a second time. Also I don't think he had enough time to absorb the blow of Esmenet's "betrayal", as well as Kellhus's manipulations. That begins to change at the end of TWP, but of course there's no space to show it at that point. That's why I say we'll see Achamian's change in TTT. view post

posted 30 May 2005, 16:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtLike father like son? by White Lord, Subdidact

I'm just inserting something that's occurred to me. All this speculation is very interesting, and for all we know accurate, but has no one ever thought that another dimension may also be at work? Sorcery exists as a fact in Earwa. The gods, or the God, are also venerated, and several things tend to point to their actual existence. One of the more important points of TWP, and I guess TTT is whether Kellhus is truly a prophet. Then you also have this ciclicity of Apocalypse, with the line of Anasurimbor that alone can lead humanity against the No-God. There are many indications that the god/s themselves may be directing the "Great Game" to some extent. This is most pronounced in Kellhus, who seems to think he's master of his own actions, and yet their result is often contrary to his wishes, but strangely enough [i:9fe8gbmw]not[/i:9fe8gbmw] against what we would consider positive for the "good guys". So what I'm saying is that, personal convictions regarding motivation aside, Maithanet may have been divinely "moved" to adopt a certain course of action, just like Kellhus seems more and more to do as the plot in TWP advances, although, in both cases, inadvertently, and in order to further the cause of the God/s (if he/they [i:9fe8gbmw]are[/i:9fe8gbmw] taking a hand, that is . . . :)). view post

posted 30 May 2005, 17:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

That's very sound reasoning, Cain. The only thing that's problematic would be the capability of the Consult to interfere with the Dreams. This because we know nothing of the workings of Seswatha's Heart. At some point I started believing that Seswatha may still be "alive" (if you can call it that) somewhere in the Outside, and that the Dreams are much more than simple dreams. There is also the fact, as shown by Achamian, that Seswatha has a great deal of [i:3je446z4]actual control[/i:3je446z4] over the actions of the Mandati under certain conditions. view post

posted 30 May 2005, 23:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

Just a few quick comments . . . It's close to my bed time (;)) so my brain is unreliable and I'd say one huge post a day is enough. :) [quote="bovine_buddha":1kavwrzv]Once again I agree with your opinions, White Lord, and your reasoning, but I don't think them absolute :D I think the best we can do in this case is some kind of guesstimation.[/quote:1kavwrzv] I agree. I'm not prepared to wager a limb on this theory, but I still hold it is theoretically possible, even if it's not exploited in the books. [quote="bovine_buddha":1kavwrzv]I don't fully agree with your reasoning that skin-spies are programmed to blindly follow Consult-orders (I think that the second Sarcellus intent of murdering Kellhus was in fact to cover up his predecessors supposed betrayal, protecting his own hide, though that is just my interpretation)[/quote:1kavwrzv] My reasoning states they have to obey certain imperatives which are imprinted in their bodies at the genetic level (to quote Sarcellus "obedience to the Maker, the Architect, is absolute", just observe his behaviour in the Synthese's presence) but in most cases, where a free hand is the best solution, they have a wide degree of authonomy, which is what we also see in the skin-spies' behavior when the Synthese is absent. [quote="bovine_buddha":1kavwrzv]3. As Bakker himself has noted, TTT will contain more information about the Mark. Perhaps it is that every sorceror possesses an unique mark that is not reproducible. In this way it would be impossible to replace a sorceror since all his peers would immediately see him as a fraud, entirely blowing the Consult's cover. I just though about this theory, and find it quite likely. Gotta go scan the books to find some info about the Mark. :P[/quote:1kavwrzv] This is possible, I agree, but will have to wait some time for TTT to prove . . . [quote="bovine_buddha":1kavwrzv]If it would be possible to create sorcery-capable skin-spies, the Consult could just have a bunch of them ready to replace sorcerors unfortunate enough to die a faceless death. And Zap!, the Consult secretly controls the schools of the South. Obviously something prevents them from doing this brilliant move, Which of the one above, or if there is another reason, or if Bakker simply didn't think of this possibility, is unknown to me, so it's everyone's guess for now.[/quote:1kavwrzv] It may be that it's simply overkill. You don't see thousands of skin-spies in the Holy War. Obviously their present (small) numbers are sufficient for the Consult's purpose. Remember that the whole Holy War can be viewed as a (rather small-scale) precursor of the Apocalypse. As the Synthese says by end of TWP the big picture is the Apocalypse, not the Holy War, and that's some 20 years down the road. Who knows when they might decide to put some plans in action . . . [quote="bovine_buddha":1kavwrzv]But seriously, I think there are some limits to what the Tekne can in fact do in Bakker's world, as there are limits to what our technology can do in our world. And we don't know the Inchoroi came from the stars, or in which way, or in fact not much at all, or how their "technology" works.[/quote:1kavwrzv] They [i:1kavwrzv]did[/i:1kavwrzv] come from the stars, in a starship. This is stated clearly by the end of TWP. In fact Golgotterath is the crash site of this starship, and I assume the Inchoroi were so eager to regain it through the School of Mangaecca because all the advanced instruments for Tekne work are concentrated in the remains of the ship. [quote="bovine_buddha":1kavwrzv]By the by, sure, the Inchoroi created the No-God using the Tekne, scary creation and all, but in the description of the No-God his Carapace is a nimil Sarcophagus (who is buried within I wonder?) with choric (chorae, Aporos-connected?) inscription, which implies that the renegade Non-Men probably had something to do with that concoction as well.[/quote:1kavwrzv] Yes, I already mentioned this in another thread. To my mind the No-God is the result of the melding of Tekne and Aporos/Quya sorcery. [quote="bovine_buddha":1kavwrzv]About Seswatha's Heart, is it ever explained what it really is? Is it his literal heart buried somewhere, or the source of his power conserved by some strange ritual?[/quote:1kavwrzv] We know only what it's called, nothing more. This will change in TTT. [quote="bovine_buddha":1kavwrzv]I remember Seswatha's crucifixion at the hands of Merekeretrig (Cunoroi perhaps?) was briefly described in PoN.[/quote:1kavwrzv] Mekeritrig is the Mantraitor mentioned by Achamian. Incidentally, he's also the Nonman Kellhus fights in the Prologue of TDtCB. Obviously Seswatha survived this crucifixion, since he founded the Mandate after the Apocalypse's end. [quote="bovine_buddha":1kavwrzv]Well, anyway, now I'm off to Spain for a week, so I won't be seeing any reply for a while... But keep em coming![/quote:1kavwrzv] Have fun! :) Though I have to say I don't like Spain that much. ;) I prefer Greece or Southern Italy, but even more my own country's (Croatia) sea-coast (you could say I'm prejudiced :)). view post

Re: On Seswatha posted 31 May 2005, 04:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cain the Wicked":2r2xapu2]Now, when a Madati touches the focus, a conduit is created from the Outside to the soul/being of the sorcerer, linking him to Seswatha. Think of many rivers feeding into a giant estuary.[/quote:2r2xapu2] It'd be better to say Seswatha is a giant river that has as many branches as there are sorcerers connected to him. By the way, I should mention that I have it from Scott that you don't have to be a sorcerer to be affected by the Heart, so the potential number of "acolytes" could be very large. Anyway, I don't think it was anything Seswatha did to "survive" in the Outside, it's rather a privilege that was granted him by the so-called (by the Nonmen) "agencies" that inhabit the Outside, i.e. the gods of men; probably to continue his fight against the Consult, and give some material help to his successors. This brings up questions such as reincarnation, predestination etc., which we should be finding out about in TTT to some extent. Anyway I suggest reading the following threads in the Q&A section: "A Conception of Virtue" and "On Inrithism" for some idea of what life after death is like in Earwa (as interpreted by religious and philosophical thinkers). Here's also an interesting quote from TDtCB that can be applied to Seswatha (or Celmomas and Kellhus for that matter): [i:2r2xapu2]These men were more than human, they were Kahiht, World Souls, locked in the great wheel of great events.[/i:2r2xapu2] I'd very much like to know if it's possible that Kellhus is the reincarnation of Celmomas or any great ancestor for that matter; or whether, if you still "live" in the Outside, by the mercy of some agency, you can be summoned back into the world by sorcery, along the lines of what Iyokus did with the demon in TWP. view post

posted 31 May 2005, 16:05 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

I lent my books to a friend a while ago so I quoted from memory. If I remember correctly, you should find it at the very end of TDtCB, the part where Esmenet observes Zin, Kellhus and the others, while waiting for Achamian. Let me know if you find it . . . after all, I could just be misremembering. Otherwise, it's an interesting point to speculate about, this possibility of certain souls born and reborn to affect the world (shades of WoT) . . . view post

posted 31 May 2005, 16:05 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Dark Wraith":2opkrybt]Hi Scott, what can u say about the prophet Fane? Did he sanction the idea of the White Jihad?[/quote:2opkrybt] Interesting question (which I fully endorse), though if I had to guess, this is something we learn of in the Appendices to TTT . . . :) Also adding some more questions that have occurred to me in the meantime: 1. You said a while back that many Nonmen roam the Three Seas in search of trauma. I assume, then, that many (if not all) are present within the Holy War. Anything to this? 2. A question about gunpowder. Did you ever contemplate this evolution in Earwan warfare? I have mixed feelings about this, though I'd rather not see the jump in quality. To some extent sorcery is a fitting substitute for gunpowder. So what is your thinking on the matter? Thanks a lot! (Again . . . :)) view post

posted 01 Jun 2005, 04:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="H":2182lhwo]I don't know that there is a meaning of predestination, or of rebirth though, just seems more a term of being the center, and the guiding force, of events.[/quote:2182lhwo] Well, there is a great degree of predestination in the line of Anasurimbor. Things are very similar now to the situation at the time of the First Apocalypse, and I think we'll find those people could have some role to play in the story, whether they are reincarnated or adopt a more Seswatha-like approach. [quote="H":2182lhwo]Interesting though, that Scott would use a term so similar in meaning to ta'veren in a sentance with "great wheel of great events." Scott has said he read WoT, maybe a little priming there? :lol:[/quote:2182lhwo] :D [quote="Cain The Wicked":2182lhwo]I don't think that they'd be reincarnations, persay. Reaggregation may be the better word. Reincarnation implies an eventual awakening of the former soul, and a recognition of who and what you were before.[/quote:2182lhwo] It depends whether the soul and the consciousness (specific set of memories) are inextricably tied together. It could be possible to reincarnate a soul without the memories. I'm not too clear on how this whole thing works, too little info on the subject. Still, Scott said that there are three paths for the soul: Oblivion = Death (but death of what? Unlikely it's the soul, more likely the personality/memories); Redemption = Life in the Outside (the soul retains the personality/memories; you live as an incorporeal entity, you don't lose the sentience you had in the physical world); and Damnation = more or less the same thing as redemption, but instead of a reward you get endless suffering. If you reincarnate a soul without the memories, but with the inherent "gifts" of that soul, you get more or less what I was driving at, especially if you're then acting under divine protection and guidance. That the consciousness is somehow connected to the soul is proved by a passage in TDtCB: In the scene where Inrau dies at the Synthese's hands we have the following (more or less, going from memory here): "He could see the scars (or burns?) where sorcery was used to bind the soul to the shell . . ." Obviously the Synthese has his Inchoroi memories and abilities because the soul was bound to the bird-man shell. So what I ask is whether a sorcerer powerful enough could pluck out from the Outside one of these redeemed souls and bind them into some shell. It is theoretically possible, unless some god interferes, but as Kellhus would say, "any mystery can be killed, if you have the power . . ." ;) Some interesting speculations (though, for some reason, I don't think we'll see much of this in the books :)). view post

posted 01 Jun 2005, 15:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe agenda of the skin spies and the Consult by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Tattooed Hand":2odhqxfq]As far as I remember, the Anasurimbor prophecy only says that an Anasurimbor will return again, but not what the Anasurimbor will do. That doesn't mean that an Anasurimbor will necessarily be the good guys, or the only one that can stop the Consult.[/quote:2odhqxfq] Yes but do you really believe he will turn to the Consult, or that he will not in fact be a "savior"? Then, if he [i:2odhqxfq]is[/i:2odhqxfq] a real prophet (whatever that implies) I can see him only improving, as far as his love of humanity goes. [quote="Tattooed Hand":2odhqxfq]Besides, Celomas (name butchering here, I don't have my books and my memory is not as good as WL's) didn't do so hot against the Consult.[/quote:2odhqxfq] Well, when I say the present is in many ways similar to the First Apocalypse I mean that in the First Apocalypse you had Celmomas and his son (both remarkable people) and it's clear that what was expected of them then is expected of Kellhus (and his father; or of Kellhus and [i:2odhqxfq]his[/i:2odhqxfq] son?) today, just that something went wrong. If you will, you can consider Kellhus's role in the present as a sort of "second chance". (I don't doubt Celmomas and his son, after their death have been rewarded with life in the Outside, at least for trying, if not succeeding. Remember, before he dies, Celmomas "speaks" with his son, even if he is dead . . .). In short, just as today it is entirely possible for Kellhus to win against the Consult it was possible for Celmomas, perhaps even more, since now the Consult has had 2000 more years of planning and preparation. Ultimately I think the clue to Celmomas's failure can be found in his own prophetic words. When he asks Seswatha's forgiveness, saying "I've been such a bitter old fool, and to you, old friend, have I been most unjust . . .", this implies that Celmomas didn't appreciate the importance of sorcery from the very beginning. I think both he and his son were of the Few, but that Celmomas didn't want to learn sorcery, or use it, while his son did. Seswatha probably taught Celmomas's son the Gnosis, and the son did something rash and died, hence the earlier estrangement of Celmomas and Seswatha. There are very few details on the Ancient North in the books, but I guess we can say with some certainty that it was, at the time of the Apocalypse, a very divided place. I think the Schools of the North refused to help at first, so many important battles were lost needlessly. Remember Achamian's dream of the Fords of Tywanrae, where the Akksersian army loses huge numbers to Consult sorcerers because they had not one sorcerer of their own . . . [quote="Tattooed Hand":2odhqxfq]But I wonder if this is an imprint of the dreams - all the torture Seswatha has undergone rendering any torture a Mandati undergoes less effective - or if there is an active princicple of Seswatha that actually intervenes at those moments. I think that the thing passing for Skeaos' reaction is indicative here, the thing actually seemed to see Seswatha in Akka. Why? And, if they are not sorcerous creatures, how?[/quote:2odhqxfq] It could mean that a part of Seswatha is reincarnated in every Mandate Schoolman. There's mention in the books of Seswatha's "trace" within every Mandati . . . If I'm not mistaken somewhere Achamian says that Seswatha "reincarnated his memories in his disciples", so it could mean his memories never left the material world, and that the Heart is the link to his disembodied soul. So long as the link works, his memories are accessible to other Mandati, but so are his ideas, so is his will, (if he wants to give them, and which he can exert on others when he wants or needs to). In short, Seswatha truly [i:2odhqxfq]is[/i:2odhqxfq] alive, but part of his being is in the one place that insures immortality, while the other is in Earwa. As to Skeaos, who knows . . . Many things are possible, it could be a gift of the Tekne, that he is attuned to recognize sorcerers in general, Seswatha in particular (or his disciples). After all, we know Seswatha had been captured by the Consult for some time, who knows what they did to him or had from him during this captivity. view post

Re: Signs of PoN Addiction posted 02 Jun 2005, 18:06 in Author Q & ASigns of PoN Addiction by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Quinthane":2qovfb9o]Now, with this new arrival, the disease has gained a new host, more powerful and persuassive than any before it.[/quote:2qovfb9o] Does this apply to me? :) [quote="Quinthane":2qovfb9o]1) [b:2qovfb9o]Do you now drink wine from a bowl instead of a glass?[/b:2qovfb9o][/quote:2qovfb9o] I've never been partial to wine . . . but if I ever take to drinking it, it'll definitely be from a bowl . . . :) [quote="Quinthane":2qovfb9o]2) [b:2qovfb9o]Does never again having a good night's sleep seem like a steal for the Gnosis at twice the price? [/b:2qovfb9o][/quote:2qovfb9o] I prefer the Psukhe, but since I can't blind myself until I get my hands on the two requisite serpents, I suffer greatly . . . :) [quote="Quinthane":2qovfb9o]3) [b:2qovfb9o]Are any of your pets now named Anasurimbor _______? [/b:2qovfb9o][/quote:2qovfb9o] Not yet . . . :) [quote="Quinthane":2qovfb9o]4)[b:2qovfb9o] Have you ever said or thought "Knock it off, White Lord!" fearing that answering an abundance of questions is time spent not writing? [/b:2qovfb9o][/quote:2qovfb9o] Sometimes, but I can't help myself . . . :) [quote="Quinthane":2qovfb9o]10) [b:2qovfb9o]Are you now eager for White Lord to start his own message board with a Q & A thread so you can bone up?[/b:2qovfb9o][/quote:2qovfb9o] I don't know how well that would work . . . Unlike Scott I think I'd fold under the pressure . . . :) [quote="Quinthane":2qovfb9o]14)[b:2qovfb9o] Have you atempted using the Probability Trance to find the shortest path to TTT's pub date? [/b:2qovfb9o][/quote:2qovfb9o] I always use the Trance, especially when I think up my questions, or cook up my theories . . . :lol: view post

posted 04 Jun 2005, 22:06 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeUS Trade Paperback Cover by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Murrin":3qzieeay]When I saw that cover, the first word to enter my head was not 'striking' or 'mystical' or anything like that - it was 'tacky'.[/quote:3qzieeay] As opposed to the non-tackiness of the one you seem to prefer? :) Oh well, as they say, [i:3qzieeay]de gustibus non est disputandum[/i:3qzieeay] . . . view post

posted 04 Jun 2005, 22:06 in The Darkness That Comes Beforesranc by White Lord, Subdidact

Well, to my mind, the Sranc are nothing more than cannon fodder, and certainly not endowed with any supernatural power/origin. They are an artificial race, and if my guess is correct, they are the equivalent of Tolkien's orcs, in that, as the Orcs are derived from Elves, so are the Sranc derived from Nonmen twisted by the Tekne (Inchoroi/Consult fleshcraft). view post

posted 05 Jun 2005, 01:06 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeUS Trade Paperback Cover by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Murrin":2tx5vr0i]Heh, IMO yeah, but everyone has their own taste. I just tend to think the people who pick british book covers have more of it than most. :wink:[/quote:2tx5vr0i] :lol: Well, to be perfectly honest, I don't much care about the book covers. They are obviously the product of what the marketing people think will attract the most buyers in different markets, and as such have nothing to do with the book's quality. I have to say, though, that the French cover is [i:2tx5vr0i]atrocious[/i:2tx5vr0i] and I don't know how it's to promote book sales . . . :) view post

posted 06 Jun 2005, 10:06 in Author Q & AWhich works of literature inspired you? by White Lord, Subdidact

I don't know if you've already read [url=]this interview[/url:3gqju289], but if you do you'll get at least a partial answer to your question. view post

posted 06 Jun 2005, 13:06 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":wtvzgods]Nonmen don't tend to survive long in the South. Remember, the Tusk calls for their extermination as well.[/quote:wtvzgods] Well, actually, I didn't know any such thing until now :), but I've had some suspicions that the [i:wtvzgods]Inchoroi[/i:wtvzgods] may have been, to some extent, the [i:wtvzgods]authors[/i:wtvzgods] of the Tusk, so this injunction would not surprise me. :) view post

posted 06 Jun 2005, 13:06 in Author Q & ASigns of PoN Addiction by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":321w8j2b]Never, ever, to his face. :wink:[/quote:321w8j2b] :evil: :wink: view post

posted 07 Jun 2005, 05:06 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1ndb9z0y][quote:1ndb9z0y]A question about gunpowder. Did you ever contemplate this evolution in Earwan warfare? I have mixed feelings about this, though I'd rather not see the jump in quality. To some extent sorcery is a fitting substitute for gunpowder. So what is your thinking on the matter? [/quote:1ndb9z0y] Noooooooooooooooooooooooo! :wink:[/quote:1ndb9z0y] :lol: Here's a question: Does Dunyain neuropuncture have some more advanced applications -- ('cause I have some ideas . . . ;)) -- than we've seen in the books thus far? Any needle-wielding Dunyain in the books' future? :) Thanks! :) view post

posted 07 Jun 2005, 06:06 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeOh,Mother! Said Oedipus at Cholonae by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Deerow":brmitr5w] thing I wonder is if Xerius' mother favors Conphas, why not move to secure Conphas as the reigning emporer? She did the same to secure the position for Xerius' III did she not?[/quote:brmitr5w] Yes she did, but there's some doubt whether the Empress Mother is truly human or has been replaced by a skin-spy. If she's a skin-spy, then the agenda changes . . . :) view post

posted 07 Jun 2005, 06:06 in The Warrior ProphetKellhus, Achamiam, and Emotion by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Ka'tar":3u5dunjv]Did anyone else read the book and think "Geez, it is getting harder to swallow that every person he meets is a complete moron in comparison"?[/quote:3u5dunjv] Well, if you have read both books, something must have escaped you, if you think Kellhus's superior talents are "unexplained". It's been stated throughout that the Dunyain are the result of a 2000-year-old experiment in selective breeding; and eugenetics, when ruthlessly and relentlessly applied, will give you both incredible intellectual and physical superiority as opposed to "normal" humans. It's when the "little" details slip through the cracks, that people do themselves the disservice of undervaluing or misinterpreting a book. :) view post

posted 08 Jun 2005, 03:06 in Author Q & AThe Afterlife by White Lord, Subdidact

You should check [url=]this post[/url:3mzseou7] out. view post

posted 09 Jun 2005, 10:06 in Author Q & AChorae issues by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="AleoMagus":1m24lqbt]but again, nullify how?[/quote:1m24lqbt] Chorae affect, i.e. unravel, the sorcerous [i:1m24lqbt]cants[/i:1m24lqbt] that are the cause of, say, a fireball or lightning or any other offensive spell. They wouldn't be able to unravel natural fire or lightning, and sorcerous fire is definitely not natural. This is what happens when you use sorcery directly against a Chorae wielder. If you use it, as you say, to start a chain of events, then Chorae are no use at all. But then again, you should already know this, as it's been shown several times in the books. Chorae do not offer total immunity; if a sorcerer knows how to start these chains of events, he'll be able to harm a Chorae wielder. One of many examples in the books is the scenes after Achamian escapes from the Scarlet Spires in Iothiah. He kills Mamaradda, the Javreh captain by hurling the coals of a brazier against him, later he collapses an entire floor on the heads of Chorae-wielding Javreh. This is all an example of how a sorcerer can make use of natural objects to defeat the Aporetic cants of the Chorae. Another point I should make is the distinctiveness of natural fire, say, and its consequences, from sorcerous fire. If you use sorcery to create fire out of [i:1m24lqbt]nothing[/i:1m24lqbt] then Chorae can defeat all the secondary effects of this fire. If, OTOH, you find natural fire, and use sorcery to magnify it, or manipulate it in any other way, then you can do damage. The same if you encounter, say, the precursors of a tempest and then use sorcery to develop it into a full-blown storm with attendant lightnings and other destructive results . . . view post

posted 09 Jun 2005, 11:06 in Philosophy DiscussionHoly war: the ultimate blasphemy by White Lord, Subdidact

Just a quick comment. While I think war shouldn't always be the first and only solution to the problems that arise when any two or more human groups compete for something, I find those who believe war can be totally eliminated from the stage of human endeavor either incredibly naive or plain stupid! :) As you know, you have to let the steam out at times, if not you risk the explosion that no one really wants. I'm sure I'll add some more comments. I'm waiting to be lynched in the meantime . . . ;) view post

posted 10 Jun 2005, 02:06 in Off-Topic Discussionlost transcript from DTCB recovered by White Lord, Subdidact

You should post more of this . . . :lol: view post

posted 10 Jun 2005, 04:06 in Author Q & AChorae issues by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Entropic_existence":2y7r6wq5]I knew White Lord would come to my rescue with a far better explanation of it than I could, thanks WL![/quote:2y7r6wq5] No problem . . . :) view post

Re: Concerning the Few posted 10 Jun 2005, 05:06 in Author Q & AConcerning the Few by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Esmi":thoto286]1. If a person is one of the few and has children then what are the odds of their children being one of the few?[/quote:thoto286] Sorcery has a genetic basis. Inheritance from parent to offspring is much higher among Nonmen than among Men. Since the Nonmen sorcerers are a caste, and they have no religious proscriptions against sorcery, I suspect this higher yield is connected with some judicious application of selective breeding. [quote="Esmi":thoto286]2. If a person was one of the few but didn't even know it and knew no sorcery would they die from touching a chorae? (I can't help but picture a nobleman letting his baby son play with a chorae only to have him incinerated :shock: )[/quote:thoto286] No. You have to speak a sorcerous Cant, and gain the Mark of sorcery. Only then can Chorae harm you. There are some incantations and cyphers you can speak and still be immune to Chorae, but they are almost useless. [quote="Esmi":thoto286]3. How many chorae are in existence and more importantly who has many of them?[/quote:thoto286] Chorae number in the tens of thousands, and I guess the Consult has the most. [quote="Esmi":thoto286]4. When a sorcorer is described as "seeing" the Mark of sorcery what does it look like to them?[/quote:thoto286] This hasn't been shown in any detail yet. view post

posted 10 Jun 2005, 06:06 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Super Frog":2gaxu60f]Or maybe people who accidently stumbled into Isuhael and had to be dealt with (and why not do so productively)?[/quote:2gaxu60f] I think this is the most likely answer. Actually, I believe Scott has already answered this in some other thread, but I can't seem to find it. Anyway, the issue has come up in another discussion thread, so I'd appreciate any confirmation on this! :) view post

posted 10 Jun 2005, 06:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtXinemus and the Cishaurim by White Lord, Subdidact

Interesting post, Fell. I'm always on the hunt for details from the books that point in the direction of some real-life religious, occult or whatever school of thought. On the Cishaurim, yes. Achamian says that some think the Cishaurim's blindness is essential to their practice of the Psukhe. He also says that all humans have many eyes, "some of which never breach the skin", so your guess about the pineal gland may well be right . . . :) view post

posted 10 Jun 2005, 06:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtXinemus and the Cishaurim by White Lord, Subdidact

On a side note, it's been remarked many times in the books how similar Zin and Achamian are. As similar as twins (both physically and somewhat in character). Now I don't know about you, but this is very suspicious to me. There could actually be some real blood tie between them. Zin could also be one of the Few. Also suspicious is Zin's attachment to Achamian. He despises sorcery but can't help being a sorcerer's friend and asking him questions . . . Would be interested in hearing people's opinions on this . . . :) view post

posted 10 Jun 2005, 06:06 in Author Q & AAs a husband and father... by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Fell":33g12lnf]I don't mean to come off as an asshole, but really… take a look around the world. Nothing Scott can place on page (no offense to his talent as a writer) could ever bring the atrocities of our race to succumb in humility.[/quote:33g12lnf] This mirrors my thinking perfectly. Nothing should stop us from despising war and destruction, but ultimately, there's nothing anyone will ever be able to do about it. Humanity sans war is a utopia, and somehow eliminating the drive towards competition and warfare from humans would transform them into something that could not even [i:33g12lnf]be called[/i:33g12lnf] human anymore. I would also submit to you all that our present state of society is mainly due to very devastating wars that have influenced the development of civilian life, of customs and most importantly of technology. Many things we all take for granted would be impossible without the drive to innovate and compete brought about by bloody conflicts. A lot of rambling, but I'd really like to know what your opinion is on the possibility of eradicating violence from human societies, and how desirable the consequences of that would be . . . view post

posted 10 Jun 2005, 08:06 in Author Q & AAs a husband and father... by White Lord, Subdidact

Thanks for the link! I'll check it out . . . view post

posted 10 Jun 2005, 16:06 in Author Q & AAdvice that works for incredibly successful authors! by White Lord, Subdidact

:lol: :lol: :lol: :D You know, you're probably 100% [i:ro77mf8v]right[/i:ro77mf8v] . . . :) :roll: My advice to you: be an editor. You'll probably go far . . . ;) view post

posted 14 Jun 2005, 08:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNonmen who and what are they? by White Lord, Subdidact

The Nonmen (Cunuroi) are the original (oldest) race of Earwa. Their history goes back more than 15 thousand years. They held one of the races of Man (the Emwama of the Tusk) enslaved for a long time. They also fought a number of wars against the Inchoroi, a race of aliens. In the course of these wars they were victims of Inchoroi bioscience. At some point they became barren (hence their adoption of Men as their "children"). After the overthrow of the Inchoroi they started suffering from the effects of the artificial immortality the Inchoroi had given them (in the form of forgetfulness of the "tamer" emotions/memories). They started feasting on negative emotions, which were the easiest to remember. This is why one of their number (Mekeritrig) revealed the location of the Inchoroi stronghold of Golgotterath to what would become the Consult. (Mekeritrig is the Nonman who fought against Kellhus.) There are some posts by Scott on the Nonmen in the Q&A section. You should check those out as well. view post

posted 14 Jun 2005, 09:06 in Author Q & AHigh Ainon by White Lord, Subdidact

Well, I noticed it too. I believe the Consult could be the "source", but I'm not really sure. Let's see what Scott can tell us about it . . . :) view post

posted 14 Jun 2005, 09:06 in Author Q & AThe importance of being Kellhus by White Lord, Subdidact

I, too, have fallen under Kellhus's spell. I [i:1q29fim7]like[/i:1q29fim7] watching him in action! :) He's described by most members as some sort of sociopath, but I can't help admiring him. Could it mean I'm a latent sociopath myself? :lol: ;) Let me know . . . perhaps I should [i:1q29fim7]really[/i:1q29fim7] be concerned about my mental health . . . :) view post

posted 14 Jun 2005, 12:06 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow Reading... by White Lord, Subdidact

Just finishing Edward Gibbon's [i:3ad6busk]Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire[/i:3ad6busk]. view post

posted 15 Jun 2005, 05:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNonmen who and what are they? by White Lord, Subdidact

Yes, the Inchoroi are space aliens. Golgotterath was built over the crash site of their spaceship. They arrived on Earwa several thousand years before Men crossed the Great Kayarsus. view post

posted 15 Jun 2005, 05:06 in Author Q & AThe importance of being Kellhus by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Entropic_existence":6bmx015r]Besides, my tastes can be warped enough at times that I worry about my mental health so I guess maybe I'll see ya in the psych ward WL![/quote:6bmx015r] :lol: Well, looking forward to our meeting then . . . ;) :) view post

posted 15 Jun 2005, 06:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNonmen who and what are they? by White Lord, Subdidact

I don't have the books by me, but you should check TWP. I think something gets said at the meeting Achamian has with the Great Names in Caraskand. He says the Inchoroi are "the greatest terror ever to fall from the sky" or some such. Then also at the very end of the book, in the scene of Aengelas, the Inchoroi says that, aside from his brother, he was the last of those "who fell from the void". Hope this helps. view post

posted 15 Jun 2005, 06:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNonmen who and what are they? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Aengales":3bszfg3c]One more question, why are the Inchoroi "raping" people a lot, like Sarcellus he thought once "to cut her head and f**k it" about Esmenet...[/quote:3bszfg3c] Well, they get introduced in the books, (in one of those excerpts at the beginning of a chapter) as the "race of flesh and lovers". They developed the Tekne (cloning/gene manipulation technology) to create "living sculptures", as a form of perverse art. The Sranc, Bashrag, Dragons are all results of the Tekne, weapons they used in their wars against the Nonmen. They use sexual instincts/hungers which are hardwired in their creations to direct their actions. The only way a skin-spy or a Sranc can get gratification is by obeying his masters, i.e. killing someone or torturing etc. view post

posted 15 Jun 2005, 15:06 in Off-Topic DiscussionAnd now for something totally idiotic - BK v McDonalds by White Lord, Subdidact

:lol: :lol: view post

posted 16 Jun 2005, 06:06 in Author Q & APsukhe vs The Gnosis by White Lord, Subdidact

Well, the books say the Psukhe is "almost" as formidable as the Anagogis, so it's obviously not nearly as powerful as the Gnosis. view post

posted 16 Jun 2005, 19:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNonmen who and what are they? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Quinthane":jbsn7p2p][quote="Da-krul":jbsn7p2p]Move over scott, White Lord is gunning for your job[/quote:jbsn7p2p] [b:jbsn7p2p] [size=150:jbsn7p2p]WHITE LORD BIOGRAPHY MATERIAL UNEARTHED[/size:jbsn7p2p][/b:jbsn7p2p] Fellow WhiteLordians, After unearthing the lost (discarded?) transcripted posts from the PoN message board, I realized that there’s more to be learned about the W. Lord of Queries to whom we’ve offered up absolutly no allegiance and (test results allowing) will buy him some kidney beans. I retraced my steps down the path that first led me to the lost post. It seems, however, that passwords have been changed and a firewall installed. (I’m not certain if this is due to a recent security breach or if R. Scott is experiencing dead-line induced paranoia and has had a cease and dissist order filed against WL. His personal diary makes no mention of it.) The study deepens. Always it deepens. So, undeterred by these permutations,, I cast about for the shortest path with no security measures and decided to contact some of the people mentioned on the blah bla[size=75:jbsn7p2p]h bullshit blah balo[/size:jbsn7p2p][size=59:jbsn7p2p]ney blah bla...[/size:jbsn7p2p] .[/quote:jbsn7p2p] :lol: :lol: Scott hasn't complained yet, and I'm sure you wouldn't like it if he did . . . :) Otherwise, if I get any more ribbing, I'll stop showering my vast knowledge on you undeserving philistines . . . ;) :) 8) view post

posted 16 Jun 2005, 19:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNonmen who and what are they? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Aengales":274xf1av]So then, Mog-Pharau is just a alien super being ?[/quote:274xf1av] I wouldn't say he's alien like the Inchoroi, more likely something they discovered on Earwa, and through Nonman sorcery . . . [quote="Aengales":274xf1av]Has Scott confirmed the fact that the Inchoroi are aliens ? Or are we speculating ?[/quote:274xf1av] Yes, he's confirmed it; but really, there's no other conclusion you can draw after you've read the stuff that's said of them in the books . . . view post

posted 16 Jun 2005, 20:06 in Author Q & AFavourite Sorcerous School? by White Lord, Subdidact

What, am I the only one who likes the Consult? :cry: :lol: Have you never thought of the advantages? Just wait until I set up a PR campaign, I assure you, you will look on the Consult Fathers with different eyes . . . :lol: :shock: view post

posted 16 Jun 2005, 22:06 in Author Q & APsukhe vs The Gnosis by White Lord, Subdidact

Yes, but you should remember that Achamian says how he destroyed [i:3p5yqth3]two[/i:3p5yqth3] Cishaurim who attacked him in Shimeh, all the while not seeing anything. The Gnosis is simply too powerful, as things stand, for the Psukhe to overcome. Remember, if you have powerful wards, and know a sorcery that is stronger than the Anagogis, there is little a Cishaurim can do to you . . . view post

posted 21 Jun 2005, 00:06 in Off-Topic DiscussionWoT by White Lord, Subdidact

I'll go with Nr. 3 as well . . . :) view post

posted 21 Jun 2005, 15:06 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat happens when your soul leaves your body? by White Lord, Subdidact

I thought it was 21 grams . . . ;) view post

posted 05 Jul 2005, 05:07 in The Warrior Prophetquestion about achamian? by White Lord, Subdidact

I'm not sure we can still believe he means to kill his father. Actually it's doubtful if he intended to do it from the very beginning. Never take Kellhus at his word. :) And I also think Achamian will wind up teaching him the Gnosis. Although, if you check the scene between him and Kellhus, while he hangs from that tree in Caraskand, you may notice that Kellhus already seems to have some sort of sorcerous power, since they communicate by telepathy. view post

posted 07 Jul 2005, 01:07 in Philosophy DiscussionAMERICAN POLITICS... by White Lord, Subdidact

Well, I have to say that this last post beats all as far as naivete' is concerned . . . :) If you think isolationism works, well try it! For a year maybe, and see how far you can go towards "solving" the problems you mention . . . Also, as far as I'm concerned, Europe really could do without NATO, so if you can convince the US government to pull out (as far as I can see, it's more in the Americans' interest to still remain in Europe, than it is in Europe's interest to have them . . .), you'll have my support! :) view post

posted 07 Jul 2005, 02:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWhat is the Thousand-Fold Thought? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Odin":3pwkmyso][quote="Cynadar":3pwkmyso]Thread's been dead since november it seems, but I'll post my thoughts on the Thousandfold thought anyway. I think the thousandfold thought deals with Kellhus' ability to manipulate and even think with the thousands of minds that he is able to control. Does that sound like a real possibility?[/quote:3pwkmyso] I couldn't be sure...but I think both this and the bit in the original post for this thread (the part about possibly the Dunyain being similar to the No-God) have a bit of truth in them. During the Seswathan dreams described, it mentioned that Mog-Pharau was speaking through the thousands of Sranc everywhere. It is also said in TWP that Kellhus actually spoke though the two women (can't remember exactly where, but it happened). Perhaps Kellhus is but at the beginning stages?[/quote:3pwkmyso] You're taking that description too literally. What Kellhus did was influence Esmenet and Serwe in such a way that they would unconsciously say the things he needed them to say to advance his cause, not that he had possession of them and was literally speaking through them. So you cannot link Kellhus to the No-God's ability to speak through Inchoroi creations. view post

posted 07 Jul 2005, 10:07 in Off-Topic DiscussionNeed help with holes!!! by White Lord, Subdidact

:lol: :lol: :lol: view post

posted 09 Jul 2005, 17:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWill Esmi Cause Mandati/Warrior-Prophet Drama? by White Lord, Subdidact

Isn't this discussion pretty much moot? After all, Scott has posted a brief synopsis for TTT, and it's stated clearly that Achamian [i:1qgi0jqt]will[/i:1qgi0jqt] teach Kellhus the Gnosis . . . view post

posted 10 Jul 2005, 05:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWill Esmi Cause Mandati/Warrior-Prophet Drama? by White Lord, Subdidact

:P :lol: 8) view post

Re: The Nonmen posted 21 Jul 2005, 10:07 in Author Q & AThe Nonmen by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Lord Sarku":fkxaw2eb]I seem to have missed any description of the Nonmen. Whenever I think of them, I instantly envision some kind of furry Chewbacca Wolfman bronze-age warrior dude, but that just [i:fkxaw2eb]can't[/i:fkxaw2eb] be right...[/quote:fkxaw2eb] Erm . . . that is definitely what they [i:fkxaw2eb]do not[/i:fkxaw2eb] look like! :) As to what they [i:fkxaw2eb]do[/i:fkxaw2eb] look like, you'll have to wait for book three, as they will be described there. Also there are some tidbits in the books that should give you a general idea even now. view post

posted 29 Jul 2005, 20:07 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

I think it's time to resurrect this thread (sorry... ;)) with a few questions :) : 1. Is it possible for unions between Sranc and Men to have offspring? 2. Would Dunyain techniques be effective on the Sranc, or any other Consult creature, with regard to controlling their engineered impulses? PS. It's great news that TTT is done, but also unfair to have readers like yours truly suffer nervous breakdowns in waiting months for the publication... :) As for your question on posting the cover, I think you can post it as an attachment here (though I don't know what the size limitations might be, I suggest checking with the mods!). view post

posted 31 Jul 2005, 02:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWill Esmi Cause Mandati/Warrior-Prophet Drama? by White Lord, Subdidact

Have you people never heard of the Search function on this board? :evil: :wink: [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":3qpf4lal]Only Shimeh remains. The Padirajah has been slain, and the heathen Fanim have fled in disarray. One final march will bring the Holy War to the City of the Latter Prophet. But so very much has changed... Using godlike insight and ruthless deceit, Anasûrimbor Kellhus has conquered the hearts of all, including the harlot Esmenet, who now shares his bed. Only the barbarian, Cnaiür, and the sorcerer, Achamian, continue to hazard doubts. But where Cnaiür topples ever deeper into madness and wanton violence, Achamian is compelled to yield the secrets of the Gnosis. Not only must he protect the man who stole his wife, he must teach the most powerful sorcery known to the greatest intellect to ever walk the earth. And he fears what might happen... The final reckoning is at hand. Faceless assassin will strike in the dead of night. Kings and Emperors will fall. The sorcerous Schools will be unleashed. And Anasûrimbor Kellhus will at last confront his father and the dread revelation of the Thousandfold Thought.[/quote:3qpf4lal] view post

posted 04 Aug 2005, 22:08 in Author Q & AThe Status of Women and Some Real World Comparisons by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Tattooed Hand":3iz251o3]What would be the implication of making the Sranc, a beastial and brutual race, an unnatural, engineered race by evil (as far as we know now) into the only matriarchial/matrilineal/what ever you are planning to do with them that contrasts with partiarchy?[/quote:3iz251o3] It could also mean the Sranc attribute [i:3iz251o3]no[/i:3iz251o3] importance to gender differences. They could be similar to the Dunyain (again this is hypothetical, since we know nothing about the Dunyain in this regard either) if for different reasons . . . view post

posted 04 Aug 2005, 22:08 in Author Q & ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

Well, yes, Kellhus did defeat Cnaiur, but I'm sure Mith knows that. As to who else could defeat him, well, it's a big world, with a lot of skilled fighters. I'm sure there could be many among the Norsirai or Ketyai who could do it (leaving it to Scott to confirm) or some 7-foot Zeumi sword-dancer for that matter. The Nonmen are supposed to be very good fighters (just check the fight between Kellhus and Mekeritrig, where even Kellhus was hard-pressed for a time.) Then again, Scott has said somewhere on the board (probably in my questions thread) that they don't survive long in the Three Seas, which begs the question: if they are so superior as fighters to "normal" men, how can they not last long there? Are whole armies sent to defeat them? :) view post

posted 04 Aug 2005, 23:08 in Author Q & AAnasurimbors as high councillors by White Lord, Subdidact

Yes, but why would they want to be counselors to anyone? First of all, they don't care much for the world, (or at least that is the initial impression for them both, which may well have changed for Moenghus, or is about to for Kellhus), and in any event they are descended from kings, and have the means to regain their birthright, so why shouldn't they go for that? You may also be underestimating the degree of predestination that may be woven in the world, so if the Anasurimbor are "destined" to retake the role of Celmomas, as the leaders of Men in the Apocalypse, to do anything else might be impossible. Remember that Scott has said somewhere of Kellhus that he is a meaningless character trying to conserve his meaninglessness in a world deep with meaning (or words to that effect). So I wonder what is "meant" for Kellhus, and if he'll be able to use the vaunted Dunyain abilities for much . . . :) Enough of my rambling . . . Comments welcome! :) view post

posted 05 Aug 2005, 01:08 in Author Q & AA few questions . . . by White Lord, Subdidact

Scott, I remember you saying somewhere that the world "opens up" a lot in AE. What I'm interested in is whether the Outside will also play a role in the books. Up to now we have seen almost nothing of it, if you discount the demon in Iothiah. So I'd like to know if we'll ever get any POV scenes featuring the "agencies" from the Outside, or at least a (more or less ;)) clear picture of what they're up to (if anything) . . . Thanks! :) view post

posted 06 Aug 2005, 01:08 in Author Q & ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":2v732lab]I was thinking there might rank some among the Nonmen warriors certainly, as well as the Inchoroi. Of men though, I would expect the number to be limited (so little is known of Zeum, I have no idea if candidates would be present there).[/quote:2v732lab] Well, I don't know about that . . . The sword-dancers are supposed to be incredible fighters, to judge from the "fee" the Emperor had to pay to get one, and his poor showing against Kellhus is hardly indicative. Then again, I think a mistake that is often made is to consider characters we get to know in the books as the best in the whole world, when that may not be necessarily true, or that new characters with superior abilities won't be introduced in the future. WRT Cnaiur himself, the blurb for TTT describes him as falling even deeper into madness, so this is not a good recommendation for him being able to defeat someone who has even a modicum of ability and a working brain . . . :) As to the Inchoroi, there are only two of them left and due to their nature, they could adopt almost any physical shape, so what's to stop them from forging some 500-ton biomass and simply squashing Cnaiur like a bug? ;) In short, I don't really see the Inchoroi doing any physical fighting. [quote="target":2v732lab]Maybe the reason Nonmen struggle to survive in the Three Seas is due to the climate or something like that. A weak idea, but an idea. Shoot me down someone.[/quote:2v732lab] Since they once ruled all of Earwa, this isn't a very convincing argument . . . :) Actually, the Tusk damns the Nonmen, and demands of the faithful to kill them on sight. view post

posted 06 Aug 2005, 01:08 in Author Q & AAnasurimbors as high councillors by White Lord, Subdidact

Nothing wrong with this train of thought; I simply question whether it'll ever come up. And I don't think it will. I believe there are other things in store for the Anasurimbor, than being counselors to someone else. I guess we'll simply have to wait and see . . . :) view post

posted 06 Aug 2005, 05:08 in Author Q & ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cynical Cat":3j2x2939]Only the Few can see the Few, but anyone can see a Nonman. Considering the reaction that the Scarlett Spires recieved when they paraded throught the camp of the Holy War and they were human and part of the Holy War, a Nonman is quickly going to be up to his or her ass in trouble.[/quote:3j2x2939] Yes, but I was pointing out another thing. If you go back to the scene where Kellhus confronts the Nonman in the North, there was nothing that showed him he was in the presence of something not human. Only when the Nonman starts talking does Kellhus realize this is a Nonman. This means they are very similar to humans in body shape. The only distinctive difference might be the face, which is always described as inhumanly beautiful. So if a Nonman wears armor, a helm covering his face (resembling any warrior/noble in the Three Seas) and avoids prolonged contact with humans, it would be much harder to figure him out as a Nonman. And if that happens, and if the Nonmen are so superior to men in the fighting department, I'd like to know how they can be despatched so easily, since it would take large bodies of men to do that. I'm not saying they can't be wiped out quickly, I'm more interested in the mechanics of the thing (this is a query for you, Scott, BTW :)). view post

posted 06 Aug 2005, 22:08 in Author Q & ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

Yes, Nonmen have [i:3itg9ad8]nimil[/i:3itg9ad8], which is harder than Dunyain steel, which is harder than the best steel in the Three Seas, according to what Scott has said. As to Chorae, I would guess they work in the same way for the Nonmen as for men. view post

posted 06 Aug 2005, 22:08 in The Warrior ProphetThe Few and Kellhus by White Lord, Subdidact

if i remember correctly, he hung from a tree, by a rope, for nine days, to gain wisdom. It was a self-sacrifice. It has many parallels to what Kellhus has done. But I'm also interested in what meaning the introduction of trees as symbols in both books has. It is most pronounced in the vision Kellhus has of the No-God, accompanied by that of a gigantic tree. Also, it occurs in the fight between Kellhus and Mekeritrig at the very beginning of TDtCB, and if you read carefully, and connect it to the other tree imagery, it seems Mekeritrig, and through him the Consult is literally pushing or preventing him from some discovery/realization. I have some ideas of my own but I'd like to see what others make of this tree symbolism. As a sidenote, I did ask Scott a while back, and with his usual coyness he said it did play a role, but I'd have to wait and see which one . . . :) view post

posted 07 Aug 2005, 02:08 in Author Q & ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

I think we need a little recap here. Basically I asked Scott a while back if many Nonmen were in the ranks of the Holy War (hidden of course) since they crave trauma so much. What better place to be in, right? He said there weren't any, and that Nonmen "tend not to" last long in the Three Seas. Later he added that the Tusk has the same attitude towards the Nonmen that it has towards sorcerers, and calls for their extermination. All well and fine, but to my mind it doesn't tally with what we know of them and their abilities, and simply because the Tusk damns them doesn't mean that every man everywhere will kill them on sight. There was, after all, such a thing as the Nonman Tutelage, when Men and Nonmen were allied for centuries. I wouldn't find it hard to believe there are men willing to join Nonmen. I also think we need some more input from Scott on this. view post

posted 07 Aug 2005, 04:08 in Author Q & ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

To me your statement makes little sense too. Let's look at the position of sorcerers. How many hate them, how many are willing to enforce the Tusk law against them and how many do so? As far as the Tusk is concerned, there is no difference between sorcerers and Nonmen. What I said (or implied) in my previous post is that the Tusk laws can, and many times are, ignored. It happened in the Ancient North (for a time, because even there I guess the relationship between men and Nonmen was rocky) and there is no reason to think it couldn't happen in the Three Seas. Mekeritrig, the Nonman who fights Kellhus in Book 1 is also a powerful Gnostic sorcerer. He also appears to enjoy fighting with his sword. How many more like him are there? How many more greedy nobles or sorcerers willing to give assistance in exchange for instruction? I also think that as far as the Three Seas are concerned, what the "man in the street" thinks is irrelevant, and what the nobles do to further their interests is not always parallel to the Tusk laws, and they care little about that too. That's why I find this "killing out of hand" situation a bit strange. I still think we'll have to wait for Scott to give us something definite . . . view post

posted 07 Aug 2005, 06:08 in The Warrior ProphetThe Few and Kellhus by White Lord, Subdidact

Some very interesting toughts . . . Also, in the case of Kellhus, we can say he has come down from the tree with some kind of "wisdom". He thinks he knows what Moenghus meant by Thousandfold Thought. Also, there seems to be a positive outward transformation. When he is let down from the tree and addresses the crowd he has haloes round his hands, and since all can see them I assume they are there for real. Which also leads me to another question, perhaps closer to the topic of this thread. The nature of Kellhus. If you follow his inner communication with Moenghus (or with Father) as the storyline progresses, there is a subtle change that I'm noticing. Basically, from talking to someone who can be clearly identified as a human being, this communication slowly shifts to something more, as if this "Father" whom he speaks to is not Moenghus but the God. This in turn has made me think on what exactly Kellhus could be: Man or God, son of Moenghus, or of God, or of them [i:38nubyg5]both[/i:38nubyg5]. An interesting clue is that when I let the thing drop in the Q&A board, that Kellhus could be both the son of Moenghus and of God, Scott commented with a short but interesting "Mwahahaha...." view post

posted 07 Aug 2005, 06:08 in The Warrior ProphetThe Few and Kellhus by White Lord, Subdidact

Just another short comment on the vision Kellhus has of the No-God. Clearly the tree is connected to the No-God, so how are we to take it that a symbol of wisdom is associated to an entity we have till now viewed as evil? Is there more to the No-God than meets the eye? That his actions promise no good to humanity is to me certain, still I'm used to Scott always twisting meanings, making it hard to pigeonhole anyone that I'm starting to think that "pigeonholing" the No-God definitely right now could be a little premature . . . view post

posted 07 Aug 2005, 06:08 in The Warrior ProphetThe Few and Kellhus by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="H":26rp78je]Classic Scott, :lol: Could Moenghus have "transcended" to Godlyness by means of the Thousandfold Thought perhaps? And now that Kellhus has "embraced" TTT, he has now begun to "transcend" as well? (Halos as a classic symbol of transcendental nature of somehting.)[/quote:26rp78je] Anything is possible, really. I mean, with how scarce Moenghus has been till now, as in nonexistent :), I'm beginning to think that Kellhus's reunion with "Father" might be with someone who isn't (or never was) flesh and blood. Oh well, I can't wait to get my hands on TTT . . . :) view post

posted 07 Aug 2005, 07:08 in The Warrior ProphetThe Few and Kellhus by White Lord, Subdidact

That tallies with my thinking as well. Actually in other threads I've said that perhaps man is meant to strive towards godhood, and that sorcery is simply one (or the only) means which can bring it about (as in the study of the esoterics as Scott calls it). I also think some of the "agencies" or gods were men once. view post

posted 07 Aug 2005, 07:08 in The Warrior ProphetThe Few and Kellhus by White Lord, Subdidact

Also, as another clue to the nature of Moenghus (or Father really), check the meeting between Kellhus and the Cishaurim in Caraskand. The Cishaurim, as far as I remember doesn't call Moenghus by name. He calls him "your Father . . ." He also says he is the one the possessors of the third sight serve. The Cishaurim, all of them have the third sight, and they all serve the Solitary God, ergo . . . I don't know how accurate this is, but it's still interesting . . . view post

posted 07 Aug 2005, 07:08 in The Warrior ProphetThe Few and Kellhus by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="H":1nfbsa0o][quote="White Lord":1nfbsa0o]That tallies with my thinking as well. Actually in other threads I've said that perhaps man is meant to strive towards godhood, and that sorcery is simply one (or the only) means which can bring it about (as in the study of the esoterics as Scott calls it). I also think some of the "agencies" or gods were men once.[/quote:1nfbsa0o] Good point. This could be a very good reason why the Schools (especially the Mandate, being the most powerful) are so against the No-God. If sorcery is the most powerful form of transcendental power available, then i can see how the No-God is a real threat to the School's power, in that the No-God may be able to wield power beyond sorcerer's scope without the need for the Few or for sorcery at all. And if the No-God's power was able to be had by other's, this would make the Few very very expendable, and not nearly as powerful as they are now...[/quote:1nfbsa0o] Yes, but under my theory, sorcerers themselves may not be aware of this option they have of becoming gods. All of them actually [i:1nfbsa0o]believe[/i:1nfbsa0o] they are damned a priori. What I mean is that sorcery could simply be one or the only path for the adept to become one of the gods, if he only has the courage/realization. Even the No-God's destructiveness could be explained as a sort of punishment for those who are willing slaves, instead of trying to reach for the stars, so to speak. Actually, this theory is grounded on real-world gnostic doctrine, that holds that all men are endowed with a spark of the divine being, that they are captives in prisons of flesh, held on the earth by false gods who don't know of the existence of a single transcendental deity which created all (think Solitary God in our case . . .) ans so believe themselves to be truly creators of all (think the gods of the tusk . . .). I'm not very well-versed in gnostic religions but I've read some things and I'm noticing resonances with Scott's work. view post

posted 07 Aug 2005, 07:08 in The Warrior ProphetThe Few and Kellhus by White Lord, Subdidact

Here is also something I posted in another thread on sorcery: I also think there is a very good reason behind the availability of sorcery to certain persons in this particular reality. I think it's the use of it by men that is somehow blasphemous, because misunderstood in its original purpose. But there is no question of its divine origin, not even the religions in Earwa doubt that, their condemnation of sorcerers results from the fact they do not think man worthy enough to use the highest power (the power of the God) that can modify reality itself, can bend the rules of nature with the utmost ease. This is also interesting because it makes us ask ourselves whether man is really unworthy, or if maybe the God made sorcery available in the first place because it is the best pathway man can use either to come closest to the God, or to become a god . . . :) Another interesting thought is that no one really knows what is or isn't possible with sorcery. It is entirely dependent on the intellect and the experience of the sorcerer. So if you consider the God himself as the greatest sorcerer of them all (the one with the greatest intellect), there is nothing that would prevent a human with a big enough imagination, a deep enough intellect, to modify reality to an incredible degree, to somehow achieve a sort of divinity (in the sense that sorcery has absolute control of space and time, as well as other dimensions). It will be very interesting to see what Kellhus can "do" with the Gnosis . . . :) You can also check my post in this thread: view post

posted 07 Aug 2005, 07:08 in The Warrior ProphetThe Few and Kellhus by White Lord, Subdidact

Good night then . . . :) I actually enjoyed this discussion, also because it's so rare on these boards . . . :) view post

posted 07 Aug 2005, 08:08 in Author Q & ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

Mith, some of what you say may well be true, but the fact that the Scylvendi call themselves the People of War, or that they fight whenever they get the chance does not make them inherently or in fact better fighters than others. From what Achamian tells Kellhus even the Scylvendi feared the Norsirai of antiquity as warriors, which makes me think that at that time the Norsirai were in fact stronger (and may still be, there is no reference to battles between Norsirai and Scylvendi in the Three Seas). Also, I may grant you that Cnaiur is the strongest of his race, but I think we have no way of knowing how they compare with the Zeumi, who are apparently ruled by "warlords" from the little tidbits we have of them in the books. I also think that if we speak of individual prowess, we must not mix the collective success of a people like the Scylvendi and compare it to that of others. Sure, as a people the Scylvendi have bested many times the peoples of the Three Seas, but even Cnaiur has learned to respect some of them as warriors. But notwithstanding all that I simply think that Cnaiur may be becoming too unhinged to fight with his natural cunning anymore. If he becomes nothing more than a mad beast unleashed, I wonder who [i:1ys1dh7v]couldn't[/i:1ys1dh7v] defeat him with a bit of intelligent fighting. view post

posted 07 Aug 2005, 11:08 in Author Q & ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":1c0axop2][quote="White Lord":1c0axop2]I also think that if we speak of individual prowess, we must not mix the collective success of a people like the Scylvendi and compare it to that of others. [/quote:1c0axop2] Well if that is truly so you shouldn't have brought up the collective success of the Ancient Norsirai ;)[/quote:1c0axop2] Ah, well, look at the [i:1c0axop2]context[/i:1c0axop2]. You mention the Scylvendi as the more or less unique and invincible People of War. I oppose the Norsirai who may have been even better. Only [i:1c0axop2]later[/i:1c0axop2] do I say this is irrelevant to the point being discussed, which is proven also by the Scylvendi/Norsirai comparison. ;) I should also add that you sidestepped the issue of the Norsirai of the present. They are very much reduced in numbers from the times of the Ancient North, but I guess not very much reduced in spirit, and the battle scenes featuring them are in every way comparable to those featuring the Scylvendi. Add to that that the Scylvendi have never been extremely numerous, and I can reasonably suppose a Norsirai victory over a Scylvendi host even in the present. But I think it's time to wind this debate up. To recapitulate, we don't at all disagree on the main point, namely that there are men out there who could beat Cnaiur in a fight. It's just that I claim they are more numerous than what you believe. :) Again, I'm eagerly awaiting Scott's input to this thread . . . :) view post

posted 08 Aug 2005, 11:08 in Author Q & ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cynical Cat":1nujf3mm]White Lord, are you forgetting that mighty Norisai civilization that collapsed in the First Apocalypse? Even with the No-God. the Wracu, Sranc, Scylvendi [i:1nujf3mm]et. al.[/i:1nujf3mm], the Consult didn't win. Of course the Scylvendi respect the Nosirai's prowess. Think about how often they must have been beaten before the rise of the Consult.[/quote:1nujf3mm] You must have confused me with Mithfanion. I've been saying what you just wrote the whole time. [quote="Cynical Cat":1nujf3mm]As for the Nonmen description, I don't recall any mention of its face. The Sranc have beautiful faces. What it is clear, even covered in full armour and clothes to handle the Northern climate, the Nonman is clearly inhuman (to a perceptive observer) at close range.[/quote:1nujf3mm] That's simply not true. The Nonmen are the equivalent of Tolkien's elves, and I guess bear the same difference with regard to humans. In other words, they may be more beautiful, more refined or whatever, but certainly that is the [i:1nujf3mm]only[/i:1nujf3mm] thing that would make them stand out. [quote="Cynical Cat":1nujf3mm]As for the Nonmen's dominance of men in the north, that dates from a periond both before the coming of the Tusk (if I recall the timeline correctly) and a time when Nonmen were more numerous and better organized (and probably saner).[/quote:1nujf3mm] The Nonmen dominated men in all of Earwa before the invasions described in the Tusk overthrew them. They were never more numerous than men, especially not so after the Four Tribes conquered Earwa. view post

posted 12 Aug 2005, 16:08 in Author Q & ACnaiur's prowess by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cynical Cat":3u8b9gkr][quote="White Lord":3u8b9gkr]That's simply not true. The Nonmen are the equivalent of Tolkien's elves, and I guess bear the same difference with regard to humans. In other words, they may be more beautiful, more refined or whatever, but certainly that is the [i:3u8b9gkr]only[/i:3u8b9gkr] thing that would make them stand out. [/quote:3u8b9gkr] They are equivalent of elves, but we have never seen their faces.[/quote:3u8b9gkr] Yes we have, though indirectly. More of this later . . . [quote="Cynical Cat":3u8b9gkr]The Sranc, who are orc equivalents, have beautiful faces not hideous ones.[/quote:3u8b9gkr] They have beautiful faces because they were made by the Inchoroi from Nonman genes, and the fact that they have these beautiful faces on a freakish body is the Inchoroi way of taunting the Nonmen. [quote="Cynical Cat":3u8b9gkr]We know that they are superior to humans, we don't know that Scott has decided to make them more beautiful. We know that Kelhus was immediately able to tell the differance at close range despite the Nonman wearing heavy armor.[/quote:3u8b9gkr] You should re-read that scene. Kellhus sees nothing strange in him, physically. What makes him realize that he is in the presence of a Nonman is what Mekeritrig [i:3u8b9gkr]says[/i:3u8b9gkr]. [quote="Cynical Cat":3u8b9gkr]That he was beautiful is your conjecture. If he is beautiful and has cat's eyes or pointed ears, then even ordinary humans will pick up on it if he or she sees those features.[/quote:3u8b9gkr] I never make conjectures, if I can help it. :) We [i:3u8b9gkr]do[/i:3u8b9gkr] have a description of a Nonman's face. And it's identical to the descriptions we get of Sranc faces, which is the main clue linking them to the Nonmen. If you re-read the scene where Achamian is tortured by the Scarlet Spires you'll see what I'm talking about. Essentially, when I think of the Nonmen, I envision them as elves, and think the difference between them and men is the same as that between elves and men in Tolkien. I think Scott has said more or less the same thing in one of his posts here on the board. So thinking of them as radically different, physically, as far as I'm concerned, is wrong. view post

posted 26 Aug 2005, 22:08 in The Warrior ProphetThe Few and Kellhus by White Lord, Subdidact

I think any analogy between the No-God and Sauron is wrong. And this especially since I think the concepts of "good" and "evil" have no meaning in the books we are reading. No one here is lily-white, and no one will ever be, and the opposite is also true. What we are witnessing right now in the Holy War is a mini-Apocalypse in its own right, and it is only in part Consult-driven. Also, we have an imperfect knowledge of the world and history of Earwa, we are exposed to only snippets of data, from [i:1skqvnmg]one[/i:1skqvnmg] side alone. We have no understanding of what the objectives of the Consult might be. As far as I'm concerned, until I know more of what [i:1skqvnmg]they[/i:1skqvnmg] are after, I'm not going to consider them (and the No-God) evil as in "mindlessly evil". They could even be justified in doing what they've been doing all these millennia. To conclude: no one has an exclusive on brutality and genocide/xenocide in this world, so it's not an indication of evil in itself. view post

posted 26 Aug 2005, 22:08 in The Warrior ProphetThe Few and Kellhus by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Cynical Cat":1a5j56or][quote="Deerow":1a5j56or]Well fair enough...Mog Pharau in and of his/itself may not be the sort of "ultimate evil" but it was utilized in such a way as to maximize the evil possibilites his/its existence brings. Perhaps Mog-Pharau does not want to be used in such ways by the Consult.[/quote:1a5j56or] Thus my "instruement of evi" and "too vile to be permitted to exist"l lines. :D[/quote:1a5j56or] I'm not sure I'm following what you're trying to say here CC . . . I take it it's similar to the analogy: murderers are evil and guns are too vile to be permitted to exist. (The murderers being the Consult and the guns the No-God.) So what do we do then? Do we do away with guns so there will be no murderers, or do we remove the murderers and leave guns alone, like the inanimate, mindless tools they are? And is the No-God so mindless after all, is he really a tool even, or made-to-order? He is simply too powerful to be mindless. I think it's more a case of the Consult harnessing the power of an entity that has no experience of the dimension of reality that is Earwa, perhaps has no [i:1a5j56or]place[/i:1a5j56or] in it, and hence all the stillbirths. I see the Carapace and the physical manifestation of the No-God as nothing else than a focus (built by the Consult) that permits it to affect the world. So in my mind the No-God is nothing but a confused child with immense power (in the dimension of Earwa, not somewhere in the Outside) that is being used by the Consult to some end. The fact that Earwa is totally alien to him may explain his lack of knowledge or confusion. It's easy to see then why he may not be at all evil, but only misguided. So you don't "kill" him because he's evil, or because he's consciously doing something wrong, but you remove him from Earwa because he has no place in it, just like the demon Iyokus summoned has no place in it. I could also be wrong, and the No-God could be acting consciously, and also [i:1a5j56or]outside Consult control[/i:1a5j56or], for some reason of his own. And the questions he puts to Seswatha could indicate something that goes beyond his being confused/not all-knowing, directed to us readers. I'm sure things will start to fit better as we learn more of the world, I'm just recommending to everyone not to think in absolutes. And now I'm off to bed, and I hope my scribblings make sense to you all . . . :D view post

Re: A brief history of Earwa? posted 31 Aug 2005, 08:08 in The Warrior ProphetA brief history of Earwa? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="TheBrucolac":4s88doox]Inchoroi come to Earwa "from the void" (alien spaceships?).[/quote:4s88doox] Yes the Inchoroi came in a spaceship that crashed in the north, the location of Golgotterath. [quote:4s88doox]Earwa is populated by men and Nonmen, the Nonmen being the dominant species. Nonmen, as compared to men are extremely long-lived, perhaps seeming immortal to short-lived men. At some point, either before of after the arrival of the Inchoroi, Nonmen have enslaved men.[/quote:4s88doox] Nonmen had a lifespan of about 400 years before they were "adjusted" by the Inchoroi. They had enslaved the only race of Men that lived in Earwa, the Emwama, a long time before the Inchoroi came. [quote:4s88doox]The Inchoroi are hidden and defeated, but not beaten.[/quote:4s88doox] The Inchoroi were supposedly exterminated. This is what the Nonmen thought. It's clear that some survived. The two we see in the books are, by their own admission, the last, but it's possible that more were alive in the past. It's been confirmed by Scott that the Inchoroi were instrumental in convincing (after the end of the Cuno-Inchoroi wars) the four Tribes of Men from Eanna to invade Earwa, effectively forcing another age of war on the Nonmen. [quote:4s88doox]Men gain their freedom from Nonmen ("the breaking of the gates").[/quote:4s88doox] The "Breaking of the Gates" refers to the conquest of Nonmen strongholds in the Great Kayarsus that defended the whole of Earwa. The Men that did this were never enslaved by the Nonmen. These slaves, the Emwama, were exterminated along with the Nonmen who resisted this invasion. [quote:4s88doox]Nonmen enslave the Sranc, as they had enslaved Men.[/quote:4s88doox] Nonmen never enslaved the Sranc. They are deadly enemies. The Nonmen we see consorting with the Sranc in the books are called Erratics, repudiated by the remaining Nonmen. Their behavior does not mirror that of Nonmen in general. [quote:4s88doox]At some point, the Tusk, the first chronical of men on Earwa is written. The first great age of men dawns, as the great Northern kingdoms of Kuniuri, Eamnor, Akksersia and Aorsi rise and flourish, as do the old empires of the Three Seas.[/quote:4s88doox] The northern nations you cite are simply the last Norsirai nations to exist in the North before its destruction. There were other historical empires, extinct at the time of the Apocalypse, among them Umerau. The Tusk was written concomitantly with the invasion of Earwa by the Four Tribes. [quote:4s88doox]Men and Nonmen establish relations and exchange ideas.[/quote:4s88doox] This relation was exclusively between the Nonmen of Injor-Niyas and the Norsirai civilization that evolved along the river Aumris. It was called the Nonman Tutelage and lasted for several hundred years, till the Rape of Anasurimbor Omindalea by a Nonman in the year 825. [quote:4s88doox]At some point, Nonmen pass knowledge of their war against the Inchoroi to men.[/quote:4s88doox] I expect this was also done during the Tutelage. I believe there is some mention of this in the books. [quote:4s88doox]The ancient gnostic School of Mangaecca (founders/creators/disvcoverers of the Mandate Gnosis?) acting on information from the Nonman sorcerer Meketirig, discover hidden Golgotterath.[/quote:4s88doox] The Mangaecca didn't discover the Gnosis. All the Schools of the Ancient North used it. It was given to them by the Nonmen. The first Nonman Quya to teach it to them was Gin'yursis, a renegade. [quote:4s88doox]The Mangaecca become fascinated with the alien Inchoroi technology they find there. At some point, The Many wage war agains the Mangaecca. The Mangeacca succeed in raising the No-God, beginning the First Apocalypse, ending the reign of men in the North.[/quote:4s88doox] The Apocalypse was well under way by the time the Consult raised the No-God, but his actions certainly contributed to a lot of the butcher's bill. [quote:4s88doox]Things that don't fit: Nonmen - which side did they fight on in the First Apocalypse? Did they fight on both sides?[/quote:4s88doox] Nonmen have always been the enemies of the Inchoroi and their heirs, the Consult. They fought with Men against the No-God and the Consult throughout. The only Nonmen who joined the Consult were the Erratics, who were estranged from other Nonmen. [quote:4s88doox]The Inchoroi - have they been hiding for the past several thousand years, or did they fight in the First Apocalypse as well? The scene at the end of TWP seems to indicate that there are only two Inchoroi left, yet they hold total sway over the Nonmen and Sranc of the North.[/quote:4s88doox] My idea is that they did participate in the Apocalypse, but most likely in leadership roles, as their numbers would have been small. Also I see them as being more or less the equals of other leading Consult members, among whom are also Men and Nonmen. This comes across from the thoughts of the Inchoroi Synthese we see in the books. [quote:4s88doox]Does anybody have any additions or corrections? I'm sure I've made several mistakes and incorrect assumptions here.[/quote:4s88doox] I've threaded some additional info through your post, which I think is a fair sketch of Earwic history. You can find all of this material in other posts, especially in the Author Q&A board, but I thought it would be better to post it here as text, instead of just disconnected links to other pages. There's probably more to be said, but I'm kinda tired right now, and I wouldn't want people to accuse me of writing an Encyclopaedia here so I'll desist . . . ;) view post

posted 31 Aug 2005, 22:08 in The Warrior ProphetA brief history of Earwa? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":1u438is8][i:1u438is8]Things that don't fit: Nonmen - which side did they fight on in the First Apocalypse? Did they fight on both sides? [/i:1u438is8] In short, yes. Scott has explained that the Nonmen fought both for the No-God and against him. They are somewhat ambiguous in this respect unlike Tolkien's Eldar, whom they be might be loosely modelled on. [/quote:1u438is8] I think we have to make a few qualifications here. When we say "Nonmen" we usually mean the Cunuroi as a whole, as a people. So to say that the "Nonmen" fought on the side of the Consult is wrong, because they never did so in any significant numbers. There is a post by Scott where he clearly says that the Erratics number perhaps a few thousands, and that [i:1u438is8]they[/i:1u438is8] have always served the Consult. The bulk of Nonmen never did so. They fought with Celmomas as seen in the books. From what you and others post, one could infer that the Nonmen as a whole changed sides many times, lending their aid to the Consult. This is clearly wrong, as it was only a minority. It's like someone saying Men as a whole fought for the No-God simply because the Scylvendi did so. It's better to simply say the Erratics were/are the allies of the Consult. I'm interested to know if the remaining Nonmen even consider the Erratics their kin anymore, after what they have been doing. view post

posted 31 Aug 2005, 22:08 in The Warrior Prophetconsult v. cishaurim by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":e1mp7iad]Additionally it has been suggested by another poster that Shimeh's fall will somehow be literally instrumental to the rise of the No-God and Golgotterath. Perhaps it works as some sort of Bulwark against it's rising, suggesting that it may be truly a Holy City....[/quote:e1mp7iad] I find this [i:e1mp7iad]highly[/i:e1mp7iad] unlikely. First of all because, even if Shimeh does in fact fall, the rebirth of the No-God lies some twenty years in the books' future, if not more. There is a great deal of deja vu in the books, so I think the Second Apocalypse will kick off more or less exactly 2000 years after the first one's beginning. This also mirrors Scott's statement that Aspect-Emperor will begin twenty years after the end of TTT. Remember also that the No-God only came when the Apocalypse had already been raging for a quarter century. So if you want my guess about when the No-God might make an appearance, it's around 4140-55, and it will have nothing to do with Shimeh's fall or lack thereof. view post

posted 31 Aug 2005, 23:08 in Author Q & ABetraying the Gnosis by White Lord, Subdidact

To my mind, it all depends on how closely the apprentices are watched. You mention (actually Achamian mentions it . . . :)) that the stronghold of the Scarlet Spires is invulnerable. But I would bet that Atyersus is equally if not more strongly defended. After all, when a certain level of protection is reached, any offense must fail. To get back on topic, I'd say that if apprentices are confined to Atyersus till they are made sorcerers-of-rank the risk of information leaks or escapes is negligible. If they do manage to escape, they can be easily found. Nron is an island after all, and there must be wards everywhere. You could raise the point of apprentices who lack the ability to advance to the sorcerer-of-rank status, and represent a liability. This could be solved by simply eliminating them, if this kind of ruthlessness is acceptable to the Mandate, and it seems that it is, since all that matters is the Mission. So I guess that, if we ascribe enough ruthlessness to the Mandate, it's very possible to hold the secret of the Gnosis indefinitely. I think a much more pertinent question would be how the ancient Norsirai were able to protect the Gnosis from the rest of Earwa, or why they even tried, especially during the Apocalypse. view post

posted 01 Sep 2005, 10:09 in The Warrior ProphetA brief history of Earwa? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":dc2aahrb][i:dc2aahrb]So to say that the "Nonmen" fought on the side of the Consult is wrong, because they never did so in any significant numbers. [/i:dc2aahrb] A) It is specifically not wrong, because we know that Nonmen fought [b:dc2aahrb]for[/b:dc2aahrb] the No-God. Now, how you yourself choose to qualify and categorize that is your own business, I'm just stating what is clear and presently mentioned in the books and on this board.[/quote:dc2aahrb] Why all the harshness of tone? I thought I had made the point of my post quite clear: You simply don't have what it takes to make any statements of fact based on a few sentences in a book that can be interpreted in more than one way. And my alternate interpretation was just that, one that has as much, or as little, behind it as does yours, which you put forward with a lot of "certainty". It's clear that [i:dc2aahrb]you[/i:dc2aahrb] choose to take that "Nonmen" to mean the Cunuroi as a whole, as a people. I just pointed out that one could just as reasonably take it to mean the Nonmen as a [i:dc2aahrb]part of a larger whole[/i:dc2aahrb]. And I guess it's your own business how you take [i:dc2aahrb]that[/i:dc2aahrb]. You seem to be taking a lot of things in a black-and-white fashion, even where you admit that we don't yet know [i:dc2aahrb]everything[/i:dc2aahrb] and Scott is always being deliberately vague about things. Are you seriously claiming that what we've read so far is cast in iron, and cannot be undermined in future books? Or that it is more than a part of a much larger puzzle we're not yet seeing in its entirety? One that is not giving us much yet to make statements with certainty? Especially so with regard to the Nonmen. But essentially I'm using common sense and the past history of both Inchoroi and Cunuroi to give credit to what I'm saying. I'm not seeing you doing the same. I'm simply seeing you superimposing your own meaning on that sentence from the books. For this to be true (that the Nonmen as an entire people chose to fight for those who basically doomed them as a race) you will have to say that the Nonman king Nil'giccas (the fount of authority for the Nonmen) chose to ally himself with the Consult. And I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing the exact opposite. The books also spell it out for you: Nil'giccas and Celmomas were allies. [quote:dc2aahrb]B) Whether or not the Nonmen fought for the No-God in insignifcant numbers is something you don't know. It's just your speculation. Since neither you nor anyone else knows the numbers of the Nonmen population [i:dc2aahrb]as a whole[/i:dc2aahrb] , we can't say how big a percentage of those Nonmen fought for the Consult.[/quote:dc2aahrb] Ah, surely it's just speculation. I'm glad you see that. I wish you'd also specify that your position is also speculation, with as much (or as little) backing it as mine. Then we could agree on the fact that until we know for sure it would be unwise to make any claims either way, as you made in the post I first responded to. [quote:dc2aahrb]What we know is that there were Nonmen who fought for and against the No God. This is mentioned in the books. Even if it is just a small percentage, the statement that the Nonmen are an ambiguous people who have fought for and against Mog Pharau remains as correct as can be.[/quote:dc2aahrb] Yes, but the catch is in the "small percentage". Would you say that the actions of a fringe of renegades accounts for the wishes of a whole people? Because my common sense tells me that the best interests of the Cunuroi as a people would have been to defeat the Inchoroi and the Consult, not provide "cannon fodder" for them, or seesaw from one side to the other and back again when the fate of both Men and Nonmen was in the balance. Let's rather talk about the ambiguousness of individuals or groups, rather than that of peoples, because their "ambiguousness" as a people would have been plain idiotic under the circumstances. [quote:dc2aahrb]In the same way we can say that Men fought both for and against the No-God.[/quote:dc2aahrb] And you don't see the weakness of this statement? It argues precisely what I have been saying! Did the Scylvendi comprize the majority of Men? They didn't! If we didn't know about Men as much as we do we could be making the same assumptions about them that we have about the Nonmen. After all since Men fought both for and against the No-God, who is to say that a lot of them didn't do so, instead of just [i:dc2aahrb]one small nation[/i:dc2aahrb], while the vast majority of other Men certainly didn't fight "both for and against the No-God". The problem here is that there are many nations of Men, but only one of Nonmen. So if you use the term "Nonman" too generically it leads to confusion, and I think Scott may have been a bit too vague here. [quote:dc2aahrb][i:dc2aahrb]There is a post by Scott where he clearly says that the Erratics number perhaps a few thousands, and that they have always served the Consult. [/i:dc2aahrb] Which is not correct. What Scott said was that there are a few hundred Nonmen that serve the Consult.[/quote:dc2aahrb] Well thank you for correcting me on the numbers. The gist of those posts would tend to confirm my own speculation however. No mention of Nonmen, just Erratics, as Consult servants. But if you want, I can put to Scott the following question: [i:dc2aahrb]Did the Nonman king ever ally his people to the Consult? Or did just renegades from his authority fight on the Consult's side?[/i:dc2aahrb] Would this be satisfactory to you, if he chose to answer it? view post

posted 01 Sep 2005, 12:09 in The Warrior ProphetA brief history of Earwa? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Murrin":3vsxkfuw]The same post that Mithfanion referred to for Consult-serving numbers also states that the [i:3vsxkfuw]majority[/i:3vsxkfuw] of Nonmen remain in Ishterebinth, which lends more weight to the idea that those serving the Consult are only a small proportion.[/quote:3vsxkfuw] I'm glad you see that. It sure doesn't come through in his posts on the subject in this thread. I never denied that some Nonmen served the Consult. I just didn't want to lump them all in this category, which he seemed to have done. As if at some point the Nonman king fought against Golgotterath, and then he decided to fight for them, ordering his whole people to do so, etc... It does sound a bit unrealistic, doesn't it? view post

posted 01 Sep 2005, 12:09 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":3e6titui]I think the idea of The Dunyain siding with anyone from the outside world needs to be revised. They live in total isolation and to do so is one of their main goals. Just the fact that someone from the outside contacts them through dreams is enough to take their life. I do not see a scenario in which Kellhus has access to various Dunyain to sniff out skin spies all over the place, because that is not what they do. If they are to ally with anyone, may that be Kellhus, the Cunuroi or simply the Men of the North, their very nature and beliefs would have to change completely.[/quote:3e6titui] Yes, but do the Dunyain strike you as monomaniacs? If their environment changes (most probably in a forced intervention from outside) do you see them not changing, adapting? All you have to do is compare how Moenghus and Kellhus have fared in the outside world. They certainly didn't turn into morons or kill themselves. I can give you the argument that, as long as they are isolated, they will stay put. But I don't think we can count on someone from the outside not interfering with them. And if that interference is more than they can cope with, that forces them to even abandon Ishual, then it is more than possible for them to try to safeguard themselves with an alliance with someone from the outside. view post

posted 01 Sep 2005, 13:09 in The Warrior ProphetA brief history of Earwa? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Murrin":1olgowso]I don't think he ever intended to imply that the entire nonman nation, as a group, fought for the No-God - he was talking more about the nonmen as a collection of individuals than a nation, and when he said that nonmen have fought both for and against the Consult, did not mean that the same nonmen were changing sides, but that the entire group cannot be broadly labelled as 'for' or 'against' the Consult because there were individuals of the species fighting on both sides.[/quote:1olgowso] Well, [i:1olgowso]I[/i:1olgowso] have been saying more or less the same thing from the very beginning, but still he had something to say against that, telling me I was quibbling with semantics. So I'm still waiting for him to tell me what he [i:1olgowso]did[/i:1olgowso] mean. view post

posted 02 Sep 2005, 00:09 in The Warrior ProphetA brief history of Earwa? by White Lord, Subdidact

Well, if you persist in saying I'm the only one who's speculating, while you are stating undeniable facts, and giving them your own broad interpretation, I see no point in discussing this any further. I have a lively dislike of vicious circles in discussions and this seems to be one. I hope we can resurrect this thread in a few months or whenever, to see who was right and who was wrong. view post

posted 02 Sep 2005, 08:09 in The Warrior ProphetA brief history of Earwa? by White Lord, Subdidact

You really [i:1893b5lg]do[/i:1893b5lg] like to sidestep my questions, and hide behind sophisms, don't you? I'm in the habit of responding to your posts point by point. You simply say what you have been saying without addressing my "speculations", that you cannot rebut because you too lack the evidence. Now, let's see if I can make [i:1893b5lg]my[/i:1893b5lg] position clear. Do you deny that when someone says "Nonmen fought both for and against the No-God" what is most likely to be assumed is that the Nonman nation as a whole (or in substantial numbers) fought for him and then against him? (Especially since there is only one Nonman nation so you cannot use any other term, such as Scylvendi or Norsirai to make distinctions among Men). Because if this is not so, then I'm perplexed by the amount of questions newcomers always ask on this specific issue. And they [i:1893b5lg]always[/i:1893b5lg] ask about the Nonmen as a whole, which is why I got into this pissing match with you in the first place. Do we have enough information to claim that the whole Nonman nation fought for the No-God at some point? No we don't, and that was what I was trying to say. I was also trying to show that this statement had another possible interpretation, that for all we know might even be vindicated in the following books. But to return to the "Nonmen fought both for and against the No-God" sentence, obviously, if even [i:1893b5lg]one[/i:1893b5lg] Nonman fought for and against the No-God it makes it true in the [i:1893b5lg]literal[/i:1893b5lg] sense, but it is also [i:1893b5lg]extremely[/i:1893b5lg] weak for making [i:1893b5lg]any[/i:1893b5lg] assumptions for the Nonmen as a whole. Can you agree on this? Also please I'd like you to comment on this paragraph from one of my previous posts: [i:1893b5lg]And you don't see the weakness of this statement? It argues precisely what I have been saying! Did the Scylvendi comprize the majority of Men? They didn't! If we didn't know about Men as much as we do we could be making the same assumptions about them that we have about the Nonmen. After all since Men fought both for and against the No-God, who is to say that a lot of them didn't do so, instead of just one small nation, while the vast majority of other Men certainly didn't fight "both for and against the No-God". The problem here is that there are many nations of Men, but only one of Nonmen. So if you use the term "Nonman" too generically it leads to confusion, and I think Scott may have been a bit too vague here.[/i:1893b5lg] So to end this: what I'm trying to do here is to get to the bottom of the real desires and interests of the Nonman nation as a whole, which is more important than what given individual Nonmen have done, and the same holds true for Men, of which we know more, so we can make more guesses or statements of fact. Now I'm asking you what is more important, and also what comes close to really answering the question of the basic loyalties of the Nonmen: what most of them have done, or what a minority did? Please address this. Also tell me if you are more interested in prolonging this pissing match by claiming that the sentence you quoted was true (which I conceded to you as being true in the literal sense) instead of trying to see what was really behind it, which is still wholly open to speculation? I can tell you right now I'd like the second a lot more than the first, if only because that is what will give us the answer to the question that interests most: What did/do the Nonmen as a people want? Now it's up to you to address (constructively) my speculations/claims, or keep hanging your arguments by the (thin) thread I have described above. Wholly up to you. BTW, I also invite others to join this discussion. And I have a specific question too: when/if you had any questions about the Nonmen, such as the one that is exercising me and Mith, did you think of them as a people or as individuals? I think this will really help us to put this whole debate on the proper track (if there is any interest in speculating about this, that is). view post

posted 02 Sep 2005, 09:09 in The Warrior ProphetA brief history of Earwa? by White Lord, Subdidact

If, as you say, I tend to sound "authoritative", I apologize. Believe me this is not my intention. It's just that I like to put spokes in people's wheels at times (good-naturedly of course :)) to see just how well they can defend certain statements that I find dubious or not easily proven. Or simply because at times it is simply too early to say anything definite about something, and my best tactic is to put forward a countertheory such as the one you took exception to. But to further clarify what this debate has been all about, I should say that I was not necessarily responding to your initial post per se in an authoritative way. If I was quibbling about semantics as you said it was because we were trying to help a newbie on the boards. I hope you do realize there has been a lot of confusion on the Nonmen by members/lurkers on this board, so I don't consider this (heated :)) debate useless, just because it has clarified some of the problems regarding the Nonmen that make it hard to speak of them collectively. (And I still retain the impression that TheBroucolac was asking about what they did as a people, or as "majority", hence my response. And I invite him to clarify if I read him right.) This is not a waste of time. And I still want to debate possibilities about them if anyone is interested. view post

posted 02 Sep 2005, 12:09 in Author Q & ABetraying the Gnosis by White Lord, Subdidact

Well I didn't really think on this till you posted your question. We should first see how the [i:oi597m3o]Norsirai[/i:oi597m3o] got access to the Gnosis in the first place. Scott posted here that it was imparted by a single Nonman renegade. And look what came of it. Now we know that the Mandate is somewhat safeguarded from single sorcerers being coerced or even willingly giving it up. But I don't know if protections of this kind were available at the time of the Ancient North. I suspect the Dreams are the result of some Gnostic sorcery, possibly not doable with the Anagogis. If so, the ancient northern Schools could have had some similar protection, along with the usual surveilance techniques. But if they didn't all it would have taken was a single renegade teaching the Gnosis to any Southern School. So your guess is as good as mine . . . view post

posted 04 Sep 2005, 15:09 in Author Q & ABetraying the Gnosis by White Lord, Subdidact

You have misread what I was trying to say. I think that what happened was that a renegade, who had some grievance against the Nonmen, first taught the Gnosis to Men, opening the floodgates, as it were. Once that first step was made, there was no more reason for the Nonmen to keep concealing it from human sorcerers. That is why they could then teach it freely during the Tutelage. In fact "joint research" would have been in the interests of both parties at that point. My point was, and is, that all it takes is a single sorcerer who is qualified to train new sorcerers to his same level of proficiency. That is all it takes for the Gnosis or other sorceries to be transmitted from one "community" to another. This is also exemplified by Achamian, who is in the position to teach Kellhus the Gnosis, (as long as the Seswatha protection mechanism allows it) making him at least his equal, and able in his turn to teach others, causing a sort of chain reaction. Also the fact that the Norsirai did some "refining" doesn't mean that they made it superior to the original Nonman Gnosis, or, for that matter, that the Nonmen have done no more "refining" of their own. They had all the advantages on their side after all. But we know too little to say anything on this subject. Then there is also the issue of the Nonmen having had an additional 2000 years, after the end of the Apocalypse, to continue their studies, while among Men there is only the Mandate (and the Consult, if it can still be considered a human School), and we don't know if they have remained static, or have been doing any research of their own. As to Seswatha sacrificing himself, I don't think we can say this with certainty. All it would have taken was for them to wait for him to die of old age, and for him to work his sorcery as he was about to die. Remember he was already very old at that point, and also spent considerable time after the Apocalypse training those that would become the Mandate. And then again, why do you think there wouldn't have been sorcerers willing to sacrifice themselves, or that some kind of sorcery couldn't be worked with an [i:1e5sl2fj]unwilling[/i:1e5sl2fj] soul or whatever is necessary? Too little data to confirm or deny anything at this point . . . view post

posted 04 Sep 2005, 16:09 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":2gqemc50]It's possible, but it would require the Dunyain to change, as I said in my previous post, to completely alter their ideas about how to live. Their principle is to live in utmost seclusion, to not be tainted in any way. As I see it, if the Dunyain are willing to slay themselves because someone interfered with their purity by sending them dreams, they're likely to react similarly suicidal when an invasion force comes along that manages to overcome them.[/quote:2gqemc50] Again I cannot agree with this. Are you saying that Moenghus and Kellhus were unable to change after going "outside"? And why didn't they kill themselves when they were forced to abandon the other Dunyain, if they were so uneasy about giving up their way of life, or if they had been utterly incapable, from a psychological/conditioning standpoint, to do so? And there is no point saying that the other Dunyain would be unable. Especially using as an example Dunyain who haven't [i:2gqemc50]even been[/i:2gqemc50] exposed to the outside world in the first place, and so have no need to change their [i:2gqemc50]modus operandi[/i:2gqemc50]. What they did was an acceptable sacrifice, while they had a stable environment around them. When that changes they certainly won't self-destruct. There would be no point erasing a 2000-year-old project when there is no absolute and inevitable need to do so. If they are forced to change, then what I said in my previous post is a distinct possibility. Also, as Scott has said, their present position on isolation has evolved through time. More important still, the Dunyain have a Mission, and that is more important than anything else. The most important thing, in fact, is the survival of the Dunyain at all costs, so the Mission can continue. And that is worth any sacrifice. They surely won't turn sentimental if something sours their plans for a while. ;) view post

posted 04 Sep 2005, 16:09 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by White Lord, Subdidact

Another possible clue to the Thousandfold Thought, and especially Kellhus's experience on the tree in Caraskand. Could it have anything to do with Satori, the state of enlightenment/awakening in Zen Buddhism, or some similar experience? Am looking forward to some input on this! view post

posted 04 Sep 2005, 16:09 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":3qr5jp3c]. . . and how the Emperor will react.[/quote:3qr5jp3c] Well, there's some cause to suppose he will react badly (aggressively) and that it won't end well for him. There is a mention by Achamian, in one of his post-Holy War snippets, where he talks about the Emperor after his demise, so there is a clue as well on what we can expect for him. :) view post

posted 06 Sep 2005, 17:09 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

You know what, Mith, it's kinda hard discussing things with you. Every time I say something, you say this is just my speculation, or that I'm pulling these ideas out of thin air. Well, I'd like to know what makes your statements, or your beliefs on the Dunyain more right than mine? On the face of available evidence I'd say that my position is somewhat stronger than yours. You simply fail to address some very pertinent observations I made on the Dunyain and their possible behavior. And if you choose to dismiss them or gloss over them there is no point in discussion. In fact this last post of yours basically says more or less what I said in the first place, that they'll change if they have no other choice. I think I made that clear. Also that I think they really won't have any other choice but to involve themselves. So I repeat: if you choose to misread/ignore most of what I say there is no point in keeping this up . . . But I think I'll wait for someone else to comment on this. In fact, I'd really like for someone to show this board isn't deader than a doornail for a change. Show some life for crying out loud! It's depressing when you have to wait a week or a month for someone to respond. Actually makes me want to quit posting altogether . . . But enough of my rants. ;) view post

posted 06 Sep 2005, 19:09 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Twayleph":1wg9p9ot]But it seems to me that allying with human nations isn't their only choice - not even their most likely. Based on the Consult's complete ignorance of the Dûnyain until very recently and to the context of the prologue, it seems that their reaction to War was to flee, not to ally with mankind's defenders. Why should their reaction this time around be any different? If the Consult besieges Ishuäl (or shows sign of wanting to besiege it), could they not simply flee that old citadel and go hide elsewhere (i.e., Zeüm)?[/quote:1wg9p9ot] About the Dunyain fleeing war. This ties in nicely with what I have been saying: they did so in order to preserve themselves and their mission. As to what they might do in the present/future . . . well, they're a lot stronger now than they were then, so to flee without fighting may not be an option. As to what Mith says, that if they are disturbed they'll go out with a collective suicide, this just won't happen. But to address your other point on them finding some other refuge, this too is possible, even probable maybe, but I also see individual Dunyain choosing/being ordered to offer their services in exchange for shelter. Then also, the whole point of moving from point A to point B would entangle them in events they might find a bit hard to resist themselves . . . :) view post

posted 06 Sep 2005, 19:09 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Destruction of the Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Mithfânion":1b6jq7ip]That being said, I feel similarly about the state of the board. Perhaps the two of us have simply resulted to cannibalism ;)[/quote:1b6jq7ip] Yes, I think you may be right . . . ;) And let's leave it at that. :) view post

posted 07 Sep 2005, 07:09 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNonmen who and what are they? by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Deerow":1mbghiyk]What would a robot be to someone who has no concept of advance mechanics? Well, it would be a "non-man."[/quote:1mbghiyk] I think you should explain how robots could suffer from bioweapons, namely the Womb-Plague Scott mentioned. Or why robots should have a "womb" in the first place. Or why a robot should bleed and go crazy like the Nonman in the Prologue of tDtCB does. Really, this notion has nothing to support it, and in the framework of the story is rather silly really. Then there is also the fact that Earwa was meant to be a pre-scientific world, and the arrival of the Inchoroi was a disruption that is still being healed. There would have been no know-how to manufacture mechanisms of this complexity, and who would have manufactured them in the first place? In short, not much of an idea, and I'm prepared to bet it'll become clear pretty soon, if not with TTT then in the next book. It would also be useful if the original poster would add more than that criptic one-liner, so we could have some idea of what he was trying to say and why . . . view post

posted 08 Sep 2005, 05:09 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNonmen who and what are they? by White Lord, Subdidact

I should also add that they are sorcerers too. And sorcery is inextricably bound to flesh and blood. Not to mention that Scott has said what the Nonmen represent: fallen elves. So far as I know, Tolkien didn't have robotic elves in his books . . . ;) About the Inchoroi: well, who knows if in our own universe there are no other societies/species living like the Earwans do, and other more technically advanced ones living like the Inchoroi seemed to do. There is nothing off-putting in combining the two. After all, even if the Inchoroi were technically advanced, after all these millennia they have obviously been absorbed into Earwa, and I guess they had to give up on their technological advantages a long time ago, so that now they are legitimate players in what is going on, with no more potential advantages than anyone else. And this is a long shot from postulating some robotic/mechanical societies on Earwa, prior or posterior to the Inchoroi's arrival. The only ones who had the means were the Inchoroi, and we all know they chose to go down another road. Quite the opposite in fact. It'll always be easier to manufacture biological rather than mechanical "life". view post

posted 08 Sep 2005, 06:09 in Off-Topic DiscussionNow Reading... by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="AjDeath":11t7ag45][...] since the New Harry Potter came out. I can't stomach it. And no, I didn't read it, and I never want to or will.[/quote:11t7ag45] With you on this one.. Never have, never will . . . :) view post

posted 09 Sep 2005, 04:09 in Author Q & AThe Mystery of the Winged Elephant by White Lord, Subdidact

:o :D view post

posted 09 Sep 2005, 04:09 in Author Q & AQuestion about the ending of TWP *Spoiler Warning* by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Twayleph":30sficcj]The ripping-his-own-heart passage was a metaphore; since attaining/discovering TTT, Khellus feels that all things are his and that he is everywhere; in that perspective, Serwë's heart is his own heart. Whether that's true or not, we'll see in TTT :)[/quote:30sficcj] Right you are. This question came up before, and I don't know how people miss the reference to Serwe's and not Kellhus's heart . . . view post

posted 06 Feb 2006, 10:02 in Author Q & AAlso read TTT and puzzled - Warning : spoilers ! by White Lord, Subdidact

If I'm not mistaken, Scott mentioned that the Chorae Hoard was kept in the city of Sakarpus, and since that city survived the Apocalypse, it's likely it is still there and waiting for whatever is to happen . . . :) view post

posted 06 Feb 2006, 15:02 in Author Q & AAlso read TTT and puzzled - Warning : spoilers ! by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Twayleph":bzl9o251]Oh and I also remember another question I forgot to ask; in the Glossary it says that Atrithau was founded on "anarcane" ground (I think it also says somewhere that's the reason it survived the Apocalypse). However I don't know what that word means and I haven't found it in the dictionnary; do you know what that would mean? Or maybe it's a typo, but I'm almost sure I saw it more than once...[/quote:bzl9o251] Anarcane should be the opposite of "arcane", which in our context means sorcery. So anarcane ground should make it impossible for sorcery to function (an effect similar to that of Chorae?). view post

posted 23 Feb 2006, 10:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi Origins/Aims by White Lord, Subdidact

Let me preface this by saying that I haven't yet read TTT (still waiting for it to be delivered...) but I did proofread the Glossary, so I'm not totally clueless :) . . . Anyway, someone asked if Sranc gave birth during the No-God's first manifestation (and I take it that the implication is that if they had souls, even they would have been barren), and I think this is answered in the entry on Sranc in the Glossary. It basically states that pregnant Sranc females were observed fighting alongside the males or something to that effect. Now, that should answer the question of whether they could procreate or not. I don't think however that this automatically means they don't have souls. Couldn't the No-God's effect on births be selective? And what of the Scylvendi, were they also barren during the Apocalypse, and would it have made sense for them to fight for the No-God under those circumstances? Was this mentioned anywhere in TTT? view post

posted 23 Feb 2006, 11:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by White Lord, Subdidact

We already had a similar discussion [url=](link)[/url:3j3liij6] more than half a year before TTT came out. I think it still holds real well, despite all recent additions in what we know. An interesting read in retrospect. (BTW anor277 was inflexible even then, and even then I didn't really see what was so wrong or impossible with this whole idea of sorcerous skin-spies). view post

posted 24 Feb 2006, 16:02 in The Thousandfold ThoughtA poll on souls by White Lord, Subdidact

I'd go with option 2: They can gain souls in very special circumstances. Just a gut feeling, nothing I can substantiate with text evidence . . . view post

posted 07 Mar 2006, 22:03 in Author Q & AMen v. Nonmen by White Lord, Subdidact

You make several mistaken assumptions in your post. First of all, there were Eannorean sorcerers, even before the migrations. Check one of the old threads in this forum. Scott told us about the clashes between the Old Prophets and the Shamans, i.e. Prophets who used sorcery. The Eannoreans also invaded Earwa using Chorae, which were given them by the Inchoroi. view post

posted 08 Mar 2006, 17:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSchools of the 3 seas by White Lord, Subdidact

Well, actually I think zarathustra may be referring to something Scott said in answer to my question of there being any Gnostic School hiding in what had been the Ancient North. He said there was one. So that excludes any known School from the Three Seas. On the other hand, I'm a bit confused by his answer, because, even though we knew then of the Mangaecca and Golgotterath, I think he could have been referring to it. If not, well, that's interesting too . . . a third Gnostic School, doing who knows what up North. Then there's the question of the Knights of Tryse . . . Mithfanion thinks they might be reinstituted in the Three Seas, but from the wording of that entry in the Glossary, it's possible they actually survived and are still in hiding. After all, some of the witnesses of the Celmomian Prophecy were Knights of Tryse . . . :) view post

posted 08 Mar 2006, 19:03 in Author Q & AMen v. Nonmen by White Lord, Subdidact

This is what Scott had to say in my question thread: [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":1phreyx1]So far, the deepest the histories go is to the Fall, which is to say, the arrival of the Inchoroi in the last Age of Nonmen. At the moment, that feels plenty deep, and it precedes the Tusk by quite a few thousand years. I haven't been looking at the history of Earwa so much from the standpoint of an 'absolute observer,' as from from the standpoint of what is known or thought to be known at the time of the Holy War. This isn't a rule that I adhere to, just a tendency I seem to have largely followed. There are things from the time of the Tusk I do want to flesh out, such as the conflict between the Old Prophets and the Shamans, the question of how the surviving Inchoroi brought Chorae, the 'Tears of God' to the Five Tribes before the Breaking of the Gates, and the Cuno-Halaroi Wars (Halaroi is the Nonman name for Men). Stuff like that.[/quote:1phreyx1] view post

posted 08 Mar 2006, 21:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSchools of the 3 seas by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Entropic_existence":348diovd]Yea, for some reason WL I have a feeling Scott at the time was refering to the Mangaecca when talking about another Gnostic School in the Ancient North. We sort of knew about them already but we didn't really have alot of details I don't think, at least until we had access to the TTT glossary.[/quote:348diovd] Yes, but come to think of it, when I asked that question, I also mentioned how some cities in the North survived the Apocalypse, how it is a very big place, full of places where a group of surviving Gnostic sorcerers could hide and keep a School going. Also we pretty much knew from the start that the Consult had sprung from the Mangaecca and that it used the Gnosis. So I don't think he misinterpreted my question, in fact he accompanied his answer with a wink... Who knows... :) You will admit that even the Consult would find it hard to have direct control/knowledge of everything taking place over half a continent... And then, how many forgotten Nonman mansions are out there as a convenient hideout? Then you have the entries in the Glossary, talking about the destruction of Kuniuri and its people, who were either "scattered or enslaved"... The scattered part makes you think. Also, while I'm at it, I wanted to put forward an idea: When thinking of how the Dunyain originally found Ishual, i.e. escaping from the Sranc, going in the direction of the Demua mountains, and Injor-Niyas, it came to me they could have been deliberately looking for protection from the Nonmen. Now if more human groups did manage to get there, there could be a significant human element in Injor-Niyas at present. This also has to do with the rebirth of the Nonmen. Basically, they can reproduce with humans, after all the Anasurimbor are the result of such a union. My thinking is that they could have tried that long ago, and in twenty centuries there could be a Nonman population, both male and female, with minimal human genes... This is certainly possible, but my question to you all is how likely is it? Do you think the Nonmen would have considered this approach? view post

posted 08 Mar 2006, 21:03 in Author Q & AMen v. Nonmen by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Entropic_existence":14m6ewge]Thanks WL, I tried searching for that thread but didn't find it.[/quote:14m6ewge] No prob... Fact is I tried using the search engine too, with no results (it doesn't seem to work that well lately...). Thankfully I knew exactly where the quote was... view post

posted 15 Mar 2006, 09:03 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by White Lord, Subdidact

Since we know nothing of what makes a "bastard" (or if there ever [i:2zesyzt5]are[/i:2zesyzt5] any bastards in the noble houses) in the various Earwic societies, I think it's a bit premature to talk of illegitimate Anasurimbors (especially by applying our own real-world standards). In fact, text evidence would go against considering any child of Kellhus a bastard. The line of Anasurimbor at the time of the Apocalypse could also be considered a bastard line since Anasurimbor Sanna-Jephera (direct ancestor of Celmomas) was a bastard offspring of Omindalea's rape by a Nonman. Then the unnamed Anasurimbor in the prologue to TDtCB is presented as the son of a concubine, and considers himself a prince, which hardly tallies with someone who has no rights or is shunned. My guess is that all it takes for someone to inherit in Earwa is the consent of the head of the House, provided the "bastard" does have the right blood. view post

posted 16 Mar 2006, 00:03 in Author Q & AMen v. Nonmen by White Lord, Subdidact

Been very busy lately preparing exams... still am for that matter (does this ever end... :cry:), which is why I haven't been very active here. But you can expect me and my questions back with a vengeance in a bit... :twisted: 8) view post

posted 03 May 2006, 03:05 in The Warrior ProphetNilnameshi by White Lord, Subdidact

I don't exactly understand what you mean by "pagans". That is a totally out-of-place term to use here. Even the Inrithi are pagans to Fanim eyes. The Nilnameshi worship the same gods of the Inrithi cultic religions (the Kiunnat) with their own twist added to them. (Check the Glossary entry on Nilnamesh for more details.) Nilnameshi seem to be very self-absorbed with their esotic cults, and are not generally expansionist, but due to high population density they are also a hard nut to crack, since even the Kianene have not been able to conquer them. As to the ethnic composition of Nilnamesh, Scott told me it is inhabited by both Ketyai (majority) and Satyothi, with possibly a good number of people being darker-skinned than your average Ketyai due to a Satyothi admixture. As to your question on the lack of Asians, well there are the Xiuhianni, but they are still living in Eanna, and they would be your equivalent of Asians. BTW, Scott said that no one race had a one-on-one correspondence with real-world ones, so, for instance, the Ketyai run the gamut from the peoples of the Indian subcontinent to the Middle East, while the Norsirai that of the Caucasian peoples, and the Xiuhianni should cover most of the Far East. view post

Re: Su'juroit, Cû'jara-Cinmoi and Cûnuroi Witch-Kings posted 25 Aug 2006, 19:08 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSu'juroit, Cû'jara-Cinmoi and Cûnuroi Witch-Kings by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Catalyst":1gwifeno]1. Who is Su'juroit?[/quote:1gwifeno] Well, Su'juroit was the great Cûnuroi Witch-King, and here what we know about him stops (although we can speculate, which I'll do later... :)). [quote:1gwifeno]2. What exactly is the significance of a Cûnuroi Witch-King?[/quote:1gwifeno] Cûnuroi society was/is divided in castes. The Ishroi were the warriors/rulers. So the fact that a Quya (sorcerer caste) could rule would be indicated by the term Witch-King. In fact, Scott said that the Nonmen have no rule forbidding sorcery, so I guess even an Ishroi with the gift of sorcery that was in line for a throne would be called a Witch-King. I'm also a bit unclear about the precedence of castes between the Quya and the Ishroi. I attribute some sort of priestly/religious role to the Quya as well (although that is simply my impression, not something that is shown by the books at this point), so that would put them above the Ishroi. There is also the fact that since in those times there were no Chorae, nothing could have stopped the Quya from dominating everyone else. The fact that there were kings, and not only Witch-Kings would indicate some sort of compromise or an accepted role for sorcery in that society. Still, I would say that these Witch-Kings, if there were more than one of them, were remarkable sorcerers who went outside their role of priests/councilors and chose to use the Gnosis as the basis of their secular rule. [quote:1gwifeno]3. What is the legend of the 'Third Phrase' and Su'juroit?[/quote:1gwifeno] Well, the 'Third Phrase' refers to the third string (in this case a second inutteral string) that is used when working sorcery. If you followed what Achamian said when teaching Kellhus the Gnosis, even working with two strings (one utteral and one inutteral) is incredibly difficult. And we all know what Kellhus is, what he can do, and more importantly what he will be able to do. The fact that Su'juroit possessed the ability to use a second inutteral string (the only one in the entire course of Nonman history, that we know of; and Nonmen being a cut or two above your average Man as well...) suggests that he was every bit as remarkable as Kellhus is likely to be. And who knows what Su'juroit did, and in what way he impacted Nonman society. (I suspect we might find out in later books, if the connection between Su'juroit and Kellhus is more than guesswork on my part...) I could even suggest that he had a role to play in his time that might be similar to that of Kellhus in this Age; after all, is pure intelligence everything one needs to use the Third Phrase, and perhaps go beyond it, or are other requirements necessary...? [quote:1gwifeno]Thanks alot![/quote:1gwifeno] You're welcome, provided my post [i:1gwifeno]did[/i:1gwifeno] help in any way... I haven't opened the books in some time and may be a bit rusty to participate in discussions just now... :) view post

posted 02 Oct 2006, 19:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by White Lord, Subdidact

What exactly makes you think that the term 'Old Name' applies only to the Inchoroi? If you check the Glossary, it says that it is a term used for all the [i:1cv4tzv1]original[/i:1cv4tzv1] members of the Consult. And what is the Consult? According to that same Glossary, it is a cabal of magi and generals, which includes the Inchoroi, but also Mekeritrig, Shaeonanra and possibly many others. After all, there [i:1cv4tzv1]was[/i:1cv4tzv1] no Consult before the Mangaecca became [i:1cv4tzv1]it[/i:1cv4tzv1], so it makes no sense to use the term only for the Inchoroi. view post

posted 08 Oct 2006, 14:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":38dwxmhu]So does anyone know where Shaeonanra is mentioned? And if anyone has the link on the nature of damnation, that'd be sweet![/quote:38dwxmhu] Well, Shaeonanra (or Shauriatas) is mentioned in the Glossary at the end of TTT, and also, [i:38dwxmhu]en passant[/i:38dwxmhu], in the story proper. There you can read all about him [b:38dwxmhu]re[/b:38dwxmhu]descovering a means of avoiding damnation by soul-trapping sorceries. About the Damnation issue, well I know there are a couple of posts here where Scott has a bit to say on the issue, but it's also been dealt with in the books, so that you could easily get the picture from there as well. Basically, if your actions are displeasing to the Gods, as soon as you die (i.e. your soul takes the road to the Outside) you are liable to spend an eternity of torture as a guest of any one God (or demon) in the Outside. Obviously, if you have good reasons to believe this is what will happen to you, you will do your best to avoid your soul going to the Outside in the first place. This is what Shauriatas did, and all other Consult members do the same: they use Tekne-made shells to transfer their souls to, so they avoid passage to the Outside. Since this is a bit risky (you never know when someone will kill you, without you having time to do soul transfer), they decided to act on knowledge the Inchoroi obtained during their researches on the Outside: by removing a sufficient number of souled creatures (in this case Men and Nonmen) from the world, they would make the Gods powerless to affect Earwa, so even if they did die, the only thing that could happen to them would be Oblivion, not Damnation. This is basically what drives the Consult and what caused the Apocalypse. As to what Shauriatas is doing right now, I guess he is still busily sniffing around the Ark (it is said he went mad studying it) looking to unearth new secrets. If I'm not mistaken he's mentioned as one of the principal culprits for everything the Consult has been able to rediscover about the Tekne. view post

posted 08 Oct 2006, 14:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by White Lord, Subdidact

Here is something by Scott on the issue of Damnation: [quote="Cu'jara Cinmoi":2ttiwrhr]They [the Scylvendi] don't believe they have any afterlife. You have to remember too, that just as most religious people have no consistent, systematic understanding of 'noumenal world' that brackets the mundane, neither do the Scylvendi, nor the Inrithi, though the latter have many scholarly accounts of what awaits them. Given this overarching indeterminacy, there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies. Certain acts attract the interest of certain agencies. One can, and most Inrithi do, plead to redeemed ancestors to intercede on their behalf, but most give themselves over to some God. Doing so, however, puts their souls entirely into play, and the more sketchy one's life is, the more liable one is to be 'poached' by the demonic, and to live out eternity in everlasting torment. I could go on, but most of all this will be covered in the encyclopaedic glossary in TTT.[/quote:2ttiwrhr] view post

posted 09 Oct 2006, 01:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtInchoroi and Sorcerer Goals. Call for theories... by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":3cfl6ht8]Thanks White Lord, for both those posts! The second post with Scott's words was especially enlightening, specifically the bit about "certain acts" attracting the attention of outside agencies.[/quote:3cfl6ht8] No problem... always glad to be of help... :) [quote="Incu-Pacifico":3cfl6ht8]I guess one such act is the act of sorcery - we know certain kinds of socery (Daimos) *definitely* attracts unwanted attention. But it would seem *any* kind of sorcery results in damnation, though no mention is made of what happens to non-Daimotic sorcerers. What is the nature of their damnation?[/quote:3cfl6ht8] You see, I'm not so sure that quite [i:3cfl6ht8]any[/i:3cfl6ht8] use of sorcery results in Damnation. This is simply what most people have thought ever since the Chronicle of the Tusk was composed. What counts, in my opinion, are the actions sorcerers commit [i:3cfl6ht8]after[/i:3cfl6ht8] they convince themselves they are damned [i:3cfl6ht8]a priori[/i:3cfl6ht8]. If you believe yourself damned, and that you will suffer for all eternity after you die, no matter what you do, for the simple reason that you're a practicing sorcerer, that certainly won't work towards bringing out your better self... :) We must also consider that the Nonmen didn't hold this belief, and also that Kellhus rescinded the Tusk law regarding sorcery (and I think he was right in this, divine inspiration or no...). [quote="Incu-Pacifico":3cfl6ht8]This also begs the question of what the Inchoroi were doing to attract the attention of Outside agencies that would cause the Inchoroi people to want to seal themsevles away.[/quote:3cfl6ht8] Well, they were being true to their nature, (or what they think to be their nature), something of which you have seen throughout the books. Ultimately Damnation or Redemption are dictated by people's [i:3cfl6ht8]actions[/i:3cfl6ht8], and the Inchoroi sealed their fate by doing "what they must" to quote Aurang... :) view post

Re: Is Kellus the No-God? End of TTT and being in the whirlw posted 14 Oct 2006, 16:10 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellus the No-God? End of TTT and being in the whirlwind. by White Lord, Subdidact

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":lszthz6t]The end of TTT has to make you wonder. Kellus in the whirlwind of debris (to protect himself from the chorae) sounds suspciously like our buddy the No-God and HIS whirlwind. Is the No God's Carapace in fact this swirling shower of debris?[/quote:lszthz6t] I'm sure the parallel is intentional. I don't know (yet) what Scott is trying to do though... :( The whirlwhind was not the No-God's Carapace. It was a [i:lszthz6t]nimil[/i:lszthz6t] sarcophagus (that was encrusted with Chorae as an additional protection). That's why they had to use the Heron Spear to crack it. The No-God has nothing to fear from sorcery. In fact, if it is true that even the sulphurous godlings (and the gods?) can be harmed by Chorae, it seems Mog might kick their ass as well... [quote="Incu-Pacifico":lszthz6t]Also at one point, Kellus reconsidered the solidity of the Principle of Before and After (at Mengedda, I believe). Could the Consult Tekne research (during the Investitures) in fact be Time Travel research? Were they somehow able to get Kellus to come back in time and through his great power and mastery of Gnosis cause the Apocolypse?[/quote:lszthz6t] I think this is unlikely. They didn't have (and don't have) the knowledge or the equipment for something like that (time travel). Then I also doubt that Kellhus is/was the No-God. I remember someone posting a theory where the No-God is Earwa's world-consciousness, traumatized and awakened by the crash of the Inchoroi ark. I happen to like the idea. Especially since it could mean that the No-God, in interaction with Kellhus, might turn out to be the Consult's worst nightmare... Or maybe not. What do I know? :) On the issue of time, it is possible that more than one concept of time could be at work simultaneously. One operating on the plane of the commonplace, and then what we might call 'sacral time'. Or it could mean that time is more of an illusion than a constant. Consider this quote from TWP. It certainly provides a clue as to what Time might be, or at least what I called sacral time: [quote="Teres Ansansius, The City of Men":lszthz6t]The Poet will yield up his stylus only when the Geometer can explain how Life can at once be a point and a line. How can all time, all creation, come to the now? Make no mistake: this moment, the instant of this very breath, is the frail thread from which all creation hangs. That men dare to be thoughtless . . .[/quote:lszthz6t] If the present can affect both past and future, then Time might well be an illusion, something fluid and mutable. Not in the sense that someone might move through time, but that actions of world-importance might shape a different History for both past and future. Here's a bit I poached from Wikipedia that might answer as an explanation for what time in Earwa is: [quote:lszthz6t]Ralph Waldo Emerson considers time as presentness, where past and future are but our present projections (of our memory, hope, etc.). For Emerson, time needs a qualitative measurement rather than a quantitative one.[/quote:lszthz6t] [quote="Incu-Pacifico":lszthz6t]The question remains, what reason would he want this? Well Kellus accused his father of wanting to bring about the Apocolypse. Or more accurately, he said that his father would *have* to bring about the Apocolypse in order to master his circumstances. Now is Kellus stuck in the same trap as his father? Food for thought...[/quote:lszthz6t] Well, TTT explained in detail why Moenghus would have to do something like that. Kellhus might be immune because of his mission. After all, do we know that he isn't acting according to what the Outside feels is necessary? Or that at some point Kellhus will not supplant the Outside? There's a lot we don't really know, to be making predictions. In fact, I think the reasons and motivations of the Consult, the Outside etc. might be simply one layer of revelation, the real meat lying a bit deeper. After all, it's too convenient for Scott to reveal the "facts of life" in what was nothing but an introductory trilogy. The real story is still to come. And since whether the Consult will win or lose, or whether their convictions (or those of their enemies for that matter) are true all hang in the balance, we can't say much with certainty. At least not on the metaphysics. In fact, it seems the more Scott tells us, the more still remains to be told, and the least certainties you have. It sure plays havoc with trying to make predictions. :) view post

posted 21 Aug 2007, 12:08 in Author Q & APopulation by White Lord, Subdidact

I think Scott already answered this a good while ago. From what I can remember the Three Seas have an overall population of around eighty millions, much like the Ancient North before the Apocalypse. The major cities' populations would be around two hundred thousand, the largest of them being Carythusal, with a population close to a million (on festival days) which would mean a stable population of at least half a million. view post


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