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posts by Athjeari Peralogue | joined 29 May 2008 | 63

Re: Kellhus, his divinity, and his "good guy" status. posted 03 Jun 2008, 04:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtKellhus, his divinity, and his "good guy" status. by Athjeari, Peralogue

I think this is a sensative topic. Kellhus is motivated by his goal. If his goal meant that he would have to be evil then he most definitely would be. Using understandings of our civilizations philosophy Kenneth Burke makes the argument that the "negative" or what is perceived as evil is a creation of man. In nature there is no "good" or "evil" there just "is". It is man that puts the meaning behind what is evil or good. So you could argue that Kellhus just "is" and it's his goal that determines whether he is good or evil. I think one could argue that Kellhus is playing the "good guy" because it is the Shortest Path. If the Shortest Path was for him to be a killer, we know he wouldn't hesitate. Kellhus demonstrated this by killing the boy watching Cnaiur bathe while Kellhus and Serwe were lying down. If Kellhus were a good guy he surely wouldn't have killed the boy. I also don't feel that Kellhus has lost control of Legion. Showing Achamian his "true" face was necessary at that point to dominate the circumstance. The argument about prophecy is quite odd too. Kellhus follows the principle of before and after. What come before dictates future events. Kellhus has been using prophecy since he entered civilization. He uses the Probability Trance to figure out what future events will occur by what has already occurred. I thought it funny that he acts so different around Moe and you can tell that he is baiting him constantly, I believe the book even states something similar. Kellhus tells Moe what Moe wants to hear but that isn't necessarily what Kellhus was truly believing. With regards to his prophecy to Coithus Saubon he merely used the Probability Trance. The probabilites were numerous and Kellhus wasn't exactly sure what was going to happen but he used that as an opportunity to get rid of an enemy as well, in essence to walk the Shortest Path view post

Re: Rome posted 03 Jun 2008, 04:06 in Off-Topic DiscussionRome by Athjeari, Peralogue

Have you guys watched both seasons of Rome? I'm up for discussing it if anyone wants too. I absolutely loved the series! view post

Re: What Comes Before Determines What Comes After... posted 03 Jun 2008, 04:06 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]What Comes Before Determines What Comes After... by Athjeari, Peralogue

Could concept, and I have thought about this as well. The stories are quite paralled, so much so that it's hard not to think about it. I think that Bakker paralled them for a reason, either to support the Dunyain philosophy, or turn it on it's head. Only time can tell This might have already been discussed on this board but forgive me I'm new. I had always wondered why Kellhus was the Harbinger. If you look at the facts Moenghus was back in civilization first. He was the first Anasurimbor to return. Should he not be seen as the Harbinger? And one thing that I always wondered about the Celmomas prophecy was where does it ever say that an Anasurimbor will defeat the second Apocalypse? He merely says that a decendant of his will return at the end of the world. I also feel that the Mandate is assuming this means that an Anasurimbor will save the world but it might not be so. I think it might be safe to argue that Seswatha had more influence in stopping the first apocalypse than an Anasurimbor. view post

Re: Maithanet posted 03 Jun 2008, 04:06 in The Judging EyeMaithanet by Athjeari, Peralogue

I cannot imagine that Maithanet with get in the way of Kellhus. If anything, I speculate that he will only aid him in converting the entire world to one religion so they are all allied to fight the second apocalypse. (Isn't that part of what TTT was about, or did I miss understand this?) What better way to control the world than to be an Aspect-Emperor and half brother to the religious leader of the time. Maithanet could plant all sorts of directives and thoughts into his followers especially since Kellhus is seen as a prophet. I also think he might be better used to help convert as many followers instead of fighting the great ordeal. Maithanet gets others to fight for his cause, he does not need to go fight himself. As for who runs the Empire. POTENTIAL SPOILERS I GUESS............... In a passage I read (maybe on wikipedia) it talked about how 20 years had passed. Kellhus is off fighting his war. Akka is figuring out the Dunyain and trying to find them, and Esmi was ruling the Empire and trying to control her murderous children (of Kellhus). I have no idea how legit this synopsis is but it made sense to me. Maybe you guys have seen or heard otherwise. (I liked the thought of Kellhus's children being murderous, it sounds as if Kellhus had no interest in raising the children and left them to their demise upon which they discover they are somewhat superior to humans and begin a reign of terror) view post

The Dunyain philosophy posted 03 Jun 2008, 04:06 in Author Q & AThe Dunyain philosophy by Athjeari, Peralogue

Mr. Bakker and anyone else with insight, I have been wondering for a long time whether or not you have taken influence for the Dunyain philosophy from the Stoics. There are several parallels that exist such as the "worshipping" of Logos. The idea of controlling emotions and not succumbing to passions. Even the concept of Before and After was believed by Stoics in the concept of the Theory of Causal Determinism. I am just wondering because I have been studying Stoicism as of late and I am truly intrigued by the concepts. If you have any more insight on the topic I'd love to hear about it, or any other types of philosophical theories/beliefs you used while writing your books. (I am a Speech COMM student, but we discuss philosophy quite a lot especially Ancient Greek philosophy) I'm just interested on the concepts that influenced your writing I guess. view post

Re: Top 10 list of things to do while waiting on Great Ordeal. posted 07 Jun 2008, 05:06 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Top 10 list of things to do while waiting on Great Ordeal. by Athjeari, Peralogue

You can be sure that I will be working on, At least one more re-read of the PoN series Reading Neuropath when it is released and the rest of my top ten will be devoted to - trying to attain the Absolute; total mastering of the legion within, or the darkness that comes before. view post

Re: Rome posted 07 Jun 2008, 05:06 in Off-Topic DiscussionRome by Athjeari, Peralogue

Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head Harrol. Both my friend, who I introduced to the series, and I thought the second season was rushed. If HBO was more willing to fund Rome, they could have at least made another season without making it seem drawn out. So much happens so quickly that it feels as if they decided to finish the season instead of make the season great. (I still liked the second season, but it was not as good as the first) view post

Re: Nostalgia: Fav part of the trilogy? posted 07 Jun 2008, 18:06 in The Thousandfold ThoughtNostalgia: Fav part of the trilogy? by Athjeari, Peralogue

There have been some very memorable moments accounted for. Some that I particularly like that haven't been mentioned Anytime Kellhus remembers his training with a Pragma. (TDTCB & more specifically the one in WP right before he single handedly defends the Swazond standard) The part where Kellhus defends the standard itself. The dialogue between Kellhus and Moenghus at the end of TTT was spectacular. Mekeretrig (sp?) scenes, especially on the wall I really like reading about Athjeari. I was hoping he would survive the Holy War. I love the scene about Athjeari's Pilgrimage! I also liked his death scene Cnaiur going into bloodlust mode at the Battle of Kiyuth. I still remember the goosebumps it gave me reading, "WHO?" "WHO SHALL KILL ME?" "I AM THE MOST VIOLENT OF MEN!" etc etc AH, I almost forgot, when Inrau remembers the words and rips out the Consult's heart near the beginning of TDTCB view post

Re: Who would you cast in a Prince of Nothing movie? posted 08 Jun 2008, 07:06 in General DiscusssionWho would you cast in a Prince of Nothing movie? by Athjeari, Peralogue

I'm confused. A lot of people seem to picture Akka as black. Where do you get this from in the descriptions from the books. If anything I have always pictured Akka as a Greek/Phoenician. I'm not opposed to the idea of a black Akka, it's just that I don't remember ever reading anything that hinted at Akka being that dark of skin. I have always had trouble picturing Cnaiur. So many things about him make me picture Euro/Asian barbarains - i.e. Gauls, Germanic tribes, even Huns etc. etc. At the same time I also feel that picturing him as a Native American would also fit. The sinewed look, the long black straight hair, the Scylvendi lifestyle itself. What ethnicity do you all imagine for Cnaiur??? I have always pictured Proyas, Saubon and the others quite young. Most of the royalty are not rulers of their respected territories yet. They are still princes. I've never imagined most of them a day older than 30. So I would say it needs to be young actors. Kellhus would be the HARDEST character to cast. He is taller than most men. He has long blonde hair (I believe it's wavy too), blue eyes and is in peak physical condition(remember he holds Cnaiur over a cliff with ONE ARM!). He has a beard and is from the north. Nordic characteristics if you ask me, he sounds like a menacing nord but yet with a body type that screams agility. That body type is hard to come by, plus he has to be beautiful. Not to mention he has to have a voice that can melt people where they stand. Esmi I have always pictured as someone far more....elegant?? than Monica Belucci. Don't get me wrong, Belucci is good looking but Esmi has always seemed to have more class to me, even when she was a whore in Sumna. view post

Availability?? posted 08 Jun 2008, 07:06 in NeuropathAvailability?? by Athjeari, Peralogue

I work at a Barnes and Noble and I can't even find this book in our system. Is this a limited release title or what? Anyone have some more information on this title? view post

Re: Logos is theft posted 08 Jun 2008, 08:06 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Athjeari, Peralogue

Ahh I have noticed a lot of people equating Kellhus's actions to what is good or bad - morally right or wrong or compassionate Remember that all of these things have been created by man. Kellhus does not (using the example from above about the friend with a sick mother) look at the situation as if he'd be a dick if he didn't spend time with the friend. Look at it from this point of view. What is your goal? Several communications specialists believe that all communication is goal oriented. What is your goal in hanging out with that friend who needs you? (I am willing to bet the reason you did it wasn't so much for them as it was for you, don't think this is heartless it's just the way human beings are and your goals could be good beneficial goals tool; they don't have to be self centered goals but they are YOUR goals) You may have wanted to show that you care about the person or that you can be counted on, or something along those lines. The point being that Kellhus follows the shortest path. He doesn't think about making friendships closer he thinks, "if I make this person believe we are close friends than I will be that much closer to my goal." -- he does not think of anything negatively - negativity is a man made construction. What I feel is funny is that in doing so he tends to look like a good guy. The reason being is that he knows if he burns a lot of bridges things will be harder for him. Why kill people and make yourself suspect when you can befriend and make them willing want to help you? It would not make sense to NOT try and befriend people even though he isn't really their friends. Man I could go on and on about this topic but I need to stop because I am truly getting lost in my thoughts and am having trouble typing them coherently. If need be I'll wait for a response to elaborate further. view post

Re: Cnaiur Badass Quote! posted 09 Jul 2008, 04:07 in The Thousandfold ThoughtCnaiur Badass Quote! by Athjeari, Peralogue

That is a great quote. Cnaiur has basically given up his life but as you've said he's going to take as many of them down with him as he possibly can. Cnaiur has some of the best battle speeches/cries that I have ever read in a book. When I read them I get chills because they sound so frackin menacing (nice use of the BSG phrase topic creator, I love that show) view post

Re: Cnaiur's sexuality-why is the topic so damn popular?? posted 09 Jul 2008, 05:07 in General DiscusssionCnaiur's sexuality-why is the topic so damn popular?? by Athjeari, Peralogue

Nice discussion/argument so far. I think it's quite simple why people are so interested in Cnaiur's sexuality. The man is the stereotypical alpha male! He is a warrior. According to our social norms warriors are usually not thought of to be gay. However, Cnaiur seems to be gay or at least bisexual. This conflicts with what is generally viewed as acceptable male behavior. Another reason why I think the topic is so talked about is because Cnaiur doesn't show emotion throughout most of the series. He does say that he loves one of his wives, but he still has no trouble leaving her and soon forgets about her. Suddenly in TTT Cnaiur runs into Moenghus and we finally see Cnaiur's fragile, emotional side come out. You can tell that Cnaiur really does/did love Moenghus. We even find out that Mo had a cute nickname for Cnaiur, Naiu. This is interesting because a man was able to make this other alpha male man become human and express emotion. These are two reasons why I feel that Cnaiur's sexuality is so discussed. It is controversial to say the least. At the end of TTT I almost felt sorry for Cnaiur because he was so angry with himself at falling in love with another man. Throughout the series I never felt sorry for Cnaiur up until that moment when he sees Moenghus again. It made me feel weird, feeling sorry for Cnaiur, because he is such a strong character. view post

Re: Cnaiur-is he dead? posted 05 Sep 2008, 18:09 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Cnaiur-is he dead? by Athjeari, Peralogue

As much as I enjoy Cnaiur, I too would be upset if he lived into the Aspect-Emperor. The end scene with Cnaiur was great. I always assumed that he slit his own throat too. view post

Any up-dates? posted 05 Sep 2008, 18:09 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Any up-dates? by Athjeari, Peralogue

I haven't been to the forum in a couple months, so I apologize if this topic has been asked recently. Does anyone have any news on the upcoming books? Do we have a new information on them? view post

Artwork for PoN? posted 20 Oct 2008, 23:10 in General DiscusssionArtwork for PoN? by Athjeari, Peralogue

Does anyone know of any links or websites that have artwork inspired by The Prince of Nothing series? view post

Re: Why was Khellus.... posted 07 Nov 2008, 09:11 in Author Q & AWhy was Khellus.... by Athjeari, Peralogue

This is one of my favorite parts of the books. When you read the fight between Kellhus and the Nonman, read how Kellhus is interpreting events. Kellhus felt himself pressed from a reign of might blows that pushed him back, and back. "But Kellhus could sense the moment --- although it was far, far thinner than it had been with the Sranc." "He climbed into that narrow instant, and the unearthly blade fell farther, and farther from its mark; bit deeper into empty air. Then Kellhus's own sword was scoring the dark figure, clipping and prodding the armor, tattering the frim cloak. But he could draw no blood." When you read this passage it is clear that Kellhus isn't exactly having the easiest time with the Nonman. He fought off a hoard of Sranc and yet this one Nonman was giving him difficulty, and his opportunity to walk the Shortest Path was far, far thinner than it had been while fighting off a hoard of Sranc. Plus it took Kellhus a while to get the best of him. For awhile Kellhus can't even draw blood. And since Kellhus ran away, I'd argue that Kellhus didn't even win, but actually lost the fight. The Nonman was laughing at the end of the fight. I don't feel that the Nonman was ever truly worried about it's life. Kellhus might have bested him in martial prowess, but that doesn't mean the Nonman would be beat in a sorcerous dispute. Hasn't it been stated that the Nonmen burn with the Mark so badly that supposedly getting near a "Chorae" will turn them to dust? (something along those lines anyway) I think the sorcery the Nonmen wield is unlike any we've seen (until Kellhus does two inutterals with an utteral at the end of TTT) view post

Re: The Judging Eye posted 07 Nov 2008, 09:11 in The Judging EyeThe Judging Eye by Athjeari, Peralogue

Is this book really coming out on January 22nd, 2009? Hot damn! If that's true, I can't express how amped I am. I thought it was going to be a late 2009 release! Anyword on this being released earlier in certain countries like Canada or anything? view post

Re: The metaphysics of Eärwa - some thoughts posted 10 Nov 2008, 08:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe metaphysics of Eärwa - some thoughts by Athjeari, Peralogue

Great posts Thorsten. You've certainly done your homework, both within the world of Earwa and from a historical/philosophical aspect within our own world. Time will only tell if this is the direction Bakker will take.....unless you apply the principles of causality. :mrgreen: view post

Re: The metaphysics of Eärwa - some thoughts posted 24 Nov 2008, 18:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe metaphysics of Eärwa - some thoughts by Athjeari, Peralogue

I wanted to post something with regards to Perseus search engine. I've played with it a little, and I have found some words that are not matching up with definitions I've been taught at my University. "Kairos" is one of the words. I was taught that "Kairos" has everything to do with time, but not in the same reference as cronos. Kairos refers to the "most opportune time". We use it within the speech communication discipline. The defintion given for ethos is also not congruent with what I've been taught. The engine doesn't recognize the word enthymeme, or even demos. I'm not saying that the entire Perseus Engine is no good, but I would check the defintions with other sources because I found to many words that were defined differently to me. view post

Re: The Judging Eye posted 24 Nov 2008, 18:11 in The Judging EyeThe Judging Eye by Athjeari, Peralogue

Has anyone heard about how many ARC's are being released by the publisher? I work at a bookstore and often times we get advanced reader copies (we got one for A Feast for Crows, which was great!) and I'm wondering if I'll get a chance to read this. As of today I haven't seen it anywhere within the store, but if anyone else knows some information about how many were released, I might be able to track a copy down. view post

Aspect Emperor Book 2? posted 25 Nov 2008, 08:11 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Aspect Emperor Book 2? by Athjeari, Peralogue

So in anticipation for the release of The Judging Eye, I found myself searching for any news on the second book in the series. I thought the title of the second book was "The Shortest Path" but I floated over to Wikipedia and it says that Bakker has changed the name to "The White-Luck Warrior" Anyone know anything about this or what the White-Luck Warrior could be in reference to? The wikipedia page was last updated on the 27th of Oct. 2008. Either way I thought the title "The Shortest Path" was a much better title than the "The White-Luck Warrior" view post

Re: What if I told you, that nothing is real? posted 25 Nov 2008, 09:11 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat if I told you, that nothing is real? by Athjeari, Peralogue

This is not my area of expertise, but didn't Descartes focus on what is real and what is not real? A lot of his work went towards determining this and has been widely accepted throughout the world even now. Descartes (pronounced De-Cart) is the well known philosopher that came up with the concept of, "I think therefore I am" Descartes' theories go far deeper than this one quote but even the one quote debunks the idea. If we think and are real, than what we perceive to be real is reality. At least to us. (If you feel otherwise let me know, but how can you argue against it?) I think a great argument [i:22a9lepq]against[/i:22a9lepq] your point is according to you than humans themselves or our concept of self might not be real. Descartes argues otherwise. To argue against what we perceive as real you would first have to address whether or not that the "self" is real. I admit I didn't read all the other posts and this might not be what the topic is pertaining to. (I also admit that I need to brush up on my Descartes but I do know that the focus of Descartes' Ontology (or what is real) is matter. Descartes' Epistemology (how we learn about the world) focused on observation and experimentation. Descartes, even though he didn't know it when he lived, can be classified as a Positivist, which many many people are even today. What is real? What can be observed, touched, experimented and replicated) view post

Re: What if I told you, that nothing is real? posted 25 Nov 2008, 09:11 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat if I told you, that nothing is real? by Athjeari, Peralogue

Platonistic philosophy would also argue against what you stated about the idea/concepts of good/evil, love/hate, courage,trust, etc. We as humans have a common idea as to what all these things are. This relates to Idealism to the fullest degree. Simply put according to you we could argue what we call a chair is not actually a chair. To anyone that has no reference to what we have agreed upon as a chair they might view it as something totally different, but since the[b:26ma5i4e] idea [/b:26ma5i4e]of what the chair is/does has been agreed upon the chair is a chair. (if this makes no sense let me know and I'll elaborate further) The idea is the most solid form of what is real, it is even more real than matter itself. This is the Ontology according to Idealism The things you have listed above could be considered real just because you were able to list them and all of us know immediately what you are referring to without you having to give definitions and descriptions of what each item is. view post

Re: The metaphysics of Eärwa - some thoughts posted 25 Nov 2008, 09:11 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe metaphysics of Eärwa - some thoughts by Athjeari, Peralogue

Ahh, that makes sense. I am obviously not skilled at spelling in greek. I understood the concept of Perseus as being a meta-search engine. But since I was familiar with other defintions I wasn't sure if it wasn't accounting for all definitions. (I wasn't attempting to totally disprove the engine, merely that certain definitions were excluded) view post

Re: Ishual posted 29 Nov 2008, 07:11 in General DiscusssionIshual by Athjeari, Peralogue

I think if you were to check the encyclopedic glossary you might find the answer to this. I have loaned my copy of TTT out to a friend, so I can't check it right now but I'm sure someone on the board can look it up. I want to say that you're right. In the prologue for TDtCB, it says Ishual succumbed at the height of the Apocalypse, but in the next couple sentences the prologue states it's the secret refuge of the Kuniuric High Kings. It makes no reference to Nonmen. As I said earlier, check in the back of TTT. view post

Re: What if I told you, that nothing is real? posted 06 Dec 2008, 04:12 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat if I told you, that nothing is real? by Athjeari, Peralogue

I would have to say that abolishing an idea is not easy because you would have to abolish it from the minds of everyone else too. As for matter having no idea associated with it; we typically formulate an idea for all matter as soon as we discover the exist of matter. Think about it, do you ever look at something, or find something new and simply state, "Oh that's matter". Even then you give it an idea because you have defined the matter as matter. You tend to try and discover it's purpose and you in most cases will name it. There is nothing that just "is". We postulate ideas for everything that we discover. view post

Consensus so far? posted 23 Jan 2009, 17:01 in The Judging EyeConsensus so far? by Athjeari, Peralogue

Can anyone that has read the book give me a spoiler free consensus of The Judging Eye? I don't know if I can get the book before Feb. 5th and I'm dying to hear some feedback. view post

Re: Consensus so far? posted 24 Feb 2009, 07:02 in The Judging EyeConsensus so far? by Athjeari, Peralogue

I finally have the book, and I can hardly put it down! I am about 1/3 of the way through the book and I agree it has been well worth the wait (although compared to George R.R. Martin it wasn't much of a wait). Ahhh I have so many questions, but I am forcing myself to finish the book before I look at the other threads. I don't want to accidentally ruin anything before I read it in the book. Consensus so far? Great book view post

Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 02 Mar 2009, 06:03 in The Judging EyeKellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- by Athjeari, Peralogue

I don't think that Curethan has crossed a line; he has simply made his point. I happen to agree with him. Kellhus is certainly capable of crossing into the Outside, and the book mentions that the heads tied to his belt are in fact demons, aka Ciphrang. Sorweel calls Kellhus a Ciphrang....a demon....or vice versa, a demon.....Ciphrang. Why is it so unbelievable to some that Kellhus has two demon heads? Where would his body go when he teleports if not the outside? We know from TTT that Ciphrang reside within the Outside. As for the White Luck.... maybe I read this part wrong but isn't Psatma the White-Luck? During the "baptism" doesn't she regenerate and become young and beautiful once again? I thought her old age and wrinkles were passed on to the man she was riding and Psatma took the "White-Luck" into her body? Was I drunk or something when reading this, if this is totally foreign to you all let me know and I'll reread the part. view post

Re: *Spoilers* Favourite new character. posted 02 Mar 2009, 06:03 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* Favourite new character. by Athjeari, Peralogue

Incariol, Cleric, was the most intriguing character in The Judging Eye. The Nonman demonstrated a ridiculuous ability to avoid dying, and not just with his sorcery. His past is a mystery, yet it seems to be intertwined with the events unfolding. His actual name might not even be Incariol. I am more concerned that Incariol might be an agent of evil though. Too many things occurred under the mountain that should have killed, yet Incariol walks out unscathed? It seems to odd. How did he live through the Wight possession? I am hoping beyond hope that Incariol is a "good" character though, and I am dying to read more about him and the other existing Nonmen! view post

Dunyain machinations posted 03 Mar 2009, 02:03 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by Athjeari, Peralogue

Okay, so I am beginning to wonder if the Dunyain might have a hand in the greater events of Earwa. Everything is conditioned is it not? Sending out Kellhus to kill Moenghus would clearly have implications that I am sure the Dunyain had to have thought about. Why send out Kellhus to kill Moenghus, in a sense they were just replacing the threat with another threat, no? I think the Pragma's and the Dunyain are exerting influence from behind their walls of Ishual. What do you guys think? By sending Kellhus into the world, the Dunyain had to know that Kellhus would make an impact on the world. I don't think that Kellhus will be able to bring down the Consult and the Inchoroi without more help, and I think the Dunyain will have a larger part in the later books. Any thoughts on this? view post

Re: Dunyain machinations posted 03 Mar 2009, 09:03 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by Athjeari, Peralogue

Is it not true that Kellhus has been totally conditioned his entire life? Who is conditioning him though? Who is making the decisions for the Dunyain (or who is in control, leading, or dominating them)? How is having Kellhus running around in Earwa any less dangerous to their seclusion than it was when Moenghus was alive? Moenghus was sent out to see if a Sranc party that got too close to Ishual was aware of them. What if this was the Dunyains way to begin their interaction with Earwa on a larger scale? Dunyain are prepared to condition themselves over 2000 years, it seems perfectly plausible that they would take lifetimes to effectively engage society. Could it not be argued that the Dunyain know of the Consult, or at least the first Apocalypse? Were the Dunyain not refugees from the first Apocalypse, and we know that this information was taught to Kellhus because he interrupts his Pragma during the training exercise to control the Legion by saying as much. Dunyain logic seems so funny to me because they are taught to dominate. What happens within Ishual where everyone would be Dunyain and trying to dominate circumstance? In my opinion the Dunyain have to play a larger role within the series; I would be sorely disappointed if they didn't. I thought I remember reading somewhere that Bakker said more Dunyain would be involved in the later installments, but if I am wrong someone please correct me. view post

Re: Spoiler: Kelmonas' Voice posted 03 Mar 2009, 09:03 in The Judging EyeSpoiler: Kelmonas' Voice by Athjeari, Peralogue

I am inclined to believe that Kel's voice is either the intellect that was suppose to be within his brother, or that it is a mental disorder. I say it could be his brother because of the three year staring contest, and the impact of breaking it might have had something to do with Samarmas being handicap. Also, the reference of "What took you so long to kill me." when just about every other thing that the voice says deals only with Kel. Now with Samarmas killed, I think you could argue that the twins have become "whole". I also make the argument for the sociopath, crazy kid. The voice could be totally in his head, and telling him, "The Andiamene Heights have sinned, it's time to cleanse the empire Kel." And the fact that he hears the voice say "What took you so long to kill me," makes a compelling argument for insanity as well because, as I stated above, it is the only time the voice is not referring to something with Kel (at least that I remember), so the voice could be telling Kel what Kel what's to hear. The fact that Kellhus and Esmi's first child is the only one that appears to be "normal" also says something too. Kel is not a healthy person, half-dunyain, or whatever you want to call him. All the other children have had some sort of debilitating defect, accept their first son. Why would Kel be any different? Speaking of the children what are people's thoughts on the boy (I forgot his name) that is locked in the room? What made him become the person he is today? Could it be argued that he "saw the face of God, and now knows madness?" It seems odd that he was at one time "normal" by Kellhus' childrens status, and then became the person he his in TJE. view post

Re: Spoiler: Kelmonas' Voice posted 06 Mar 2009, 05:03 in The Judging EyeSpoiler: Kelmonas' Voice by Athjeari, Peralogue

Keep in mind, I said the first born appeared to be normal. We also have to assume it's possible to have a normal half Dunyain, otherwise how do you explain Maithanet? This could start a new topic, but what does everyone think about the son locked in his room? Also, if Kel is ruling the empire, how does this escape his uncle and sister's Dunyain eye? view post

Re: Consensus so far? posted 30 Mar 2009, 09:03 in The Judging EyeConsensus so far? by Athjeari, Peralogue

I agree with Cil-Aujas being WAY better than the mines of Moria. Cil-Aujas did make the book, and I hope that we get to see more of Lord Kosoter, and especially Incariol. Don't forget that Bakker has options for more interesting POV's too. Moenghus (Cnaiur's son) has been shown and has already been labeled as mad. I am hoping to gain more insight into him already! Don't forget about Kellhus or Kellhus's first born son either, both of them could make for some really great POV's. I think that Sorweel is going to become a much more important character, and hopefully he'll be more fleshed out or at least develop into a great character. I didn't like reading about him so much in TJE, but he has a lot of potential. I also think it would be insightful and spectacular to gain a Nonman POV. I want to know what goes through the mind of an Erratic like Incariol. That's how I feel about the book, it has laid the grounds for so much potential that I am incredibly excited for the next book. view post

Re: Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 01 Apr 2009, 04:04 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by Athjeari, Peralogue

Hmm...I did not interpret Kellhus' conversation with Akka in the same way. It has been awhile since I've read TTT, but I looked at it as the human soul in everyone as representations of the Outside manifested in the world. That each person's soul is linked to the outside and this links everyone to one another (because we are all linked to the outside) I did not take it that there was an Oversoul (which would suggest that each person is one and the same, yes?) Kellhus does not necessarily have to be right about his assumptions of the outside either. When he told Akka this, he had not teleported into the outside yet. It is possible for Kellhus to be wrong, and I think Akka even felt that his example displeased him. Basically, I was under the impression that Kellhus said that part of the God is within each human being, since the soul is connected to the Outside, and what makes sorcerers is that the soul has not forgotten the language of the God. Otherwise, technically everyone would be able to be a sorcerer if they were all part of the one Oversoul, couldn't they? view post

Re: The Doomed Ordeal? posted 01 Apr 2009, 04:04 in The Judging EyeThe Doomed Ordeal? by Athjeari, Peralogue

Good post, but I always assumed that this is the reason Kellhus had children. Kellhus knows that he might not be able to destroy Golgotterath within his lifetime, hence his sons, which will have sons and so on. As this massive train of over 300,000 people slowly crawls North, surely outposts will arise and soon more cities will become inhabited. I'm also assuming that Kellhus will retake some strongholds that belonged to Kuniuri, and this will make it so they can have a base of operations. From this they can set up more legitimate supply lines and rest troops and bring in reserves. This is a big feat, but going by sea would not necessarily make it easier. If the Ordeal were to go by sea, the besiegers would become the besieged. All of the Sranc in the wilderness could encircle the besiegers of Golgotterath. The Great Ordeal has to kill the Sranc as they go, there wouldn't be another way. Don't forget that for 20 years people have been hunting Sranc down too. This will most definitely be a war of attrition, and taking back ancient strongholds will be key to the success. I don't think Kellhus can march up to Golgotterath and go for a killing blow immediately. I would like to think that Kellhus is smart enough to realize this too. view post

Re: Kellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- posted 10 Apr 2009, 19:04 in The Judging EyeKellhus vs Whiteluck -<SPOILERS>- by Athjeari, Peralogue

Sorweel better play a larger part within the series at some point. I honestly did not like reading his sections very much; he whined, and moped way too much for my taste, not to mention that he just isn't very interesting at all. Sorweel is by far one of the most indistinct characters that has ever gotten face time in Bakker. I hope to God that he becomes more of a factor, but I do not think that he is the White Luck Warrior. If for some terrible reason Sorweel is the WLW, he better start putting things in motion because I don't want to read more of the same type of behavior from him in the follow-up books. Too much happened with the Old Crone down south for me to believe that Sorweel is the WLW I think the WLW is going to be a force to be reckoned within the empire. I feel what happened with Sorweel was used to show that the mother God has influence over humans and perceptions. How can Kellhus tackle power that is not of this world? I don't know if he can, I think Sorweel was used as a window for us to see the trouble that is brewing for Kellhus. view post

Harbinger posted 10 Apr 2009, 19:04 in The Judging EyeHarbinger by Athjeari, Peralogue

I have been thinking about this ever since we were introduced to the Mandate prophecy about the Anasurimbor. Everyone seems to feel that Kellhus is the Harbinger, and most individuals think that this means he will be the one to save the world. For some reason they call him a harbinger and yet think, just because of the prophecy, that he will save the world. If he is indeed a harbinger, than it only implies that he is coming as a forerunner to the apocalypse. It doesn't necessarily mean that he will save the world. Kellhus' coming could merely be a sign that the apocalypse is near, not that he will prevent the apocalypse. Celmomas never says that an Anasurimbor will save the world, he says that an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world. (in fact we have no reason to believe that the world can even be saved!) So, after stating that, does anyone feel that the WLW could be the one to deliver mankind from the brink of apocalypse? As of now the WLW has been portrayed as a somewhat dubious person/creation that is going to reek havoc on the world, but if the WLW does have divine power from a God, would that not make the individual good? view post

Re: Twice Read Tales posted 15 Apr 2009, 06:04 in The Judging EyeTwice Read Tales by Athjeari, Peralogue

I agree with so much of what you have said. I have even debated about conducting a content analysis of PON for a research project in Graduate School. These books apply real world religion, philosophy, and logic. What you state in the first post of this topic is what I often tell individuals when they ask about the series. Oddly enough this turns people away at times. They don't feel that a fantasy novel can speak to the real world, but Bakker writes his fantasy from a real world perspective. Bakker uses his knowledge of the real world and applies it within his fantasy. This is exactly why I think some people are turned away from Bakker. The books can be insightful, but you have to be willing to put forth effort for the insight to come; this requires thought. view post

Re: Harbinger posted 15 Apr 2009, 06:04 in The Judging EyeHarbinger by Athjeari, Peralogue

I think you could argue that Celmomas did not build Ishual as a place for Anasurimbor to lay and hide in the weeds until they saw fit to leave. Ishual was a last ditch attempt to keep humanity alive, not a haven for Anasurimbors to regroup, and the Dunyain were not in the original plans for Ishual. I don't think Celmomas had precognition. I think he knew that his bastard lived in Ishual and that he had a good chance to survive the apocalypse because Ishual was hidden. He made the claim because he had a reason to believe that someone from his line would survive. Like I said, he makes no claim as the how the Anasurimbor will return, nor does he say the purpose of the return. Celmomas simply states that an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world. view post

Re: An interesting thought... posted 12 Jun 2009, 02:06 in The Judging EyeAn interesting thought... by Athjeari, Peralogue

In an abstract way Kellhus is behind all that has going on within the Yatwer. None of what is going on within the sect of Yatwer would be occuring without the presence of Kellhus. Now, does this mean that Kellhus is using the Yatwer sect as a tool? I doubt it, but it is too difficult to determine this without any POV's from Kellhus. We have literally no idea what he has planned. I'd like to think that he has more going on than marching his massive army North. view post

Re: No-God theory, or another theory posted 12 Jun 2009, 02:06 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]No-God theory, or another theory by Athjeari, Peralogue

I feel that Cnaiur died at the end of TTT. Even if he didn't die the Cnaiur we knew and loved would be no more. He would be around sixty five years old in the JE. I'm pretty sure that Cnaiur would be feeling the affects of aging. It appears that the No-God is totally constructed, but constructed out of what? view post

Re: Esme's Womb Corrupted? *Spoilers* posted 18 Jul 2009, 17:07 in The Judging EyeEsme's Womb Corrupted? *Spoilers* by Athjeari, Peralogue

I believe the issue lies with Kellhus's seed, not Esmi's womb. Esmi did bare a normal child with Kellhus. Their first son is quite normal, even though he has no emotion. As was posted before, Kellhus has tried coupling with other woman and the results have been the same. Kellhus is the problem here. To the post that mentioned Cnaiur's sister, she wasn't killed at birth for having defects (I don't think anyway, I don't recall this occurring). The reason she was killed was the child had blonde hair and so it became clear that Cnaiur's mother coupled with the slave Moenghus. Kellhus needs a Dunyain woman to truly have a child that can take over his empire. (Also, don't forget that Moenghus was able to father a fairly normal child. Maithanet is not defective, at least not in a way that we can tell) Dunyain can couple with common women; whether or not the child will be normal is kind of a shot in the dark. view post

This is a bit off topic... posted 12 Oct 2009, 01:10 in The Judging EyeThis is a bit off topic... by Athjeari, Peralogue

but this is the most active board, so I figure the chances I'll get a response are best if I post here. I have a question, I am looking for the part within the The Prince of Nothing in which Achamian is talking to a young Proyas and Achamian is talking to him about questioning things. Proyas says something along the lines, "So are you saying the Tusk is lying to us?" Achamian replies, "I don't know." And it goes on to say that Achamian was asked to leave Proyas' household the very next day. Does anyone know which book I could find this part in? If you could give a page number that would be splendid, but even just the book title would be a big help right now. TO keep this topic more in line with the board, does anyone have any idea when a paperback version of The Judging Eye is planned to be released? view post

Re: This is a bit off topic... posted 12 Oct 2009, 18:10 in The Judging EyeThis is a bit off topic... by Athjeari, Peralogue

anor277, thank you for the response but I already know it's from The Prince of Nothing. I was hoping that someone would be able to tell me the specific book. Is it from, TDTCB, TWP, or TTT? I am trying to look for this specific section for a class I am teaching. I suppose I needed to be more clear about the paper back question. Yes, I was referring to the trade paper back, and I am really excited that you already have seen the trade paper back. view post

Re: This is a bit off topic... posted 17 Oct 2009, 19:10 in The Judging EyeThis is a bit off topic... by Athjeari, Peralogue

Thanks for the help guys. I was able to find the passage. I love that part. view post

Re: I am a devout follower of Kellhus posted 04 Dec 2009, 08:12 in The Judging EyeI am a devout follower of Kellhus by Athjeari, Peralogue

Kellhus does recognize his emotions, you see this at the beginning of TDTCB at the beginning, and when he watches Cnaiur rape Serwe. Something tugs at him, and this is made known to the reader. Also, don't forget about when he confronts Aurang through Esmi. Kellhus is overwhelmed by emotion for just a few moments. When Kellhus says that he is something more I don't think it is in regards to emotions, rather Kellhus has been enlightened by the concepts of the Gods and the Outside through sorcery. The Dunyain do not fundamentally believe in Gods or Sorcery (although you could liken Logos to their God, which I think was Bakker's intent). Also, keep in mind that Moenghus was trying to dominate circumstance during the meeting and one path that he tried was trying to revert Kellhus to his previous mission and way of life back at Ishual. Moenghus believed that a Dunyain would see the issue from his perspective and hoped to dominate Kellhus at that moment by making him see the issue from his perspective. It obviously didn't work. view post

Re: I am a devout follower of Kellhus posted 04 Dec 2009, 08:12 in The Judging EyeI am a devout follower of Kellhus by Athjeari, Peralogue

Thorsten, you propose an interesting perspective on Dunyain. Keep in mind that Kellhus has no interest in feeling at all. He cares not for feeling good about anything, he is simply trying to maximize his efficiency like you said, but by doing so he is simply trying to further attain the Absolute. I've always thought this a funny concept within the Dunyain; they are bound by the same problems that they see within world born men yet they don't recognize it. The Dunyain are as troubled with tradition and cultural stamps as any other type of person in Earwa This is seen by their rejection of Sorcery. How much closer could the Dunyain be to obtaining the Absolute if they would have recognized Sorcery from the beginning of their isolation? Kellhus recognizes at the end of TTT that his entire path has been conditioned by Moenghus, hence he realizes that he has simply been a product of circumstance. I still think it is Kellhus' mission/goal to obtain the Absolute. view post

Re: Skin-Spy Concept posted 04 Dec 2009, 08:12 in The Warrior ProphetSkin-Spy Concept by Athjeari, Peralogue

I would like to see this art as well. Is there any place that I can still find it? view post

Re: About the Dunyain... posted 04 Dec 2009, 09:12 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAbout the Dunyain... by Athjeari, Peralogue

But we have to assume that the Dunyain would know that similar experiences would bombard Kellhus as soon as he left Ishual. If Moenghus left and learned sorcery, why wouldn't Kellhus? The Pragma would have realized this too. By sending Kellhus they would be moving away from their goal of the Absolute because they wouldn't be self moving souls. Moenghus would be acting upon them. By sending Kellhus, the Pragma must have ulterior motives. I believe the Dunyain know and have more control over what is going on than we know. Kellhus is merely an instrument of the Dunyain in order for the Dunyain to become closer to obtaining the absolute. It also becomes nearly impossible to speculate, accurately, without knowing more of the Dunyain way of life, especially their power structure or organization. view post

The White-Luck Warrior (Book #2) posted 04 Dec 2009, 09:12 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The White-Luck Warrior (Book #2) by Athjeari, Peralogue

Does anyone know of any news on this book?? I'm trying to keep the message board going by posting a bit, but I am genuinely curious about whether or not anyone has heard anything regarding the second book in the Aspect Emperor series. view post

A research paper on A Prince of Nothing posted 04 Dec 2009, 09:12 in Author Q & AA research paper on A Prince of Nothing by Athjeari, Peralogue

I am presenting a legitimate research paper (possibly my Masters thesis) at the Rhetoric Society of America (RSA) on The Prince of Nothing series, and I would love to get in contact with R. Scott Bakker so I could at least send my work to him when I am done. Does he ever check the message board anymore? Does anyone know a good way to get in contact with him? I realize I could try sending a letter to his publisher, but I wouldn't want to send them my paper for several reasons. Any help with this would be appreciated. view post

The rhetoric of TPoN posted 04 Dec 2009, 09:12 in The Judging EyeThe rhetoric of TPoN by Athjeari, Peralogue

I am presenting a legitimate research paper (possibly my Masters thesis) at the Rhetoric Society of America (RSA) on The Prince of Nothing series, and I would love to get in contact with R. Scott Bakker so I could at least send my work to him when I am done. Does he ever check the message board anymore? Does anyone know a good way to get in contact with him? I realize I could try sending a letter to his publisher, but I wouldn't want to send them my paper for several reasons. Any help with this would be appreciated. (I realize this is quite off topic, but I am looking for any help that I can get) view post

The rhetoric of TPoN posted 04 Dec 2009, 09:12 in The Darkness That Comes BeforeThe rhetoric of TPoN by Athjeari, Peralogue

I am presenting a legitimate research paper (possibly my Masters thesis) at the Rhetoric Society of America (RSA) on The Prince of Nothing series, and I would love to get in contact with R. Scott Bakker so I could at least send my work to him when I am done. Does he ever check the message board anymore? Does anyone know a good way to get in contact with him? I realize I could try sending a letter to his publisher, but I wouldn't want to send them my paper for several reasons. Any help with this would be appreciated. Once again, I apologize for the off topic nature of this post, but I am looking for any help I can get. view post

Re: Complaint to author posted 04 Dec 2009, 09:12 in General DiscusssionComplaint to author by Athjeari, Peralogue

If you did this for only 6 hours than you wouldn't have even gotten to the beginning(or end if you will) of the proposition. You need to do this for 7 hours (or days) The Logos is without beginning or end 1 hr. for the entire proposition + 1 hour without "end" + 1 hour without "or" + 1 hour without "beginning" + 1 hour without "without" + 1 hour without "is" + 1 hour without "Logos" Obviously you didn't complete this long enough to be able to see/experience Legion. And what makes you think it would work to substitute hours for days? If one were to keep a meditated trance for 7 days, I would almost guarantee that the person would experience something. (Not to mention that you would be 7 days without food). My problem with it is that I don't believe a person would be able to stay up for 7 straight days in a meditated trance. The most I've ever stayed up in one sitting has been about 41 hours straight and I was sooo freaking exhausted. Although I wasn't able to fall asleep as easily as I thought when I tried to go to bed (oddly enough I couldn't stop my thought processes, they were on overdrive). view post

Re: Sorcery and its parallels in our world posted 12 Jan 2010, 07:01 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSorcery and its parallels in our world by Athjeari, Peralogue

I too have thought of the power of sorcery in a way that correlates with our world. This being said, I am a student/teacher of communication studies and I study rhetoric and theory. I believed that words had power prior to reading PON, but I like the way in which words are used within the universe of PON to generate power/control. With most characters in the series, the most potent tool used to control and gain power is rhetoric. Granted, Cnaiur and Kellhus demonstrate incredible martial prowess (which could honestly be viewed as a form of rhetoric), but Kellhus, and Cnaiur, use words in order to dominate and control others for the most part. Look at the way Cnaiur culled Serwe into submission by whispering to her. Look at the way Cnaiur rallied his men in there desperate attempt to hold the city towards the end of TTT. Another example is Cnaiur talking to the caste nobles in the Andiamine Heights. I shouldn't even have to give examples of Kellhus, but the scene with Leweth, the trapper, is one of my favorite scenes. Kellhus admits he uses words Leweth calls cruel solely to better possess him, but any instance that Kellhus utters words can be seen as using rhetoric for power and control. I like to look at these characters: Kellhus, Cnaiur, Conphas (Conphas talks about the importance of kairos, which is Greek for referring to waiting for the correct moment or timing, which I love), Esmenet (She is great because Esmenet is a women and watching her rise to power through the use of words, and sex, is wonderful in a world dominated by men), Maithanet, and last but not least Moenghus (the dialogue in TTT with Kellhus is spectacular, and I often look at the exchange as a legitimate fight for control with two Dunyain trying to anticipate and direct the other Dunyain solely with the use of words (until Kellhus stabs Moenghus of course). I enjoy the use of words by these characters more so than looking at the sorcerers, but I have definitely thought about exactly what you stated regarding the use of words by sorcerers. This brings me to the sorcerers of the Three Seas. Sorcerers wield unimaginable power through the use of words. The book shows men pulling walls down solely with words. I also think it is important to bring up that for the most part Bakker refers to sorcerers as "singing" and this, I think, is unique and powerful as well with regards to the meaning behind the words and how they are spoken (delivery if you would, some individuals are FAR better at delivery and know exactly how to speak to instill emotions and provoke action from people. As a student of rhetoric and communication studies, I like to think that words DO possess this power within our world, as long as you are in the right position or place for your words to be heard, and you speak at the right time (kairos). The examples of CEO's and the President work great, but like I said above, I tend to focus my attention on the actual dialogue within the PON series. view post

Re: Sorcery and its parallels in our world posted 01 Apr 2010, 06:04 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSorcery and its parallels in our world by Athjeari, Peralogue

Madness, That is precisely the point! The inutteral could be seen as what Plato referred to as "the Form" (antirealist), or what Aristotle called the "Universal" (realist) I think that the fact that the schoolmen are able to reek havoc by understanding inutterals gives credence to the argument that they are master communicators and have developed a God like understanding of language. One could then say that the schoolmen are the most skilled of orators, and master rhetoricians because they are able to understand the "Form", or "Universal" of the actual word. If you want to get into the linguistic philosophy we can delve into that because I am a huge fan! view post

Re: White-Luck Warrior posted 14 Oct 2010, 06:10 in The Judging EyeWhite-Luck Warrior by Athjeari, Peralogue

Oh! Finally some more action on this board! Alright, while I think it would be cool if Cnaiur did come back, he was a favorite of mine as well, especially if he wasn't 60 years old, I do think you might have a hard time figuring out why Cnaiur would be resurrected by Yatwer. Cnaiur did not worship the Gods of the Thousand Temples, instead Cnaiur worshipped the No-God, so what might be the reasoning for Yatwer to bring him back to life? Good theory, I like the descriptions idea, but unless Bakker has a good, sound explanation for Cnaiur becoming a tool for Yatwer, I don't know if I can buy it. view post

Re: Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 08 Aug 2011, 01:08 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Athjeari, Peralogue

I had thought it was fairly easy to determine that the assassin Esmenet hired was in fact the White Luck Warrior. The way the assassins behavior and actions were described, it seemed like it was the White Luck to me anyhow (granted, I think it shows the White Luck killing the original, intended assassin). Esmi has absolutely no idea of course, but that's kind of the point. The White Luck is not confined to the principle of before and after rather he sees the continuous stream of time. Events that take place after are apparent to him in the before. IIRC, nobody said anything about the Southern King being a competent battle-commander. If anything, I think it was shown that he was an inferior commander because of the choices being made. Not to mention the stress that was being put on them from constantly having to be on guard. Most of the competent battle-commanders from the South were probably killed during the First Holy War (from the Prince of Nothing). I don't think it's certain that Chanv is burnt Nonmen either. It's referred to as Qirri (sp?) in the book, where do you make the connection to Chanv? Where would Iyokus obtain such a supply of burnt Nonmen? I think it's a bit different. You seem to try and attribute full Dunyain abilities to half Dunyain Maithanet too. He's not as powerful as Kellhus, and he readily admits this at times. The idea of eating the Sranc could be very interesting, but I don't think we have any reason to believe the meat will do anything but offer sustenance. They'll be eating actual meat, not ash. That may be a determining factor on the effectiveness of any power within the meat/body of the Sranc/Nonmen. view post

Re: Kellhus vs Dune posted 12 Sep 2011, 00:09 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus vs Dune by Athjeari, Peralogue

I read Dune for the first time within the last year, and I have to say that I can identify with what you're talking about regarding the presentation of some ideas. However, I've seen a lot of people categorize Dune as a ecological Sci-Fi novel. Obviously a lot of focus of the book was the use/misuse of the planet and how that affected the populations living on Arrakis. I realize this doesn't represent the entirety of the novel, but it was a fairly large part of it. Bakker doesn't worry about stuff like that. Also, keep in mind when Dune was first published, back in 1965. The genre was quite different back then, Dune was something new and special. I also remember reading, at some point, on Bakker's blog, or during an interview that the Dune series was one of the most mind-blowing reading experiences Scott has ever had (I believe he says he was fairly young when he read them). Scott has also said he doesn't have a creative bone in his body, and so borrows from favorites. Clearly, he has borrowed from Herbert to some extent, but I'd also agree that Bakker's much more entertaining and "colourful" to read than Herbert. I haven't actually been able to finish reading Dune Messiah, the story doesn't go anywhere at times. I might still finish it at some point, but Dune Messiah is not high on my immediate reading list. Dune is certainly worth reading, I personally kind of like the movie too (it's a bit odd and crazy but that's David Lynch for you), the way Herbert introduces the Fremen was fantastic and full of intrigue and mystery. I also like how he incorporates Spice in so many cool ways. All in all, Dune is certainly a classic that is worth reading. Personally, I think Bakker is a much better read, but hey it's opinion, man. view post

Re: Kellhus vs Dune posted 13 Sep 2011, 21:09 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus vs Dune by Athjeari, Peralogue

I should have told you that I've watched the made for TV series Children of Dune which, judging from the timeline of events, should probably have been broken in two parts entitle Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. Your post reminded me of that fact because of what you said regarding Paul Atreides. I really dig your comparison of the Cishaurim to this, I honestly didn't even think about that connection. Awesome! I have a feeling it had to influence Bakker a little. I also can't believe I didn't see the relationship between "Spice" and "chanv". You could almost substitute the two terms! The chanv extends life... The chanv expands consciousness... I think given the fact we have so little information given of the Fremen is precisely why I like them so much. I was able to construct a concept of how I wanted to see them. Herbert gives us the pieces, and we get to put them together. If you're familiar with persuasion theory, and Aristotle's concept of an enthymeme, I'd like to compare it to that. We're given premises about the Fremen throughout most of the book, but we're left to make a lot of conclusions on our own. Bakker also does something similar to this with the Nonmen. Particularly in PON, where we only see 2 direct interactions with Nonmen (1st in the prologue of TDtCB, and the 2nd in Akka's first chapter of TTT). Man, I've fallen in love with the Nonmen. I think they're one of the most intriguing aspects about Bakker's world, and I think a main reason is I know so little about them. view post


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